How much sunburn can your palms handle?

[MattyB]

Paul and I often notice how much people tend to uneccesarily baby palms along when they're young, first planted, or thinking that a "shade" palm can't handle any sun when, in fact, a lot of them do quite well in sun once established. A lot of palms are surprisingly industrious little buggers and if left alone to fend for themselves, they can adapt quite well. I was looking through some old pics and found some interesting shots of some tough love in the area of sun acclimation.

Here's the infamous Lowes teddy bears there was a run on in December of '07. I lot of people waited until Spring to plant out, but I knew that getting them in the ground ASAP was the tough love they needed. Here's the freshly planted trio on a very cold Christmas Eve of 2007. Looking good right? Love that freshly planted look.

[MattyB]

And then we jump ahead 5 months, to May 2008. Well folks, it doesn't get much crispier than this. This is how crispy I feel after trying to keep pace drinking beer with Paul and Ken for a week. Caaaarrrispayyyyyy!

[MattyB]

Jump ahead another 5 months of Summer growth to October 2008 and hey, look at this. Some fresh growth. I even decided to plant a tiny 1 gallon Dypsis lastelliana behind that little shade cage to add to the red fuzz mix.

[MattyB]

And finally, 2 years and 10 months later, we have this.

[MattyB]

You can get a glimpse of the small D. lastelliana still in it's rabbit cage (shade cloth has since been removed). I also planted a Cyphophoenix alba in this area to keep the fuzz going!

[paulgila]

i never said i noticed any such thing.

now i feel all icky,like the interweb just stepped on my toe.

[John in Andalucia]

Looking good Matty! Even seedlings benefit from the rugged outdoors in our climate. Nursery grown palms look great, but for palm lovers outside the tropical zone, it's a lot more liberating to lose the visual thing in favour of some healthy acclimatization!

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Seems like you just started planting just a couple months ago... Progress looks good. That sunburnt palm feel the same way I do after being in the sun unprotected for a week or so, I'm still here.

[osideterry]

I came by your place in Spring '08, and decided to plant my Teddies in afternoon shade, based on how bad yours looked at the time. That recovery is pretty amazing.

Because of advice received on this forum, I planted Hyophore indicas and verschafeltii in full sun. After 1 year they looked so horrible I dug them up and put them back in the greenhouse. That was a year ago and they still look bad (the cool summer not helping things).

In habitat, palms sprout as seedlings in the shade of their parent palm and other trees, and gradually grow into more sun. Replicating that process makes the most sense to me.

[MattyB]

  On 11/19/2010 at 7:26 PM, pohonkelapa said:

i never said i noticed any such thing.

now i feel all icky,like the interweb just stepped on my toe.

I have it on tape (digital recorder actually). You can have this copy but my wife has the other and there's no telling what she'll do with it if I'm found dead.

[MattyB]

  On 11/19/2010 at 7:31 PM, osideterry said:

Because of advice received on this forum, I planted Hyophore indicas and verschafeltii in full sun. After 1 year they looked so horrible I dug them up and put them back in the greenhouse. That was a year ago and they still look bad (the cool summer not helping things).

See Terry, that illustrates my point exactly. You chickened out after a year. In my opinion, that's not enough time to see if they can cut the mustard. It's all about root growth and root mass and that takes time.

Here's my Hyophorbe vershafeltii, planted from 1 galons about 2 years ago, in full, all day, inland sun. They handle the sun beautifully. I've found that it's from the cold that they spot, yellow, and burn.

[paulgila]

  On 11/19/2010 at 7:32 PM, MattyB said:

  On 11/19/2010 at 7:26 PM, pohonkelapa said:

i never said i noticed any such thing.

now i feel all icky,like the interweb just stepped on my toe.

I have it on tape (digital recorder actually). You can have this copy but my wife has the other and there's no telling what she'll do with it if I'm found dead.

ok,ok.you win this time but i'll be back!

[MattyB]

  On 11/19/2010 at 7:54 PM, pohonkelapa said:

  On 11/19/2010 at 7:32 PM, MattyB said:

  On 11/19/2010 at 7:26 PM, pohonkelapa said:

i never said i noticed any such thing.

now i feel all icky,like the interweb just stepped on my toe.

I have it on tape (digital recorder actually). You can have this copy but my wife has the other and there's no telling what she'll do with it if I'm found dead.

ok,ok.you win this time but i'll be back!

Just in case you try to edit your post, I've copied it here. Muahahahahahahaeeeehhhhheeeheee hooo hooo hooo arrrr arrrr plllllllllllllllsfffffffssssssssstttt.

[paulgila]

you can edit posts now?

[osideterry]

  On 11/19/2010 at 7:35 PM, MattyB said:

[see Terry, that illustrates my point exactly. You chickened out after a year. In my opinion, that's not enough time to see if they can cut the mustard. It's all about root growth and root mass and that takes time.

Here's my Hyophorbe vershafeltii, planted from 1 galons about 2 years ago, in full, all day, inland sun. They handle the sun beautifully. I've found that it's from the cold that they spot, yellow, and burn.

Your spindles look like they are getting good protection from wind, where my Hyophorbes were just getting beat along with seeing lower temps (29-30F) their first winter in the ground.

By the way, the Rhopy I bought from you I originally planted in a spot with morning shade and afternoon sun. Last December and January's rain and wind blew over the tree that was giving it shade. 11 months of all day sun and it looks just fine.

[quaman58]

Wow Matt, those are some great recovery pictures. Give hope to the guys in Beamont who think they'll be able to grow palms there.

[sonoranfans]

I think the trick is to know really what your full sun is and what the species you are considering will tolerate. Sun intensity, duration, and humidity are probably all involved in the "sun tolerance". Clearly some "full sun" is hotter or more intense than other "full sun", and species are not equally tolerant. Its obvious that some adapting can take place, but its not clear how much and for what species. There is also the question whether one wants to wait 3 years to find out if the acclimitization worked and to what degree.

[Walter John]

Matty I did the same with a Howea forsteriana many moons ago. It was beautiful with about 5 nice green leaves at planting. It went brown, totally, I left it in the ground and avoided looking at it. A couple of years later, full green crown of leaves in full sun just like Kentias do on LHI. Sorry no pics, you want me to sign an affidavit, I will. You might consider more rednecks Matty, plenty of room, all you need is a new back I suppose.

[ariscott]

I found that it will depend on what it is. For fast growing species like D. leptochilos, it would be no problem. But for those slow snail pace big dypsis.... it might mean the end of them. I have put things straight in the sun to find that some would survive & some wouldn't (and my full sun is the same as yours, Matt... full sun all day every day - young garden problem). So now, what I do.... when I buy palms from the nursery... I would acclimatise them next to the my shadehouse for months before planting out. I find they will take the whole year to fully acclimatise in the sun after planting out even with acclimatisation. All I need to do for a year is to just keep it alive. I don't expect growth in the first year.... just surviving with a little green. And then after the first year, they will usually take off. This is true to most palms, unless you have horses which ate the last green that they have left!!!

Yes, they won't look good for over a year.... but they would grow much faster once they are off. And the bigger the palms you get from nursery... the longer it takes to fully acclimatise. My arenga undulatifolia was huge & stretched and grown in the shadehouse all its life. It took 2 years for it to take off, a few times I didn't think it would make it.... but it kept on chugging along with minimal green leaves and then now, it is away!!

So yes, it can be done. They won't be pretty for a while... but I don't believe in growing everything in the shade... I keep the shade for my shade stuff, I have plenty of those & not enough shade.

Regards, Ari

[Got Palms]

Matt im with you all of my palms have gotten tough LOVE, if they cant tolerate it it's just not worth caring for a palm for years and having it die 4 or five years later after a severe weather event, if they cant handle being planted in the winter or in direct sun from the get go it's not worth it

[Inland Palms]

  On 11/19/2010 at 8:37 PM, quaman58 said:

Wow Matt, those are some great recovery pictures. Give hope to the guys in Beamont who think they'll be able to grow palms there.

Bret,

Those pics do give me hope...great job Matty. Thanks for the thoughts Bret and don't forget the 'u' (you) in Beaumont.

Randy

[BS Man about Palms]

Damn! (typed a nice long response then evidently closed the thread and didn't post... )

Anyway, I think Ari's spot on.

But the coast has benefits AND problems. While I do have more humidity which allows more full sun, I also have cooler high temps.

SO, when I toast off some leaves, I often don't have enough heat to "jumpstart" a recovery, so a slow acclimation with shadecloth while planted is best.

(Or as Matty noted, a long time in the Container Ranch Concentration Camp followed by a plant out and tender care insures rapid growth! )

To support Matts theory, my Dypsis marojeyji saw over 95F twice in the past month and in at least 3/4 day sun. Heres how it looks now (sorry for the night shot I just took, and the bird poo too.)

Pretty darn good considering I don't think I'm babying it.

[BS Man about Palms]

On the other hand.... here was my "flowering for the first time" Dypsis pinnatifrons 5 weeks ago BEFORE the above stated high temps...

After the same temps and only maybe half day sun, it looks like this...

It looks like it might come thru, but it wont be happy....

[Tassie_Troy1971]

And they (Teddy bears ) look even better in person for you Matty !

[Mike in Nelson]

I'm over shifting young palms in and outdoors. From my experience, the process of softening and then hardening or vice versa seems to them more stress than if you just leave them to the elements from day one. My Howea that I planted last summer is still half crispy but pushing out a nice new tough spear at present which looks to be fully adjusted to it's new environment.

My Dypsis lutescens is hardening off outside and won't be going back indoors for next winter. It's going to be sink or swim.

[LilikoiLee]

Thanks Matty, and everyone who contributed posts to this informative thread. I learned a lot and am now far less worried about planting our precious palms on our newly cleared and very sunny property.

[realarch]

Ouch Bill ! Some serious damage.

I planted a Marojejya darianii in full sun about a year ago and then read post after post about it doing much better with some shade which is probably true in most cases.

I considered moving it, but it was growing so nicely I just said the heck with it. It never got crispy, but for most of the time showed leaf burn. Now it seems to have adapted and

the last two leaves show no burning at all. So, 'tough love' does work in some cases.

[Tyrone]

It all depends on what your sun intensity actually is, and whether your palm is really going to want full sun. D leptocheilos need full sun IMO, and so do Hyophorbe verschafeltia and lagenicaulis. H indica likes a bit of open canopy rainforest, but if your full sun is mild, then they'll love full sun. Most Chamaedoreas won't like hot full sun, but a friend of mine somehow seems to mostly acclimatise Chamies to full sun. I don't know how he does it. He'll also plants out two leafer Chambeyronia macrocarpa seedlings into full sun and even hookeri and they'll shrivel then come back and look OK and really stumpy. Maybe it's because he's only 5km from the coast.

Best regards

Tyrone

[BeaumontTropics]

  On 11/20/2010 at 12:27 AM, Inland Palms said:

  On 11/19/2010 at 8:37 PM, quaman58 said:

Wow Matt, those are some great recovery pictures. Give hope to the guys in Beamont who think they'll be able to grow palms there.

Bret,

Those pics do give me hope...great job Matty. Thanks for the thoughts Bret and don't forget the 'u' (you) in Beaumont.

Randy

Matty, most excellent player! It's always good to see palms rally and recover like that!

Quaman, The real trick to growing palms anywhere be it in Beaumont, or Palm Mecca of the entire world "claremont", is to start with a palm bigger than a blade of grass. Don't worry for Christmas, I'll send you a bunch of old coffee mugs you can use as pots for your larger specimens. And try to use a little spell check once in a while, will ya?

Inland,

Nice to see that someone benefitted from the public education system of Claremont many moons ago, while its more than evident others have not. Perhaps if others hadn't been to busy at "band practice" and focused a little more on their studies, they'd be as wise and as intellectually profound as you. Bundle up for the winter, bud, it's here!

-FINS UP PALM PEOPLE!

-eric

[AggiePalms]

Since I grow my tropical palms inside during the winter, they all are prime candidates for sunburn when they go outside the first warm spring day. Most just have a few brown spots, maybe an ugly leaf or so. This year, my only palms with serious leaf damage were a young Wodyetia I positioned too near the street, and a gorgeous Cryosophila probably stauracantha. I moved the Wodyetia away from the street, and it had no more brown leaves. I moved the Cryosophila into moderate shade, but it still has not recovered, with brown areas on many old leaves and not a lot of new growth. I concur that D. leptocheilos always needs sun, and even a bit of initial sunburn cannot stop it. So, all in all, not a lot of sunburn damage.

[palmcurry]

Great thread Matty. I'm trying the same thing right now with Dypsis lanceolatas. Hopefully in 2 years(at least) they will be singing.

By the way....if anyone in SoCal comes across a big box store selling Dypsis leptocheilos: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PM ME. Doesn't matter where the store is.