Jubutyagrus hybrids update

[Ampli]

I got some (((JxB)xB)xB)xB F4 from a forum member the past year and they apparently look larger than that in the picture, but without a scale is difficul to be more thorough. Moreover the seeds size can change for seeds came from the same palm, imagine for seeds that came from palm of the same offspring. So looking that pic is very difficult to said if the mother plant have Jubaea blood.

For sure they are hybrid seeds, they will be Jubutyagrus or they will be Butyagrus, in any case they will be a interesting and unusual addition for the palm collection.

I would like to buy some seeds, but IMO the shipping cost are very high and if you add at this matter the bad reputation of the italian customs service, I think it's a very hazardus purchase.

The solution for european hybrid palm lover will be hybrid seeds and seedling made in the CE, or a easy and economic shipping way to Europe.

[MAUSER]

And finally ... This completes my statement, I don´t want to convince anyone of anything.

If this was a hybrid ... (I´m not convinced) I don´t know how someone is crossing a Jubaea 45 years, to finally have a butia, looking like butia, butia seeds, and problems for cross hybrids (supposed low yield) ... Does the work has been lost?. Not It´s better to buy a butia and finish before?.

These seeds are the same as Butia hybrids (butiaX...), I don´t see Jubaea nowhere yet.

Antonio in the end ,are you saying that they are seeds of Butia x Syagrus ?

Yes, no problem

If I have time, and if someone is interested, I´ll get some pictures of ButiaXJubaea F1, 3 year old.

Edited August 28, 2011 by MAUSER

[Alberto]

This is my JubautiF2,probably (B x J )x B,originated from Dick Douglas palm. I crossed it with tableland queen and the seeds I´ll show also below. The spathas show clearly the typical tomentum it inherited from Jubaea also the more flat fronds (big angle from one leaflet to another)

[Alberto]

This is my JubautiF2,probably (B x J )x B,originated from Dick Douglas palm. I crossed it with tableland queen and the seeds I´ll show also below. The spathas show clearly the typical tomentum it inherited from Jubaea also the more flat fronds (big angle from one leaflet to another)

[Alberto]

The more flat fronds then a pure Butia.

Very upright but with arching at the ´´softer´´tip of the frond

[Alberto]

This are seeds of (BxJ)xB -below on my palm and B.eriospatha x queen on the fingers.

[Adam from Oz]

Nice stuff, Alberto!

A bit of a on the first pic.

Had a hearty laugh at the presence of your wine bottle. Kinda like Dave from SoCal's shoe.

Cheers,

Adam

[Alberto]

First is my oldest (BxJ)x S (from Patric)

Detail of the frond (little ´´plumose´´ ?)

[Alberto]

Other four (BxJ)xS. All from Patric.

First one with softer somewhat drooping leaflets. Second with stiffer leaflets like the first one (oldest palm).Third growing on a shadier spot also with more relaxed leaflets.

4th growing nice in more clayish soil

[TimHopper]

VERY NICE Alberto, Your photos are always exceptional. I enjoyed the tour around your garden. Tim

[Alberto]

Thanks Adam and Tim!

One correction: The seeds on the pic above are from [(B x J) xB] x Syagrus and from B.eriopatha x Syagrus.

The size is similar to Tim Hoppers seeds.....

[MAUSER]

Beautiful pictures and very instructive, Alberto.

Yes, here is ButiaXJubaea, but does anyone have a JubaeaXButia to compare with that of TH?

Because I think we all have ButiaXJubaea.

I keep saying how difficult it is JubaeaXButia, this is very rare.

In case anyone gets lost ... is not the same ... JubaeaXButia that ButiaXJubaea

[MAUSER]

Thanks Adam and Tim!

One correction: The seeds on the pic above are from [(B x J) xB] x Syagrus and from B.eriopatha x Syagrus.

The size is similar to Tim Hoppers seeds.....

Hi

You said that your seeds (ButiaX) ... They are the similar size as those of TH, which confirms my theory. This confirms what I've been saying (the seeds of TH is ButiaX)

I don't see Jubaea´s trace anywhere.

Although I have another theory of the origin of the palm of TH, but that keep for me.

You and you, and you, and you... can continue all you want... the truth has only one way

Adios amigos

Edited August 29, 2011 by MAUSER

[sergiskan]

Other four (BxJ)xS. All from Patric.

First one with softer somewhat drooping leaflets. Second with stiffer leaflets like the first one (oldest palm).Third growing on a shadier spot also with more relaxed leaflets.

4th growing nice in more clayish soil

hello Alberto

I really enjoy watching your palms ...

regards

[sergiskan]

Hi

The hybrid JubaeaXbutia, more or less should look like this. (It isn´t see very well because reflect the sun, but you can get one idea)

Regards

hello Mauser

that Palm is getting monstrous ...

nice looking

regards...

[TimHopper]

Alberto, I really like the look of your BxJxS . I think that will be even more amazing as it gets older. I enjoyed looking at all of your palms, but this one is my favorite. Tim

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=120378

Edited August 29, 2011 by TimHopper

[Nigel]

Alberto,s JxB are particularly interesting, because they are grown from same seed yet display the segregation you would expect of F2 generation.

1 is more like Jubaea, 1 is more like Butia, and I believe the others are intermediate.

[Alberto]

Alberto, I really like the look of your BxJxS . I think that will be even more amazing as it gets older. I enjoyed looking at all of your palms, but this one is my favorite. Tim

http://www.palmtalk....ttach_id=120378

Yes,I like them too!

All my B.eriospathas have really big seeds, and crossed with Syagrous the seeds are +- halve or even tinier then there normal size. So Tim Hoppers (JxB)xB being F2 crossed with Syagrus shows the normal expected size,I think!

My 3 Jubeutias (this is the correct name of both crosses BxJ and JxB according ´´Palms´´) are 3 totally different palms. One is slower and more Jubaea like,the other is very silver and looks like Butia but shows some brown patches of tomentum on the spathas and the other is the palm on the pic above.

[PalmGuyWC]

Reference the comments from Nigel, Alberto and Mauser: I recently viewed some palms growing in a public park in San Jose Calif. The palms are very old and are supposedly Jubaea X Butia. For the most part the palms look more Jubaea, but the trunks are not so thick as a Jubaea. They were blooming and the spathes had tomentum and the flowers looked like Jubaeas. The palms probably have never been fertilized and they looked rather neglected. There are photographs of these palms in a recent issue of PALMS.

The taxonomist, because of rules, call them Jubutia, regardless of which was the mother tree which produced the seeds. I disagree with this concept as the hybrid palms look entirely different depending on which palm was the mother. As Nigel mentions more characteristics are inherited from the seed tree. The Butia X Jubaea is a much more attractive palm than the Jubaea X Butia.

I have a Bujubagrus (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus and a Syagrus X (Bujubaea). They both were planted about 2.5 years ago. Both palms look somewhat similar but the Bujubagrus is growing about twice as fast as the other palm and is much more robust. The Syagrus X Bujubaea is a more delicate looking palm and the fronds are a flat plane. They both have been exposed to 25F with no damage.

Dick

[MAUSER]

Reference the comments from Nigel, Alberto and Mauser: I recently viewed some palms growing in a public park in San Jose Calif. The palms are very old and are supposedly Jubaea X Butia. For the most part the palms look more Jubaea, but the trunks are not so thick as a Jubaea. They were blooming and the spathes had tomentum and the flowers looked like Jubaeas. The palms probably have never been fertilized and they looked rather neglected. There are photographs of these palms in a recent issue of PALMS.

The taxonomist, because of rules, call them Jubutia, regardless of which was the mother tree which produced the seeds. I disagree with this concept as the hybrid palms look entirely different depending on which palm was the mother. As Nigel mentions more characteristics are inherited from the seed tree. The Butia X Jubaea is a much more attractive palm than the Jubaea X Butia.

I have a Bujubagrus (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus and a Syagrus X (Bujubaea). They both were planted about 2.5 years ago. Both palms look somewhat similar but the Bujubagrus is growing about twice as fast as the other palm and is much more robust. The Syagrus X Bujubaea is a more delicate looking palm and the fronds are a flat plane. They both have been exposed to 25F with no damage.

Dick

I agree that, the Butia X Jubaea is a much more attractive palm than the Jubaea X Butia.

I like hear and read disinterested arguments, based only on science and experience.

I give you a positive (+1)

Edited August 30, 2011 by MAUSER

[Adam from Oz]

Reference the comments from Nigel, Alberto and Mauser: I recently viewed some palms growing in a public park in San Jose Calif. The palms are very old and are supposedly Jubaea X Butia. For the most part the palms look more Jubaea, but the trunks are not so thick as a Jubaea. They were blooming and the spathes had tomentum and the flowers looked like Jubaeas. The palms probably have never been fertilized and they looked rather neglected. There are photographs of these palms in a recent issue of PALMS.

The taxonomist, because of rules, call them Jubutia, regardless of which was the mother tree which produced the seeds. I disagree with this concept as the hybrid palms look entirely different depending on which palm was the mother. As Nigel mentions more characteristics are inherited from the seed tree. The Butia X Jubaea is a much more attractive palm than the Jubaea X Butia.

I have a Bujubagrus (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus and a Syagrus X (Bujubaea). They both were planted about 2.5 years ago. Both palms look somewhat similar but the Bujubagrus is growing about twice as fast as the other palm and is much more robust. The Syagrus X Bujubaea is a more delicate looking palm and the fronds are a flat plane. They both have been exposed to 25F with no damage.

Dick

I agree that, the Butia X Jubaea is a much more attractive palm than the Jubaea X Butia.

I like hear and read disinterested arguments, based only on science and experience.

I give you a positive (+1)

So, where's your Science? I'm yet to read any from you. Just inferences and opinions.

"I agree that, the Butia X Jubaea is a much more attractive palm than the Jubaea X Butia." is opinion, not scientific fact.

Now, as you like science so much, use reproduceable evidence and not emotive conjecture like your:

"You said that your seeds (ButiaX) ... They are the similar size as those of TH, which confirms my theory. This confirms what I've been saying (the seeds of TH is ButiaX)

I don't see Jubaea´s trace anywhere.

Although I have another theory of the origin of the palm of TH, but that keep for me."

Just how was your theory confirmed? Where is the empirical evidence? All I see is opinion after opinion masquerading as "facts" to you.

Please share your theory that you keep for yourself and kindly have it backed with a decent hypothesis and data that can be readily duplicated.

Then I'll give you a rated numerical score.

[Nigel]

Couple of F1 JxB, first pic in Spain taken by me, second pic from fred Calmant taken in Chile

[MAUSER]

So, where's your Science? I'm yet to read any from you. Just inferences and opinions. Where is your science? .. Yours... I'm yet to read any from you. Just inferences and opinions.

"I agree that, the Butia X Jubaea is a much more attractive palm than the Jubaea X Butia." is opinion, not scientific fact. But it´s an experience... and I possibly, about that, I have more than you

Now, as you like science so much, use reproduceable evidence and not emotive conjecture like your:

"You said that your seeds (ButiaX) ... They are the similar size as those of TH, which confirms my theory. This confirms what I've been saying (the seeds of TH is ButiaX)

I don't see Jubaea´s trace anywhere. If I say one thing and someone trying to help another says what I'm saying ... Why do you get bother?

Although I have another theory of the origin of the palm of TH, but that keep for me." is quite clear... Why do you get bother?

Just how was your theory confirmed? Where is the empirical evidence? All I see is opinion after opinion masquerading as "facts" to you.

Please share your theory that you keep for yourself and kindly have it backed with a decent hypothesis and data that can be readily duplicated.

And how do you know what I say is opinion, and what TH says is cience?. Have you seen notarial documents, genetic testing, or something about saying that TH palm is right, and not me? ... Show them to me now... Or shut up, please.

Then I'll give you a rated numerical score.

No your numerical score for me please... You can give them to those scientists there are here.

When I get Butia hybrid, I know what is it, why? ... because I have done.

But a palm tree in a park that is unknown, and someone picks up a seed, and gives it to another guy many years later ...and plant and then says he sells seeds JUBAEAXBUTIAXBUTIAXSYAGRUS ...

Everything all right, everything SCIENTIFIC for you?

Why?

I see that TH has good friends, but eventually end up hurting him.

Regards

Edited August 30, 2011 by MAUSER

[Alberto]

I don´t know if I agree that BxJ are more atractive than JxB.......

When I remember the Tauranga JxB in NZ..... :drool:

http://www.pbase.com/edgegallery/image/31760206

[MAUSER]

I don´t know if I agree that BxJ are more atractive than JxB.......

When I remember the Tauranga JxB in NZ..... :drool:

http://www.pbase.com.../image/31760206

(+1)

Finally we going to do a beauty contest ... Please, you won´t call me for jury. I trust you.

I´ll only serve the drinks

Edited August 30, 2011 by MAUSER

[sonoranfans]

So, where's your Science? I'm yet to read any from you. Just inferences and opinions. Where is your science? .. Yours... I'm yet to read any from you. Just inferences and opinions.

"I agree that, the Butia X Jubaea is a much more attractive palm than the Jubaea X Butia." is opinion, not scientific fact. But it´s an experience... and I possibly, about that, I have more than you

Now, as you like science so much, use reproduceable evidence and not emotive conjecture like your:

"You said that your seeds (ButiaX) ... They are the similar size as those of TH, which confirms my theory. This confirms what I've been saying (the seeds of TH is ButiaX)

I don't see Jubaea´s trace anywhere. If I say one thing and someone trying to help another says what I'm saying ... Why do you get bother?

Although I have another theory of the origin of the palm of TH, but that keep for me." is quite clear... Why do you get bother?

Just how was your theory confirmed? Where is the empirical evidence? All I see is opinion after opinion masquerading as "facts" to you.

Please share your theory that you keep for yourself and kindly have it backed with a decent hypothesis and data that can be readily duplicated.

And how do you know what I say is opinion, and what TH says is cience?. Have you seen notarial documents, genetic testing, or something about saying that TH palm is right, and not me? ... Show them to me now... Or shut up, please.

Then I'll give you a rated numerical score.

No your numerical score for me please... You can give them to those scientists there are here.

When I get Butia hybrid, I know what is it, why? ... because I have done.

But a palm tree in a park that is unknown, and someone picks up a seed, and gives it to another guy many years later ...and plant and then says he sells seeds JUBAEAXBUTIAXBUTIAXSYAGRUS ...

Everything all right, everything SCIENTIFIC for you?

Why?

I see that TH has good friends, but eventually end up hurting him.

Regards

To some, seeing is believing..... and that can work some of the time. But unfortunately "seeing characteristics" in a photo or even in person can come up short as a diagnostic in evaluating the variability of hybrids. Even pure species like sabals can be difficult using a mere photo. I have seen such variation in mule palms that being certain in evaluation of the heredity of 3 way hybrids using a photo of a single example seems laughable. But is is amusing to read the discourse.

[PalmGuyWC]

This discussion is rapidly drifting off topic, and I'm not argueing with anyone, but I'm positive my Butia X Jubaea is the real thing. I don't think Don Hodel would have risked his reputation in describing the palm in palms if he was not sure it was the real thing. Don also had a pier review from another expert in the UK. The palm has several characteristics that leads one that it is a Bujubaea. The seeds are round like a Jubaea, the spathe is covered with rust colored tomentum, and the trunk is much thicker than a Butia but smaller in diamater than a Jubaea. The flowers are also magenta as would be found on a Jubaea. The palm is also self sterile, but has been crossed with Butia and Syagrus.

Dick

[TimHopper]

Edited August 30, 2011 by TimHopper

[MAUSER]

[TimHopper]

I don´t know if I agree that BxJ are more atractive than JxB.......

When I remember the Tauranga JxB in NZ..... :drool:

http://www.pbase.com/edgegallery/image/31760206

Alberto, That Tauranga JxB has always been one of my favorites. Malcolm Thomas sent me seeds from this tree years ago, and I have a few of them growing here in Florida. He says that they are likely pollinated by nearby Butia. Unfortunately, they can't handle the heat and humidity here and nearly die every Summer. Through the Winter they recover and lookk great by May-June. I will get a photo and post it later. My largest is still in a 15 gallon container because I have tried it in different locations to avoid heat.

[Nigel]

I don´t know if I agree that BxJ are more atractive than JxB.......

When I remember the Tauranga JxB in NZ..... :drool:

http://www.pbase.com/edgegallery/image/31760206

Alberto, That Tauranga JxB has always been one of my favorites. Malcolm Thomas sent me seeds from this tree years ago, and I have a few of them growing here in Florida. He says that they are likely pollinated by nearby Butia. Unfortunately, they can't handle the heat and humidity here and nearly die every Summer. Through the Winter they recover and lookk great by May-June. I will get a photo and post it later. My largest is still in a 15 gallon container because I have tried it in different locations to avoid heat.

Tim, I am not convinced, I have one that looks very Jubaea like , I dont see 75% butia in it. I have the feeling a few flowers are self pollinating.

I understand the palm is now some distance from the nearest butias since it was moved.

[TimHopper]

I don´t know if I agree that BxJ are more atractive than JxB.......

When I remember the Tauranga JxB in NZ..... :drool:

http://www.pbase.com/edgegallery/image/31760206

Alberto, That Tauranga JxB has always been one of my favorites. Malcolm Thomas sent me seeds from this tree years ago, and I have a few of them growing here in Florida. He says that they are likely pollinated by nearby Butia. Unfortunately, they can't handle the heat and humidity here and nearly die every Summer. Through the Winter they recover and lookk great by May-June. I will get a photo and post it later. My largest is still in a 15 gallon container because I have tried it in different locations to avoid heat.

Tim, I am not convinced, I have one that looks very Jubaea like , I dont see 75% butia in it. I have the feeling a few flowers are self pollinating.

I understand the palm is now some distance from the nearest butias since it was moved.

Nigel, I also thought that some must be self pollinating since I have heard reports that the seed sets were heavy. If it is some distance frome Butia you would expect a lower seed set. Here is my oldest Tauranga JxB offspring. I hate to post a picture with it looking like this because it looked so good two months ago. Well, Here it is....OH, and yes , I already know MAUSER..."It look like pure Butia to You"

[iamjv]

Tim if you want to donate that beauty of a hybrid to a good home in Texas just let me know.... I can put it next to your BxS that is luv'n it here! Jv

[TimHopper]

JV, You are first in line to raise my tree. I am going to try one more Summer here before giving up on it. I may seriously have to eventually send this tree to a more fitting climate. I have tried small Jubaeas here with the same results. I wonder if the bigger problem is heat or humidity. Tim

[sonoranfans]

Well I can say that my (3) "jubutyagrus" are apparently less tolerant of our wet summers than butias, syagrus, and x-butyagrus. Im growing these along side the others and the only ones spotting on the leaflets are the x-jubutyagrus. So whatever is in their genes is not liking our wet season. The butias in the area look great, and I havent seen a spot on anything but my braheas( clara, supersilver, dulcis) and these hybrids all of which have plenty of spotting in full sun . Somebody should tell them they are not supposed to spot in the wet because they "look like mule palms".

[MAUSER]

. Well, Here it is....OH, and yes , I already know MAUSER..."It look like pure Butia to You"

Hi

Now I can´t see the pictures, a safety filter that has this computer of my work, but this afternoon I´ll say you that I think about each of them. I haven´t nothing against you, for the moment. And I think youre a source of knowledge. I enjoy your threads about hybridizations illustrated with good photos.

But if from the beginning, you should defended your theory, the qualities of your palm compared to a Jubaea, Example: (Look this, My palm has this quality or characteristic, and it has something else, look, look how was true), It would have been enough for me. Instead of leaving the job to others members, and the issue was between you and me, I thought... none of this had happened.

Best Wishes

Edited August 31, 2011 by MAUSER

[Nigel]

Tim, your tauranga plant reminds me of mine. I also had terible problems with it until I kept it out of the rain. In fact out of 18 seedlings of JxB tauranga only 2 survived and of 15 of Albertos, Butia eriospthax Jubaea only 1 survived. Even 50% Jubaea here in a seedling is still fatal when faced with the summer rain and humidity.

First pics of my JxB Tauranga.

[Nigel]

Now put it next to a BxJ F2 of Dick Douglas, same age, the Dick Douglas palm grows easily here.

[Nigel]

Now finally put the Dick Douglas BxJ F2 next to a Butia eriospatha and you can almost see no difference.

My conclusion is that the tauranga plant does not seem to have 75% Butia and is likely self pollinated.

Oddly enough somebody posted something similar on the Hardy sub trop board, similar observations to mine.

http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1314734997.html

Edited August 31, 2011 by Nigel

[merrillwx]

Gentlemen:

We have just had the wettest winter in Florida in my memory at both Gainesville and Forest Grove, a few miles North but much colder in the winter. Rainfall has been very localized here; Neighbors like Jason have had a rather sparse summer. My Jubutyagrus at Forest grove is putting up the best appearance yet! The one at Gainesville still has better foliage, tho! Neither has seemed to have a problem w/ excessive moisture.

I've tried many times over many years to cross B. yatay and Queen and have failed - it sounds as if some of you have done much better!

Please let me know!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited September 2, 2011 by merrillwx