How far N in Florida can coconut palms reliably grow?

[Zeeth]

Good to know those Selby coconuts survived the '89 freeze!

I believe most of them were cut down in one of the "palmicide" events there. I'll check next time I'm there

They were still there went I went on the 4th of July, as was the one growing naturally in the mangroves.

[sarasota alex]

Good to know those Selby coconuts survived the '89 freeze!

I believe most of them were cut down in one of the "palmicide" events there. I'll check next time I'm there

They were still there went I went on the 4th of July, as was the one growing naturally in the mangroves.

I was wrong. These two are still there. I distinctly remember a couple of coconut stumps when I discovered a bunch of other palms cut down. I'll try to walk around and remember it straight.

[Jimbean]

What we could do is create an interactive map and plot the locations of the 2010 survivors. 2010 would be a more practical benchmark since 1989 happened too long ago.

[Yunder Wækraus]

What we could do is create an interactive map and plot the locations of the 2010 survivors. 2010 would be a more practical benchmark since 1989 happened too long ago.

I'd love to see that map

[Jimbean]

quite frankly I think we are beating a dead horse.

Let's see, in Brevard County you would have plots up to the Barge Canal in Cape Canaveral and further north in Merritt Island, maybe up to the Space Center. I know of at least a couple of survivors in the Cocoa Village area. The area north of 528 and west of US1 I think is out of the question.

[Jimbean]

Also, in West Melbourne, and possibly in Palm Bay.

So it would be the areas roughly along US1 and south, from Cocoa and downwards, of course beach side were there is a population, westward in the Melbroune area, and on Merritt Island. So that would leave the question if it were possible on North Merritt Island and Mosquito Lagoon area, which is not verifible. I know that even southern Volusia County is a no-go.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Jimbean

[Walt]

I wonder how far north in Florida one could grow a coconut palm with protection of the trunk and meristem -- like I do mine. I've had my coconut palm for at least 10 years (from about a seven gallon pot size with no trunk). My coconut has been a slow grower, so for the first few winters I could actually bundle the fronds and mummy wrap it. I also used a 40 LF heating cable to provide a little supplemental heat. I found with it totally mummy wrapped it suffered no frost injury, but I can't recall now what my ultimate low temperatures were during those first few winters.

Once the palm got too big to bundle and wrap I started using a force air propane heater to blow on it, but my small heater wasn't near enough to totally protect the foliage -- just not enough air volume and BTUs.

I finally gave up on the futility of trying to protect the entire palm. I then just concentrated on protecting the trunk and meristem. For that I used a 40 feet thermostatic heating cable, spirally wound around the trunk and up and through the lower petioles and meristem area. But the petioles had to first have rags, towels, etc., wrapped around them so as to keep the cable from directly contacting them, otherwise after hours and hours the petioles would get burn marks from the cables. It's not that the cables run so hot to the touch, rather, the tissue just damaged from too long a prolonged heat. But that's not the case for the trunk. The cables can directly contact the trunk. And around the trunk I either insulated over the cables with heavy mover's quilts or padded mattress covers. Using this method my coconut palms have survived the worst freezes I've had. The 11 nights in December of 2010, about six nights in the 20s, didn't kill my coconut palm. Spring fronds were of normal size. It did take about two years to grow back a full (by central Florida standards, not tropical climate standards) canopy, but my palm looked respectable by summer's end. My philosophy is, a coconut palm with less than full canopy is better than no coconut palm at all.

What I'm getting at is, how far north a coconut palm can grow with trunk and meristem protection before it won't survive due to too cold soil temperatures (like in So. Cal.) and possibly too low an average air temperature. Too cold soil temperatures have never been an issue for me -- but it may be an issue in north Florida.

Some here may recall I gave an Archontophoenix cunninghamiana to a buddy of mine who lives on the St. John River in East Palatka, Florida. Being right on the east side of the river his nighttime lows are actually warmer than mine on the coldest radiational cooling nights. But his daytime highs are much cooler during the winter months. That's okay, obviously, (his cunninghamiana has lasted 10 years now) for the Archontophoenix genus, but maybe not Cocos nucifera.

I know if I lived in north Florida I would try to get a coconut palm to survive there by giving it the protection I described above.

[empireo22]

I know of a fruiting coconut in west melbourne off of dairy rd that made it through 2010....also there are several fruiting coconuts in Viera west of 95 but I'm not sure if they were there before 2010. being Viera it wouldn't surprise me if they were planted with 15ft of trunk.

there is a nice Jamaican Tall growing in a field in Palm Bay just west of US1.

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.034783,-80.582703,3a,43.5y,222.13h,101.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0cwSUHqrLUXG7rko0IVw1g!2e0!5s20071101T000000!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en

[Zeeth]

Here's the farthest inland coconut that I know of in Manatee county that's pre-2010.

https://goo.gl/lkZJd3

[Eric in Orlando]

In the Orlando area there are coconuts that survived 2009-10 at Se World and Sea World's Discovery Cove. There is the one on Disney's Discovery Island. And I have heard there are survivors in Orlando in the Lake Conway area and Windermere. All the other ones I knew of in town perished.

I have seen a few coconuts in Rockledge along the Indian River that survived, south of Rockledge Gardens.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Did any coconuts die on the nameless barrier island with Satellite Beach, Indialantic, etc.? Most of the trees I'm seeing in neighborhoods between 192 and Eau Gallie look way older than 5 years.

[Jimbean]

If I remember correctly, none of the cooconuts south of Cocoa Beach had hardly any damage on them at all. I am pretty sure they all survived in Cocoa Beach and Cape Canaveral.

[Jimbean]

Any in Volusia County? Or how about the West coast, Pasco County?

[Bill H2DB]

Any in Volusia County? Or how about the West coast, Pasco County?

Just before the 2010 event , I had seen several quite good sized Cocos along the west side of the river along Riverside Dr etc , in

the Edgewater area .

i checked the area about a year ago or so , and did not see any survivors . There's a good microclimate there though, and much

generally tropical stuff is there.

There also was a good sized cocos along the N Causeway area in NSB , but it perished as well. It was well situated on the South

side of a fairly tall house . That one has been replaced .

The latter part of winter brings rather cool daytime highs in Mid and North Volusia in the areas near the Ocean / ICW , and that is a factor.

Much better high temps are just a short distance inland , but then those areas have much lower lows .

In the BIG Freeze events , high winds make all of that moot , and in '62 , '83 , '85 etc even the Beachside suffered much . Too fast of a wind doesn't

have enough time to pick up much heat from the ICW , and in those freezes , the wind vector is not passing over the ocean in the early damaging phases .

[Eric in Orlando]

There had been a number of coconuts planted south of Daytona Beach down in the Ponce Inlet area before 2009, also in New Smyrna Beach. I haven't been over there since to see if any survived. I had seen some along the Indian River in Titusville but these did not survive.

[Bill H2DB]

I've pretty well scoured the Ponce Inlet area , and cannot find any " older " Cocos .

It's pretty sure that some newbies have been planted , at least of the Box Store sizes , since they always

have them in the Spring .

The 2010 event was difficult indeed , but in my 55 year+ palm interest , I have never seen any long term

success in this area. Large ones from south Fla have been planted occasionally directly on the Ocean , and

at various places on or near SR A1A . They succumb . it is winter cold here , and in no way does the official weather station ( at

the DBIA ) represent the area well . It is colder than most of town at night , and warmer in the day , by a good margin .

Despite that , we have a period in most winters in which the average high East of Nova Rd , can be in the mid to high 50's , and

the lows averaging about 45-49 . It beats tropicals up .

This has been a remarkable recent run of time, free of a devastating Freeze , but '62 , '76-'77 , '81 , '83 , '85 , '89 , '92-'93 etc say to me that

about SR 46 ( in pockets) is the real limit for any long term hope .

[empireo22]

Did any coconuts die on the nameless barrier island with Satellite Beach, Indialantic, etc.? Most of the trees I'm seeing in neighborhoods between 192 and Eau Gallie look way older than 5 years.

in 2010 maybe 15% died beachside most ones that were healthy (well watered and fertilized) did better. and the talls recovered much quicker. I would say all of them had atleast 50% defoliation some much more and still made it.

[Jimbean]

Did any coconuts die on the nameless barrier island with Satellite Beach, Indialantic, etc.? Most of the trees I'm seeing in neighborhoods between 192 and Eau Gallie look way older than 5 years.

in 2010 maybe 15% died beachside most ones that were healthy (well watered and fertilized) did better. and the talls recovered much quicker. I would say all of them had atleast 50% defoliation some much more and still made it.

hmm, I remember driving around and not seeing much damage at all, but that was mostly along A1A. Even the neighborhoods looked fine.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Why was 2010 less severe beachside than 1989?

[Jimbean]

If I had to take a guess for the east coast, I would say beachside from about where the shuttle landing site is. There are no long term survivors (pre-1962) where Haulover Canal is.

[Jimbean]

Why was 2010 less severe beachside than 1989?

1.) Increase in urban heat island over the last 20 years.

2.) Simply a different kind of freeze, although longer lasting and cooler, not as cold with regard to absolute lows.

[Yunder Wækraus]

#1 wouldn't apply to my area. I don't think anything new has been built on my street in 30 years. #2 seems right, and I like to know more details. For example, must a freeze have a different source/cause to beach the barrier island citadel?

[Jimbean]

higher wind speeds mitigate the microclimate effect.

[Jimbean]

Also, longer, cooler winters do it too. So basically you will not like those stormy winters, like 1977 or 2010.

[Bill H2DB]

Why was 2010 less severe beachside than 1989?

All of the answers are true , because each freeze event has different accompanying circumstances.

Factors preceding the event , ( Temps , available moisture , late or early freeze [ affects canopy and soil temp. etc ] , windy or radiational , etc )

all give each one a personality of its own . If the Great White North is snow covered , how long will it persist? Is it a super High dome with isobars

stretching to the Arctic ? Where is the Jet Stream ? High cirrus clouds reducing inter-day temps ?

Even little things like the time of day that a front passes thru have effects. Is there a secondary push of cold air to follow ?

The 2 coasts of peninsular Florida are a big deal for each side , and the vector of the isotopes can be a big factor .

For instance , here in Daytona a dead north wind will pass over ocean waters , due to the approx 15 deg NW slant of the coast .

If the vector shifts just that little amount back to the west , it is bad news NE is always good here. Same effect on the west side , just that NW is better there .

I've fought them all for many years , and I only give token protection now , but I am going to sacrifice another Coco or 2 anyway , because if I don't

do it , someone will just eat them anyway .

[IHB1979]

I think #1 has occurred in our area Yunder. Maybe not on your street but in general there's more density now than 30 years ago.

Regarding the source/cause, it seems every event and it's variables make each one very unique. All you need for beachside to freeze is a strong enough arctic air mass to drop down unimpeded to our area. The last frost at my place was 2010. It was light, but it does happen here.

[The7thLegend]

The legendary Saint Augustine Coconut Palm survived years without protection until the epic 2010 winter.

[empireo22]

Jim,

Im not trying to be pessimistic or zone bash. but there was definetly damage from the 2010 freeze. and if you rode by shortly after the freeze it probably hadn't shown up yet. here is a link to a yard that took a beating from the freeze. in that yard there is a mix of jamaican talls and malaysian dwarfs. the malayans took a harder beating and many died in that yard and in the area. the link is in Melbourne Beach and has nearly the same climate as Indiatlantic or Satellite Beach.

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.065442,-80.561062,3a,90y,21.85h,98.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQgOQ5QvXmslcsS_oQe2BVw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DQgOQ5QvXmslcsS_oQe2BVw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D100%26h%3D80%26yaw%3D62.761513%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[Yunder Wækraus]

Jim,

Im not trying to be pessimistic or zone bash. but there was definetly damage from the 2010 freeze. and if you rode by shortly after the freeze it probably hadn't shown up yet. here is a link to a yard that took a beating from the freeze. in that yard there is a mix of jamaican talls and malaysian dwarfs. the malayans took a harder beating and many died in that yard and in the area. the link is in Melbourne Beach and has nearly the same climate as Indiatlantic or Satellite Beach.

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.065442,-80.561062,3a,90y,21.85h,98.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQgOQ5QvXmslcsS_oQe2BVw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DQgOQ5QvXmslcsS_oQe2BVw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D100%26h%3D80%26yaw%3D62.761513%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Yeah, if you Google map Washington Ave, Indialantic, I think you'll see photos from the first half of 2011. My neighbour's coconut looks like it's coming back from a tough spell in the photo (at least to my eyes)

[Sandy Loam]

The generally accepted northern limit for healthy and large coconut trees may be the beach at Cape Canaveral, but I couldn't resist posting a photo taken out of my window recently near the border between Martin County and northern Palm Beach County, Florida. As you can see, there are coconut trees and giant seagrape trees everywhere along the coast (click photo to enlarge).

This region may not be very far north in coconut terms, but it is still 150 km north of Miami Beach and 400 km north of Key West, Florida. The coconuts were all looking large and healthy.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Sandy Loam

[displaced_floridian]

How far is that from Jupiter?

[Sandy Loam]

It was at Jupiter, right beneath the Martin County line.

[Yunder Wækraus]

There are wild seashore everywhere up here on the Brevard coast. Do they stop with the coconuts and mangroves as you go north?

[Walt]

It was at Jupiter, right beneath the Martin County line.

Since the location was almost at the Martin County-Palm Beach County line, I figured it was one of the condos on South Beach Road (Rt. 707); I have relatives that live at the Ocean Sound condo. But I did a Google search (looking at the window configuration of the building across the way from where the photo was taking, looking north) and they don't match up with the south windows of any of the condos on Jupiter Island, along South Beach Road that I could tell. So I'm scratching my head as to just where it's at.

[ck_in_fla]

There are wild seashore everywhere up here on the Brevard coast. Do they stop with the coconuts and mangroves as you go north?

I think you are asking about Sea Grape. In New Smyrna Beach, Sea Grape are everywhere. But, as previously stated in this forum, coconut palms are very very rare.

[Sandy Loam]

It was at Jupiter, right beneath the Martin County line.

Since the location was almost at the Martin County-Palm Beach County line, I figured it was one of the condos on South Beach Road (Rt. 707); I have relatives that live at the Ocean Sound condo. But I did a Google search (looking at the window configuration of the building across the way from where the photo was taking, looking north) and they don't match up with the south windows of any of the condos on Jupiter Island, along South Beach Road that I could tell. So I'm scratching my head as to just where it's at.

_________

The hotel was called Jupiter Beach Resort & Spa.

As for the discussion about seagrape trees, they are wild in the Tampa Bay area, but they do not come up as far north as Cedar Key. They probably could survive there because even I am growing two Seagrapes in Gainesville, FL. They are sold at every HD for about $12.95, so are worth the experiment.

I have never seen seagrape trees as far north as St. Augustine, but I thought I had seen them as far north as the Cape Canaveral region (in habitat). In any case, I have not seen them grow giant in Tampa Bay like they grow in South Florida. They become massive thirty foot tall monsters behind some of the beach sand dunes of South Florida. Boca Raton beaches have some good examples of this.

[Bill H2DB]

Here is a link regarding Seagrape from U of F .

In the Daytona area , they can become large between big freezes , and always come back strongly from

the extensive root system after the inevitable . . They love the beachside .

http://lee.ifas.ufl.edu/Hort/GardenPubsAZ/Seagrape.pdf

[Yunder Wækraus]

There are big ones 4 minutes from my house on the beach, but I'm guessing they are post 1989

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

We have some really large sea grapes along the South Texas coast at South Padre Island and at North Padre Island. I have 5.5 ft. tall one that is abut 8 or 9 ft. wide in my front yard and another in a 3 gal. pot that I grew from seed from a local sea grape here in Corpus Christi. I have seen some at the island that are about 20 to 30 ft. tall! Sea grapes are the perfect companion trees to plant with coconut palms. I just wish we had a lot more coconut palms here. I would like to see about a 100 to 200 coconut palms at South Padre Island over the next couple of years.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Yeah, I really like them. I've planted one small sea grape already. I love that their fruit is edible.