Phoenix dactylifera???

[mjff]

I ordered a Phoenix dactylifera "Medjool" a year and a half ago. I understood it getting defoliated last winter, but it looked like this after lows of 23F and a couple of heavy frosts this winter.

The damage is almost the same as my Phoenix humilis which is about 30' away. I have another dact about 30' away in the other direction and it looks like this. Which one isn't a dact?

[Kumar]

My view is completely uneducated (which you no doubt know by now) but I daresay the bottom photo is less like a date palm than the top.

[sonoranfans]

The first looks like a phoenix mutt hybrid that has some CIDP and has been thoroughly tortured, abused. the second "dactylifera" looks closer to a true dactylifera, but it could be a hybrid with another, perhaps sylvestris. I have seen lots of dactylifera having lived in phoenix arizona for 10 years. Some people buy mature ones with 15+ ft of trunk that are ready to fruit and they are expensive(~15k). They are all over phoenix in public places and common areas. The yellow dates form in huge clusters, must be more than 100 lbs on some of the big ones. True dactyliferas do not have stubby short fronds and are not that color green. The fronds tend to be rigid not curved as in the first pic, they have little bend in them and the leaflets are plumose and not closely arranged on the petiole. And if there is any green it is silver green, most are bluish grey/green. Phoenix hybridize readily and you probably could do well to find a true dactylifera in phoenix AZ since the number species of phoenix that are grown there is much less widespread. CIDP are rarely used in public planting areas(except the zoo)as they are not as tough in the dry heat in low water conditions. There are almost no sylvestris, rupicolas, or reclinatas all of which struggle to survive in phoenix without lots of TLC.

Edited January 8, 2011 by sonoranfans

[mjff]

The first looks like a phoenix mutt hybrid that has some CIDP and has been thoroughly tortured, abused. the second "dactylifera" looks closer to a true dactylifera, but it could be a hybrid with another, perhaps sylvestris. I have seen lots of dactylifera having lived in phoenix arizona for 10 years. Some people buy mature ones with 15+ ft of trunk that are ready to fruit and they are expensive(~15k). They are all over phoenix in public places and common areas. The yellow dates form in huge clusters, must be more than 100 lbs on some of the big ones. True dactyliferas do not have stubby short fronds and are not that color green. The fronds tend to be rigid not curved as in the first pic, they have little bend in them and the leaflets are plumose and not closely arranged on the petiole. And if there is any green it is silver green, most are bluish grey/green. Phoenix hybridize readily and you probably could do well to find a true dactylifera in phoenix AZ since the number species of phoenix that are grown there is much less widespread. CIDP are rarely used in public planting areas(except the zoo)as they are not as tough in the dry heat in low water conditions. There are almost no sylvestris, rupicolas, or reclinatas all of which struggle to survive in phoenix without lots of TLC.

The first came thoroughly root bound in a 45 gallon container, suffered transplant shock, then was defoliated last winter when we got down to 12F. It recovered over the summer, but is almost a dead ringer for the Phoenix humilis I have planted nearby in terms of color and form. The second came from Tad, and was field grown. It is a nice bluish grey/green, and matches your description of the fronds on a dact. It wasn't even completely defoliated last winter with the spear and opening fronds remaining undamaged even after 12 hours below 15F.

[sonoranfans]

The first looks like a phoenix mutt hybrid that has some CIDP and has been thoroughly tortured, abused. the second "dactylifera" looks closer to a true dactylifera, but it could be a hybrid with another, perhaps sylvestris. I have seen lots of dactylifera having lived in phoenix arizona for 10 years. Some people buy mature ones with 15+ ft of trunk that are ready to fruit and they are expensive(~15k). They are all over phoenix in public places and common areas. The yellow dates form in huge clusters, must be more than 100 lbs on some of the big ones. True dactyliferas do not have stubby short fronds and are not that color green. The fronds tend to be rigid not curved as in the first pic, they have little bend in them and the leaflets are plumose and not closely arranged on the petiole. And if there is any green it is silver green, most are bluish grey/green. Phoenix hybridize readily and you probably could do well to find a true dactylifera in phoenix AZ since the number species of phoenix that are grown there is much less widespread. CIDP are rarely used in public planting areas(except the zoo)as they are not as tough in the dry heat in low water conditions. There are almost no sylvestris, rupicolas, or reclinatas all of which struggle to survive in phoenix without lots of TLC.

The first came thoroughly root bound in a 45 gallon container, suffered transplant shock, then was defoliated last winter when we got down to 12F. It recovered over the summer, but is almost a dead ringer for the Phoenix humilis I have planted nearby in terms of color and form. The second came from Tad, and was field grown. It is a nice bluish grey/green, and matches your description of the fronds on a dact. It wasn't even completely defoliated last winter with the spear and opening fronds remaining undamaged even after 12 hours below 15F.

The second seems to be behaving more like a dactylifera with the cold tolerance, they are about equal to purebred washie filifera in the desert. I find the leaflet spacing of the dactyliferas to be the widest of the phoenix. I do think its hard to get some species of purebred phoenix from texas or florida, too many plantings/farms. The most suspected hybridizers would be sylvestris which are heavily grown in both florida and texas, and that will take time to see the difference, it will be in the sparseness of leaflets. Leaflet spacing looks kind of sparse in a 6' overall juvenile. The only place I'd trust a purebred reclinata is california. I have rupicolas that look pure bred, bought in florida. I suppose its crap shoot with phoenix in many cases.

Edited January 8, 2011 by sonoranfans

[mjff]

The first looks like a phoenix mutt hybrid that has some CIDP and has been thoroughly tortured, abused. the second "dactylifera" looks closer to a true dactylifera, but it could be a hybrid with another, perhaps sylvestris. I have seen lots of dactylifera having lived in phoenix arizona for 10 years. Some people buy mature ones with 15+ ft of trunk that are ready to fruit and they are expensive(~15k). They are all over phoenix in public places and common areas. The yellow dates form in huge clusters, must be more than 100 lbs on some of the big ones. True dactyliferas do not have stubby short fronds and are not that color green. The fronds tend to be rigid not curved as in the first pic, they have little bend in them and the leaflets are plumose and not closely arranged on the petiole. And if there is any green it is silver green, most are bluish grey/green. Phoenix hybridize readily and you probably could do well to find a true dactylifera in phoenix AZ since the number species of phoenix that are grown there is much less widespread. CIDP are rarely used in public planting areas(except the zoo)as they are not as tough in the dry heat in low water conditions. There are almost no sylvestris, rupicolas, or reclinatas all of which struggle to survive in phoenix without lots of TLC.

The first came thoroughly root bound in a 45 gallon container, suffered transplant shock, then was defoliated last winter when we got down to 12F. It recovered over the summer, but is almost a dead ringer for the Phoenix humilis I have planted nearby in terms of color and form. The second came from Tad, and was field grown. It is a nice bluish grey/green, and matches your description of the fronds on a dact. It wasn't even completely defoliated last winter with the spear and opening fronds remaining undamaged even after 12 hours below 15F.

The second seems to be behaving more like a dactylifera with the cold tolerance, they are abpout equal to purebred washie filifera in the desert. I find the leaflet spacing of the dactyliferas to be the widest of the phoenix. I do think its hard to get some species of purebred phoenix from texas or florida, too many plantings/farms. The most suspected hybridizers would be sylvestris which are heavily grown in both florida and texas, and that will take time to see the difference, it will be in the sparseness of leaflets. Leaflet spacing looks kind of sparse in a 6' overall juvenile. The only place I'd trust a purebred reclinata is california. I have rupicolas that look pure bred, bought in florida. I suppose its crap shoot with phoenix in many cases.

You think a pure Phoenix is tough, try getting a pure Washingtonia filifera in TX. Near as I can tell they are all filibustas. I hope the seeds I bought from Ortanique are true. We really need the extra hardiness of the pure filiferas where I'm at.

[Mark Heath]

Hey Martin,

As Tom has said, i also think that the second pic is Dactylifera, although there is alot of green to the fronds. I have about 12 true Dactyliferas here. A very good childhood friend of mine sent me seeds from when he was in the first gulf war desert storm stationed in Kuwait. At the base there was a few Dactys and he had zero problems w/ shipping me seeds and i had good germination. I'll take some pics to show you what a pure true dacty looks like.

Also, i had 22f here w/ heavy frost and they just giggled, zero damage!

When i get time i'll take some pictures for you.

Also, the first pic shows a CIDP hybrid/mix Humilis to me. I have many different Pheonix here, some pure, but most are not.

[mjff]

Hey Martin,

As Tom has said, i also think that the second pic is Dactylifera, although there is alot of green to the fronds. I have about 12 true Dactyliferas here. A very good childhood friend of mine sent me seeds from when he was in the first gulf war desert storm stationed in Kuwait. At the base there was a few Dactys and he had zero problems w/ shipping me seeds and i had good germination. I'll take some pics to show you what a pure true dacty looks like.

Also, i had 22f here w/ heavy frost and they just giggled, zero damage!

When i get time i'll take some pictures for you.

Also, the first pic shows a CIDP hybrid/mix Humilis to me. I have many different Pheonix here, some pure, but most are not.

Thanks Mark! The dact in the second pic is a lot bluer than the photo shows. My camera seems to make everything look greener than it really is. Great for green palms, but makes all my silver and blue ones look bad.

I'm skeptical the first one has any CIDP in it. My CIDP's are undamaged so far, and the trunk on it is too skinny. With luck it will flower this year, and maybe that will shed some light on it assuming I don't dig it up and move it which will probably kill it first.

[sonoranfans]

The first looks like a phoenix mutt hybrid that has some CIDP and has been thoroughly tortured, abused. the second "dactylifera" looks closer to a true dactylifera, but it could be a hybrid with another, perhaps sylvestris. I have seen lots of dactylifera having lived in phoenix arizona for 10 years. Some people buy mature ones with 15+ ft of trunk that are ready to fruit and they are expensive(~15k). They are all over phoenix in public places and common areas. The yellow dates form in huge clusters, must be more than 100 lbs on some of the big ones. True dactyliferas do not have stubby short fronds and are not that color green. The fronds tend to be rigid not curved as in the first pic, they have little bend in them and the leaflets are plumose and not closely arranged on the petiole. And if there is any green it is silver green, most are bluish grey/green. Phoenix hybridize readily and you probably could do well to find a true dactylifera in phoenix AZ since the number species of phoenix that are grown there is much less widespread. CIDP are rarely used in public planting areas(except the zoo)as they are not as tough in the dry heat in low water conditions. There are almost no sylvestris, rupicolas, or reclinatas all of which struggle to survive in phoenix without lots of TLC.

The first came thoroughly root bound in a 45 gallon container, suffered transplant shock, then was defoliated last winter when we got down to 12F. It recovered over the summer, but is almost a dead ringer for the Phoenix humilis I have planted nearby in terms of color and form. The second came from Tad, and was field grown. It is a nice bluish grey/green, and matches your description of the fronds on a dact. It wasn't even completely defoliated last winter with the spear and opening fronds remaining undamaged even after 12 hours below 15F.

The second seems to be behaving more like a dactylifera with the cold tolerance, they are abpout equal to purebred washie filifera in the desert. I find the leaflet spacing of the dactyliferas to be the widest of the phoenix. I do think its hard to get some species of purebred phoenix from texas or florida, too many plantings/farms. The most suspected hybridizers would be sylvestris which are heavily grown in both florida and texas, and that will take time to see the difference, it will be in the sparseness of leaflets. Leaflet spacing looks kind of sparse in a 6' overall juvenile. The only place I'd trust a purebred reclinata is california. I have rupicolas that look pure bred, bought in florida. I suppose its crap shoot with phoenix in many cases.

You think a pure Phoenix is tough, try getting a pure Washingtonia filifera in TX. Near as I can tell they are all filibustas. I hope the seeds I bought from Ortanique are true. We really need the extra hardiness of the pure filiferas where I'm at.

I hear you on the washies. Perhaps if you take a road trip to AZ you could bring a pure filifera back. They were not too hard to find there a few years back. I understand there are stands in AZ in areas that the robustas wont survive. Robustas wont survive without irrigation in arizona, I think that helps keep a supply of pure filiferas around. A large pure bred filifera is a very cold hardy palm in the desert, never seen leaflet burn on one even down to 18F in some areas while the local robustas got burned good.

[TropicPalms7]

second is def the dactylifera. the second looks exactly like one i have defoilated from cold and all, i think its a CIDP and Sylvestries hybrid maybe. good luck with your nice looking palms -Justin in Vb

[mjff]

This is my Phoenix humilis before the frost turned it into a twin of pic #1 above. Kicking myself for forgetting to throw a frost blanket over it. We're supposed to get down to 16F Wednesday morning, so that will finish the fronds off anyway. They'll grow back pretty quickly. Notice the similarity?

[PalmTom]

I agree with Mark. I just got back from Iraq this weekend and I've seen quit a few non-hybridized P. dactyliferas over there. Although the ones I'm used to seeing have a much more suckering habit when younger and are a little bluer in color. Tom