Trachycarpus takil

[Nigel]

Perhaps either I misunderstand the question or cannot count. See the attached photo and judge for yourself...

It is very hard to see from that photo, but it looks like an inverted 4 ridger to me.

Thats not to say mother is not a takil. The rome takil is producing both 2 and 4 ridgers , some self pollinated ( mature takil inflorescences carry both female and male flowers) and some probably hybrids with fortunei.

[iamjv]

Thanks for the shot of the Jubaea! You can see the freeze damage that was spoken of previously... Jv

[John Case]

Perhaps either I misunderstand the question or cannot count. See the attached photo and judge for yourself...

It is very hard to see from that photo, but it looks like an inverted 4 ridger to me.

Thats not to say mother is not a takil. The rome takil is producing both 2 and 4 ridgers , some self pollinated ( mature takil inflorescences carry both female and male flowers) and some probably hybrids with fortunei.

Here are a couple of photos with some finer detail......You make the call!

[Nigel]

Perhaps either I misunderstand the question or cannot count. See the attached photo and judge for yourself...

It is very hard to see from that photo, but it looks like an inverted 4 ridger to me.

Thats not to say mother is not a takil. The rome takil is producing both 2 and 4 ridgers , some self pollinated ( mature takil inflorescences carry both female and male flowers) and some probably hybrids with fortunei.

Here are a couple of photos with some finer detail......You make the call!

In the second pic at tip of the leaf I can clearly see 4 ridges ,so it is not a pure takil seedling.... sorry.

[John Case]

Perhaps either I misunderstand the question or cannot count. See the attached photo and judge for yourself...

It is very hard to see from that photo, but it looks like an inverted 4 ridger to me.

Thats not to say mother is not a takil. The rome takil is producing both 2 and 4 ridgers , some self pollinated ( mature takil inflorescences carry both female and male flowers) and some probably hybrids with fortunei.

Here are a couple of photos with some finer detail......You make the call!

No apology required. Thanks for your help.

In the second pic at tip of the leaf I can clearly see 4 ridges ,so it is not a pure takil seedling.... sorry.

[Explorer]

Further photos of the holotype T. takil:

"It is easily distinguishable from Trachycarpus fortunei from its infancy by the young plants having the tendency to growing obliquely; by the young trunk being distinctly conical; by the adult trunk covered with very tightly clasping (not ruffled) chestnut brown fibers; by the short, triangular, erect ligulas on the leaf sheaths of the terminal shoot; by the leaves more spreading and those of the previous year being placed just below the last flowering spadices, reflexed, although still alive, by the leaf blade being irregularly divided only down to about the middle; finally by the fruit being more distinctly uniform or considerably broader than high.

The fibres are still chestnut brown even after more than 100 years. They DO NOT fall of easily and the leaf sheathes, leaf bases and even the whole leaves remain permanently on the trunk. "Leaves all permanent as in Tr. fortunei.

It grew obliquely when young:

Regards,

Arnold

Well in the wild Trachycarpus takil looses the old leaves. I have not seen any specimen with a petticoat of old leaves! The leavestalks probably rot of during the wet monsoon season. And in the crown T. takil has that tomentum wich you do not get with T. fortunei. And T. takil leaves are stiffer.

Alexander

[soro]

1. I wonder if the Trachycarus takil is just a variation of T. fortunei or vice versa. It seems like it is nearly impossible to tell these 2 apart. Besides Trachycarpus fortunei is such a variable species and we have thisSan thatSan and waggie and $san and bull***tSan and many more.

2. What is the key to tell them apart? (some seed merchants claim that the takil seed sold until now was not the real thing)? So have they been selling us T. fortunei? How come back then they were not able to tell takil from fortunei (and still claiming the seeds to be takil) and somehow now they can? Come on people buy some real takil seed.

3. Is it possible that T. fortunei was actually imported to China a long time ago along with buddhism? Or perhaps the other way round?

I have got many Trachycarpus "fortunei" and each one is different. One is small and stiffy, another one is large, soft and droopy, another one has twisted hastula another one has split hastula, pointy hastula, tight fibres, loose fibres... Bluish leaves green leaves, papery leaves, leathery leaves. I must have garden full of mongrels

Now after all the sarcasm what do you guys think this might be? - see picture.

Cheers.

[Explorer]

Well Trachycarpus takil is differend from T. fortunei. The fibres on the trunk are differend, leaves are stiffer, tomentum in the upper part of the palm, fruits are differend. Maybe the natural habitad of Trachycarpus fortunei is very similair to that of T. takil, and thus has resulted in a similair looking palm. A kind of paralel evolution.

See also the pictures of 'Trachycarpus takil in the wild' on growingontheedge.net of 16 May 2010 and the pictures on GardenPalms.com of 'Trachycarpus takil at the roof of the world'.

Cheers,

Alexander

[Jimhardy]

n/m

Edited September 26, 2010 by Jimhardy

[Nigel]

Well Trachycarpus takil is differend from T. fortunei. The fibres on the trunk are differend, leaves are stiffer, tomentum in the upper part of the palm, fruits are differend. Maybe the natural habitad of Trachycarpus fortunei is very similair to that of T. takil, and thus has resulted in a similair looking palm. A kind of paralel evolution.

See also the pictures of 'Trachycarpus takil in the wild' on growingontheedge.net of 16 May 2010 and the pictures on GardenPalms.com of 'Trachycarpus takil at the roof of the world'.

Cheers,

Alexander

Alexander your photo at start of this thread is interesting because it seems different to Sergios plant. Of course growing in habitat it SHOULD be the real thing.

However, Gibbons and Spanner highlighted the plight of this palm and as a result many many new `takils` which were in fact naini tal fortuneis were planted in the wild, unfortunately, because the naini tal `palms were wrongly identified by Gibbons and Spanner the wild now has lots of naini tal fortuneis growing amongst the takils, and I wonder if this was one of them.

Its a very big problem, when I was at gardenpalms we paid a indian seed collector to go there and take photos and collect seeds because it was very difficult for a westerner to go there.

The seeds all came up with 4 ridges on the seedling leaf and both europalms seedlings and seedlings from the rome takil have 2 ridges so go figure......

The whole thing is a huge mess, nobody can be trusted it seems, and the world is full of takils that are not takils.

Alexander you are very fortunate to have been where so few westerners have been and I envy you for this......

Edited September 27, 2010 by Nigel

[Jimhardy]

Nigel wrote...."Alexander you are very fortunate to have been where so few westerners have been and I envy you for this......"

I agree Alexander,I would also love to see any pics you may have come across that

have not been posted yet/or have.

Do you have any close ups of the crown area or something similar.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Jimhardy

[Nigel]

Nigel wrote...."Alexander you are very fortunate to have been where so few westerners have been and I envy you for this......"

I agree Alexander,I would also love to see any pics you may have come across that

have not been posted yet/or have.

Do you have any close ups of the crown area or something similar.

I think only Gibbons, Spanner and Lorek have been there.

[Jimhardy]

Nigel wrote...."Alexander you are very fortunate to have been where so few westerners have been and I envy you for this......"

I agree Alexander,I would also love to see any pics you may have come across that

have not been posted yet/or have.

Do you have any close ups of the crown area or something similar.

I think only Gibbons, Spanner and Lorek have been there.

Nigel

Did you take a look at the palm I.d. question I posted on EPS

[Nigel]

Jim yes I did

[Takil-Explorer]

Nigel,

Only Lorek has been probably in that secret valley just behind the temple on the Kalamuni Pass! My guide told me I had been the first chab whom wanted to see the Trachycarpus takil. And I do not belive it but its true, an article of a certain Lalit M. Tewan and Geeta Tewari from the Department of Botany of the Kumaun University in Nainital. Indian scientis in a place not that far from Munsiyari, well a day driving, but in India that is not that far.

They say in their article of 4/26/2009 placed in the Academia Arena, that there are only about a dozen or so left at the richest location. Well they MUST have missed that valley I have been because there I have counted arround 40 trees!

But the strange thing is that I whom had never been to India before, do not speak a word of Hindi, just visit that area, find a guid whom brings me strait to the place. If my guide had more time we could have spent much longer and we would have seen more trees. Well the pictures on Gardenpalms proof that when you go a bit lower down that valley you will find many more. I say not that Trachycarpus takil is a common palm, far from that. But extremely rare fortunately not as is said in that Indian article!

Alexander

[Nigel]

Nigel,

Only Lorek has been probably in that secret valley just behind the temple on the Kalamuni Pass! My guide told me I had been the first chab whom wanted to see the Trachycarpus takil. And I do not belive it but its true, an article of a certain Lalit M. Tewan and Geeta Tewari from the Department of Botany of the Kumaun University in Nainital. Indian scientis in a place not that far from Munsiyari, well a day driving, but in India that is not that far.

They say in their article of 4/26/2009 placed in the Academia Arena, that there are only about a dozen or so left at the richest location. Well they MUST have missed that valley I have been because there I have counted arround 40 trees!

But the strange thing is that I whom had never been to India before, do not speak a word of Hindi, just visit that area, find a guid whom brings me strait to the place. If my guide had more time we could have spent much longer and we would have seen more trees. Well the pictures on Gardenpalms proof that when you go a bit lower down that valley you will find many more. I say not that Trachycarpus takil is a common palm, far from that. But extremely rare fortunately not as is said in that Indian article!

Alexander

Alexander there is several Indian articles, one saying that it is not a rare palm.

I find the article on gender change the most interesting, not least because those Trachcyarpus naini tals which apparently DNA analysis says are fortuneis... show same behaviour.

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/aug102007/295.pdf

www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jan102009/144.pdf

www.ias.ac.in/currsci/feb252008/444.pdf

www.ias.ac.in/currsci/mar102004/633.pdf

Also James at Europalms has pictures taken at different time in same valley so his seed collectors know where these trees are now and for sure are the right seeds !

In this article gbpihed.gov.in/SuryaKunj.PDF

there is a conservation organisation growing and redistributing takils , BUT they think the ornamental palm at Naini Tal is a takil an are redistributing thousands of Naini Tals in the takil areas !!! Disaster !!!

Edited October 18, 2010 by Nigel

[Takil-Explorer]

Nigel,

Are they still redistributing those Trachycarpus fortunei 'Nainital'? Well I know India is a third world country. But are they that stupid??? It would be the same as introducing Siberian tigers in India...

Alexander

[Nigel]

Nigel,

Are they still redistributing those Trachycarpus fortunei 'Nainital'? Well I know India is a third world country. But are they that stupid??? It would be the same as introducing Siberian tigers in India...

Alexander

They should be tracking down every last one of them and digging them up............. I really dont know if they are still doing it but the website says so......

[Takil-Explorer]

I hope they will do that! In Munsiyari I had mad a local forestmanager, he did not speak English but with my guide I told him that they should collect the T. takil seeds to grow them on their nursery for restoring depleted populations! And that the local villagers should grow some Trachycarpus takil along their fields for seedproduction in the future! It could mean extra income and its much better to get seeds from cultivated palms then collect them in the forest as I guess is the practice at this moment. The local people seem not to plant them as ornamentals, It would be a good thing if local Indian people would value their native plantlive more. It seems that at the moment marigolds are more populair there then their native stuff...

Alexander

[JasonD]

1. I wonder if the Trachycarus takil is just a variation of T. fortunei or vice versa. It seems like it is nearly impossible to tell these 2 apart. Besides Trachycarpus fortunei is such a variable species and we have thisSan thatSan and waggie and $san and bull***tSan and many more.

2. What is the key to tell them apart? (some seed merchants claim that the takil seed sold until now was not the real thing)? So have they been selling us T. fortunei? How come back then they were not able to tell takil from fortunei (and still claiming the seeds to be takil) and somehow now they can? Come on people buy some real takil seed.

3. Is it possible that T. fortunei was actually imported to China a long time ago along with buddhism? Or perhaps the other way round?

I have got many Trachycarpus "fortunei" and each one is different. One is small and stiffy, another one is large, soft and droopy, another one has twisted hastula another one has split hastula, pointy hastula, tight fibres, loose fibres... Bluish leaves green leaves, papery leaves, leathery leaves. I must have garden full of mongrels

Now after all the sarcasm what do you guys think this might be? - see picture.

Cheers.

Takil is distinct from fortunei and fortunei's endless variations. A takil old enough to have a trunk with leafbases makes a contrast with fortunei. Takil has tight leafbase fibers (more like martianus & latisectus), the tendency of the petiole base to skew as it enters the leaf sheath, the 360-degree blade of the leaf, the regularity of the segment divisions, the larger overall scale, thicker trunk, the greater vigor (at least here in the SF Bay Area), the coloration of older and senescing leaves... It's an unmistakeably different species, with greater distinction from fortunei than wagnerianus, for example.

[Alberto]

Nigel,

Are they still redistributing those Trachycarpus fortunei 'Nainital'? Well I know India is a third world country. But are they that stupid??? It would be the same as introducing Siberian tigers in India...

Alexander

It´s not the same!!!!

Tigers all are Panthera tigris and the siberian tiger is a Panthera tigris var.altaica.

Trachicarpus takil isn´t a T.fortunei var. takil...........

[Nigel]

1. I wonder if the Trachycarus takil is just a variation of T. fortunei or vice versa. It seems like it is nearly impossible to tell these 2 apart. Besides Trachycarpus fortunei is such a variable species and we have thisSan thatSan and waggie and $san and bull***tSan and many more.

2. What is the key to tell them apart? (some seed merchants claim that the takil seed sold until now was not the real thing)? So have they been selling us T. fortunei? How come back then they were not able to tell takil from fortunei (and still claiming the seeds to be takil) and somehow now they can? Come on people buy some real takil seed.

3. Is it possible that T. fortunei was actually imported to China a long time ago along with buddhism? Or perhaps the other way round?

I have got many Trachycarpus "fortunei" and each one is different. One is small and stiffy, another one is large, soft and droopy, another one has twisted hastula another one has split hastula, pointy hastula, tight fibres, loose fibres... Bluish leaves green leaves, papery leaves, leathery leaves. I must have garden full of mongrels

Now after all the sarcasm what do you guys think this might be? - see picture.

Cheers.

Takil is distinct from fortunei and fortunei's endless variations. A takil old enough to have a trunk with leafbases makes a contrast with fortunei. Takil has tight leafbase fibers (more like martianus & latisectus), the tendency of the petiole base to skew as it enters the leaf sheath, the 360-degree blade of the leaf, the regularity of the segment divisions, the larger overall scale, thicker trunk, the greater vigor (at least here in the SF Bay Area), the coloration of older and senescing leaves... It's an unmistakeably different species, with greater distinction from fortunei than wagnerianus, for example.

Jason pics would be much appreciated..... there is so few `right ones` in cultivation.

[Takil-Explorer]

Nigel,

Are they still redistributing those Trachycarpus fortunei 'Nainital'? Well I know India is a third world country. But are they that stupid??? It would be the same as introducing Siberian tigers in India...

Alexander

It´s not the same!!!!

Tigers all are Panthera tigris and the siberian tiger is a Panthera tigris var.altaica.

Trachicarpus takil isn´t a T.fortunei var. takil...........

Alberto,

You are right. But even on subspecies basis this would count. So for example a Trachycarpus martianus fom Nepal versus one from the Khasi Hills.

Alexander

[AJQ]

Bump.......any more Info?

Regards Andy.

Edited May 12, 2011 by AJQ

[sarasota alex]

I took a picture of this Trachy labeled "takil" at Houston's Mercer Arboretum and later was disappointed to have been advised that this is in fact a mislabeled T. fortunei var wagnerianus

[Jimhardy]

Definitely nothing like a Takil at all.

[Takil-Explorer]

That Trachycarpus looks more like a T. wagenerianus.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

Here a link to my pictures of Trachycarpus takil near the Kalamuni Pass on the GOTE forum. I went there in April 2010.

http://www.growingontheedge.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4552&hilit=+Trachycarpus+takil

Alexander

[AJQ]

Alexander, how long was your visit ? Did you observe any with Orange inflorescence?

Has anyone any photos of Takils in Cali or Atlanta with Orange inflorescence?

Regards Andy.

[Takil-Explorer]

Andy,

I stayed only 2 nights in Munsiyari. And the Trachycarpus takil had allready finished It was at the 29 of April 2010 that I visted that valley below the Kalamuni Pass where I took most pictures. And also the first of May on the way back I took some pictures of young specimems along the road just south of the Kalamuni Pass. And I also saw 2 adult palms along that road. All just a few km from the Kalamuni Pass.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

Andy,

I had also placed 3 pictures of an old Trachycarpus takil in a garden in Munsiyari. There you can see the begining fruits, and some seeds on the old inflorescenses of a year earlier. Well I had noticed the seeds later on back home when I had a closer look. Otherwise I had tried to collect seeds offcourse.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

Well I have to go back there some time. Maybe in the autumn!

Well the link to where they grow arround the Kalamuni Pass area. Up to 2600 meters where it snows in winter now and then.

http://maps.google.nl/maps?t=h&hl=nl&ie=UTF8&ll=30.034102,80.201654&spn=0.029128,0.052571&z=15

Alexander

[AJQ]

I guess that's a big NO then.

Hmmm.....Why do the Rome Takils have an Orange inflorescence and the the Cali and Atlanta ones not?

Regards Andy.

[Takil-Explorer]

I do not know!

Alexander

[Jimhardy]

Maybe it is just the timing of the pictures taken.

[Takil-Explorer]

Could be.

Alexander