Please Suggest Unusual Small Palms

[hydrophyte]

I am new here. I have never really grown palms but suddenly I want to start a collection.

I live in a modest small house in USDA Zone 4b-5a, so my options are limited. I plan to try out the few cold-hardy selections that might be able to make it here with protection, but I am more interested in smaller houseplants and really small palms that might work for terrarium culture. I also want to learn more about short-statured semi-aquatic species because I have a couple opportunities (not in my home) for planting in warm indoor ponds.

Do you have any suggestions for species and sources? I am a true neophyte so I would appreciate any ideas. It doesn't look like they are commercially available, but I am so intrigued by little variegated plants like Licuala mapu.

Thanks for considering this!

Edited January 20, 2011 by hydrophyte

[paulgila]

that is a mighty SMALL niche.

cant help ya.

[hydrophyte]

Well it sounds as though that L. matanensis is a difficult plant, but they do have seeds at rarepalmseeds.com. They are also offering the similar but apparetnly easier and cheaper L. dasyantha. Has anybody had any experience with that one?

And wow that Chamaedorea tuerckheimii is a real cool little plant too. I see that for sale here and there but it's not cheap. If I pamper that one in a terrarium will it grow for me?

I really like to the idea of starting seeds, but if I commit the space I want to take some time to make a few good selections.

Edited January 20, 2011 by hydrophyte

[Scott Cohen]

Try licuala triphylla, they stay under 1ft

[hydrophyte]

Wow thanks for that tip Scott. That's a cool little plant.

[Walter John]

Sabal minor variegated.

[John in Andalucia]

Well it sounds as though that L. matanensis is a difficult plant, but they do have seeds at rarepalmseeds.com. They are also offering the similar but apparetnly easier and cheaper L. dasyantha. Has anybody had any experience with that one?

And wow that Chamaedorea tuerckheimii is a real cool little plant too. I see that for sale here and there but it's not cheap. If I pamper that one in a terrarium will it grow for me?

I really like to the idea of starting seeds, but if I commit the space I want to take some time to make a few good selections.

PALM BEGINNER ALERT!

You picked 3 of the trickiest little palms to grow, and I guarantee they will bring you frustration and sadness, long-term. I know how you feel and have been there, but after trying to think you will go all-out to perform palm miracles, once you are broke you will wake up and seek out the prettiest little palms that will work for you!

When Wal said Sabal minor variegated, that really is a kick into reality and why you should love palms for their uniqueness, whilst befitting of your environment, whether indoors or out (some palms just know). If you must have Licuala, then peltata v. sumawongii is 50 times easier to grow, moreover it will grow, and not just look at you with one tiny leaf for a year until it dies! Kerriodoxa elegans is a rare, beautiful but robust palm that appears almost bullet-proof outside of the tropics. Licuala spinosa will also perform well, being easier and faster still than Licuala peltata v. sumawongii and always looking green!

Brahea moorei is a very honourable collectors palm. If you want to be an enthusiast, I guarantee that your satisfaction will eventually derive from making the best choices, and that in no way discounts super-rare palms. I also understand the desire to at least give it a shot with the super-dooper palms with alien beauty, as we have all been there! In 3 years I have misplaced at least $4000 on plants and seeds I shouldn't have bothered with, and I am in a zone 10 micro climate. I am just saying!

[aussiearoids]

There must be a few tiny Dypsis ,,, didn't someone post a pic of something like D minuta ..

And some of the Vonitra group Dypsis like lots of water and one of them is fairly small ,, utilis maybe ?

Hydriastele rheophytica does not get to big and should grow at a ponds edge maybe even submerged , as would Chamadorea cataractarum .

[tew]

I live in Zone 7b and grow most of my palms indoors for at least part of the year, some all year round. I had some success with L.Mapu but water got in the crown and rotted the tree out. I grow c. Tuerckheimii in with orchids so am able to keep the required humidity at an acceptable level. Rhapis is always a great indoor palm and some of the Japanese cutivars I have obtained are highly variegated and very easy to maintain in the house. I have several T.Wagnerianus and the one I've had the longest (about 7 years) is almost Bonsai looking. It stands about 12"high and has very small and conpact fronds on a thick trunk. Good luck with your search, it's a great hobby!

[PalmatierMeg]

Some unique small palms:

Licuala malajana (I think it stays small)

Dypsis lutescens Vietnam dwarf - clumps but stays about 18" tall

Rhapis laosensis - also 18-24" tall

Chamaedorea adscendens

Rhapis Super Dwarf - just a few inches tall

Dypsis mcdonaldiana

Also, the common Chamaedorea elegans (parlor palm, erroneously called Neanthe bella) can make a dandy houseplant for little money. This is actually a solitary palm but is sold in box stores as seedlings jammed in a small pot. I bought a pot of 6-9" seedlings for $3.50, carefully washed away the potting mix, then separated and potted up each little palm - ended up with nearly 40 individual palms. When grown as they should be - solitary - they are a pretty little palm that will start seedling in 3-4 years.

Licuala mapu and Cham tuerck are tricky, rare and quite expensive. You should acquire more experience with more common palms before trying them. Last fall I jumped for 2 3-yr-old Cham tuercks which, so far, are surviving but I keep them outdoors under shade. But I must vigilantly inspect and treat them because they are spider mite magnets. As for Dypsis minuta - I would love to try it if I could find it. I can't even get seeds of D.m. to germinate.

[PalmatierMeg]

Sabal minor variegated.

OOOO. I would love to try one of those but haven't found any in the US.

[hydrophyte]

Thanks so much for the awesome information everybody. This is great!

[sarasota alex]

Lytocaryum weddellianum

[mjff]

Guihaia argyrata and or Guihaia grossefibrosa if you can find them. They stay small and like shade, so should do fine indoors. They grow in limestone karst in Vietnam, so make sure you plant them in a mix that isn't too acidic. I just sprouted some seeds of Guihaia argyrata. They did nothing until they were exposed to several weeks of cold followed by a warm up, so I think they need to be cold stratified to sprout reliably. You can buy seeds, stick them in the fridge for a few weeks, then soak them in water for a few days, and put them in ziplock bags with moist (not wet) coconut fiber substrate from the pet store.

[Dewayne in Ticolandia]

The smallest palm I know of is Chamaedorea minima. The attached photo is of a 13 year old palm, fully mature and producing inflorescences for several years. Does this species have

the smallest mature palms in this family?

[rprimbs]

As far as cold hardy, how about Rhapidophyllum hystrix. Of course it still wouldn't make it outside through the winter. It's hardy to about 0 degrees fahrenheit (-18 celcius). And zone 4a gets down to about -30 fahrenheit (-34 celcius). I don't know much about it. Does anybody know if it's easy to grow as a houseplant? I'd bet that it'd be a slow grower there.

[Erik]

I want to 2nd what Tom said about Trachycarpus "Wagnerianus" or "Waggie." I think it would be perfect for you. It looks good and grows small, but without looking funny--it is a natural bonsai. I grew one in a pot for years--outdoors Spring, Summer and Fall and indoors in winter. I finally planted it in 2010. I have electric pipe heating cable on its trunk and it is covered.

You could grow a "Waggie" in the ground in Wisconsin, but only in a heated insulated "palm hut"; several people in Wisconsin do that with Trachycarpus (check out the "palmsnorth" forum).

Needle palm would be a little easier outdoors, but even that would need special effort up there. (Heck, I cover mine on cold nights even down here.)

Edited January 21, 2011 by Erik

[hydrophyte]

Thanks again for these suggestions everybody. I am going to start a list and I can't wait to start looking for material.

I have a few more specific questions about palms for water culture and I think I will start a new thread for that.

[Xenon]

Here's a nice article on indoor palms...(Palms as House Plants)

Jonathan

[koch]

Palms are very interesting plants to grow and can pose great challenges to grow in our zone. In our palm house at Garfield Park Conservatory, we are growing ove 70 Genuses of palms and much more specieces. We will be happy to share seeds. But the fact is for a seed to germinate and get to a reasonable size for display can take a few years in zones 1 to 6 or 7 due to climatic pattern. Few Chamadorea species that we propagated from seeds a couple of years ago are now in a 6" por. Our Scheelea seeds are about in 8" pots. Fertiliser requirements are also a little bit unique. Besides Nitrogen, Pottasim and Magnesium play a very vital role in developement.Visit us.

[hydrophyte]

OK I am going to compile an annotated list here to start keeping track of these great suggestions.

• Licuala triphylla--wow! Where can I get this one? Will it grow OK in a terrarium?
  
• Sabal minor--PlantDelights.com apparently has a super dwarf variety (http://www.plantdelights.com/Sabal-minor-Blountstown...
  
• Licuala peltata v. sumawongii--this is a very handsome plant.
  
• Kerriodoxa elegans--this plant gets big.
  
• Licuala spinosa--this plant grows large, but might be nice selection for growing in ripariums. What are the leaves like on juvenile plants? Can I prune to control size for keeping in a fish tank?
  
• Brahea moorei--this is a handsome plant. Would it work for me as a houseplant?
  
• Dypsis minuta--this is a true miniature maybe it would do well in a terrarium(?). RarePalmSeeds.com apparently has seeds (http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/pix/Dyp.... Does anybody know about other availability?
  
• Dypsis utilis--this plant is probably too big for me.
  
• Hydriastele rheophytica--water associated in nature. Could I grow this one indoors in a riparium? Floribunda.com has sprouted seeds available.
  
• Chamadorea cataractarum--I want to find seeds for this one.
  
• Trachycarpus wagnerianus--wow this looks like a cool plant. Seems to be widely available.
  
• Licuala malajana--one source indicated that it grows in swamps. How difficult is this plant? Floribunda.com apparently has sprouted seeds available (http://www.floribundapalms.com/p...
  
• Guihaia argyrata--apparently difficult to grow.
  
• Dypsis lutescens "Vietnam dwarf"--this looks like a nice plant. Will it work as a houseplant?
  
• Rhapis laosensis --this looks like a nice plant.
  
• Chamaedorea adscendens--does this one work well as a houseplant?
  
• Rhapis "super dwarf"--wow! Where can I get one?
  
• Dypsis mcdonaldiana--I don't see much information on this one(??) ortanique.com currently has sprouted seeds (http://giaxis.com/seed_view_all...).
  
• Lytocaryum weddellianum--probably too large for me.
  
• Chamaedorea minima--synonym for C. pumilla(?).
  
• Rhapidophyllum hystrix--this is on my list for planting outdoors.
  

Edited January 22, 2011 by hydrophyte

[redant]

Chamaedorea metallica is fairly easy to find, stays small (house plant size) and may do well indoors.

Chamaedorea tuerckheimii, but you may never find one.

Chamaedorea ernesti-augustii, keep a spray bottle around for any of these.

Edited January 22, 2011 by redant

[DoomsDave]

OK I am going to compile an annotated list here to start keeping track of these great suggestions.

• Licuala triphylla--wow! Where can I get this one? Will it grow OK in a terrarium?
  Worth a shot!
  
  
• Sabal minor--PlantDelights.com apparently has a super dwarf variety (http://www.plantdelights.com/Sabal-minor-Blountstown...
  Also worth a shot. Will stay small a long while. I've got free seed if you want some, shoot me a PM, and I'll mail to you no charge. (Everyone else, too!)
  
  
• Licuala peltata v. sumawongii--this is a very handsome plant.
  Worth a shot, but needs humidity.
  
  
• Kerriodoxa elegans--this plant gets big.
  DOes get large with time, but we're talking decades. Try a couple! Plenty of humidity essential. I kill them here in Cali.
  
  
• Licuala spinosa--this plant grows large, but might be nice selection for growing in ripariums. What are the leaves like on juvenile plants? Can I prune to control size for keeping in a fish tank?
  I've got a couple babies, a bit one the yellow side, from a local guy's greenhouse. Eventually get large, but takes a long while. Probably will work in a big fish tank, terrarium.
  
  
• Brahea moorei--this is a handsome plant. Would it work for me as a houseplant?
  Stays small for years. Best in full sun. Will take dry, well worth a shot. The more light the better, full sun is best. Hold off on water in the winter and/or give a heat lamp and/or supplemental lighting.
  
  
• Dypsis minuta--this is a true miniature maybe it would do well in a terrarium(?). RarePalmSeeds.com apparently has seeds (http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/pix/Dyp.... Does anybody know about other availability?
  Good question! I'd try some, tell us!
  
  
• Dypsis utilis--this plant is probably too big for me.
  And a bit of a pain to grow, but if you can give it humidity worth a shot. Hates the cold.
  
  
• Hydriastele rheophytica--water associated in nature. Could I grow this one indoors in a riparium? Floribunda.com has sprouted seeds available.
  Don't know nothin' try some and see!
  
  
• Chamadorea cataractarum--I want to find seeds for this one.
  One of the very very best houseplants! Seeds? I'll bet someone here can arrange for plants to send, in the springtime when freeze danger has passed. Gets to about 4 feet tall, outside, but, probably will stay smaller for you inside. Lovely deep green, thirsty by nature, but limit water, also limit size, a show-stopper in your living room in low light. I've got a number in pots. I'll bet your local Home Depot, Lowes, Menard's etc., will have plants in the houseplant section you can take home today.
  
  
• Trachycarpus wagnerianus--wow this looks like a cool plant. Seems to be widely available.
  Cooler than Greenland, but eventually gets tall in the ground. Some people tell me it's a great bonsai that will stay small. Will freeze outdoors for you, but try some, definitely!
  
  
• Licuala malajana--one source indicated that it grows in swamps. How difficult is this plant? Floribunda.com apparently has sprouted seeds available (http://www.floribundapalms.com/p...
  gOOD QUESTION! Try some and see! Tell us!
  
  
• Guihaia argyrata--apparently difficult to grow.
  Not hard, just slow as Congress mired in Molasses in January in the Northern hemisphere overdosed on opium. Get some babies, if you can, and just be patient.
  
  
• Dypsis lutescens "Vietnam dwarf"--this looks like a nice plant. Will it work as a houseplant?
  D. lute isn't a a perfect houseplant, since it needs lots of light. BUT! If you can give if the right conditions (sunny window and/or gro-lamp) and enough humidity, worth a shot.
  
  
• Rhapis laosensis --this looks like a nice plant.
  It is! I've got a couple in the ground, small slow, worth a shot!
  
  
• Chamaedorea adscendens--does this one work well as a houseplant?
  I've never had one inside, but they will grow outside in the deep shade. Definitely worth a try!
  
  
• Rhapis "super dwarf"--wow! Where can I get one?
  Don't know where to get, but try one!
  
  
• Dypsis mcdonaldiana--I don't see much information on this one(??) ortanique.com currently has sprouted seeds
  (http://giaxis.com/seed_view_all...).
  This one is ADORABLE! Like "coitans, Mugsy!" ! Easy outside for me in the shade, definitely try some. Might need extra humidity indoors for you, but, if it grows, those red berries on dark dark green leaves and stems will make even the most jaded plant-folk drop their drawers and scream! Ahem.
  
  
• Lytocaryum weddellianum--probably too large for me.
  Well, eventually, after thirty years. A good palm bud of mine has a few that took 30 years to reach 6 feet outdoors. Tough, hardy, try some anyway. In thirty years, you might have a house with an atrium, or retire in Hawaii or Florida . . . .
  
  
• Chamaedorea minima--synonym for C. pumilla(?).
  Don't know, but I'd try some. As a group Chamadoreas are tough, unless someone else who's had trouble disagrees. I'm going to get some for my garden.
  
  
• Rhapidophyllum hystrix--this is on my list for planting outdoors.
  

This is probably the only species you can really grow outside, and I'd be prepared to protect them when the temps sink below -20 F, which I know they can. (In Ohio, the January before I moved to California, 1985, it hit 30 below! (WITHOUT wind-chill! Mommy! ) Doubts dispelled!

My Comments above.

Sounds like you're loaded for bear, with your clothes on! There are many many other choices, too, if you're willing to experiment.

For sure, try some Howea forsteriana, ("Kentias") they'll live for decades in a house, ditto for "sentry palm" (H. belmoriana). Rhopalistylus sapida will take low light, and live for decades inside, slow as Congress, etc, though will get big with time (leaves to 6' long) but, we're talking LOTS of time.

I'd also try many Chamadoreas: metallica, ernest-augustii, brachypoda, stolonifera, radicalis (tree or bush type), many many more. Many species are native to Mexico, where it can get dry sometimes. The hard-core rainforest species will be tough for you, including turkeheimii, but, when you get confident, try anyway.

Oh, yeah, keep us informed. This is only the beginning of the madness, and does not include cycads . . .

[hydrophyte]

Thanks so much for those detailed responses!

I wish that it were a couple months later in the year. Right now it is bitterly cold and not safe to ship plants or seed here. I have exactly one single palm here at this point (a C. elegans that my fiancée has had going for several years) but I think I have already seriously caught the palm-collecting bug while reading about all these fascinating plants. The winter will give me some more time to plan and find some growing space anyway.

To begin defining some goals I think that I will start investigating those very smallest selections along with the ones suitable for culture in water first, and then go from there.

So can anybody specifically describe how Licuala spinosa and Chamadorea cataractarum might look while still only 12-18" tall? Would they still just be a few simple grass-like blades, or would they start to have something like their adult leaf morphologies? I really want to try those in riparium fish tanks, but they will only be very desirable if exhibiting those nice leaf forms while still pretty small.

Edited January 23, 2011 by hydrophyte

[Brad-Tampa]

Does anyone grow Reinhardtia anymore? We had both R. simplex and R. gracilis at one time, beautiful small palms.

[_Rich]

Thanks so much for those detailed responses!

I wish that it were a couple months later in the year. Right now it is bitterly cold and not safe to ship plants or seed here. I have exactly one single palm here at this point (a C. elegans that my fiancée has had going for several years) but I think I have already seriously caught the palm-collecting bug while reading about all these fascinating plants. The winter will give me some more time to plan and find some growing space anyway.

To begin defining some goals I think that I will start investigating those very smallest selections along with the ones suitable for culture in water first, and then go from there.

So can anybody specifically describe how Licuala spinosa and Chamadorea cataractarum might look while still only 12-18" tall? Would they still just be a few simple grass-like blades, or would they start to have something like their adult leaf morphologies? I really want to try those in riparium fish tanks, but they will only be very desirable if exhibiting those nice leaf forms while still pretty small.

Hydro,

Give the Licuala spinosa a try in your riparium. The beauty of what makes this forum such an asset for us all - is that there is a strong possibility that no one has attempted to grow L. spinosa in a bonsai-sized culture via constant riparium moisture.

Make sure that when you give it a go - you provide as much documentation and photographic support as possible. Whether it be someone with an inordinate amount of knowledge/experience, someone pretty well-versed in our addiction....errr hobby, or newbies such as you or I - PalmTalk.org is a fantastic resource and its betterment is driven by each of our own preferences and inquisitive nature(s).

Best wishes in your endeavors - and as I'm sure most of us will echo - please keep us posted and show us the fruits of your labor!

Best Wishes,

Rich

[hydrophyte]

Thanks so much for the continued suggestions and the words of encouragement!

Look at this picture...

http://media.photobucket.com/image/licuala%20s...

It is sort of difficult to guess the scale there, but that L. spinosa looks like it might only be 24" tall or so. The oldest (smallest) leaves around the base had already started to grow with the adult leaf shape.

Here is a quick shot of the riparium planting that I had going in my 50G.

That layout had a Cyrtosperma johnstonii, a large-growing aquatic aroid, growing as a centerpiece plant. That plant can grow huge, but it worked well in there while still youngish.

[Trópico]

Hi, I have some info on Chamaedorea cataractum for you.

Here is a pic of a 7 month old I grew from seed in 9B central Florida.

And here is the same palm, 2 years old:

Of course, they are good performers indoors, but to get optimum growth, palms (some way more than others, and many exclusively) want to be outdoors feeling that tropical air or whatever resembles their habitat. You are going to be doing some serious germinating it appears. Seed germination is 50% of the fun of palm growing. Please look at the threads on germination because there is going to be a lot of trial and error, and the better prepared the more successful you'll be. Don't get discouraged to grow your favorite palms; start with the easier, more common ones, then move up accordingly. Don't let anyone tell you can't try a palm. Bobby would grow!

[hydrophyte]

Hey thanks for those observations on C. cataractarum. How tall do you think that 2-year old plant was?

I do look forward to working with seeds, but I am just starting out so I also hope to track down a few larger plants too.

[aussiearoids]

Cham cataractarum might be great for this , I know they have a massive root system so could be trouble if a plastic lined pond .

[AggiePalms]

I don't know if anybody mentioned it, but among the Chamaedorea species is an unusual species C. metallica --- very unique, metallic looking leaves (looks great in a shiny black pot), can be kept small, and can handle cool/dark/dry indoor conditions very well without a big mite problem. Great for those cold dark wintry days where you are; it will be happy inside while the rare but beautiful species are gasping.

Also, if you need any Sabal minor seeds, let me know. Just send me a message, I am trying to send off the last of mine this week. They grow like weeds here; yes they need protection where you are (everything does), nonetheless I think they would do nicely as a can't miss/beautiful palm, and among the most hardy easily grown species.

Good luck! Don't start out overspending, inexpensive palms are just as great...just not rare. And yes you will lose some, but you will learn and get better. I have, you can too!

[hydrophyte]

I would like to get some C. metallica I think that is a great looking plant. They had some at the garden center we visited yesterday, but they were big and seventy bucks each. I'd like to start out with some smaller ones.

Hey I might like to get some of those S. minor seeds. That might also be a good one for planted ripariums. How long would it take little S. minor plants to grow 12" or so tall?

[hydrophyte]

Cham cataractarum might be great for this , I know they have a massive root system so could be trouble if a plastic lined pond .

Yeah that would follow since it is a riaparian species. Plants like that are often deeply-rooted because they need to be able to hold on to avoid uprooting during floods. I hope that I can find some seeds or small plants of C. cataractarum.

[hydrophyte]

Thanks again so much everybody for such a warm welcome!

I have been working on narrowing down that list and finding sources. I'd love to hear any other ideas for small-growing palms and selections that might do well planted in wet situations.

[hydrophyte]

Here's one to add to my list quick...

• Asterogyne martiana
  

This is a real handsome plant. It is available from a couple of different suppliers. I wonder how it would do as a houseplant(?).

[hydrophyte]

This is like a bump for this thread.

I'd love to hear any other plant suggestions that might come to mind.

I like reading scientific papers and semi-scientific magazine articles. Does anybody know of any links to any free online pdfs about the botany and cultivation of palms?

[Sutter Bob]

I've been growing Dypsis lutescens in water (no soil) in a glass vase indoors for over two years - they're doing fine.

I've thought of trying the same thing for cyrtostachys sometime.

[hydrophyte]

Thanks for that tip Sutter Bob.

Wow I have another new one that I definitely want to add to my list...

• Arenga hookeriana
  

I wonder if I could hope to grow that one as a houseplant(?).

[hydrophyte]

Here's another one to drool over...

Geonoma epetiolata

...just wanted to jot that down while I had the name in mind.

Edited February 6, 2011 by hydrophyte

[hydrophyte]

So does anybody know anything about these variegated Rhapis excelsa?

I was reading around a little and suddenly I'm fascinated.

I remember that Asiatica.com had a bunch of them, but they went out of business.

Are there any other US sources? There is that joint in Texas with the nice Website, but they don't ship.