Coconuts in SoCal

[Ashton]

(Cristóbal @ Dec. 12 2006,10:13)

QUOTE

hi ashton where are you in southern california ? by the ocean or by hills ?

Well, both actually. I'm two blocks from the ocean and by the hill on the Palos Verdes Peninsula.

Thanks for the advice. Your experiences will be helpful.

Ashton

[Ashton]

(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Dec. 12 2006,11:09)

QUOTE

Ashton...encase the copper with a significantly larger diameter pvc pipe. This will protect the copper from errant shovel thrusts, as well as dissipate the heat more evenly.

Steve,

I'm going to be bending this pipe in the shape of the planter box. I can't figure out how to encase all this is PVC. Do you know of a malleable PVC? Send me some if you've got any and I'll use it  

[Ashton]

(elHoagie @ Dec. 13 2006,15:05)

QUOTE

1) I would put a thermostat on the setup so you can maintain a temperature of maybe 20C.  Depending on the temperature of the water, the soil might get very hot, which would cost $$$$.

2) Why not just use heating cables?  The conversion of energy to heat is much better for electrical cables than for a water heater, so this might be less expensive in the long run.

1) Great idea.  I was considering having an adjustable valve that I govern by hand based on soil temps.

2) Do you know of a manufacturer of water proof and corrosion resistant heating cables? And maybe I've been missled all these years by ads from the gas company (I should have taken thermo in college... that whole 2nd law thing scared me), but I thought that cost of gas btu's was cheaper than comparable electric kilowatt hours. My clothes dryer is gas, my stove top is gas, and my radiant heating system uses gas heated recirculating water pipes. Am I being taken? If the conversion of energy to heat is much better for electrical cables, wouldn't it certainly be less expensive in the long run?

Ashton

[elHoagie]

(Ashton @ Dec. 15 2006,03:01)

QUOTE

2) Do you know of a manufacturer of water proof and corrosion resistant heating cables? And maybe I've been missled all these years by ads from the gas company (I should have taken thermo in college... that whole 2nd law thing scared me), but I thought that cost of gas btu's was cheaper than comparable electric kilowatt hours. My clothes dryer is gas, my stove top is gas, and my radiant heating system uses gas heated recirculating water pipes. Am I being taken? If the conversion of energy to heat is much better for electrical cables, wouldn't it certainly be less expensive in the long run?

Ashton

Ashton,

I've never purchased any heating cables, so I can't comment on the quality of anything.  

I should have done a little more research before I made the gas vs. electricity comment.  I think you're right that gas is cheaper.  The reason I made the comment is because electrical cables will convert 100% of the input electrical energy into warming up the ground.  With water, your gas heater probably is only 50-60% efficient converting the energy in the gas into warming the water.  The reason gas heaters cost less to operate even though they are less efficient is because gas is cheaper than electricity (at least for now).

Jack

[BobbyinNY]

Bobby,

You can start your own 12-step palmanon meeting right there in NY. That way, I'll have a safe place to go when I'm in town  

ashton

C'mon over...... Palmaholics always love company... .proves to my wife that I'm not the only crazy one.

[Dypsisdean]

(Ashton @ Dec. 14 2006,21:29)

QUOTE

I'm going to be bending this pipe in the shape of the planter box. I can't figure out how to encase all this is PVC. Do you know of a malleable PVC? Send me some if you've got any and I'll use it  

Ashton,

They make flexible PVC. We use it all the time for the plumbing around spas.

Shouldn't be hard to find at all.

[MattyB]

I've stood in the "Hose Isle" at Home Depot and wondered what the heck is all this hose for?  I'm sure you could find something that's flexible and strong.  At least much better than regular PVC.

Bo,

When you say aggressive, do you mean that they are plentiful and fast spreading, or do you mean that they are destructive

?

Obviously Bo would know better than me but here's a picture Paul took of a coconut bursting out an unreinforced block wall.  I'd suspect that if the planter was too small and rebar was not added you might get cracks eventually.  It would be a massive success story though if your coconut grows so big it bursts your planter.

[Ashton]

(elHoagie @ Dec. 15 2006,13:27)

QUOTE

(Ashton @ Dec. 15 2006,03:01)

QUOTE

2) Do you know of a manufacturer of water proof and corrosion resistant heating cables? And maybe I've been missled all these years by ads from the gas company (I should have taken thermo in college... that whole 2nd law thing scared me), but I thought that cost of gas btu's was cheaper than comparable electric kilowatt hours. My clothes dryer is gas, my stove top is gas, and my radiant heating system uses gas heated recirculating water pipes. Am I being taken? If the conversion of energy to heat is much better for electrical cables, wouldn't it certainly be less expensive in the long run?

Ashton

Ashton,

I've never purchased any heating cables, so I can't comment on the quality of anything.  

I should have done a little more research before I made the gas vs. electricity comment.  I think you're right that gas is cheaper.  The reason I made the comment is because electrical cables will convert 100% of the input electrical energy into warming up the ground.  With water, your gas heater probably is only 50-60% efficient converting the energy in the gas into warming the water.  The reason gas heaters cost less to operate even though they are less efficient is because gas is cheaper than electricity (at least for now).

Jack

Jack,

I do get your point. All electrical energy applied to the cables is converted to heat due to the resistance of the cables. A great deal of energy escapes from my water heater through the vent. Maybe I could bleed a little hot air from that vent to my palm and warm the top of the palm tree...or maybe not  

It is my belief that the reason gas is cheaper than electricity is because once the gas is refined, they ship it to your home. Electricity starts out in a different form...hydroelectric ...nuke...coal, etc. That energy is converted at the plant (costly) before it's carried to your home $$$.

If anyone knows of a potential source for electrical soil heating cables, please respond. I'll consider all options and let everyone know the results.

Ashton

[palmazon]

(MattyB @ Dec. 15 2006,12:47)

QUOTE

Obviously Bo would know better than me but here's a picture Paul took of a coconut bursting out an unreinforced block wall.  I'd suspect that if the planter was too small and rebar was not added you might get cracks eventually.  It would be a massive success story though if your coconut grows so big it bursts your planter.

Matt - the planter in question is a broad half-circular opening through a slab on grade, not an above-grade container.

M'entiendes, Mendez? O t'explico Federico...

[palmazon]

will this thread endure longer than a Cocos in Palos Verdes? I now have an inkling what the Wright Brothers must have experienced trying to persuade a skeptical public...

Ashton - whether you succeed or fail, you'll achieve legendary status of one kind or another.

[Ashton]

(palmazon @ Dec. 16 2006,20:53)

QUOTE

Ashton - whether you succeed or fail, you'll achieve legendary status of one kind or another.

I ain't gonna fail...just watch.

[palmazon]

Hey man - I'm just keeping this afloat to gain more input

[Darold Petty]

Do it Ashton!   You're not crazy (anymore that the rest of us!) and you're not the first.  The late John Tallman did this at his home in Ventura.  I believe he used the water pipe method.

[Cristóbal]

hi ashton you have good location to do this probaly one of the best in area of  los angeles. can you put some valve on the water pipe? this way you can do experiment and turn off, on when you want.

if the cocos more then 1 meter high, try with no hot water ! then if it starts to die, turn it on. if more small - less then 1 meter then try with the hot water then when its more big turn it off - i think when its 2 meters high is good size to turn off the hot water and experiment.

you can always turn on the hot water again if it is suffering.

[MattyB]

Charlies Greenhouse Link

Here's some pretty industrial looking heating cables Ashton.  Looks like it just plugs right into a GFI 120V outlet.  Make sure and get a thermostat.  Go for it man!  Seems a lot easier than the hot water pipe method.

[spockvr6]

(Darold Petty @ Dec. 18 2006,23:37)

QUOTE

I ain't gonna fail...just watch.

Do it Ashton!   You're not crazy (anymore that the rest of us!) and you're not the first.  The late John Tallman did this at his home in Ventura.  I believe he used the water pipe method.

Man....I thought I was going overboard in getting some propane forced air heaters on Ebay in the event a bad one hits.......

[bgl]

Ashton,

Hadn't checked this thread for a few days so I just saw your question in Post #40. By aggressive I definitely mean plentiful and fast spreading, and depending on what you have in the immediate vicinity (10-12 ft, give or take) they can also be destructive. We have a few Samoan Dwarfs, in two groups about 10 ft apart and between them we have a driveway, which we paved a number of years ago with asphalt. The roots from the coconuts are now causing severe buckling in the blacktop. Most palm roots don't do this kind of damage. Others with aggressive root systems: Roystoneas and Clinostigma samoense.

Bo-Göran

[Ashton]

(MattyB @ Dec. 19 2006,19:14)

QUOTE

Charlies Greenhouse Link

Here's some pretty industrial looking heating cables Ashton.  Looks like it just plugs right into a GFI 120V outlet.  Make sure and get a thermostat.  Go for it man!  Seems a lot easier than the hot water pipe method.

Now this is the reply I've been waiting for. And yes, it would be far less expensive than replumbing my recirculating hot water line, dry wall repair, stucco drilling, copper pipe, etc.

With the $$$ I've saved on  all of the above, I could probably heat several planter beds in the winter. Nice!!!

Ashton

[Ashton]

(bgl @ Dec. 19 2006,22:06)

QUOTE

Ashton,

Hadn't checked this thread for a few days so I just saw your question in Post #40. By aggressive I definitely mean plentiful and fast spreading, and depending on what you have in the immediate vicinity (10-12 ft, give or take) they can also be destructive. We have a few Samoan Dwarfs, in two groups about 10 ft apart and between them we have a driveway, which we paved a number of years ago with asphalt. The roots from the coconuts are now causing severe buckling in the blacktop. Most palm roots don't do this kind of damage. Others with aggressive root systems: Roystoneas and Clinostigma samoense.

Bo-Göran

Bo-Göran,

Thanks for checking in on the thread. This is a potential issue that I must address.

A couple of points. The soil on my property is heavy clay and rock, the kind of soil that my hole diggers hate and tropical palms despise.  Because of this, I dig really big and deep holes and refill them with fast draining sand with a little organic matter. If the cocos follow the path of least resistance, they will shoot down several feet before they try to aggresively branch out into the clay (I hope.)

The second point is that they will be planted next to a steel reinforced concrete slab. I realize that your trees buckled your asphalt driveway, but there is quite a difference between reinforced concrete and asphalt paving.  I'm trying to locate a photo of the Newport Beach coconut to see if it has done any damage to the adjacent sidewalk.

I'd love to hear thoughts or comments regarding any of these points. This is all extremely helpful.

Ashton

[MattyB]

Ashton, I believe we had this discussion before (old forum) about Concrete vs. Asphalt (black top).  Do a search for it on the Archive.  I believe it was about Royals and their aggressive roots.  If I remember correctly, as you pointed out, the reinforced concrete never fell victim to the roots.  The Asphalts softer properties seemed to lend itself to buckling.

[bgl]

I agree, concrete is a different story. I don't have any personal experience with palm roots and concrete, but I don't think they'll cause any problems. Asphalt is much softer.

[palmazon]

(Darold Petty @ Dec. 18 2006,20:37)

QUOTE

I believe he used the water pipe method.

I think I read about it in High Times...

[happ]

Isn't the real issue lack of day time warmth not freezing temperatures for the growth of a coco at latitude 33/34N   ???

I believe the foothills 5-15 miles inland would be the best micro-climate.  The warmest winter nights plus summer heat  

If my self-inflicted disaster transplant of an areca catechu survives the winter then perhaps coco loco with take over    Narcotic nuts and all   :laugh:

[palmazon]

may a Cocos rupture your planter...

back on top, baby