Trachycarpus takil

[Nigel]

Below is a drawing made by Beccari of the trunk of a Trachycarpus takil. It has been claimed that the only true takil is in Rome.

Please vote, which of these two takils is most like Becarris drawing of the real takil.

This is quite a sensative subject, so please look closely and choose wisely !

[John in Andalucia]

Where's the "I can't decide" option? I wouldn't say they both look the same, and both resemble the drawing in parts, IMO. Photo 1 for the emerging leaf and cluster of new fronds, but photo 2 for the arrangement of fronds in general, which are absent from the plant in first photo. There is a wizened appearance to #2 which seems to fit the drawing quite accurately. Is the "swing-o-meter" going to prove anything conclusive, Nigel?

[sarasota alex]

Nigel, I picked photo number 1 and I'll tell you why I did that. While at first glance the second one appears to be more similar, I believe it's only because of the similar distribution of the older fronds. The trunk on Beccari's drawing has woolly fibers nicely wrapping the trunk. This is the case with the palm on the first photo, where the woolly fibers look to be stretching from the weight of the fronds in the similar fashion. What's also similar is that the newest few leaves are upright and are packed at the top of the trunk, and although we cannot really see above the growth point on the second photo, I feel that the new leaves would be looser.

BTW haven't they been suspecting that takil and fortunei are the the same species (much like fortunei and wagnerianus)? The Kew checklist lists them separately though at the moment.

[GTClover]

Where's the "I can't decide" option? I wouldn't say they both look the same, and both resemble the drawing in parts, IMO. Photo 1 for the emerging leaf and cluster of new fronds, but photo 2 for the arrangement of fronds in general, which are absent from the plant in first photo. There is a wizened appearance to #2 which seems to fit the drawing quite accurately. Is the "swing-o-meter" going to prove anything conclusive, Nigel?

I'm with John. How can you tell from comparing the drawing to the photos from the trunk alone, as it seems the main difference involves the removal of old fronds? Also why would one take the word of someone's drawing of a palm in Rome when the T. takil is supposed to be from Himalayan mountains?

Susan

[sarasota alex]

Beccari was the only person who verifiably collected T. takil seeds until a few years ago. The palm in Rome comes from that collection.

[Nigel]

Where's the "I can't decide" option? I wouldn't say they both look the same, and both resemble the drawing in parts, IMO. Photo 1 for the emerging leaf and cluster of new fronds, but photo 2 for the arrangement of fronds in general, which are absent from the plant in first photo. There is a wizened appearance to #2 which seems to fit the drawing quite accurately. Is the "swing-o-meter" going to prove anything conclusive, Nigel?

John, Beccaris drawing was made to illustrate the trunk shape and specifically the fibre arrangement and ligulas.

This is quite detailed and it was this that should be the deciding factor in deciding which if any fits best.

[John in Andalucia]

John, Beccaris drawing was made to illustrate the trunk shape and specifically the fibre arrangement and ligulas.

This is quite detailed and it was this that should be the deciding factor in deciding which if any fits best.

Understood, Nigel, although in light of Alex's post I tend to agree with his comments.

I think the fibre arrangements are difficult to compare without detailed images (by that I mean bigger photos). So too, the trunk shape without clearer side elevation views. I haven't voted yet.

[DoomsDave]

"can't decide from the picture" should be an option.

There needs to be more, particularly blossoms and fruit, and the stems to which they attach.

[JasonD]

"can't decide from the picture" should be an option.

There needs to be more, particularly blossoms and fruit, and the stems to which they attach.

Takil is real. The many "T. takils" that turned out to be T. fortuneis came from seeds of cultivated trees found near where the true species grows. When you see a true takil its trunk fiber and leafbase arrangement resemble T. martianus's more strongly than T. fortunei's, and its leaves are quite distinctive.

This article, along with close observation of a few cultivated specimens in San Francisco and Berkeley, convinced me:

http://www.growingontheedge.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4552&sid=44745fe0fda22a268410cb74ee43935a

[GTClover]

"can't decide from the picture" should be an option.

There needs to be more, particularly blossoms and fruit, and the stems to which they attach.

Takil is real. The many "T. takils" that turned out to be T. fortuneis came from seeds of cultivated trees found near where the true species grows. When you see a true takil its trunk fiber and leafbase arrangement resemble T. martianus's more strongly than T. fortunei's, and its leaves are quite distinctive.

This article, along with close observation of a few cultivated specimens in San Francisco and Berkeley, convinced me:

http://www.growingon...410cb74ee43935a

Jason, those are great photos. I was sold a T. takil as a 1 gal seedling in Jun01 by "Jerry's Jungle" and so that's what I've always thought it was, but now I'm not so sure. It seems palms are fairly often sold as one thing only to find later that it isn't. So I'd like to know what mine is if anyone can tell that is.

Here are some photos of it I have taken recently:

[GTClover]

A couple more:

I thought I had a better one of the backside of the leaf, but I don't. I'll take one tomorrow. To my untrained eye the leaves look very similar to the ones from the wild, but those do seem to have longer petioles. Perhaps that's because they are old or maybe mine is something other than a takil!

Feed back would be great!

Susan

Edited May 29, 2010 by GTClover

[AJQ]

Susan, some more shots of the apex of the trunk showing the ligules from different angles would help.

Also close ups of the hastula, both front and back too.

Does your palm have White sheen to the fronds? Particularly the undersides?

Or are they just a pale or darker green?

I know it is sometimes difficult to capture in different light conditions.

Regards Andy.

[GTClover]

Susan, some more shots of the apex of the trunk showing the ligules from different angles would help.

Also close ups of the hastula, both front and back too.

Does your palm have White sheen to the fronds? Particularly the undersides?

Or are they just a pale or darker green?

I know it is sometimes difficult to capture in different light conditions.

Regards Andy.

Thanks Andy, just got back from a road trip. I'll take some more photos tomorrow!

Susan

[GTClover]

Hi Andy,

Here's a couple more photos. You are correct; it's hard to show the white on the underside. I would call it a white or pale shine though. Not a lot, but definitely whitish and not green.

Hastula

Hastula and top view of ligule?

I'm not really sure whether this shows the ligules, but they are all pretty shriveled.

Do these show enough? I'm happy to take more if it helps the ID.

Thanks,

Susan

Edited June 1, 2010 by GTClover

[AJQ]

Some more photos would be good Susan, different angles/directions of Ligules and a more square on shot /plan view of the top side of the frond showing a good close up of the hastula.

Regards Andy.

Edited June 1, 2010 by AJQ

[Geoff]

I know these are probably not the real things, either, but Lotusland in Santa Barbara has some interesting Trachycarpi they label as takil and they are growing near some fortuneis, and they sure look like a different species- much larger crowns, slower growing, massive inflorescences... The 'takils' are on the left and fortuneis on the right

Here is the pair of interesting 'takils'

[Chris]

Susan, judging by the ligules at the very top of the trunk, in your last photo, I would guess this to be a T. fortunei 'Naini tal'. In the last 100 years there have been only two kinds of takils being sold (except for very rare exceptions). At first they were all small waggies. When Spanner and Gibbons found the trachys that were falsely believed by all to be takil in and around the town of Naini tal, then these T. fortunei 'Naini tal' were believed to be, and therefore sold as, T. takil. It was being called the real takil to distinguish it from the T. wagnerianus sold as takil. T. fortunei 'Naini tal' is most logically what yours is, and it looks like it. The ligules fall off the trunk faster than on regular T. fortunei, so they fool many experts.

I just finished writing an article to Trachycarpus. Here is the part on T. takil (if it is too big, let me know and I will send separate pages):T takil section all pages in spreads.pdf

[Nigel]

I know these are probably not the real things, either, but Lotusland in Santa Barbara has some interesting Trachycarpi they label as takil and they are growing near some fortuneis, and they sure look like a different species- much larger crowns, slower growing, massive inflorescences... The 'takils' are on the left and fortuneis on the right

Jeff, do you have photos of the trunk and fibre at apex. There does seem to be some possible takils there in the USA.

Like Chris says, most likely Naini tals, but there does seem to be a few possible real ones.

[GTClover]

Some more photos would be good Susan, different angles/directions of Ligules and a more square on shot /plan view of the top side of the frond showing a good close up of the hastula.

Regards Andy.

Hi Andy, here's another set.. The 1^st 4 were taken from the top with some focusing on the hastula and others with the focus on the top of the trunk, while rotating the plant. This the best I seem to be able to do with my camera. The next 3 focused mainly on the ligules from the bottom.

Looking at fig 73 & 74 in Chris's monograph (Thank You Chris!), it appears that my palm's trunk and ligules do more closely resemble T. fortunei 'Naini Tal'. I think the ID from Chris also seems more probable given the history. Also since it's living in a pot in VT with little hope having an in-ground life unless I give it away to someone with a more appropriate climate, it's unlikely to have any off-spring where provenance might be important. It's a good looking palm which ever one it is.

Edited June 3, 2010 by GTClover

[GTClover]

[AJQ]

Susan, It is possible.

Apparently on Takil there is a little notch/ligule on the upper part of the hastula as well.

Underneath it is pretty uniform.

Also the fronds are very stiff similar to a waggie.

These are the sort of shots I'm after:

Regards Andy.

Edited June 3, 2010 by AJQ

[Jimhardy]

Nigel

To my eyes all 3 are Takil.

I think another interesting topic would be,how closely related Oreophilus,Manipur and Takil are....

some would say these are basically the same palm and it is interesting that Manipur is said to also grow to 50'.

I am not sure about Oreophilus as far as height goes but there are similarities between these 3

(what Trachys don't have similarities!?)

Anyway,I just can't call them all Takil,

I am curious what others think in regard to this.

[Chris]

Another reason I guess Susan's trachy to be Naini Tal is the leaves. They are more irregularly divided on Naini Tal than on takil, although both are not suppose to be droopy -- but it is a young plant. The hastulas are not a determining factor anymore. It used to be believed to be, but was proven too variable. Otherwise it could be another fortunei. They vary tremendously.

Jim, I have seen the takils growing in northern California and some larger oreophilus. The ligules are distinctly different. Besides leaves, they do not look alike as much as some fortunei and some wagnerianus. I have not seen a mature ukhrulensis (manipur), so cannot comment on the real differences between it and ukhrulensis, but from the pictures, I am sure it is distinct from takil.

[GTClover]

Susan, It is possible.

Apparently on Takil there is a little notch/ligule on the upper part of the hastula as well.

Underneath it is pretty uniform.

Also the fronds are very stiff similar to a waggie.

These are the sort of shots I'm after:

Regards Andy.

I wanted to say "Hyuuh...why didn't you say so! That's a horse of a different color" (Wizard of Oz & 3 Stooges), but since the hastula isn't difinitive I probably don't need to post these. But since I took them in answer to Andy's posted photos, I might as well post them. They clearly (to me) show a notch in the front of the frond, but not on the back. Also the fronds on this palm are very stiff and the blades regular.

Thanks for this discussion! I learned a lot,

Susan

Edited June 3, 2010 by GTClover

[Explorer]

Well I see there is a lot of discussion going on about Trachycarpus takil. Well I have seen them in the wild a month ago! See the article on www.growingontheedge.net

For those whom want to know more of this palm and the area where its found, Narendra Kumar lives in Munsiyari, about 15 km from the palms.

His E-mail: narendrakumar146@gmail.com

Regards,

Alexander Nijman

[Explorer]

P.S.

I have also seen 2 other Tracycarpi in the wild. Trachycarpus martianus near Gorkha, at Gorkha Dubar in Nepal and T. oreophilus at Doi Chiang Dao in Thailand.

And Trachycarpus takil under the Kalamuni Pass, not far from the Temple. Its very strange to me that Tobias Spanner and Martin Gibbons have not visited that same area long ago! And they where very close to the area I have seen the palms and where I took many pictures wich I have placed on the growingontheedge forum.

The reason I had placed them there was because it was the easiest. I tried to place them first on the European Palm Society forum. But that did not work helas.

Regards,

Alexander Nijman

[Explorer]

About the Beccari drawing and the 2 fotos, the second foto looks most like the picture of a young Trachycarpus takil I took in the wild. It was the first time actually I saw T. takil in the flesh. I had never seen it before.

The one in Rome you see on pictures on the internet has a long petticoat like a Washingtonia. In the wild they do not have that. Maybe because in the rainy season the old leavestalks just rot off.

P.S. on youtube you can see some pictures of snow in Munsiyari, at 2200 meters. And also the Kalamuni Temple at the Kalamuni Pass, where the trail starts.

Alexander

[Jimhardy]

Hey Alexander,good to see you over here!

Chris

Thanks for your reply,I guess when the emphasis is but on only one or two aspects of Trachys

their is much similarity,as in the case of the fiber arrangement on Manipur,Oreophilus and "Takil"

I look forward to inspecting my own palms a little closer using some of the guidelines posted in your article

which I enjoyed very much!-any idea when www.ATropicalLook.com will be up and running?

Thanks JIM

[Chris]

I ran out of time, but am working on it again. It will be weeks yet before it is done. I will let you know here on PalmTalk when its up.

[Jimhardy]

Great,some of the writing was a little small(at least how it came up on my computer)in your article.

Hopefully easier to read on this site.

Worth pulling out a magnifying glass for if necessary!

Great article!

[Arnold]

Hello,

two weeks ago I visited the Villa Beccari in Florence, Italy in order to inspect the Trachycarpus palms growing there.

The two very old and tall Palms in front of the Villa are T. fortunei planted by Beccari himself around 1880.

A close-up of the crown reveals that this palm ist T. fortunei.

Odoardo Beccari described the leaves of T. fortunei as follows:

" Leaf blade 3/4 orbicular in outline, 1 m and more across, or 50 - 80 cm long, following the median line from the ligula (hastula) to the end

the central segments; deeply und very irregularly party into manny (40 to 50) linear-ensiform, about 3 cm broad, shoprtly bifid or 2-toothed segments, which have stiff or else drooping ends"

I could identify several other T. fortunei there und to my great delight I also identified one true T. takil in the backyard which most probably even is the T. takil holotype Beccari based his first descripton on in 1905.

"Leaves all permanent as in Tr. fortunei. Petioles about as long as the the blade. Blade 3/4 orbicular, 1 - 1.2 m in diameter, irregularly devided down to about the middle into 45-50 segments, 60-85 cm in length from the top of the petiole (hastula) to the apex of the median segments, the latter stiff and erect, not with drooping tips." (Beccari, O. 1931: Asiatic palms: Corypheae. Ann.Royal Bot. Gard. 13, Calcutta)

"It grows to 10-15 m tall, with a rough trunk covered in fibre from the old leaf bases;covered with very tightly clasping (not ruffled) chestnut brown fibres"

I was able to collect some 10 seeds from the grownd near the trunk und hope some of the will germinate.The fibres are very coarse and not as wooly as the fibres of fortunei. When you touch them you will know the difference. And when you the the palm you can easily distinguish it from T. fortunei.

15 years ago a study made by the University of Florence said that this T. takil died in the severe winter 1984/85 but the palm wich died was a tall Washingtonia robusta which also had a petticoat of dead leaves covering the trunk to the ground. Most palms in the Beccari survived that winter where temperature could have dropped to about -12°C/-13°C in the garden. Washingtonias and Phoenix palms died, fortunei and takil as well as Chamaerops and the old Nannorhops ritchiena survived, as well as the huge Jubaea Chilensis

I took some more pics but cannot post them here in one posting.

Regards,

Arnold

[John Case]

Hello,

two weeks ago I visited the Villa Beccari in Florence, Italy in order to inspect the Trachycarpus palms growing there.

The two very old and tall Palms in front of the Villa are T. fortunei planted by Beccari himself around 1880.

A close-up of the crown reveals that this palm ist T. fortunei.

Odoardo Beccari described the leaves of T. fortunei as follows:

" Leaf blade 3/4 orbicular in outline, 1 m and more across, or 50 - 80 cm long, following the median line from the ligula (hastula) to the end

the central segments; deeply und very irregularly party into manny (40 to 50) linear-ensiform, about 3 cm broad, shoprtly bifid or 2-toothed segments, which have stiff or else drooping ends"

I could identify several other T. fortunei there und to my great delight I also identified one true T. takil in the backyard which most probably even is the T. takil holotype Beccari based his first descripton on in 1905.

"Leaves all permanent as in Tr. fortunei. Petioles about as long as the the blade. Blade 3/4 orbicular, 1 - 1.2 m in diameter, irregularly devided down to about the middle into 45-50 segments, 60-85 cm in length from the top of the petiole (hastula) to the apex of the median segments, the latter stiff and erect, not with drooping tips." (Beccari, O. 1931: Asiatic palms: Corypheae. Ann.Royal Bot. Gard. 13, Calcutta)

"It grows to 10-15 m tall, with a rough trunk covered in fibre from the old leaf bases;covered with very tightly clasping (not ruffled) chestnut brown fibres"

I was able to collect some 10 seeds from the grownd near the trunk und hope some of the will germinate.The fibres are very coarse and not as wooly as the fibres of fortunei. When you touch them you will know the difference. And when you the the palm you can easily distinguish it from T. fortunei.

15 years ago a study made by the University of Florence said that this T. takil died in the severe winter 1984/85 but the palm wich died was a tall Washingtonia robusta which also had a petticoat of dead leaves covering the trunk to the ground. Most palms in the Beccari survived that winter where temperature could have dropped to about -12°C/-13°C in the garden. Washingtonias and Phoenix palms died, fortunei and takil as well as Chamaerops and the old Nannorhops ritchiena survived, as well as the huge Jubaea Chilensis

I took some more pics but cannot post them here in one posting.

Regards,

Arnold

Arnold,

I got 15 seeds from a club member that las year....tried the baggie method, nothing.....threw them into the planter....1 has germinated.....

.

[iamjv]

Arnold, thanks for posting these trachy pics. I hope you'll post the pics of the other palms, i.e. the jub here or in another thread (Beccari Villa). Thanks! Jv

[Arnold]

Hi John, where resp. under which palm were these seeds collected? There is only ONE T. takil in the Beccari Garden which floweres male or hermaphroditcally. I found a few seedlings near that Takil but when I dug one out it turned out to be a seedling of the nearby group of Chamaerops. Could not identify the seedlings at once since a lawn mower had cut them nearly to the ground. But the seed was still on the seedling and it was chamaerops.

JV, the Jubaea there is realy tall. I could collect a lot of seeds. Hundreds of coquitos lay under it on the ground.

Here is a photo of the old Nanorrhops ritchieana in the south facing part of the garden.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/Comreport/IMG_0944.jpg[/img

There is an old photograph showing Odoardo Beccari lying on the lawn in front of the group of Nannorhops which was taken around 1900.

They survived the swevere winter of 1984/85 with damages.

Regards,

Arnold

[Arnold]

Further photos of the holotype T. takil:

"It is easily distinguishable from Trachycarpus fortunei from its infancy by the young plants having the tendency to growing obliquely; by the young trunk being distinctly conical; by the adult trunk covered with very tightly clasping (not ruffled) chestnut brown fibers; by the short, triangular, erect ligulas on the leaf sheaths of the terminal shoot; by the leaves more spreading and those of the previous year being placed just below the last flowering spadices, reflexed, although still alive, by the leaf blade being irregularly divided only down to about the middle; finally by the fruit being more distinctly uniform or considerably broader than high.

The fibres are still chestnut brown even after more than 100 years. They DO NOT fall of easily and the leaf sheathes, leaf bases and even the whole leaves remain permanently on the trunk. "Leaves all permanent as in Tr. fortunei.

It grew obliquely when young:

Regards,

Arnold

[John Case]

Hi John, where resp. under which palm were these seeds collected? There is only ONE T. takil in the Beccari Garden which floweres male or hermaphroditcally. I found a few seedlings near that Takil but when I dug one out it turned out to be a seedling of the nearby group of Chamaerops. Could not identify the seedlings at once since a lawn mower had cut them nearly to the ground. But the seed was still on the seedling and it was chamaerops.

JV, the Jubaea there is realy tall. I could collect a lot of seeds. Hundreds of coquitos lay under it on the ground.

Here is a photo of the old Nanorrhops ritchieana in the south facing part of the garden.

http://img.photobuck...rt/IMG_0944.jpg[/img

There is an old photograph showing Odoardo Beccari lying on the lawn in front of the group of Nannorhops which was taken around 1900.

They survived the swevere winter of 1984/85 with damages.

Regards,

Arnold

These seeds were collected from a private garden in Northern California. The owner claimed that the mother plant is without a doubt a T. takil. She is an experienced collector and has been doing so for a number of years.....certainly longer than I.

Of course, we won't really know until a fan leaf or two is produced on a mature tree or it seeds and the seeds can be compared to other Trachys. I'll see the owner nxt month and try to get photos (at least) of the seeds or maybe some more of them.

Thanks,

John

[Alberto]

Arnold,

I got 15 seeds from a club member that las year....tried the baggie method, nothing.....threw them into the planter....1 has germinated.....

.

How many ridges does this seedling have?

[John Case]

Arnold,

I got 15 seeds from a club member that las year....tried the baggie method, nothing.....threw them into the planter....1 has germinated.....

.

How many ridges does this seedling have?

More than 10 that I can count, possible 15-17...... my eyes will not focus any more than that......the seedling (sprout) is only about 2 1/2 inches tall...

[Nigel]

Of course, we won't really know until a fan leaf or two is produced on a mature tree or it seeds and the seeds can be compared to other Trachys. I'll see the owner nxt month and try to get photos (at least) of the seeds or maybe some more of them.

Thanks,

John

Is very easy to discount takil because the seedling leaf has 2 ridges whereas fortunei, wagnerinaus and all those palms sold as takils that were not takils have 4 ridges on the seedling leaf. If you can photograph the seedling leaf, and it has only 2 ridges , chances are it IS a takil. There does seem to be a few true takils dotted around the USA of flowering age froma batch of seed sold in the early 90,s.

[John Case]

Of course, we won't really know until a fan leaf or two is produced on a mature tree or it seeds and the seeds can be compared to other Trachys. I'll see the owner nxt month and try to get photos (at least) of the seeds or maybe some more of them.

Thanks,

John

Is very easy to discount takil because the seedling leaf has 2 ridges whereas fortunei, wagnerinaus and all those palms sold as takils that were not takils have 4 ridges on the seedling leaf. If you can photograph the seedling leaf, and it has only 2 ridges , chances are it IS a takil. There does seem to be a few true takils dotted around the USA of flowering age froma batch of seed sold in the early 90,s.

Perhaps either I misunderstand the question or cannot count. See the attached photo and judge for yourself...