Butia x Cocos nucifera

[ErikSJI]

My dream is Syagrus romanzoffiana x Attalea dubia, is it possible?

Update.

Mark Lynn from Mule Palm Nursery is reporting outstanding results in his pollination efforts this time around on the Butia X Cocos. We should be seeing a lot more of these soon. I am heading to Hawaii at the end of the month to collect more pollen.

Erik

That's great news, will he be selling them?

As far as I know. Most will be going to return customers at Mule Palm Nursery. Whatever is left over will be for sale.

[freakypalmguy]

Hi Zeeth,

I wouldn't say my seedlings are slow, two leaves, and some going on a third in six months from germination.

Alberto,

Out of curiousity, with all the hybridizing you do, what method do you use to protect from contamination? What do you think of my method?

Matt

That's good to know. Have you grown any XButiagrus that you would be able to compare the speed to?

I have, and they are similar so far, maybe even a bit faster.

[Alberto]

Maybe somebody can show an updated pic. I have to see to believe.

[ErikSJI]

I will get you some updated photos when I get back to Florida beginning of May. One was planted in the ground in August of last year.

[Mike Evans]

Here are some pics of the one I posted awhile back. 15 gal container for scale. It still looks alot like Butia, but it is still not armed & very weeping look. I do not usually grow Butia. Should a Butia this size start to show an armed petiole? Mark, can you post some of your crosses?

[Gtlevine]

This one looks exactly like many butia I have seen at that size. It is a little more wispy though, but who knows what the cause may be. I would say Butia, but if Cocos was the parent then little to none of the genes came through. I have noticed with some of my hybrids that they can change drastically as they mature, so post it up in another year and lets have another look. Are you sure its not butia x allogoptera and the guy mis-labeled it? it looks more like Allogoptera is the parent.

Gary

Here are some pics of the one I posted awhile back. 15 gal container for scale. It still looks alot like Butia, but it is still not armed & very weeping look. I do not usually grow Butia. Should a Butia this size start to show an armed petiole? Mark, can you post some of your crosses?

[Mike Evans]

This was pollinated by Mark Lynn. I do not believe he has ever tried crossing w/ allogoptera. He has successfully pollenated 1000's of XButiagrus. I must admit he is good, no, he is damn good at what he does. As far as I know, this is all he does. I agree, time will tell. Maybe we can see some difference when Erik posts some pics of Mark Lynn's.

[Nigel]

As gary says not what you would expect to see , however I dont see regular butia either for a 15g size, it does look rather odd so maybe it is a hybrid. It will indeed be interesting to see eriks pics.

[ErikSJI]

I still see nothing but pure Butia in the one Mark Lynn planted in the ground. It has not taken on the weepy form like Mike Evans either. Mark Lynn has never used allogoptera pollen as far as I am aware of. He has tried the Cocos Nucifera pollen again this Winter. Most of the them aborted and 20 seeds are left holding on.

[Alberto]

Mike,indeed yours is a strange looking weeping palm (Butia? Hybrid?)........ Was it grown in shade?

[Mike Evans]

Mike,indeed yours is a strange looking weeping palm (Butia? Hybrid?)........ Was it grown in shade?

It sees at least 1/2 of the mid day full sun, shaded by the screen around the pool cage. I would think the screen is ~ 20% shade cloth.

[Sanips]

Any updates about this amazing thread?

[corsafafa]

news about this cross???

 

[Pal Meir]

If you want to produce hybrids with Cocos nucifera you should try it at first with one of the following Syagrus/Lytocaryum species:

[gyuseppe]

On 2/9/2010, 14:28:02, Zeeth said:

 

 

Also of note, there's a Elaeis X Cocos in a botanical garden (in singapore I think). Supposedly it's kind of ugly though

?

[gyuseppe]

On 2/9/2010, 17:35:05, freakypalmguy said:

I have 12 seedlings off my Butia that I dusted with Cocos pollen

?

[Alicehunter2000]

Pal can you explain the chart for us neophytes .... are these chromosome numbers? Do you have a corresponding Butia chart as well? Where did you get this info....thanks

[Pal Meir]

17 minutes ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Pal can you explain the chart for us neophytes .... are these chromosome numbers? Do you have a corresponding Butia chart as well? Where did you get this info....thanks

Oh, sorry, I forgot to name the source:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007353.PDF

[Ben in Norcal]

8 hours ago, corsafafa said:

news about this cross???

 

The news is it doesn't exist.

[XYZ]

 

18 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

The news is it doesn't exist.

Man, that is funny given all the, "Cross my heart and hope to die" declamations at the beginning of the thread.

Yes, I suspect a close look at the cladogram (loose sense) Pal Meir provided would be worthwhile to people looking to successfully hybridize Cocos. Useful tool it be to some, that "voodoo" science, molecular phylogenetics...

Good luck with the breeding. 

J

[ErikSJI]

are you guys hating on the Butia X Cocos again hahahaha

[ErikSJI]

Mike Evans how is your cross doing. You had been one of the guys that had received one of 7 that had been produced. Do you determine it to be a butia?

[ErikSJI]

Call it what you will.

[XYZ]

1 hour ago, ErikSJI said:

Call it what you will.

OK. Seven years on, can we call this "magical thinking" until we see incontrovertible evidence to the contrary and be done with it 'til then?

Generally speaking, not keen on palm hybrids but I have a single, new, very distinctive and fairly showy palm hybrid at hand and can document the origins of the cross with exquisite detail. The palm speaks loudly to its parentage on both sides and leaves no doubt as to its hybrid ancestry, as do most palm hybrids I'm familiar with. Didn't require special clothing, nor secrecy, nor rupturing nomenclatural protocol (i.e. pollen parent listed first on a tag) to produce.

Perhaps as many as three thousand spp of palms out there when the final tally is in and a parochial fascination with coconuts by some here continues to dominate the threads. If anything needs its own forum here it's coconuts, no?

Bombs away,

J

[LJG]

10 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

If you want to produce hybrids with Cocos nucifera you should try it at first with one of the following Syagrus/Lytocaryum species:

Loser talk. I am going for gold. Crossing mine with a spider monkey. That way it can self-collect it's own fruit. 

[Pal Meir]

The reason why I am interested in a thread like this is that I believe that Cocos, Syagrus, Butia, Jubaea, etc. belong to only one genus (Cocos?).

[Mandrew968]

6 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

The reason why I am interested in a thread like this is that I believe that Cocos, Syagrus, Butia, Jubaea, etc. belong to only one genus (Cocos?).

Yeah i know a few of you guys personally. "Everything on a genus level should be reduced to a species, and everything on species level should be a cultivar"...

[Pal Meir]

34 minutes ago, Mandrew968 said:

Yeah i know a few of you guys personally. "Everything on a genus level should be reduced to a species, and everything on species level should be a cultivar"...

Or we need instead of a binomen a trinomen for some genera: genus - subgenus - species. Any so called intergeneric hybrids belong de facto (= de iure naturae) to the same genus (de iure botanicorum is another question).

[Brad Mondel]

More endless loops of hope and wishful thinking. Every time I see this thread light up I still get excited for some reason hoping just maybe that it does exist. 

[corsafafa]

butia x coco exist or not ???

[nick]

On 20.8.2016, 09:48:17, Pal Meir said:

The reason why I am interested in a thread like this is that I believe that Cocos, Syagrus, Butia, Jubaea, etc. belong to only one genus (Cocos?).

The closer the relationship the more successful you are with a crossing. The genus alone is no guarantee to be successful. To get a nice crossing is another question.

 

[Pal Meir]

20 minutes ago, nick said:

The closer the relationship the more successful you are with a crossing. The genus alone is no guarantee to be successful. To get a nice crossing is another question.

The question is the definition of »genus« in botany: Is it only arbitrary or verifiable? At present it seems to be quite arbitrary.

 

[awkonradi]

On 8/19/2016, 7:17:22, ErikSJI said:

Call it what you will.

Hi Erik!  Would you tell us about this specimen?  Is this one of your crosses?

[Mandrew968]

I recently brought this up with Dr. Meerow and Dr. Noblick. The question was what was the closest relative to the coconut? Dr. Noblick was confident with Syagrus being closest related. Dr. Meerow believed Attalea to be closest, but also said that this sort of thing may never be known... As for any crosses--the answer is absolutely "NO". If that could be any more emphatic, it would be, considering what is being implied as the parents of any cross( Butia or Elaeis both of which are distant, genetically).

[Sabal Steve]

On August 19, 2016 11:20:50 AM, Pal Meir said:

If you want to produce hybrids with Cocos nucifera you should try it at first with one of the following Syagrus/Lytocaryum species:

Pal,

 

How do you read these charts?  What would be a good example of 2 species that you would be able to likely hybridize?

[Mandrew968]

[Pal Meir]

7 hours ago, Sabal Steve said:

Pal,

How do you read these charts?  What would be a good example of 2 species that you would be able to likely hybridize?

If (!) this phylogenetic tree is correct all species from (old) Lytocaryum down to Syagrus petraea should be possible, but I guess S romanzoffianum (ex Arecastrum) would again be the easiest. (But why?)

[ErikSJI]

So the story is this. Mark Lynn and his mentor who wishes to remain unknown came across and article from Dr Goodman on hybridizing the butia x coconut. After several letters and lunches with Dr. Goodman they determined this cross could be done and was. 6 survived and given away. One remains at Mule Palm nursery. one was given to Mike Evans.

[Sabal Steve]

12 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

If (!) this phylogenetic tree is correct all species from (old) Lytocaryum down to Syagrus petraea should be possible, but I guess S romanzoffianum (ex Arecastrum) would again be the easiest. (But why?)

Thanks Pal.  Just curious.  Recently, I've developed an interest in hybridization.

[Sabal Steve]

13 hours ago, Mandrew968 said:

Do you find it funny that people come to the forum to ask questions, Andrew?  Obviously, there is a lot of active discussion surrounding hybridization.  I think that most of us come to the forum to learn, while others just come to be the center of attention.  But, I'm all ears, if you have something constructive to add...