How far N in Florida can coconut palms reliably grow?

[Coconutman]

Nice map.

[displaced_floridian]

Nice map. There may be some areas in interior SW Florida around Immokalee and Lehigh Acres that don't really support coconuts for more than a couple of years, the freezes are too often.

[Eric in Orlando]

There was a member of CFPACS who used to live in Cocoa Beach just north of the Minutemen Causeway west of A1A. He had told me his coconut palms survived the 1983 and 85 freezes but were all killed in the '89 freeze. He recorded 23F there. But he did have an Actinorhytis calapparia that survived the '89 freeze.

[Sandy Loam]

I am surprised to see any part of Hernando and Pasco counties highlighted on that map. Has anyone ever seen a coconut tree in those counties? I have not.

Flagler County would also be a challenge. I am not aware of any coconut trees there.

I too have heard that an inland strip down the middle of Florida can have occasional freezes down as far as eastern Collier County.

[palmsOrl]

I agree displaced Floridian. Some areas of SW FL are iffy and should really fall under the "northern-most" part of the range for growing Cocos, even though the map depicts these locations as being prime coconut growing territory. The map is meant to be general in most cases. Also, the purple shading represents the range where royal palms have a reasonable chance at long term survival, as they are significantly (though not substantially) more cold hardy than Cocos. I think royals have a good chance right on the coast up to Flagler County. Inland even a few miles, forget it. I know there are those who have tried and even had Cocos and Roystonea survive for a few years in the Saint Augustine/Jacksonville area. The royals on the water in Jacksonville may still be there, but overall, these are a no-go that far north.

[Jimbean]

no damage at all during the 89 freeze....maybe they were queens. and he didn't know any difference at the time. i believe melbourne airport registered 17 your area probably saw 23 or 24.....

Patrick Air Force Base was at 24F, Merritt Island I think was at 22F

[Jimbean]

that map is horrible btw

[Walt]

I think Palmsorl's map is for all intents and purposes correct, at least as he qualified it to be.

I can attest to the Archbold Biological Station cold pocket anomaly as I've been tracking temperatures there since I moved to Highlands County in 1997. I know for a fact ABS tied its all-time low temperature on January 5, 2001 when it recorded 13 degrees. On the coldest night in December of 2010 ABS recorded 15 degrees. I have the News -Sun weather page (scanned) showing the low temperatures.

Below is a screen shot I took several years ago on a radiational cooling night showing temperature gradients. The lightest blue being the coldest areas and the green to yellowish-green being the warmer areas. Note the water influence of the Gulf, Atlantic, and south and southeast end of Lake Okeechobee and the heat island effect of Orlando, Leesburg, and Lakeland.

[Walt]

The below graphic is for December 4, 2010 at 6 a.m., showing the lake effect on the southeast side of Lake Okeechobee, especially around the town of Pahokee where many palm nurseries are located.

[Walt]

Below is a graphic from the Florida Automated Weather Network (FAWN) that I consult to see what the temperature, dew points, etc., are at the many FAWN sites across Florida. On some radiational cooling nights the air stratification is very pronounced. In the case below at the FAWN site in Homestead, Fl., the air temperature difference between 60 cms above the ground to 10 meters above the ground was 10 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Sandy Loam]

Interesting. That was an extremely cold night. I remember it.

Of particular interest closer to us is that Leesburg stayed relatively warm. I was not aware that Leesburg was in a warm pocket. In fact, I thought the opposite was true.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Sandy Loam

[Walt]

These weather graphics very from night to night, but by and large the heat island effect in major metro areas hold, and are warmer than the outlying area, especially in the beginning of the night.

With respect to the Orlando heat island and airport temperature lows, the FAWN Avalon station is almost invariably colder. You can see the Avalon location in relation to Orlando proper in the below FAWN map:

http://fawn.ifas.ufl.edu/station/station.php?id=304(click on station location at link)

I once looked up the Avalon location on Google map and it appears to be in an outlying, wooded, rural-like location. I' not familiar with the outlying Orlando area but others here, like Eric, would probably know.

[Eric in Orlando]

Walt, that Avalon station is a cold spot. There are really warm microclimates nearby in Windermere but that is where a lot of lakes are. Avalaon is just out in the open.

[Eric in Orlando]

That is a good general map.

I consider 3 coconut zones in Florida;

1- this is where coconuts are permanent, long term. A 1989 type freeze events will damage, maybe kill a few, coastal areas from Ft. Myers to Jupiter and south

2- where coconuts can survive long term until a 1989-type freeze will kill most off but some survivors in this area after 1989, St. Petersburg to Cocoa Beach on the coasts, inland only on the SE side of Lake Okeechobee and maybe Lake Placid area where Walt has documented

3- where coconuts can be grown short term, even 10-15 years and get to fruiting size but get killed off by a freeze or even a long cool winter such as 2009-10, warmest microclimates around Orlando, west coast from Clearwater to New Port Richey and east coast from Cape Canaveral to New Smyrna Beach/Ponce Inlet

[Walt]

Walt, that Avalon station is a cold spot. There are really warm microclimates nearby in Windermere but that is where a lot of lakes are. Avalaon is just out in the open.

Eric,

Like I said, I looked up the Avalon location on Google map and it looked like a cold spot to me. Cold spot meaning an outlying area with no heat island and/or lake effect influence.

Further, almost all FAWN locations are in fact in rural areas, as that is the intent of the FAWN stations, to serve the agricultural community so as to more closely monitor the weather in those outlying areas. I recently read that some of the FAWN locations need to be relocated as they don't accurately represent low temperature predictions is many areas. Out here in deep inland Florida, the difference in nighttime low temperature (on a radiational cooling night) can vary up to 15 degrees (and more) between a lake front location vis a vis out in the boondocks.

[Walt]

That is a good general map.

I consider 3 coconut zones in Florida;

1- this is where coconuts are permanent, long term. A 1989 type freeze events will damage, maybe kill a few, coastal areas from Ft. Myers to Jupiter and south

2- where coconuts can survive long term until a 1989-type freeze will kill most off but some survivors in this area after 1989, St. Petersburg to Cocoa Beach on the coasts, inland only on the SE side of Lake Okeechobee and maybe Lake Placid area where Walt has documented

3- where coconuts can be grown short term, even 10-15 years and get to fruiting size but get killed off by a freeze or even a long cool winter such as 2009-10, warmest microclimates around Orlando, west coast from Clearwater to New Port Richey and east coast from Cape Canaveral to New Smyrna Beach/Ponce Inlet

Eric: To my knowledge no coconuts in Highlands County survived the '89 freeze, only royal Palms. Royal palms are the only ones I know for a fact that survived (and not all did). Many of them have trunk damage, others don't. When I first moved to Highlands County I could count on one hand the amount of coconut palms I observed (at least what I could see from the road, driving around). There just wasn't any availability of coconut palms back then. However, since 1997 when I moved here, coconut palms are being planted in large numbers and are now being stocked in many of the nurseries. There are now so many coconuts, foxtails, royals, solitare, etc., (mainly around lake front properties and properties within a block of the lakes) that if we get another '89 freeze, one will be able to make much better judgments as to just where the geographical limits are for such species.

I can only vouch absolutely that dozens of royal palms and huge Ficus benghalensis trees on the southeast shore of Lake Clay survived the '89 freeze, as I've met the family who owns the property these trees are on (and who actually planted them back in the '50s) and they told me about the freeze. There's also other exotic tropical trees (that I don't know the species of) growing on this same 13 acre parcel of land on the SE shore of Lake Clay. I took Bob Riffle in there back in June of 2003, but we didn't venture too far in as it's private property. Riffle told me from what he saw growing there it was a zone 10b location.

[Sandy Loam]

That is a good general map.

I consider 3 coconut zones in Florida;

1- this is where coconuts are permanent, long term. A 1989 type freeze events will damage, maybe kill a few, coastal areas from Ft. Myers to Jupiter and south

2- where coconuts can survive long term until a 1989-type freeze will kill most off but some survivors in this area after 1989, St. Petersburg to Cocoa Beach on the coasts, inland only on the SE side of Lake Okeechobee and maybe Lake Placid area where Walt has documented

3- where coconuts can be grown short term, even 10-15 years and get to fruiting size but get killed off by a freeze or even a long cool winter such as 2009-10, warmest microclimates around Orlando, west coast from Clearwater to New Port Richey and east coast from Cape Canaveral to New Smyrna Beach/Ponce Inlet

Eric, is there really a difference between Clearwater and St. Petersburg? Both Clearwater Beach and St. Petersburg beach seem to have lots of coconut trees, at least right near the sand dunes on the beach.

Attached photos -- the first photo contains palms (including coconuts) on Clearwater Beach, and the second photo shows palms (including coconuts) on St. Pete Beach.

[Eric in Orlando]

I always thought Clearwater was a bit colder that St. Petersburg. I know I saw dead coconuts around '96 in Clearwater. So maybe it should say from Tarpon Springs to New Port Richey.

[Eric in Orlando]

I revised it a bit;

3 coconut zones in Florida;

1- this is where coconuts are permanent, long term. A 1989 type freeze events will damage, maybe kill a few, coastal areas from Ft. Myers to Jupiter and south

2- where coconuts can survive long term until a 1989-type freeze will kill most off but some survivors in this area after 1989, St. Petersburg to Cocoa Beach on the coasts, inland only on the SE side of Lake Okeechobee

3- where coconuts can be grown short term, even 10-15 years and get to fruiting size but get killed off by a freeze or even a long cool winter such as 2009-10, warmest microclimates around Orlando, west coast from north of Clearwater to New Port Richey and east coast from Cape Canaveral to New Smyrna Beach/Ponce Inlet

[Jimbean]

I revised it a bit;

3 coconut zones in Florida;

1- this is where coconuts are permanent, long term. A 1989 type freeze events will damage, maybe kill a few, coastal areas from Ft. Myers to Jupiter and south

2- where coconuts can survive long term until a 1989-type freeze will kill most off but some survivors in this area after 1989, St. Petersburg to Cocoa Beach on the coasts, inland only on the SE side of Lake Okeechobee

3- where coconuts can be grown short term, even 10-15 years and get to fruiting size but get killed off by a freeze or even a long cool winter such as 2009-10, warmest microclimates around Orlando, west coast from north of Clearwater to New Port Richey and east coast from Cape Canaveral to New Smyrna Beach/Ponce Inlet

yep, that's mostly a true statement.

[Coconutman]

Where I used to live in New Port Richey, there were no coconut palms planted near any businesses, hotels, or any public places at all.Now, that doesn't mean they don't exist up there but maybe in private properties where they need protection from the cold.For example, I've tried a coconut up there and it barely made it through the cold winter.

[Coconutman]

My marginal coconut in NPR

[Yunder Wækraus]

The below graphic is for December 4, 2010 at 6 a.m., showing the lake effect on the southeast side of Lake Okeechobee, especially around the town of Pahokee where many palm nurseries are located.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Thanks for posting this. We had to take our child to the Native American dental clinic near Okeechobee, and after we were done, we ended up driving around the entire lake. It really does feel different between Pahokee and Clewiston. We visited the graves of my grandparents and great grandparents in Clewiston, and I noticed that they were next to the largest strangler figs I've ever seen that far north.

[Walt]

Thanks for posting this. We had to take our child to the Native American dental clinic near Okeechobee, and after we were done, we ended up driving around the entire lake. It really does feel different between Pahokee and Clewiston. We visited the graves of my grandparents and great grandparents in Clewiston, and I noticed that they were next to the largest strangler figs I've ever seen that far north.

When my wife and I first moved to Highlands County in late 1997 we decided to drive around most of Lake Okeechobee. We were driving from Labelle on RT. 80 and drove in to Clewiston. We then drove through South Bay, up to Belle Glade and up to Pohokee. I was surprised to see all the royal palms, coconut palms and big Ficus trees (various species). This flora pretty much flourished until we got to around Port Mayaca, when it looked like we dropped into zone 9b from 10a/b. Still, even close to the lake in Okeechobee their are some coconut palms. I've also driven extensively through Moorehaven. Moorehaven is far more tropical (in terms of royal palms and coconut palms) than Okeechobee but less tropical than Clewiston, South Bay, Belle Glade and Pahokee. Living in proximity of large bodies of water in Florida (at least in my area) is good for 1/2 to full USDA hardiness zone. The palms and tropical shrubs and trees (and the mature size of them) is testament of the higher USDA hardiness zones. I have found and have photos of Ficus benghalensis and Ficus elastica and Ficus microcarpa around some of the lakes here in Highlands County that rival any found in south Florida. The ones I found, I was told, where actually brought up here from south Florida in the early 1950s -- and they've stood the test of time and have grown huge.

[spockvr6]

Where I used to live in New Port Richey, there were no coconut palms planted near any businesses, hotels, or any public places at all.Now, that doesn't mean they don't exist up there but maybe in private properties where they need protection from the cold.For example, I've tried a coconut up there and it barely made it through the cold winter.

Yes, a Coconut is not likely to make it there for any length of time. Even the warmest parts of Tarpon Springs just south (and right on the water...literally sticking out into the Gulf) will not support them. Folks have tried (including myself).....but they wont make it medium/long term.

[Sandy Loam]

Larry, that does not surprise me because the air is dramatically colder as soon as you get just a slight hair north of Tampa, or even in the northern outskirts of Tampa, as you know. Dade City, Brooksville, etc. have some very cold nights in winter. The southern part of Tampa Bay is dramatically warmer.

I suppose that makes it official: Clearwater Beach is the upper northern limit for long-term coconut trees on the Gulf of Mexico coast.

[Eric in Orlando]

It appears there is at least one Cocos growing on Disney's Discovery Island. In case you aren't familiar with Discovery Island, it is an island in Bay Lake between the Contemporary Hotel and Ft. Wilderness. Originally it was called Treasure Island and had a pirate theme but in the late 1970s it was renamed Discovery Island and was a tropical island with different animals and birds. Disney closed in in 1999 after Animal Kingdom opened in '98. Since then it has been left abandoned. I saw a recent youtube video and there is a coconut palm growing along the shore along with some Copernicia alba. This is on the south shore of the island and the island is in the southern section of a large lake.

Here is a pic I took of the scene in the video. I'm not sure when this was taken but looks to be in the last few years.

[Eric in Orlando]

Here is a closeup of satellite photo from Bing Maps. It says 2015 on Bing. You can see the Cocos and Copernicia alba. Also to the left of the C. alba are a grouping of Bismarckia nobilis. Between the Bismarckia and Copernicia is what I believe to be a Hyphaene, I remember seeing the Hyphaene from a boat a few years ago along with the other palms. Everything there is surviving with no care now but the island is fairly moist.

[SubTropicRay]

Some Coconuts survived the 2009/2010 winter in Tampa's Interbay area but this was due to proximity of water, buildings etc. The larger specimens standing in open, inland areas perished. One had been in the ground since 1990.

In many ways, the 2009-2010 winter was worse than 1989. The persistent (11 day) cold wipes away microclimates. It's debatable whether a more prolonged but less severe cold snap is better or worse than colder low temps within a much more brief cold invasion.

[Zeeth]

Veering off topic the slightest bit, I have some information on a question that wasn't ever addressed from another thread.

I wonder if these coconuts at Selby Gardens survived the '89 freeze,

Eric in Orlando asked this question back in 2008 and I have the answer for him: Yes! Here's what someone in Plant Records at Selby told me:

"Keith, According to our records the palms were planted sometime between 1986-1988, our records do not indicate what cultivar these palms are other than they are a lethal resistance variety. The other coconut palm growing among the mangroves was not planted and was the result of natural dissemination."

[Yunder Wækraus]

Wow! So these palms survived '89 and '10. I want a coconut from them ☺

[palmsOrl]

Some Coconuts survived the 2009/2010 winter in Tampa's Interbay area but this was due to proximity of water, buildings etc. The larger specimens standing in open, inland areas perished. One had been in the ground since 1990.

In many ways, the 2009-2010 winter was worse than 1989. The persistent (11 day) cold wipes away microclimates. It's debatable whether a more prolonged but less severe cold snap is better or worse than colder low temps within a much more brief cold invasion.

The 1989 event was worse here because it got into the low 20s areawide, with normally colder areas in the teens. Those low 20s wiped out a lot of zone 9b vegetation as well. Something we did not see in 2010. Most of my 10a palms barely survived 2010 and I am confident this would not have been the case in 1989.

[Eric in Orlando]

Good to know those Selby coconuts survived the '89 freeze!

[SubTropicRay]

In 1989, my lowest low was 24F. In 2010, my lowest low was 26F. The 2010 event had 11 consecutive very cold days including 2 others below freezing. 1989 was 3 consecutive nights below freezing but was preceded and followed by warm weather. The coldest day of 2010 was preceded by 8 days of well below normal temps and 2 days of cold afterwards. Given a choice, I'd choose neither. I don't think 1989 was that much worse if at all. On a scale of 1-10, 1989 was a 10 for 3 days while 2010 was an 8 for 11 days. Then consider the 1989-1990 winter records show it was a warm winter other than the one big event. 2009-2010 was the second coldest winter in Florida after 1957-1958. Aside from the 11 day stretch in 2010, the rest of the winter was cold too.

[sarasota alex]

Good to know those Selby coconuts survived the '89 freeze!

I believe most of them were cut down in one of the "palmicide" events there. I'll check next time I'm there

[palmsOrl]

Good point Ray. This really makes apparent how different severe freeze events affect the east and west sides of the state to significantly different degrees in many cases. The 1989 event must have not affected the west coast quite as badly.

As for Orlando, I have seen photos of wholesale carnage of zone 9 plants at Leu Gardens after the '89 event. No such damage occurred after 2010, though most zone 10 stuff took a major hit or was killed. The really tender stuff was eliminated completely. The Downtown Orlando reporting stations never saw below upper 20s in early 2010, but as mentioned, the duration was insane. It made for the most beautiful spring I ever remember for temperate flowering plants and other vegetation though.

[Bill H2DB]

Good to know those Selby coconuts survived the '89 freeze!

I believe most of them were cut down in one of the "palmicide" events there. I'll check next time I'm there

Here is a Google Maps view from Bayshore Dr , looking sse towards Marie Selby , and when zoomed in , it looks like they were there in 2014. Look just

to the right of the Brownish street light pole .

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.328959,-82.541009,3a,41.9y,176.2h,93.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKopUDSreKXCVi5dnaeV66A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also , just to the south on Harbor Dr , I quickly found this :

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.32076,-82.543047,3a,75y,225.1h,89.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sN1MJ_o2boIAn3I06wMoITw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Eric in Orlando]

Good point Ray. This really makes apparent how different severe freeze events affect the east and west sides of the state to significantly different degrees in many cases. The 1989 event must have not affected the west coast quite as badly.

As for Orlando, I have seen photos of wholesale carnage of zone 9 plants at Leu Gardens after the '89 event. No such damage occurred after 2010, though most zone 10 stuff took a major hit or was killed. The really tender stuff was eliminated completely. The Downtown Orlando reporting stations never saw below upper 20s in early 2010, but as mentioned, the duration was insane. It made for the most beautiful spring I ever remember for temperate flowering plants and other vegetation though.

Around here the 12/89 freeze was much more devastating than 2009-10. The lows in Orlando were around 19-20F for 2 days. In 2009-10 the absolute lowest was 29F but there was 12 nights below 32. The '89 winter saw zone 9 plants were killed or severely injured; citrus, queen palms, pygmy dates, jacarandas, avocados, Casuarina, etc. Many Rhapis excelsa were killed to the roots, Washingtonia robusta and Phoenix canariensis actually had some burn.

The only thing killed or severely injured in 2009-10 were tender zone 10/marginals; Adonidia, Cocos, Ravenala, etc. Even then there were some survivors.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

For the record, I'm smack dab in the middle of Polk county and we have Royals here that looked perfectly fine after the two bad winters of 09/10 and 10/11. Of course, my neighborhood wasn't so lucky as we don't have a good microclimate. But its worth noting that there is a zone north of your delineated maps where "will persist for a long time in favorable microclimates" would be appropriate. We even have big banyans here near the south lake shores. But all the Cocos died those years. If I were on the water, I'd have replaced them (twice, probably once in summer of '10 then again in '11) knowing that it would probably be a while until we had coconut killers again. We've even been considering planting a Royal here hoping our frost hole escapes a killer freeze for a couple of winters. They aren't that expensive and we'd go into it knowing they aren't going to persist for decades.