Butia variation

[edbrown_III]

Merrill,

You remarked on a post about Butia variation. I am posting a few photos I have.

I was curious if all the Butia was from capitata or some other source. I looked at a sample of 50 trees in the southside of Jax -- thousands of trees here in Jax. I applied Glassman's key -- there all were B. capitata

all had armed petioles , all the seed dimensions were in capitata range -- no tomentum on the flowering spathe.

Heres' (first 2) an unusual Butia I photographed on the way back from Naples -- I took the back roads to look at trees etc.

This one was off of 27

3rd is another simular but much stouter off of Philips hwy here in Jax

I would be obliged if anyone would photos of their Butia 's

Best regards

Ed

[merrillwx]

Hi, Ed:

I think you just gave me permission to send you photos of Butia!

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Nigel]

Ed, what shape are the seeds of all these Butias ?

[Nigel]

I read recently that most `capitata` in europe originated in Uruguay ( now Butia odorata ) and have big fruits and round seeds.

Most `capitata` in the states originated in brasil ( probably Butia catarinensis ) and have elongated seeds.

[merrillwx]

Hi, Nigel:

Nice to see you in print again. My Butia seed have come in both ellipsoid and spheroid. I failed to give any significnnce to this, but looking back, that was probably dumb of me! will probably pay more attention next season.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Alicehunter2000]

This is probably the most unusual one I've seen besides the "strictor" type posted on your last picture. This Butia has the most relaxed fronds I have ever seen. The picture doesn't do it justice. I also have permission to remove the seedlings from the trunk Be sure to check out the comparison between it and the "regular" Butia next to it...especially the last picture compairing the fronds.

Speaking of "strictor" types of Butia. There is on Butia here that has about 15 ft. of clear trunk and fronds that are probably only 4 ft. long. It has been like this for as long as I can remember.....gotta try and get a picture...it is really freaky.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Alicehunter2000

[Zeeth]

This is probably the most unusual one I've seen besides the "strictor" type posted on your last picture. This Butia has the most relaxed fronds I have ever seen. The picture doesn't do it justice. I also have permission to remove the seedlings from the trunk Be sure to check out the comparison between it and the "regular" Butia next to it...especially the last picture compairing the fronds.

Speaking of "strictor" types of Butia. There is on Butia here that has about 15 ft. of clear trunk and fronds that are probably only 4 ft. long. It has been like this for as long as I can remember.....gotta try and get a picture...it is really freaky.

That would be a good candidate for a Butia X Cocos hybrid! Let me know if you ever get seeds from it, I'd be interested in trying to grow a Butia with such relaxed fronds

[Nigel]

Its interesting that the one doing the floppy leaf bit is the one underneath those other 2 palms ..... perhaps the leaves are trying to turn to face the light from the side because the sky above is obscured.

Merrill, seed shape is very important because it gives the easiest clue as to origin. The round seeds only occur with Butia microspadix, Butia eriospatha, Butia odorata from extreme south of Brasil and Uruguay and a small wild population of strictior type butias I found here on Florianopolis which are almost certainly unknown to cultivation.

The round seed forms should be the hardiest forms as they exist in the coldest places.

Identifying those elipsoid seed forms is far more challenging !

Edited September 6, 2010 by Nigel

[merrillwx]

Many Thanks, Nigel:

I'm going to classify my butia and grow a few spherical Butia!

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Alicehunter2000]

Nigel, there is something more going on with this palm than growing in the shade. There are literally thousands of Butia's growing in this area and North Florida in general and many of them are growing in the shade. No other palm I've seen looks like this one. This palm is in a row of approx. 20 Butia's growing on each side....all of similar size. The overhead canopy is mainly tall pine trees that create dappled shade for many of the palms in the area. The S. palmetto's that are growing next to it are not providing much canopy because of the direction of the sun over the nearby bay (inland body of water). I really think it is some sort of genetic mutant, I'm only hoping that the seedlings growing on the trunk carry this same trait. I told the landscaper, working for the elderly lady that owns the tree that I would be willing to buy it if she ever decides to sell it....it is that different.

[edbrown_III]

Nigel,

I did this little 50 tree sample for my own statistics and education --- This was over 10 years ago --- I believe it was before Merrill and I wnet to LA to look for Jubeas

B. odorata wasnt on the radar screen for me. I justed 3 ways to classify lineage

armed petioles vs un armed ( to exclude B. archeri purpuscens microspadix )

tomemntum vs no tomentum to exclude B. eriospatha

then seed size to exclude any B. yatai lineage---

they were in the capitata range ( shape... I didnt look at ) to differentiate between the odorata vs capitata

I probably need to apply the round vs eliptical filter for relook at the seeds and trees.

---From my readings, Most of the Butias arrived from 2 sources (as I recollect)--- some monks who had a monaster;y in Jacksonville and Glen St Mary's nursery -- ( back a century or so)

There are Argentine diaspora in Tampa and Brasilian diaspora in Miami -- (could the origin be from these) or did Reasoners nursery import from other exit port?

Per Merrills observation-- likely both B. odorata and B. capitata were distributed as B. capitata through the IPS seed bank over the years.

Merrill the Butia (by Jubea pollen) has very large round seeds ( I believe Mark collected some of thesewhen he visited) perhaps it has odorata lineage --- or is this just the Jubea expressing itself?

Nigel and Merrill, I am enjoying your learned insight on the specifics of the differences. Pelase keep posting.

Alice, I would be interested in any photos of the large stricticor--- seed descriptions would be valued. Please keep posting .

The pho tos I posted were passing by -- they were in a black neighborhood --- I am a bit reticient to just knock on doors and start asking questions. might think I am undercover or something.

Best regards,

Ed

[Mark Heath]

Hello Ed,

I am learning a great deal here, thanks for posting this thread. Here is a whopper that i have grown from seed.

One gallon pot for scale. I collected the seed from a beautifull specimen one day while walking past the mother tree back in 1999. It flowered last year for the first time but did'nt produce a spath this year unfortunatly.

The seeds were small and round.

[Nigel]

Hello Ed,

I am learning a great deal here, thanks for posting this thread. Here is a whopper that i have grown from seed.

One gallon pot for scale. I collected the seed from a beautifull specimen one day while walking past the mother tree back in 1999. It flowered last year for the first time but did'nt produce a spath this year unfortunatly.

The seeds were small and round.

mark, did you use this for hybridisation with success ? Its a Butia odorata or eriospatha ( I think I can see a woolly spathe ?? )...

Edited September 6, 2010 by Nigel

[Mark Heath]

Hello Ed,

I am learning a great deal here, thanks for posting this thread. Here is a whopper that i have grown from seed.

One gallon pot for scale. I collected the seed from a beautifull specimen one day while walking past the mother tree back in 1999. It flowered last year for the first time but did'nt produce a spath this year unfortunatly.

The seeds were small and round.

mark, did you use this for hybridisation with success ? Its a Butia odorata or eriospatha ( I think I can see a woolly spathe ?? )...

No Nigel, i did'nt! I took it for granted that it would flower this year. It is massive, much larger than any other Butia i have here and i have wanted to use it for crossing w/ Queen but i wanted to give it a year to flower on it's own.

I am happy that you can ID this guy, it will come in handy next year when i start frankensteining this bugger!!!

The trunk is a 10inches larger in circumfrence(spelling?) than my largest Butia. It will make some monster Mules for sure.

[Nigel]

Mark, did it have a lot of woolly tomentum on the flower spathe ? Butia odorata can have a thin covering of tomentum but is usually devoid , eriospatha has a thick woolly coating like velvet.

I am curious to know if the round seeded butias are more difficult to work with for hybridisation. Does anybody out there have a round seeded Butia that is slutty for hybridisation ? I should have the answer quite quickly myself as I am starting to work with some round seeded Butias.

[merrillwx]

Hi, Nigel:

My belief is that I've crossed both spherical and ellipsoid Butia with Queen; as you say, you'll know this season!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited September 7, 2010 by merrillwx

[sarasota alex]

There is a Butia in my neighborhood which exhibits similar "relaxed" fronds behavior.

[Nigel]

Hi, Nigel:

My belief is that I've crossed both spherical and ellipsoid Butia with Queen; as you say, you'll know this season!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Hi Merrill, Its clearly possible because both eriosptha and odorata have produced hybrids , I just have this suspicion that the spgeroid type is more difficult due to fact that eriospatha is much more difficult to work with than catarinensis.

[Mark Heath]

Mark, did it have a lot of woolly tomentum on the flower spathe ? Butia odorata can have a thin covering of tomentum but is usually devoid , eriospatha has a thick woolly coating like velvet.

I am curious to know if the round seeded butias are more difficult to work with for hybridisation. Does anybody out there have a round seeded Butia that is slutty for hybridisation ? I should have the answer quite quickly myself as I am starting to work with some round seeded Butias.

Nigel, the palm in the picture has a thick velvety rusty woolly tomentum on the spathe. But, spherical seeds, i was wrong.

The Butia that i have used for years w/ producing Mules has no tomentum (totally green)and large round seeds. I had allways assumed it was a Capitata, but now i'll need your ID skills. I'll take a pic later today if you need one of the entire palm and also an infruitescence w/ ripe XButyagrus fruit.

[Nigel]

Nigel, the palm in the picture has a thick velvety rusty woolly tomentum on the spathe. But, spherical seeds, i was wrong.

The Butia that i have used for years w/ producing Mules has no tomentum (totally green)and large round seeds. I had allways assumed it was a Capitata, but now i'll need your ID skills. I'll take a pic later today if you need one of the entire palm and also an infruitescence w/ ripe XButyagrus fruit.

This is excellent news !!!!

In this case the palm with thick tomentum is an eriosptha and from your description if the other Butia has sweet fibreless fruit and big round seeds ( without tomentum on spathe ) it is odorata. To hear this latter butia is slutty is excellent news indeed !!!

[JLeVert]

This is a great discussion guys....really interesting. I went around yesterday and collected seed to check on the shape. From a B x J: large, round seeds. From a B. paraguayensis: small, spheroid seed. From a supposed B x S: round seeds, but smaller than B x J.

Also, we have two Butias growing side by side at the school where I teach. Both are in full sun in dry sand. One has very erect, stiff leaves and the other is floppy. Go figure.

I'm learning a lot here.

[Mark Heath]

Nigel, the palm in the picture has a thick velvety rusty woolly tomentum on the spathe. But, spherical seeds, i was wrong.

The Butia that i have used for years w/ producing Mules has no tomentum (totally green)and large round seeds. I had allways assumed it was a Capitata, but now i'll need your ID skills. I'll take a pic later today if you need one of the entire palm and also an infruitescence w/ ripe XButyagrus fruit.

This is excellent news !!!!

In this case the palm with thick tomentum is an eriosptha and from your description if the other Butia has sweet fibreless fruit and big round seeds ( without tomentum on spathe ) it is odorata. To hear this latter butia is slutty is excellent news indeed !!!

Nigel, is this slutty enough?? Queen is the pollen donor!!

[Mark Heath]

It is nice to know the true name of my Butia! The seed is very large and round w/ fiberless fruit..And they taste great too!! Thanks for the ID Nigel! I am happy that is good news for you. Here is a pic of the whole palm.

[Nigel]

Nigel, is this slutty enough?? Queen is the pollen donor!!

Now thats slutty...... I hope mine are equally as slutty as yours !!!!!!!!!!!

The fruit arrangement is dead on for one of those odoratas from the deep south

Edited September 14, 2010 by Nigel

[GTClover]

Hi Guys, great thread and I hope you don't take this in the wrong way, but is "slutty' the best way to describe the female palm that produces fertile seeds when hybridizing.....

Susan

Edited September 16, 2010 by GTClover

[Nigel]

Hi Guys, great thread and I hope you don't take this in the wrong way, but is "slutty' the best way to describe the female palm that produces fertile seeds when hybridizing.....

Susan

Sorry Susan, didnt mean to offend. Its kind of a silly reference to the fact that some Butias take other species pollen better than others.

[rarepalmaddict]

On 9/6/2010 at 3:40 AM, Alicehunter2000 said:

This is probably the most unusual one I've seen besides the "strictor" type posted on your last picture. This Butia has the most relaxed fronds I have ever seen. The picture doesn't do it justice. I also have permission to remove the seedlings from the trunk Be sure to check out the comparison between it and the "regular" Butia next to it...especially the last picture compairing the fronds.

 

Speaking of "strictor" types of Butia. There is on Butia here that has about 15 ft. of clear trunk and fronds that are probably only 4 ft. long. It has been like this for as long as I can remember.....gotta try and get a picture...it is really freaky.

Do you know the geographical région where this beautifull Butia strain which has the most relaxed and plumose  fronds comes from  just like a syagrus romanzofiana ?

is it possible to have some seeds of this plumose Butia of my dream????

[VA Jeff]

Butia witeckii seems to show laxness to the leaflets.  Some eriospatha occasionally do.  So many butias are hybridized, you can't always be certain.

 

I have a seedling of a very weepy butia found in this thread 

Also, if you look at my avatar, it has the weepiest butia I've ever seen, from near Wilmington NC.  I used to have seedlings of it, but most died due to neglect.  I have one seedling that is either a descendent of the super weepy NC palm or a BxJ, not sure, because I grew seeds of both.  My Savannah super weepy palm has only a couple fronds about 2 feet long, because the root system got damaged and is regrowing.  I expect it to grow slow for another year before it takes off.  I used to live a mile from the weepy Savannah butia.  If someone is willing to promise to mail me seeds of either palm, I could disclose the locations of both.

[VA Jeff]

Another cause of so called weepiness is when the rachis of the palm twists such that the V keel of the leaf is facing downward.  Although those can sometime look nice too, they are not what I would truly consider weepy.  I tend to hunt those whose leaflets go limp, even when the rachis is facing upward.  I wouldn't mind crossing a butia like that with a parajubaea sunkha or a super hardy queen, but my hardy queens are small and my sunkhas died.  I do have some Patrick Schafer butia x sunkha and torallyi hybrids that look mostly butia so far with the strong V keel.  Perhaps over time, they will become limp.  When I did have a juvenile sunkha, its leaves were beautiful at only 7-8 feet tall.  

[rarepalmaddict]

I have a very beautifull Butia with the leaves looking like a syagrus romanzofiana.

Could someone tell me if it is a specific Butia strain???

I'm looking more for butias with such leaves.

Thanks.

[edbrown_III]

you might have a Butyagrus palm 

thats what it looks like to me --- some are more Butia like and some are more Syagrus like --- 

[rarepalmaddict]

But the trunk is a Real Butia, the butiagrus Trunks don't look like true butia Trunks.

[Scott W]

Butiagrus will be unarmed on the petioles as well.

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:42 AM, edbrown_III said:

you might have a Butyagrus palm

I would have to agree , beautiful palm for sure either way. May not know till it seeds. 

T J 

[Scott W]

Here is some variation in Butia species found in a neighborhood near me, especially in the trunk.

[rarepalmaddict]

As a matter of facts lots of variations or strains

[rarepalmaddict]

On 9/6/2010 at 3:40 AM, Alicehunter2000 said:

This is probably the most unusual one I've seen besides the "strictor" type posted on your last picture. This Butia has the most relaxed fronds I have ever seen. The picture doesn't do it justice. I also have permission to remove the seedlings from the trunk Be sure to check out the comparison between it and the "regular" Butia next to it...especially the last picture compairing the fronds.

 

Speaking of "strictor" types of Butia. There is on Butia here that has about 15 ft. of clear trunk and fronds that are probably only 4 ft. long. It has been like this for as long as I can remember.....gotta try and get a picture...it is really freaky.

Hello, is it possible to have some seeds or seedlings of this gorgous Butia that has the most relaxed fronds ?

THanks.