San Angelo Cold Hardy Palms and Cycads

[mjff]

I got my nursery license last spring and have spent the summer working on getting that up and running.

Picked up a couple of dozen large Sabal palmettos in 100 gallon containers.

Built a new barn to store nursery materials and supplies in.

Cleared a rocky area that never grew much anyway, and converted it to a growing area. I'm using 100, 65, and 30 gallon Jackpot bags filled with a mixture of black loam, sand, and decomposed granite. Everything is on irrigation using 7 gph spray stakes.

Next project is to construct a 30' x 60' greenhouse. Customers will enter the greenhouse on a path that goes between two Blue Jubaeas. Here is one of them. The sun is at the wrong angle to really pick up the blue color on this one. I bought 50 Blue Jubaeas, the one in the second photo shows the coloration much better, and have the rest growing in 100 gallon bags.

In addition to the Blue Jubaeas, I got 50 of the regular Jubaeas.

I also bought some really nice Brahaea armatas to resell, including this large double trunk specimen.

In addition I have some large Butia capitata, Chamaerops humilis, and Sabal mexicana in 65 gallon bags, and Phoenix theoprasti in 30 gallon bags. The empty 30 gallon bags you see in the photo above will soon be home to Washingtonia filifera, Brahea clara, Brahea "Super Silver," assorted Sabals I'm growing from seed (rosei, pumos, uresana, riverside, mexicana, and minor), Butia yatay, and Trithrinax acanthicoma.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Pictures #5 and 6 look like Butia , not Jubaea. Otherwise, congratulations on getting your license and you're off to a great start. Can't wait to see the new green house once it's built. What kinds of palms will you keep in there? I see, in the distance in pic #4, that your big Jubaea are putting out some nice new fronds.

[mjff]

Pictures #5 and 6 look like Butia , not Jubaea. Otherwise, congratulations on getting your license and you're off to a great start. Can't wait to see the new green house once it's built. What kinds of palms will you keep in there? I see, in the distance in pic #4, that your big Jubaea are putting out some nice new fronds.

Jim,

Nice catch on #6, it does appear to be a Butia although you are probably right for the wrong reason. I assume you are looking at the V-shape to the leaflets on the fronds, and the recurved shape to the frond itself. Those traits also seem to be traits of the Blue Jubaea though. Here is a photo of some large Blue Jubaeas (right and left, center is a regular Jubaea). If you just look at the fronds you would probably assume they were Butias or hybrids, but the trunks are clearly not Butia trunks. Closer inspection would also show that the petioles don't have teeth like a Butia. Unfortunately when I looked closely at the palm in #6, the leaf bases are the color of Butia leaf bases, and the petioles have teeth all the way to where the leaflets begin! This is a little puzzling because the plant came in a batch of Jubaeas and it is kind of hard to mix the seeds up seeing as Jubaea seeds are much larger than Butia seeds, so maybe it is a J x B. However, the plant itself is about the same size as the Jubaeas and if it were a Butia or hybrid it should be considerably larger than the others which is why I hadn't looked more closely at it before now. Very strange.

Here is the trunk of the Blue Jubaea to the right of the greenhouse entrance. Note the orange leaf bases and lack of teeth on the petioles.

This is the trunk of the Blue Jubaea to the left of the greenhouse entrance (photo #5 above). Again note the color of the leaf bases and lack of teeth on the petioles.

Next the trunk of a regular Jubaea of the same size.

Finally a Butia trunk. Note the purple leaf bases and teeth all the way up the petioles.

I guess we'll see how the palm in photo #6 grows out. Either way it is a beautiful palm that may wind up in my own garden.

Finally, here is a Blue Jubaea with the sun at the right angle to show the color.

[mjff]

Pictures #5 and 6 look like Butia , not Jubaea. Otherwise, congratulations on getting your license and you're off to a great start. Can't wait to see the new green house once it's built. What kinds of palms will you keep in there? I see, in the distance in pic #4, that your big Jubaea are putting out some nice new fronds.

I plan on using the greenhouse for seedlings and small palms. I've found that most cold hardy palms aren't cold hardy enough to survive the winter here until they are a couple of years old, so I will keep them in the greenhouse until they are big enough to go into the growing bags in the spring and make it to a size that will survive winter with no protection.

The big Jubaeas are starting to fill back out nicely. They hold so many fronds and grow so slowly that replacing all of them takes years. The one with the crooked trunk was growing in a wind sheltered spot in CA, so most of it's fronds were torn to shreds by the strong winds we get here. The new fronds seem able to take the wind, but I'm guessing it is going to take another couple of years for it to replace all of the ones it lost. Now it is starting to shed the old dead ones that at least gave it the appearance of a nice full head from a distance, so it is going to look like a huge carrot for awhile.

[AggiePalms]

Those look great! I would love to see the looks on the faces of folks in San Angelo when those get mature and are center stage in someone's yard! West Texas needs more such well acllimated palms. And yes I would agree about raising seedlings inside a green house; growing up in Dallas it was difficult to have any small palms survive the winter; I can only imagine the problems in San Angelo.

Are any of the SW US or Mexican Sabal species native that far north?

Best of luck with the nursery! Lots of hard work, but well worth it.

[swolf]

Martin, I congratulate your ambition and expect your patient foresight will be rewarded (especially in future, stronger economies). The picture of mature Jubaeas is awesome! I never saw that one. Where are those palms located? I gather you saw them 'in the flesh'.

Steve

St. Augustine FL

[Kailua_Krish]

Nice! I wish I lived closer!

-Krishna

[mjff]

Those look great! I would love to see the looks on the faces of folks in San Angelo when those get mature and are center stage in someone's yard! West Texas needs more such well acllimated palms. And yes I would agree about raising seedlings inside a green house; growing up in Dallas it was difficult to have any small palms survive the winter; I can only imagine the problems in San Angelo.

Are any of the SW US or Mexican Sabal species native that far north?

Best of luck with the nursery! Lots of hard work, but well worth it.

Thanks David.

There are no palms native to this area, but the cold hardier species do very well here. The local nurseries bring quite a few in from the RGV growers, but not many sources down there for Butia, Jubaea, and Brahea and everything is field grown so the recovery time is pretty long once they get here. Transportation costs are pretty high too.

[mjff]

Martin, I congratulate your ambition and expect your patient foresight will be rewarded (especially in future, stronger economies). The picture of mature Jubaeas is awesome! I never saw that one. Where are those palms located? I gather you saw them 'in the flesh'.

Steve

St. Augustine FL

Thanks Steve.

The Jubaeas in the photo belong to some ladies I know in N CA.

[AggiePalms]

I didn't think any of the natives went that far north/dry. Hang in there; there should be a good market when the economy improves (not I didn't say if the economy improves; we all have to be positive about the future of palm nurseries).

[mjff]

I didn't think any of the natives went that far north/dry. Hang in there; there should be a good market when the economy improves (not I didn't say if the economy improves; we all have to be positive about the future of palm nurseries).

The economy out here is actually pretty good with oil prices over $80/bbl and cotton prices high too, but I don't plan on selling a lot of the palms I'm growing for awhile. The Jubaeas will probably take at least 5-10 years to get to the size I want to sell them at. Most of the Sabal palmettos need a little more time to regrow nice full heads too. The Butias and Braheas are pretty much ready to sell, but everything else is going to take a little longer to get to a marketable size.

[Dave-Vero]

I'm reminded of how the little Yucca Do nursery migrated from the hurricane-prone Houston area to some inland site. I've been no closer to San Angelo than I-10.

[Mark Heath]

Congratulations Martin,

Your hard work will pay off in time! Your place is looking better every time you show us picks! I wish i could've been able to make that road trip to see your pad, but now i am happy that i have waited, because when i do finally make it there it will be even better!

I can imagine downing a few brews and eating curry goat on your patio (sigh).

How are the Sable Lisas doing?

[mjff]

Congratulations Martin,

Your hard work will pay off in time! Your place is looking better every time you show us picks! I wish i could've been able to make that road trip to see your pad, but now i am happy that i have waited, because when i do finally make it there it will be even better!

I can imagine downing a few brews and eating curry goat on your patio (sigh).

How are the Sable Lisas doing?

Thanks Mark.

Was out pouring concrete for the island rock formation/waterfall all afternoon. 9 yards down, about 4 more to go tomorrow.

Tha Sabal Lisas are doing great. I put them in 1 gallons when they got here and now they have 3-4 leaves each. The little Mule you gave me is doing well too. I bumped it up to a 15 gallon a couple of months ago, and the big Mule, well you saw the photo above. It flowered but didn't set any fruit. I didn't pollinate it and none of my Butias were blooming at the same time which seems almost impossible given the number of Butias I have and profuse amount of fruit they have produced this year.

[Erik]

Nice palms!

I get my best palms from road trips down to Texas. Maybe I'll make it to your place someday. --Erik (up in Oklahoma)

[mjff]

A guy came by earlier with some aerial photos of my property he took a couple of weeks ago. He's retired and does this for a hobby/extra income. I thought they were pretty cool, so bought them. Here are scans of a couple. Out of date already though. Since he took them, I've built a 24' x 30' barn on the slab to the right of the Y in the drive on the left of the photos and added a large rock formation/waterfall made from concrete right behind the house that will be in the middle of a koi pond soon. Enjoy!

[monkeyranch]

Hello Martin. Just curious if the "some ladies I know in N CA" happens to be at the Renaissance Winery in Oregon House,CA (Sierra foothills near Marysville)". Its just over the Yuba River Canyon from my county but I missed hearing about this for years. They have a surprising collection of palms, probably one of the best in norcal. There are Canaries and Queens at their elevational/climate limits. Also a P. dactylifera grove in a grid layout, thousands of Brahea armatas, Trachies, Canaries, and Butias lining a couple of miles of roads on the property. Most importantly they have at least a dozen (maybe more) mature Jubaeas including a 'Blue Form' or two. Also smaller quantities of unusual Brahea, Trachy, and other species. A very ambitious landscape design and a testament to cold hardy palms. Might be "run of the mill" common to those from more "palmy" areas but this is the border of USDA 9a/8b with many frosty nights. The wine is also world class and they have another company making Apollo Olive Oils. There is a great collection of art and sculpture as well. Its worth arranging a tour if you are in this out of the way corner of Cali. Probably some of the wholesale nurserymen and the palm brokers who have been around awhile remember when this winery was seeking out large specimen palms. About 15 to 25 years ago they drove all over Cali making offers on large trees. I couldn't tell ya where the huge Blue Jubs came from. I couldn't find any images of these palms on google image search. Next visit I'll try to get some photos.

http://www.renaissancewinery.com/

Edited December 8, 2010 by monkeyranch

[Perito]

I think those palms on either side of the Jubaea are hybrids- Jubaea x Butia or the other way around.

I'm very inpressed with your nursery. Keep growing!

[mjff]

Hello Martin. Just curious if the "some ladies I know in N CA" happens to be at the Renaissance Winery in Oregon House,CA (Sierra foothills near Marysville)". Its just over the Yuba River Canyon from my county but I missed hearing about this for years. They have a surprising collection of palms, probably one of the best in norcal. There are Canaries and Queens at their elevational/climate limits. Also a P. dactylifera grove in a grid layout, thousands of Brahea armatas, Trachies, Canaries, and Butias lining a couple of miles of roads on the property. Most importantly they have at least a dozen (maybe more) mature Jubaeas including a 'Blue Form' or two. Also smaller quantities of unusual Brahea, Trachy, and other species. A very ambitious landscape design and a testament to cold hardy palms. Might be "run of the mill" common to those from more "palmy" areas but this is the border of USDA 9a/8b with many frosty nights. The wine is also world class and they have another company making Apollo Olive Oils. There is a great collection of art and sculpture as well. Its worth arranging a tour if you are in this out of the way corner of Cali. Probably some of the wholesale nurserymen and the palm brokers who have been around awhile remember when this winery was seeking out large specimen palms. About 15 to 25 years ago they drove all over Cali making offers on large trees. I couldn't tell ya where the huge Blue Jubs came from. I couldn't find any images of these palms on google image search. Next visit I'll try to get some photos.

http://www.renaissancewinery.com/

Not from the winery, but same area. There are actually several nurseries in that area that have Jubaeas and other palms. The Blue Jubaea seeds came from the Blue Jubaeas in Warner Ranch Park in LA. Anybody know anything about them? Are there Butias nearby?

[monkeyranch]

Can you recall the names of the nurseries with Jubaeas in NorCal? The only one I know of is Palm Island/Neon Palm of Vacaville(English Hills)/Santa Rosa. The have the two locations. I have a few hundred myself but only 5 gallon sized. I'm getting impatient enough to cough up some money for a few larger ones. There was a palm grower in N. Highlands(Sacramento) area called (Great?) Valley Palms but it was sold and I can't find out to whom. I thought your picture was from the Fellowship Of Friends (Renaissance) property because of the white pillars amongst the trees. Thanks for your reply, Martin (my name also).

[mjff]

Can you recall the names of the nurseries with Jubaeas in NorCal? The only one I know of is Palm Island/Neon Palm of Vacaville(English Hills)/Santa Rosa. The have the two locations. I have a few hundred myself but only 5 gallon sized. I'm getting impatient enough to cough up some money for a few larger ones. There was a palm grower in N. Highlands(Sacramento) area called (Great?) Valley Palms but it was sold and I can't find out to whom. I thought your picture was from the Fellowship Of Friends (Renaissance) property because of the white pillars amongst the trees. Thanks for your reply, Martin (my name also).

The nurseries I'm thinking of are more wholesale type outfits. The names escape me at the moment. I've got them written down here somewhere, but the stack of papers the note is in is rather large and disorganized.

[mjff]

The greenhouse is coming along. Got the grade right using the caliche and crushed limestone that came out of the hole for my new pond, and installed the ground posts and anchors. No easy feat when there is a 6" thick layer of rock over caliche below. A rock drill made quick work of the rock layer, and the caliche was no match for me and my sledgehammer.

Supposed to rain tonight followed by a few days of winter, so probably won't make much progress this week.

[jimbiz]

Really amazing. You're going to make San Angelo the Palm Capital of West Texas. Nice selection too.

I am especially glad you are introducing B. yatay to this part of the country. Though I have only seen them in photographs, they seem to be somewhat more

tropical looking than the capitatas. Wonder if they have tasty edible fruit too.

Hope you get lots of rain tonight - Odessa faces water rationing for sure this sumer if your lakes don't fill up soon I hear.

Not looking forward to Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday!

[mjff]

Really amazing. You're going to make San Angelo the Palm Capital of West Texas. Nice selection too.

I am especially glad you are introducing B. yatay to this part of the country. Though I have only seen them in photographs, they seem to be somewhat more

tropical looking than the capitatas. Wonder if they have tasty edible fruit too.

Hope you get lots of rain tonight - Odessa faces water rationing for sure this sumer if your lakes don't fill up soon I hear.

Not looking forward to Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday!

Hey Jim!

Looks like we only got .25". Of course, .25" running off my entire roof into the pond = mud pit. The greenhouse pad should soak that right up though, but with highs in the 30's Tuesday and Wednesday you won't likely catch me out there putting it together.

I can't wait to see what the seedlings from my silver Butia, which I suspect is a Butia yatay, grow into. I have some that are going pinnate, and once they get to that size Butias seem to grow pretty quickly. I will probably put them in 30 gallon bags in the greenhouse once it is done.

[mjff]

Pictures #5 and 6 look like Butia , not Jubaea. Otherwise, congratulations on getting your license and you're off to a great start. Can't wait to see the new green house once it's built. What kinds of palms will you keep in there? I see, in the distance in pic #4, that your big Jubaea are putting out some nice new fronds.

The latest edition of Palms has cleared up the mystery about my Blue Jubaeas. The seed for them supposedly came from the Blue Jubaeas in Warner Park which just happen to be shown in Palms and noted as Jubaea x Butia (aka Blue Jubaea). The point is kind of moot though, they all froze in February.

[MattyB]

Awwwww, that's a bummer Martin. Sorry to hear about the freeze. As you've just described, the Blue Jubaeas are usually a hybrid with the Butias. But as with all hybrids they vary. Some are pretty much a half and half look but a rare few look mostly like a Jubaea except they have that blue coloration. Usually the more Jubaea the ultimate shape of the plant, can be detected early on by noticing the prominent the hooks that are on the leaflets. If you get a real blue one but it's got strong hooks then these are going to look most like a pure Jubaea but with outstanding blue color. Just what I've noticed.

[iamjv]

Martin, any updates on the nursery or palm recovery???? Thanks, Jv

[mjff]

Awwwww, that's a bummer Martin. Sorry to hear about the freeze. As you've just described, the Blue Jubaeas are usually a hybrid with the Butias. But as with all hybrids they vary. Some are pretty much a half and half look but a rare few look mostly like a Jubaea except they have that blue coloration. Usually the more Jubaea the ultimate shape of the plant, can be detected early on by noticing the prominent the hooks that are on the leaflets. If you get a real blue one but it's got strong hooks then these are going to look most like a pure Jubaea but with outstanding blue color. Just what I've noticed.

RPS also sells Blue Jubaea seeds that are from Chile, and I don't believe are hybrids at all, to add to the confusion. I actually bought some of them and they are starting to germinate!

[mjff]

Martin, any updates on the nursery or palm recovery???? Thanks, Jv

The nursery was largely wiped out. Small Sabals with growing points under ground are coming back, but large ones were almost all killed. Some of the Med Fans are also recovering. A few of the Brahea armatas survived, and a few Butias too. Jubaeas completely wiped out.

Have a bumper crop of Sabal minor, Sabal Riverside, Jubaea, J x B, and Washingtonia filifera seedlings ready to go in the greenhouse. Several infloresences on my Butia that wasn't defoliated have been pollinated with Syagrus pollen Nigel sent me from the large Mountain Queens in Santa Catarina, Brazil. Hoping the offspring will be able to handle the cold here better.

The palms established in the yard fared much better. Livistonas, Phoenix (except CIDP and Acaulis), and Wahingtonia robusta/filibusta were all killed. Smaller Butias and Braheas killed. All Mules killed. Everything else is recovering. As might be expected larger trunking specimens fared much better than smaller plants. My trunking Trachys are being wiped out by the relentless heat. It has been over 100F something like 25 out of the last 26 days now with lows in the high 70's/low 80's.

[KPL]

Wishing you continued recovery!

kpl

[peachy]

Hang in there Martin, I have been virtually wiped out twice. Once by a black frost then by the floods this year. However I keep on and the numbers are slowly building up again.

Peachy

[iamjv]

Wow what a devastating report.... surprised that the jubs and large sabals died off, guess it was the roots being above ground that did them in... the hybrid you're working on, from Nigel's larger queen pollen sound promising, hopefully you'll get a great set and germination rate! Jv

[mjff]

Wow what a devastating report.... surprised that the jubs and large sabals died off, guess it was the roots being above ground that did them in... the hybrid you're working on, from Nigel's larger queen pollen sound promising, hopefully you'll get a great set and germination rate! Jv

The Jubaeas in the nursery were pretty small, so not surprised they froze. I have one that was slightly larger (24" box) in the ground that was one of the first to start pushing after the freeze. None of the Jubaeas are growing now, but I think that is because it is too hot.

I pollinated the first infloresence on the Butia more than 3 weeks ago, and got a very good seed set on it and the fruit is already quarter size. The second one I think I was a day late on, and I got a poor seed set. I hit the third one Sunday, and those flowers looked perfect. This Butia is great to work with because all the female flowers mature at the same time, and most of the male flowers are grouped together at the ends where they can be quickly cut off.

If I recall correctly this Butia was the only one blooming last year when my Jubaea bloomed. I got a bunch of seeds from that Jubaea that were too small, and they germinated very easily, so I suspect I now have a bunch of J x B seedlings from one of the cold hardiest Jubaeas in my yard and the cold hardiest Butia.

Looking on the bright side, now I know which trees are cold hardiest so I can use them to produce seed for the nursery and hopefully produce cold hardier specimens to sell.

[LJG]

Sorry to hear all this. A real bummer. How did the Brahea moorei do?

[mjff]

Sorry to hear all this. A real bummer. How did the Brahea moorei do?

Brahea moorei (and all the other trunkless palms like B. decumbens, Sabal minor, Allagopteras, etc.) were defoliated, but started pushing again almost immediately after the freeze was over. I have two of them, one in a very sheltered spot next to the house and the other out in the open, and both are looking great already. The one next to the house that gets mostly shade looks much better though, and has much larger darker fronds. The one in the open normally gets shade from my silver Butia, but it was defoliated too, and has a lot of fronds to replace before it provides the shade it used to.

My cycads did great too. All the caudexes are planted below the soil line surrounded by perlite, and though they were all defoliated almost all have already grown back all the leaves they lost and then some.

[mjff]

Finally completed the greenhouse.

[Nigel]

Martin, impressive greenhouse ! How many square yards ?

Hows your Jubaeas ? How did the Butyagrus seeds do, germinate well ?

[Mark Heath]

Wow, sorry to hear the bad news Martin. Too bad the large Sabals were not established yet and then the bad winter came.

I am also sad about the Mule, man that was a beautifull palm!

I am waiting for my B.Yatay to flower so i can use that to cross with, should be a cool hybrid.

I also have a Silver Queen but i am not sure if it is more cold hardy or not. I have heard them called "Bonsall" too. Someone enlighten me

as to their cold hardiness. The Silver Queen is shooting it's first spathe so i will use it's pollen on B.Odorata and I'll send you some seeds

if that'll work for you.

So far so good w/ this winter, let's keep our fingers crossed!

[mjff]

Martin, impressive greenhouse ! How many square yards ?

Hows your Jubaeas ? How did the Butyagrus seeds do, germinate well ?

30' x 60' so 1,800 sq ft = 200 sq yds. Going to make me do math this morning are you Nigel? At least you didn't ask for it in sq meters.

Only the Jubaea I use as my avatar survived. The other 4 large ones all died. 2 of them started growing new fronds, but died about mid-August. I'm not sure if it was the brutal heat that got them or the trunk damage from the cold. The Jubaea that survived is still booted nearly to the ground. Apparently the boots and fiber around them provided enough insulation and protection from the wind to keep it's trunk from being damaged. I have found no soft or rotten spots in it's trunk. The other Jubaeas all had exposed trunk, and the exposed trunk was damaged on the windward side. It appears that if a Jubaea's trunk is damaged, not only will it not heal, but the rot will spread all the way through the trunk. I saw this with the one that got the trunk bruise when it was shipped from CA, and now with these cold damaged ones. You start out with a small damaged area but within a few months the rot has spread all the way through the trunk and the tree collapses. In both cases the section of trunk at the top where the leaf bases were still attached was still healthy even though the trunk underneath was completely rotten. Very strange. In the future it appears I will have to wrap the exposed trunk with a blanket if we are going to have an extended freeze with strong winds.

I still haven't gotten any of the Butyagrus seeds to sprout. Maybe in the spring?

[mjff]

Wow, sorry to hear the bad news Martin. Too bad the large Sabals were not established yet and then the bad winter came.

I am also sad about the Mule, man that was a beautifull palm!

I am waiting for my B.Yatay to flower so i can use that to cross with, should be a cool hybrid.

I also have a Silver Queen but i am not sure if it is more cold hardy or not. I have heard them called "Bonsall" too. Someone enlighten me

as to their cold hardiness. The Silver Queen is shooting it's first spathe so i will use it's pollen on B.Odorata and I'll send you some seeds

if that'll work for you.

So far so good w/ this winter, let's keep our fingers crossed!

The Sabals that died were S. palmettos in 100 gallon containers that I planned on selling in the spring. The ones I have in the ground are ok. I think the containers actually froze.

I miss the Mule I got from you. I think I'm going to replace it with a curved trunk Sabal. It won't be nearly as cool, but at least I shouldn't have to worry about it freezing.

The Silver Queens are supposed to be more cold hardy. Send me some seeds, and we'll find out. What does your B. odorata look like? I have found there are 2 maybe 3 Butias that are all being called B. capitata or now odorata. One is much cold hardier than the others. I am attaching photos of the cold hardy type with explanation. This type wasn't even defoliated by the freeze. The others were, and some were killed outright. I found a nursery growing these brutes and am going to bring a bunch in to resell and replace a few in my yard. If you have this type, try to use the Silver Queen pollen on it, or send me some and I will hit mine with it.

Shot of the entire plant. It is about 9' OA with 3' from ground to new spear.

It's newest fronds are a nice blue green or even silver color on some specimens with hooks like a Jubaea, but I don't think it is a hybrid. I compared it to the stats in Hodel's article in Palms and all the numbers match up with pure Butia odorata.

The trunk is massive. It is over 2' wide and I'm not sure that it has attained it's full caliper at the ground yet. The less cold hardy ones are usually about 18" wide at the ground. The leaf bases are shaped like those on a Jubaea, on the less cold hardy ones the bases are much narrower and the portion that is exposed is actually straight so that it appears that the petiole attaches directly to the trunk. Each rank of fronds is offset from the ones above and below on the hardier type. On the less cold hardy ones the leaf bases in each rank are directly above the bases in the previous rank. The cold hardy ones have heavy fiber on the petioles for at least a foot before it changes over to teeth. I have also found the cold hardier ones to be more tolerant of soil that is alkaline. I never need to put chelated iron on this beast, but the less cold hardy type becomes extremely chlorotic in my pH 7.8 soil if I don't give them chelated iron every spring. Also, this type is very slow to mature. The less cold hardy ones flower when their trunks aren't much larger than a basketball. This one flowered for the first time only 2 years ago when it had nearly 3' of trunk (from ground to where the spear emerges).