TROPICAL MISSOURI

[Plott Palm Trees]

Hey I live in Columbia Missouri and I am growing Cold Hardy Palms Here, Do You Think it is possible for them to thrive here???
Long Story Short...

That is it, don't wanna piss anybody off.

[Mark Heath]

Hey I live in Columbia Missouri and I am growing Cold Hardy Palms Here, Do You Think it is possible for them to thrive here???

Long Story Short...

That is it, don't wanna piss anybody off.

I am not sure, you are the first person i have heard of in Missouri that grows palms! Good luck! I am not sure what certain palms will take your climate, what zone are you? I visited Cedar Hills which is about 45 minutes from ST.Louis to see friends there. Alot of cool people but man was it cold!!! First time i had seen snow, my friends who live there were laughing at me because i would'nt leave the heated home for any great length of time!

How long have you had them??? What kinds??

[Plott Palm Trees]

I have heard of Cedar Hills and I am only a few hours away from St. Louis.

Well, yes there are not too many trying to grow them here, but I am new to it really...I live in Columbia Missouri which is dab in the middle of MO. I am Zone 6a. I am very restricted to what I can actually grow. I have 16 Windmill Palms, 6 Needle Palms, 175 Dwarf Palmettos, 5 Sabals, & 4 Saw Palmettos.

lol- yeah, it does get pretty cold here, on record for the last year was -9 degrees F low. I have had my Palms since Palm Sunday 2010.

I plan on actually taking my yard and transforming it into a Beach. I will remove all the grass and pour sand -throw seashells & starfishes in there and one day a beach ball court.

I am excited to purchase my first ever 10-12 foot windmill Palm today!!! how cool will that be...

I know that some of these Palms will survive low freezing weather of -20 degrees. Making them fulproof where I am at.

[peachy]

Eric we have member of palmtalk who grows palms in minnisota or somewhere up that way, who posts photos of frozen wastes with palms under boxes. Another member from texas (or kansas) (one of those places with armadillos and snow) who has posted photos of his cold hardy palms buried under snow. Then there are the palmophiles in Europe, growing palms outdoors in places like UK, Holland, Sweden and probably a few more I cant remember. There is one guy in New York with a garden that could pass as tropical. Wherever you live there are some types of palms that will thrive for you, many more that survive for you and few who appear to be okay for a couple of years then croak just to keep you desperate for more. Welcome to palmtalk.

Peachy

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I've actually heard of palms rumored in Missouri... I think somewhere around your parts... maybe in the burbs of STL... The guy builds a big hothouse over his yard every winter to keep things alive through the cold. I vividly recall seeing pics of Butia someone took in Arkansas. From what I remember when I lived both places, the weather in Cape Girardeau and Little Rock were about the same, maybe just more humidity in Cape, bein on the river and all.

[happ]

As Peachy pointed out, there are several members growing palms in regions north of your location; both in America and Europe. There was even a photo of a well-protected palm growing in extreme southern Alaska. Are you acquainted with this organization?: http://www.cloudforest.com/northwest/

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I know MOBOT has an awesome palm collection... You might enjoy a trip over there!

Check this link out - Palms in Joplin, Missouri!

[PALM MOD]

I moved this topic from the Weather Forum as it has more to do with growing palms than the weather. It will get much more exposure and responses here.

[John in Andalucia]

I know MOBOT has an awesome palm collection... You might enjoy a trip over there!

Check this link out - Palms in Joplin, Missouri!

Looks like Joplin has palm growing down to a fine art! Where is Terry these days?

[AggiePalms]

Hey, I like your attempt to grow and sell palms up there. I know there are Sabal minors in protected areas (creek valleys, etc.) of N. Arkansas and Oklahoma, where it probably gets nearly as cold on average. The Rhapidophyllum and S. minor stand a realistic chance, especially if you put them in a warm microclimate..near a south facing wall, or anything to give a slight hint of warmth and cut off the cold winter winds. Good luck on the others; they are more risky, but hey, I am growing tropicals in 8b/9a so nothing reasonable is impossible with a bit of hard work. Oh, and cover the palms with blankets, Christmas lights, etc. in the coldest intervals, that helps a lot. My big Queen is the only one that survided a vicious cold snap here a few years ago, and it was completely wrapped in pink Owens insulation. Tell us more as it gets colder up there.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Eric,

I grew up in St Louis and killed plenty of palms (all of the species you mention, for example). That -20 hardiness is pretty much bologna in my opinion. (There is a Needle or two near Knoxville, TN that survived that low, supposedly). The only palm thats lived in my parents yard in Smithton, IL (2.5 hours east of Columbia, MO and just across the river from St Louis) is Rhapidiophyllum hystrix (needle palm). It's been in the ground unprotected since March 2007. However, I think its in decline because its smaller now than when planted. For the record, I'm not sure it's seen a temp lower than 0F since being planted. I sent seed of the Sabal minor from SE Oklahoma last winter but I don't know of any plants yet. There is someone in Kansas City that reportedly has had luck with the OK provenance of S. minor. Good luck and be prepared to protect this winter. I guarantee newly planted palms will die the first year unless protected in your climate. We love your enthuiasm but be prepared to protect anytime between Dec 1 and March 15.

Oh yea, I have a ton of seed of the S. minor from OK again this year. If you want the seed, send me a Private message and I'll mail them to you. They aren't quite ripe yet but will be in a month or two.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

Eric,

I grew up in St Louis and killed plenty of palms (all of the species you mention, for example). That -20 hardiness is pretty much bologna in my opinion. (There is a Needle or two near Knoxville, TN that survived that low, supposedly). The only palm thats lived in my parents yard in Smithton, IL (2.5 hours east of Columbia, MO and just across the river from St Louis) is Rhapidiophyllum hystrix (needle palm). It's been in the ground unprotected since March 2007. However, I think its in decline because its smaller now than when planted. For the record, I'm not sure it's seen a temp lower than 0F since being planted. I sent seed of the Sabal minor from SE Oklahoma last winter but I don't know of any plants yet. There is someone in Kansas City that reportedly has had luck with the OK provenance of S. minor. Good luck and be prepared to protect this winter. I guarantee newly planted palms will die the first year unless protected in your climate. We love your enthuiasm but be prepared to protect anytime between Dec 1 and March 15.

Oh yea, I have a ton of seed of the S. minor from OK again this year. If you want the seed, send me a Private message and I'll mail them to you. They aren't quite ripe yet but will be in a month or two.

Keith, I was going to say something very similar. When I read that -20 hardiness I thought the same thing. Even the hardiest palms will likely fry in that kind of cold. There is a reason Windmills are rated hardy to zone 7, and needle palms to zone 6. I know there is that one report of a palm surviving a -17 reading, and that is probably true. One thing people tend to forget is DURATION of cold matters as much, or even more so than the actual cold event itself. I think if we had palms that were hardy down to -20, we would be seeing them all over in much colder/ farther north places than where we see them regularly. I live in a zone 7B/ 8A (depending on where exactly you are) and Windmills are fairly marginal in places that see the 7b/7a type temps, UNLESS they are fully grown and FULLY established. Then they are almost fool proof. The trick for zone 7 is getting them big/ established enough.

I love the enthusiasm too, but honestly, in your climate, most things are going to need fairly heavy protection. If they are young and / or not established well, then most likely things will die. There was a hotel in Iowa that attempted windmills and needles two years running (last year was the final year) and both years, even with protection they fried. Granted, I really question their protection methods, but still. Not saying that it cant be done, but for your climate Eric you are definitely going to need some rather serious winter protection, and that is going to take some serious amount of work. I know there are people as far as Minnesota that grow Windmills to maturity, but they also HEAVILY protect them by building houses around them each winter and keeping the climate inside regulated. Something you may want to pass along to your customers is that these palms will survive, but with PROTECTION. Perhaps you could integrate the protection part into your business even as a service you provide. I think selling someone a palm and telling them that it is going to survive your winters with no or little protection though will end up costing you more than you bring in in the end. Customers will come back and want a replacement because "well you said it would survive our winters"...etc. Just offering a suggestion. I think your climate may require more than just xmas lights and / or newspaper. Probably a tube at least, with lights or heating cables. One word about Xmas lights that I do not thing is discussed enough. Much of the xmas lights that are now sold are LED (Light Emitting Diode) lights. You do NOT want to use those for any sort of protection for plants, as they give of very little to almost no heat. The now becoming "old" incandescent Xmas lights are what need to be used as those give off sufficient heat to provide the protection plants need. LED lighting is great, and it saves on tons of money, but for protection purposes, they are basically useless. I started talking about this to people years ago (5 years now) when I worked at the U.S. Dept Of energy. We knew well ahead of the public that LEDs were going to become more of a standard for many things, including Xmas lights. LED's were in use in our offices and Xmas displays at DOE headquarters where I worked in downtown D.C. as early as 2005 that I know of, and possibly earlier. Anyway...

The Palms you hear about / see growing in far northern latitudes (places like Vancouver, Canada, Sochi Russia, Switzerland..etc) you have to remember are almost all places where they are zone 7b and above, usually more like zone 8b or 9a. I have been to Vancouver, BC many many times, and love seeing all the palms there and in Victoria BC, but it never gets "cold" there. They are a zone 8b easily. They rarely ever see snow, and even going below 32F does not happen all that frequently. It may stay in the low 40s F alot, in winter, but they just do not get the biting, freezing cold very often.

Really do love your enthusiasm and LOVE that you are spreading the word about cold hardy palms! I wish you all the best and success! Keep us posted on things.

[Matt N- Dallas]

I am from Kansas City, Mo (z6). I tried s. louisiana, s. minor (various forms) and needle palm there. The needle faded away after about 3 years. I have successful, long term fruiting s. minor growing in KC that I left behind and at relatives homes there. By far, s. minor 'mc curtain co OK' has been the hardiest. These have been growing in Wichita, KS for years also. I think the duration of cold in Mo is more damaging to palms than the ultimate lows. I've had palms come through a quick dip to -8*, but were later damaged by temps that hovered between 10*-20* for a week. Palms are possible there, I think the only one w/o protection that will make it is a grown (large) s. minor mccurtain. Size really does matter in terms of cold hardiness.

[velutina]

Where did you hear windmill palms can survive -20F??? Since your palms haven't been through a winter yet, I think you may be in for a surprise! You might have better luck producing a tropical look with bananas.

Just checked out your website. Not sure what you're paying for your palms but it might be too much. I can get windmills here that are the same size as your $200 "Teen Windmill Palm" for $7 here. With shipping, I bet I could ship them to you for under $25. And thats buying them for retail price.

Edited August 21, 2010 by velutina

[NBTX11]

Another member from texas (or kansas) (one of those places with armadillos and snow) who has posted photos of his cold hardy palms buried under snow.

South (and usually central) Texas generally does not get snow at all. I've live here since 2004 and have yet to see one flake (although did get some ice one year). Check out the recent thread of South Texas palms and you'll see large royals and a handful of coconuts in the RGV. My average highs in Dec - Feb (winter) range from 62-71F (about 17-21C)

[NBTX11]

By the way, I think the only area in MO where you might some luck with hardy palm would be around the Joplin area or the Bootheel. both of these areas have more in common with the south, such as Arkansas, Tenn. etc. than the rest of MO. You could probably get away with what you have mentioned there.

[velutina]

Here's a good zone map. It looks like Columbia, MO is zone 5b (-10 to -15). Joplin is zone 6a (-5 to -10).

Here are the hardiness numbers I have frequently heard (feel free to correct):

Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm) -10F

Trachycarpus fortunei 0F

Sabal minor -5F

Nannorrhops ritchiana -5F

Trithrinax campestris (blue needle) 5F

http://www.aston-simms.com/DSN/wwwastonsimmscom/Content/Images/USZoneMap.jpg

[NBTX11]

Here's a good zone map. It looks like Columbia, MO is zone 5b (-10 to -15). Joplin is zone 6a (-5 to -10).

Here are the hardiness numbers I have frequently heard (feel free to correct):

Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm) -10F

Trachycarpus fortunei 0F

Sabal minor -5F

Nannorrhops ritchiana -5F

Trithrinax campestris (blue needle) 5F

http://www.aston-simms.com/DSN/wwwastonsimmscom/Content/Images/USZoneMap.jpg

Joplin is warmer than 6a. 1) According to this map they are about 10 miles from 6b, and 2) This is the infamous "cold" 1990 USDA map which included 12 years of some of the coldest weather the past century. Also, the bootheel of MO is as warm as the northern portions of AL, MS, and GA, and warmer than Nashville TN.

Edited August 21, 2010 by syersj

[velutina]

Do you have a more accurate zone map?

[NBTX11]

Do you have a more accurate zone map?

http://www.arborday.org/media/zones.cfm

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

Do you have a more accurate zone map?

http://www.arborday....media/zones.cfm

I remember there being a map, I think it was done in 2003? Anyway, The map linked above is way more accurate than the 1990 map IMHO, but if this 2006 is a revision of the 2003 it seems they are again erring on the side of colder. Below is a small piece of the 2003 arborday map if I remember correctly. It accurately depicts the urban heat islands that encompass the major cities of my area (Washington / Baltimore) with a zone 8 bubble around each. In my growing experience, I have found this to be true. Many plants that are rated hardy to zone 8, survive where I am. Within that heat island, and along the immediate shores of the tidal Potomac River coastal plain tend a good deal warmer than say outside the beltway or above the fall line in the piedmont. Now if the Potomac freezes over, that is a different story, but that has not happened since the 80s. There was some ice on it in 1996, and last winter, but only chunks. Never froze solid like it did in the 80s, and it was only a very small area that did have ice plates or chunks in 96 and last winter, and that was right within 1/4 mile of the area where it transitions (comes off the fall line and becomes tidal). This is why I think the map below is far more accurate. (at least for my area) We still get cold yes, but not cold like it was 20+ years ago. It used to drop to the single digits fairly regularly during winter when I was a child, now it almost never goes below 15-18F, although the past two winters there has been a night or two where we reached 8-12F above zero depending on location. Duration of those temps was limited to a couple hours just before dawn.

That said, Im almost certain it gets much colder than that, for much more extended periods in most of Missouri.

[Erik]

Eric,

welcome!

I live south of you (Tulsa, Oklahoma, area). I grow quite a few palms here but they ALL get winter protection.

Although I enjoy lurking on this forum to learn about palms you and I couldn't possibly grow, the most useful forum for you and I is PalmsNorth (http://palmsnorth.com/forum/). The most active U.S. members are north of you in Iowa and Massachusetts. The rest are in Canada.

After that is the forum of the European Palm Society (http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/). Most members there live north of us, but with a more moderate marine climate and so less severe winters. So, in short, I suggest you join Palmsnorth and give us an Introduction post from a new member in tropical Missouri. --Erik

[Matthew92]

Palm trees in St. Louis? Yes, it's possible

Check this out

 

http://www.kmov.com/story/29185619/palm-trees-in-st-louis-yes-its-possible

[enigma99]

3 hours ago, Opal92 said:

Palm trees in St. Louis? Yes, it's possible

Check this out

 

http://www.kmov.com/story/29185619/palm-trees-in-st-louis-yes-its-possible

UGH. WHY  Even though those are queens which we all despise, buying specimen palms as annuals is just wrong. 

[kinzyjr]

On 8/18/2010, 10:41:16, Plott Palm Trees said:

Hey I live in Columbia Missouri and I am growing Cold Hardy Palms Here, Do You Think it is possible for them to thrive here???
Long Story Short...

That is it, don't wanna piss anybody off.

I realize this will bump an old thread, but if anyone happens to run into this from MO, they may find it valuable:

In Columbia, probably not without serious protection.  However, there are parts of Missouri that are 7a and 7b down in the bootheel toward the Mississippi river.  With a number of factors in their favor, it stands to reason that Sabal Minor 'McCurtain', Sabal Minor 'El Dorado', and Rhapidophyllum Hystrix could grow with minimal or no protection after an establishment period.  Some factors that would help:

1. Proximity to the big muddy river (the Mississippi)
2. A southern exposure, if you want them in front of your house.
3. Overhead canopy that doesn't drop all of its leaves/needles in the winter (Texas Live Oak, or some other evergreen)
4. Situated in a portion of Missouri that is 7a/7b (Caruthersville, Cooter, Steele, etc)
5. Planted close to a house and/or property surrounded on at least 3 sides (North, West, East) by hardy plants that can serve as windbreaks.

Being close to the Mississippi should moderate temperatures to a small degree in your favor, at least in the fall.  A southern exposure allows you to show off your mad growing skills to all the people who pass by, while also allowing you to plant the palms close to a heated structure.  That should keep the fronds and the roots a few degrees warmer and sheltered from wind on one side.  Overhead canopy provided by evergreen or semi-deciduous trees should keep snow and ice out of the crown, and trap some of the heat closer to the ground in the winter.  If your property were surrounded by evergreen shrubs that keep the cold winds from hitting the fronds, you'll have less winter time damage and freezes without wind are much easier to handle since they don't cool the ground off as much.  If you combine all of these factors, and keep the overhead canopy high enough to allow some much needed sun to hit the palm, you should be able to pull it off.

Where could one find a property with the potential to have all of these advantages?  Try the link below:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1893545,-89.6550546,3a,75y,70.39h,69.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sc5EZWrQcvgVodyyM96rtUg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Property already has a Southwest-ish exposure, is located in Caruthersville (7a) relatively close to the Mississippi, the property with the vacant house plus the empty lot next to it are going for 47K, and there are 2 evergreens already planted.

You could lay out the property like below, surrounded with shrubs and use the trees already there for protection.  The X's are some good potential spots for planting:

 

[Hammer]

16 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

I realize this will bump an old thread, but if anyone happens to run into this from MO, they may find it valuable:

In Columbia, probably not without serious protection.  However, there are parts of Missouri that are 7a and 7b down in the bootheel toward the Mississippi river.  With a number of factors in their favor, it stands to reason that Sabal Minor 'McCurtain', Sabal Minor 'El Dorado', and Rhapidophyllum Hystrix could grow with minimal or no protection after an establishment period.  Some factors that would help:

1. Proximity to the big muddy river (the Mississippi)
2. A southern exposure, if you want them in front of your house.
3. Overhead canopy that doesn't drop all of its leaves/needles in the winter (Texas Live Oak, or some other evergreen)
4. Situated in a portion of Missouri that is 7a/7b (Caruthersville, Cooter, Steele, etc)
5. Planted close to a house and/or property surrounded on at least 3 sides (North, West, East) by hardy plants that can serve as windbreaks.

Being close to the Mississippi should moderate temperatures to a small degree in your favor, at least in the fall.  A southern exposure allows you to show off your mad growing skills to all the people who pass by, while also allowing you to plant the palms close to a heated structure.  That should keep the fronds and the roots a few degrees warmer and sheltered from wind on one side.  Overhead canopy provided by evergreen or semi-deciduous trees should keep snow and ice out of the crown, and trap some of the heat closer to the ground in the winter.  If your property were surrounded by evergreen shrubs that keep the cold winds from hitting the fronds, you'll have less winter time damage and freezes without wind are much easier to handle since they don't cool the ground off as much.  If you combine all of these factors, and keep the overhead canopy high enough to allow some much needed sun to hit the palm, you should be able to pull it off.

Where could one find a property with the potential to have all of these advantages?  Try the link below:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1893545,-89.6550546,3a,75y,70.39h,69.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sc5EZWrQcvgVodyyM96rtUg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Property already has a Southwest-ish exposure, is located in Caruthersville (7a) relatively close to the Mississippi, the property with the vacant house plus the empty lot next to it are going for 47K, and there are 2 evergreens already planted.

You could lay out the property like below, surrounded with shrubs and use the trees already there for protection.  The X's are some good potential spots for planting:

 

Bumping old threads is a good thing around here.  Some people get famous for it on PT!  :)

[kinzyjr]

26 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Bumping old threads is a good thing around here.  Some people get famous for it on PT!  :)

I'm used to forums for IT.  Bumping gets you flamed there.

I appreciate the heads up, and if what I posted helps even one person, mission accomplished.

[Xerarch]

On 5/23/2016, 11:59:08, Opal92 said:

Palm trees in St. Louis? Yes, it's possible

Check this out

 

http://www.kmov.com/story/29185619/palm-trees-in-st-louis-yes-its-possible

Wow, so that newscaster is a palm enthusiast? Think he has a profile on here? 

[Hammer]

3 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Wow, so that newscaster is a palm enthusiast? Think he has a profile on here? 

That is pretty cool.  Too bad they are queens.  

[Rondawg]

On 8/19/2010 at 6:26 AM, www.dadluvsu.com said:

I've actually heard of palms rumored in Missouri... I think somewhere around your parts... maybe in the burbs of STL... The guy builds a big hothouse over his yard every winter to keep things alive through the cold. I vividly recall seeing pics of Butia someone took in Arkansas. From what I remember when I lived both places, the weather in Cape Girardeau and Little Rock were about the same, maybe just more humidity in Cape, bein on the river and all.

He’s in sunset hills. Still has them. I’m in Herculaneum I have 4 fox tails, 2 dates, Mexican fan, huge sago and a queen

[pohonkelapa]

On 8/19/2010 at 2:08 AM, Plott Palm Trees said:

I have heard of Cedar Hills and I am only a few hours away from St. Louis.

Well, yes there are not too many trying to grow them here, but I am new to it really...I live in Columbia Missouri which is dab in the middle of MO. I am Zone 6a. I am very restricted to what I can actually grow. I have 16 Windmill Palms, 6 Needle Palms, 175 Dwarf Palmettos, 5 Sabals, & 4 Saw Palmettos.

 

 

lol- yeah, it does get pretty cold here, on record for the last year was -9 degrees F low. I have had my Palms since Palm Sunday 2010.

 

 

I plan on actually taking my yard and transforming it into a Beach. I will remove all the grass and pour sand -throw seashells & starfishes in there and one day a beach ball court.

 

 

I am excited to purchase my first ever 10-12 foot windmill Palm today!!! how cool will that be...

 

 

I know that some of these Palms will survive low freezing weather of -20 degrees. Making them fulproof where I am at.

That "beach" thing sounds like a great idea! you could grow palms and other tropicals in pots and move them outdoors when its warm enough. Keep us posted!