Coconuts in SoCal

[Ashton]

I'm going to try Carpoxylon soon as well. You must be thinking 'a fool and his money are soon parted', but....

I've got a large planter, adjacent to my home, and south facing. Since the entire home has recirculating hot water for the kitchen and bathrooms, why not run some of that water outside the house and through coils in the planter bed. I'm paying to heat the water anyway and it probably won't changed my heating bill significantly.

My question is what type of pipes should I use in the planting bed. Copper is very heat conductive, but I don't know if the copper would leach and harm the palm. I've got radiant heating throughout the house and it uses fairly rigid plastic pipes.

Has anyone tried this approach before, and if so, what materials did they use?

Thanks in advance.

Ashton

[Walter John]

Your disease is coming on nicely, good luck.

[Ashton]

(Wal @ Dec. 11 2006,19:43)

QUOTE

Your disease is coming on nicely, good luck.

Yea, I'm actually running late for my palmanon meeting. I'll take my Treo PDA with me so I can read all the replies. Oh wait, wouldn't that just feed into the addiction?

[Dypsisdean]

Ashton,

Just some thoughts:

Your thinking about heat transfer and the possiblity of copper affecting growth are where mine started. However, I think there is an important practical concern as well.

Since this will be part of the home plumbing and constantly in circulation, you should consider the prevention of leaks first. Will you need to dig in that planter in the future? If so, plastic is much easier to break. Also, if you are thinking Cocos and Carpoxylon, you will eventually have an area of solid roots. Will those roots tweak plastic more than copper? Maybe the copper would help keep the roots from crushing it. How will you engineer the plumbing? Around the outside? At the surface or down low, or both? Do you want the water circulating in summer too? What happens if you do have a leak or blockage?

I'm thinking you may want to put in a by-pass. That way if anything should become broken or crushed, you could just by-pass that area and you wouldn't be without hot water in the house until you could fix it. You could also vary the flow, and hence the temp for summer or winter.

Also, I think Ralph Velez had (has) an area like that. He used to call it "hot feet." I think I heard people mention it during the recent chapter meeting there. I'm sure he would discuss it with you.

[Scott]

Dean some really good ideas there.

Ashton - I wish you much success. Keep us posted!

[BS Man about Palms]

I's rare, but I have seen plastic covered copper, that will slow down the eventual breakdown, (years), just a thought.

[bgl]

Ashton,

I'm sure Dean knows exactly what he's talking about, so can't add anything there. I recall that when we had a meeting at John Tallman's place in Ventura many years ago, it was mentioned that he had done this as well in one area of his garden. Anyone remember any details? Unfortunately, John died a few years ago so we can't ask him.

And just a general observation: if you're successful in growing the coconut palms, they have VERY aggressive root systems. Much more so than the Carpoxylon.

Bo-Göran

Oh, and BTW, I don't think you're qualified for a palmanon meeting until your entire garden is so packed with palms that you'd have a hard time squeezing in even a Phoenix roebelenii. And just the fact that you have a large planter still available for planting tells me you have a long way to go....

[Ashton]

(bgl @ Dec. 12 2006,00:27)

QUOTE

Oh, and BTW, I don't think you're qualified for a palmanon meeting until your entire garden is so packed with palms that you'd have a hard time squeezing in even a Phoenix roebelenii. And just the fact that you have a large planter still available for planting tells me you have a long way to go....

The only reason it will be available is because I'm going to tear out a huge strelitzia nicoli that's currently taking up space for my coconut experiment. You see, it's not that I am starting up the addiction, I'm already changing my drug of choice:) Speaking of robelinis, I've got a dozen that I'm already moving out... that is unless my wife moves me out sooner.

Ashton

[bgl]

OK, now you're definitely making progress....

[Tyrone]

I've thought of doing this sort of crazy stuff too. I'm saying "crazy" in a nice way though. Just a thought with the copper pipe. If the temp gets too high, the roots may not like it and you will dry the immediate area out real quick. If you could spread the energy out more, rather than concentrating it around the pipe. The temp should drop to a cosy warmth that would be more even and usable to more roots. Maybe mix in some granite gravel etc which will pick up heat and conduct it elsewhere. I hope it all goes well with you and keep us posted. We can all learn something from this I think, except for those in warmer climates already.

regards

Tyrone

[palmazon]

Speaking of coconuts, anyone of you (besides Ashton) ever tried coconut kefir?

[Cristóbal]

hi ashton where are you in southern california ? by the ocean or by hills ?

i have much experience of growing the cocos nucifera here in tijuana, since 1999.

in 1999 i start with 3 cocos nucifera by the beach in pots, i put them in sand from beach and perlite 3/4 and 1/4.

in 2002 i move to house 25 kilometers from beach on a hill, and put them in ground. i change the soil for the cocos to be mostly sand and from beach and some perlite.

in 2003, when they are more then 2 meters high and with trunk, i move them to a more hot place of my house. i then lose them after santa ana winds of more than 1 week kill them right when i transplant them.

heres the secrets:

1. plant in sand. the clays soils not good for the cocos it is wet and cool in winter, the sand drys fast and becomes more warm fast.

2. do not water in winter ! when young, cover them and soil from rain. when they are more big, natural rains ok.

3. the more sun they have, better.

4. protect from santa ana winds ! put some thing to block the winds if this is problem.

5. if you put in planter, paint it black.

6. i find, the cocos stay more green in the winter when by the ocean but dont grow fast. away from the ocean they become little yellow but grow much more fast in summer. i think its better to grow away from the ocean. fertilize in winter, not to much, and they do grow only much more slow.

7. don't plant a coco when it has no trunk. keep in pot, when it start to make the trunk, you can put in ground, and do this in april.

i ask where you are, for the climate heres a little more warmer in winter and summer and much less rain then in l.a. area, i am much more south and have a more better climate for this i think.

if you are not far from me, you can try with no copper tube for heating the soil. to me, if you cant do it natural, then forget it.

-- in this april, im going to put in the ground a cocos i have in pot right now. its ready, and when i do this, i am going to put many fotos to show to every body how to do this.

[Cycadcenter]

(BS, Man about Palms @ Dec. 11 2006,23:54)

QUOTE

I's rare, but I have seen plastic covered copper, that will slow down the eventual breakdown, (years), just a thought.

The plastic covered copper pipe is available from www.teksupply.com  not cheap but used for underfloor heating in greenhouses etc.

[STEVE IN SO CAL]

Ashton...Deans idea is a good one. I always put in a spare set of pipes when it will be covered in concrete or any masonry. PVC is cheap. Another idea... encase the copper with a significantly larger diameter pvv pipe. This will protect the copper from errant shovel thrusts, as well as dissipate the heat more evenly.

Oh, and forgot to add...YOU'RE NUTS  

[Ashton]

(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Dec. 12 2006,11:09)

QUOTE

Oh, and forgot to add...YOU'RE NUTS  

I know, and in five years, I'll post a photo of them so you will all know I'm nuts  ::

[BobbyinNY]

Ashton, if you wanna talk about a fool and his money, come to my house.. that's ALL I have to say about that..

[Jeff Searle]

(Ashton @ Dec. 12 2006,11:25)

QUOTE

(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Dec. 12 2006,11:09)

QUOTE

Oh, and forgot to add...YOU'RE NUTS  

I know, and in five years, I'll post a photo of them so you will all know I'm nuts  ::

Ashton,

     You know how I feel from our talk. Go for it! Prove them wrong.  Or....in 5 years, they will prove you wrong.

Jeff

[MattyB]

Ashton, first of all, good luck.  Sounds like a fun experiment.  I do have one comment on the following:

I'm paying to heat the water anyway and it probably won't changed my heating bill significantly.

My dad decided to run a plastic hose from his hot tub to his fish pond.  The hot tub's hot water would circulate through the hose and the heat would transfer from the outside of the hose into the fish pond water and then head back to the hot tub to be reheated.  This was the process.  His electric bill went up $75 in one month.  I don't know how that will compare to your system but you might be suprised at the amount of energy it will take in the winter w/ the cold ground pulling the heat out of the pipes.  Solar might be the way to go.  The only cost would be that of a pump to get the water back up to the panel for reheating.  How much of a marine layer does Palos Verdes get?

[Dypsisdean]

(MattyB @ Dec. 12 2006,09:05)

QUOTE

Ashton, first of all, good luck.  Sounds like a fun experiment.  I do have one comment on the following:

I'm paying to heat the water anyway and it probably won't changed my heating bill significantly.

My dad decided to run a plastic hose from his hot tub to his fish pond.  The hot tub's hot water would circulate through the hose and the heat would transfer from the outside of the hose into the fish pond water and then head back to the hot tub to be reheated.  This was the process.  His electric bill went up $75 in one month.  I don't know how that will compare to your system but you might be suprised at the amount of energy it will take in the winter w/ the cold ground pulling the heat out of the pipes.  Solar might be the way to go.  The only cost would be that of a pump to get the water back up to the panel for reheating.  How much of a marine layer does Palos Verdes get?

Good obsevation Matt. Your dad's experience is like leaving a little bit of the cover off the spa, or a slow dripping leak on a faucet. That is, a slow leaking anything mounts up over time.

However, the solar idea may not work so great. When Ashton needs the most heat, is when he would have none. Namely, cold winter nights.

[AS in SA]

Ashton,

I've had two growing in Santa Ana, CA for the last 10 months - they've been outside the entire time.  Each around 4-5 ft. tall (6 including the pots).  I planted them both in large terracotta pots using 100% sand for potting soil.  Planted them with full southern exposure and covered the tops of both pots with black river rock to absorb the daytime heat.  So far so good... their growth certainly hasn't set any land speed records, one has pushed up 3 new fronds and working on a fourth, while the other has pushed up 2 and working on a third.  

I'd say that the fast draining soil is key - avoiding cold and soggy roots.  We've had some cold night time weather in the last month (lower 40's) which has yellowed some of the older leaves on both, but the newer growth still looks green.  Good luck on your project.

[Ashton]

(palmazon @ Dec. 12 2006,09:40)

QUOTE

Speaking of coconuts, anyone of you (besides Ashton) ever tried coconut kefir?

If not, give a holler. My wife makes large batches of it weekly.

ashton

[Ashton]

(BobbyinNY @ Dec. 12 2006,11:37)

QUOTE

Ashton, if you wanna talk about a fool and his money, come to my house.. that's ALL I have to say about that..

Bobby,

You can start your own 12-step palmanon meeting right there in NY. That way, I'll have a safe place to go when I'm in town

ashton

[palmazon]

To improve the chances of pulling this off, shall we boil it down?  Plant Cocos in sand topped with say, black lava mulch; install a valve or bypass device in case heating coil needs to be isolated from house plumbing for repair; wrap pipe to diffuse heat more uniformly - did I leave anything out? Which cultivar is reputed to be hardiest? Incidentally, the only reason I'm encouraging this wanton behavior is to generate material for future palm journal articles - we're that hard up...

[Scott]

Just out of curiosity, another approach, my house has heating elements in the floor. Likewise there are public places in colder climes that have heating elements in the concrete - say in driveways - to keep ice from forming. Has anyone ever attempted this?

[DoomsDave]

(BobbyinNY @ Dec. 12 2006,11:37)

QUOTE

Ashton, if you wanna talk about a fool and his money, come to my house.. that's ALL I have to say about that..

Me, too!

Bobby and I can agree on that much!

[Ashton]

(palmazon @ Dec. 12 2006,22:28)

QUOTE

Incidentally, the only reason I'm encouraging this wanton behavior is to generate material for future palm journal articles - we're that hard up...

Now let's be honest Danny. The real reason you want the info is because I've got no more palms lying around for you to stick into the ground and you miss my wife's cooking.

Honestly, Danny and his crew spent the better part of two weeks removing close to 50 cubic yards of Palos Verdes rock and clay from my yard and replacing it with the good stuff. He then planted five purpurae's, a couple burretiokentia viellardii, clinostigma savoryanum, chambeyronia, prestoea montana (all about 35g to 36" boxes), a Spathodea campanulata, and about 50 bromeliads and vresias, all top with black lava rock. He had a crew going seven days a week and finished the job with about two hours to spare before my wife had 50 of her closets friends over for xmas dinner on Saturday. And most importantly, all night long I got comments on how wonderfully tropical the front walkway to my home looked.

The reason I'm mentioning all this is not to blow sunshine up his skirt. It's simply to let the people in SoCal know that Danny Lewis knows his stuff (Palms, plants, grasses, trees, green and shade houses, etc.) and he works his butt off. If you need palm help, send him a message and he might be able to assist...that is if he's not busy working in my garden or chowing down a free meal

Ashton

[Tyrone]

(Cristóbal @ Dec. 12 2006,10:13)

QUOTE

hi ashton where are you in southern california ? by the ocean or by hills ?

i have much experience of growing the cocos nucifera here in tijuana, since 1999.

in 1999 i start with 3 cocos nucifera by the beach in pots, i put them in sand from beach and perlite 3/4 and 1/4.

in 2002 i move to house 25 kilometers from beach on a hill, and put them in ground. i change the soil for the cocos to be mostly sand and from beach and some perlite.

in 2003, when they are more then 2 meters high and with trunk, i move them to a more hot place of my house. i then lose them after santa ana winds of more than 1 week kill them right when i transplant them.

heres the secrets:

1. plant in sand. the clays soils not good for the cocos it is wet and cool in winter, the sand drys fast and becomes more warm fast.

2. do not water in winter ! when young, cover them and soil from rain. when they are more big, natural rains ok.

3. the more sun they have, better.

4. protect from santa ana winds ! put some thing to block the winds if this is problem.

5. if you put in planter, paint it black.

6. i find, the cocos stay more green in the winter when by the ocean but dont grow fast. away from the ocean they become little yellow but grow much more fast in summer. i think its better to grow away from the ocean. fertilize in winter, not to much, and they do grow only much more slow.

7. don't plant a coco when it has no trunk. keep in pot, when it start to make the trunk, you can put in ground, and do this in april.

i ask where you are, for the climate heres a little more warmer in winter and summer and much less rain then in l.a. area, i am much more south and have a more better climate for this i think.

if you are not far from me, you can try with no copper tube for heating the soil. to me, if you cant do it natural, then forget it.

-- in this april, im going to put in the ground a cocos i have in pot right now. its ready, and when i do this, i am going to put many fotos to show to every body how to do this.

Cristobal, I'm so glad you have posted on this thread. I wondered how Cocos would grow in Tijuana as my latitude here is exactly the same as yours only in the South and we're both on the western side of a continent, so our climates would be very similar indeed. I get much more rain in the winter though than you would, but the soil here if you can call it soil is about 50ft deep beach sand with water table only 12ft down. Everything you mentioned is the exact conclusion I'd come too and I'm going to give a Cocos a go. I have the exact place sorted out for my plant against a north facing wall that is white, in sand, and I'll make a rockery out of it. Depending how big it will be when I plant it, I could even construct a plastic covering to up the temps and keep the cool out etc. The position is very well protected and gets no wind even in strong winter gales. I'm about 20km from the beach as the crow flies, and we regularly get into the 20C range in winter and in summer we can get into the mid forties celcius, so plenty of growth heat in summer etc. I'd love to see any of  your successes.

best regards

Tyrone

[palmazon]

(Ashton @ Dec. 12 2006,23:20)

QUOTE

(palmazon @ Dec. 12 2006,22:28)

QUOTE

Incidentally, the only reason I'm encouraging this wanton behavior is to generate material for future palm journal articles - we're that hard up...

Now let's be honest Danny. The real reason you want the info is because I've got no more palms lying around for you to stick into the ground and you miss my wife's cooking.

Honestly, Danny and his crew spent the better part of two weeks removing close to 50 cubic yards of Palos Verdes rock and clay from my yard and replacing it with the good stuff. He then planted five purpurae's, a couple burretiokentia viellardii, clinostigma savoryanum, chambeyronia, prestoea montana (all about 35g to 36" boxes), a Spathodea campanulata, and about 50 bromeliads and vresias, all top with black lava rock. He had a crew going seven days a week and finished the job with about two hours to spare before my wife had 50 of her closets friends over for xmas dinner on Saturday. And most importantly, all night long I got comments on how wonderfully tropical the front walkway to my home looked.

The reason I'm mentioning all this is not to blow sunshine up his skirt. It's simply to let the people in SoCal know that Danny Lewis knows his stuff (Palms, plants, grasses, trees, green and shade houses, etc.) and he works his butt off. If you need palm help, send him a message and he might be able to assist...that is if he's not busy working in my garden or chowing down a free meal

Ashton

you talkin to me?

(apologies to Bobby DeNiro)

[MattyB]

That Danny....I could just grab his cheeks and squeeze!!!!

Sorry Danny, I just didn't know you wore skirts.....it got me all in a twist. ???

[MattyB]

Ashton, pictures!! We wanna see.  It sounds awesome!  All that new dirt is gonna really pay off.  The areas that I have that are raised planters w/ several feet depth of good soil brought in are thriving!  Buy some worms they'll get the party started right.  Make sure they bring tequila though, no Mescal.

[elHoagie]

Just a couple random thoughts I have...

1) I would put a thermostat on the setup so you can maintain a temperature of maybe 20C.  Depending on the temperature of the water, the soil might get very hot, which would cost $$$$.

2) Why not just use heating cables?  The conversion of energy to heat is much better for electrical cables than for a water heater, so this might be less expensive in the long run.

[palmazon]

So we're all agreed it's possible to succeed in this endeavor but at what cost? Any other pitfalls come to mind? Further inquiry is in order, namely, researching optimum soil temps (and how to regulate).

[SubTropicRay]

Danny,

I couldn't believe the one I saw on the way to your place.  Is that the same one being discussed here?

Ray

[palmazon]

mucho tiempo sin verte, Ramon - felicidades en su matrimonia/o (?)

We're exploring the possibilities of a guy from Texzas who dwells in SoCal planting a Cocos from either Florida or Hawai'i (though I hear the Thailand varieties have higher sugar content - better for coconut kefir) - where was I? Basically, hammering out the technical aspects of Cocos-rearing on the Palos Verdes Peninsula, and (more to the point) keeping this thread afloat to gain as many insights as possible

[Palmy]

Any chance for a coconut in northern california? Yea yea, I know, Im crazy. Im going to try it, putting heating cables, and rapping it up thoughout the winter, including heating cables around the trunk with sand and rock for the soil. Any chance? Yep Im going crazy. Stop me now before I do something stupid.

[MattyB]

Zach, back away from the ledge.....it's all gonna be ok.  Come towards the sound of my voice.

[MattyB]

One thought:  Making the planter exterior a dark color will aid in heat absorbsion and distribution.  Also, 110V spotlights below the palm illuminating it upwards can aid in raising the air temerature around the foliage.  Plus uplighting always looks cool for palms.  I have low voltage (12V) uplights on some of my palms and when it rains or when the sprinklers come on you can see the steam rising off of them so a few 110V spot lights will help alot.

[Ashton]

(MattyB @ Dec. 12 2006,14:05)

QUOTE

Ashton, first of all, good luck.  Sounds like a fun experiment.  I do have one comment on the following:

I'm paying to heat the water anyway and it probably won't changed my heating bill significantly.

My dad decided to run a plastic hose from his hot tub to his fish pond.  The hot tub's hot water would circulate through the hose and the heat would transfer from the outside of the hose into the fish pond water and then head back to the hot tub to be reheated.  This was the process.  His electric bill went up $75 in one month.  I don't know how that will compare to your system but you might be suprised at the amount of energy it will take in the winter w/ the cold ground pulling the heat out of the pipes.  Solar might be the way to go.  The only cost would be that of a pump to get the water back up to the panel for reheating.  How much of a marine layer does Palos Verdes get?

Matt,

I can see how his heating bill went up so significantly. Lie (lay?) on the ground for five minutes and see how much heat your body loses and then lie in the fish pond for five minutes and see what happens.  I'll take the ground, you can take the pond.

Solar panels would keep it warm in the day, but I would need lunar panels to keep it warm on cool nights. (I couldn't find any online)

Palos Verdes gets one heck of a marine layer in June/July.

Ashton

[Ashton]

(Dypsisdean @ Dec. 11 2006,21:51)

QUOTE

Ashton,

Just some thoughts:

Your thinking about heat transfer and the possiblity of copper affecting growth are where mine started. However, I think there is an important practical concern as well.

Since this will be part of the home plumbing and constantly in circulation, you should consider the prevention of leaks first. Will you need to dig in that planter in the future? If so, plastic is much easier to break. Also, if you are thinking Cocos and Carpoxylon, you will eventually have an area of solid roots. Will those roots tweak plastic more than copper? Maybe the copper would help keep the roots from crushing it. How will you engineer the plumbing? Around the outside? At the surface or down low, or both? Do you want the water circulating in summer too? What happens if you do have a leak or blockage?

I'm thinking you may want to put in a by-pass. That way if anything should become broken or crushed, you could just by-pass that area and you wouldn't be without hot water in the house until you could fix it. You could also vary the flow, and hence the temp for summer or winter.

Also, I think Ralph Velez had (has) an area like that. He used to call it "hot feet." I think I heard people mention it during the recent chapter meeting there. I'm sure he would discuss it with you.

Dean,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I am a little concerned about copper leaching into the surrounding soil.

I absolutely will ensure that any pipes added to the system will be as leakproof as possible. I've got plastic pipes throughout my slab for radiant heat and the fittings are robust and leakproof. They resist rupture due to cracks in the concrete. I believe that both copper and plastic pipes will both be very easy to pierce with a shovel so I had best plan this site as much as possible. I 'll absolutely have a bypass valve and I might even have the flow regulated by a thermostatic controller.

I'll take your advice and try to contact Ralph. He probably has some good advice to add to your's.

Thanks again,

Ashton

[Ashton]

(bgl @ Dec. 12 2006,00:27)

QUOTE

Ashton,

If you're successful in growing the coconut palms, they have VERY aggressive root systems.

Bo,

When you say aggressive, do you mean that they are plentiful and fast spreading, or do you mean that they are destructive?

Ashton