Is there a harder place to dig than in South Florida?!

[Mandrew968]

South Florida ground is so hard! Some places I have about 18 inches of topsoil, till I hit coral. In my swail, I started digging and hit solid rock at 3 inches! I have two and a half feet to go, but I'm not looking forward to it. My pick axe is not big enough--I am going to have to borrow my father's as well as his Johnson bar. I estimate that with help, I'll be close to done in about an hour and a half. Anyone have a worse digging story than that? At my place in tallahassee, I can dig to china, with just a shovel!

[mnorell]

18 inches! How wonderful. Down here at our place on Big Pine it ranges from perhaps six inches at most (under the pines and other plants that are hammock-making) to openly exposed cap-rock at the surface. Our solution has been to truck numerous loads of soil down from the mainland. $$$$$. I don't want to spend my life on a jackhammer. Nor an hour with a pick-axe to plant a one-gallon plant. There are a few places where the substrate is a bit chalky and I've been able to break it up with a crowbar/pick but mostly I dig down to cap-rock, and if I can't break it up manually, I just set the plant on it, and mound around it with a mix of whatever calcareous rock I have around, and soil. I use a mix of what they call "50-50" which on its own behaves sort of like concrete(!) with lots of seashells in it, and "nursery-grade" which is very rich, dark and flaky and a bit peaty. The resulting mix provides a relatively heavy substrate that gives the plants a better chance of holding their own as opposed to a lighter mix in which they would just blow over.

Due to the nature of our limestone substrate, we have a freshwater lens here in the lower keys and you hit water a few feet down. What's fascinating to me is that the natives, which grow so lushly and abundantly, are able to find the small holes and cracks in the limestone and make their way down to anchor themselves and find fresh water. After a rain you can watch the air-bubbles as the water percolates down through the oolitic limestone into the aquifer.

What I can't believe is the staggering amount of plant material that I see thrown into trash-cans for pick-up here after a trimming session. If people would hold on to those clippings and even do the most elementary form of composting, they would have some of that rich black soil they all complain they can't find. Considering our elevation here is 4-5 feet, I can hardly believe anyone would be exporting potential landmass!

[Darkman]

Considering our elevation here is 4-5 feet, I can hardly believe anyone would be exporting potential landmass!

When was the last time a storm surge inundated you? How do the palms you planted hang on?

[Mandrew968]

Michael, great post! I want you to know that no organic material ever makes it out of my yard, not even leftover food! It all gets recycled back into my yard. How do your palms do, sitting on top of rock? I planted a teddybear just above some nasty coral, I chipped away at for a whole day! I put in some fertilizer and good soil below it and placed it on top, but am still worried the roots will be hampered. this hole i'm digging now is for a big satakentia(Ken Johnson puts the "ken" in SateKENtia!). I want to get down about two feet and then build up the rest of the rootball above ground(that should work, since my swail is a low spot). I am just worried once I put her in the ground, she wont be able to penetrate any deeper.

[Dypsisdean]

Try lava.

[Patrick]

Try lava.

We need an emoticon of a little stick guy with a pickax.

[Kim]

Right, lava.... here is a visual for that (sorry, no emoticon!):

But the results are good.

[paulgila]

waaaa,so sad that people that live in hawaii have a hard time digging a hole!

[Kim]

I can see why you are so sad, pohonky. Thirteen months later...

[paulgila]

please dont ever call me that again.

[Kim]

please dont ever call me that again.

Sorry, I forgot that is MattyB's personal pet name for you. From now on it's Mr. Denton. Sir.

[paulgila]

thsnk you.

[Walter John]

That was such a cruel HPS Kim.

(Hawaiian Photo Slap)

[Dr. George]

Try lava.

As Dean says - try lava:

gmp

[ariscott]

Try laterite/coffee rock. We searched high & low to find a property without them... They are EVERYWHERE here. And I think we found it.... we haven't found any on our property yet (touch wood)

Regards, Ari

[Scott Cohen]

We bribe a construction crew down the street (they have nothing else to do these days ). There Cat digs a 4x4 hole through coral in under a minute

[Eric in Orlando]

After digging in the coral rock in SoFL and in clay with big chunks of granite in Virginia and hard dry clay in Oklahoma and southeastern Arizona I never complain about the sandy soil we have here. It may dry out quick and not hold nutrients but you can dig very easily.

[Xerarch]

Wow, and when I saw the topic I was prepared to get on here and complain about our very hard caliche here. Looks like it could be worse.

[MattyB]

Here's one of the more difficult areas I've tried to plant in. Top soil was no more than 6" deep. Chunky rock could be jackhammered out another 12" deep until I hit blue granite where the jackhammer cannot break. They have to dynamite around here to build houses. I have some exposed rock as well and 18" is about the deepest I've gone before hitting inpenetrable rock. Usually it's about 12" of top soil and then rock.

The only way to do it is to eat lots of El Pollo Loco and drink lots of diet soda. Booooyaaaaaaaaahhhh

[Ken Johnson]

Andrew. looks like I better bring my hydrolic hammer on my tractor over there and do ya a few for the future?

[sonoranfans]

Andrew. looks like I better bring my hydrolic hammer on my tractor over there and do ya a few for the future?

Yeah, Kens place has a few inches of topsoil then rock. A pick axe would be worthless there. He must do a great job with that hydraulic hammer because his palms are incredible!

[palmman97]

try key west all limestone and coral rock no top soil.

[bgl]

About some of the earlier comments about digging here on the Big Island and hitting lava. There are actually a number of different types of lava. Some (the red type) is fairly porous and is "diggable". Well, maybe not quite "diggable", but with a pick it's possible to make a decent hole to plant in. Now, when you hit bluerock, that's a whole different scenario. We are on top of bluerock here in Leilani Estatates. It's closer to the surface in certain area. Sometimes only a few inches of topsoil. People who come here from the mainland often ask me "what should I do when I hit bluerock" and my answer is always the same "give up"! Yeah, if you have a jackhammer, you can make some progress, but why go to all that trouble unless it's VERY important to plant in a very certain spot? There are so many ups and downs in the terrain here that it's always possible to find a low spot. Put the palm there, sometimes even without ANY digging, and then simply backfill with cindersoil. Works great. Should add that up on the Hamakua coast, north of Hilo, the situation is very different. They have deep soil up there, and digging is not an issue. Not so in the Puna district (south of Hilo).

[mjff]

waaaa,so sad that people that live in hawaii have a hard time digging a hole!

Yes, very sad. I rarely even try to dig a hole here with a shovel and/or pickax anymore. I just call my septic system contractor to bring his backhoe, and then sometimes he has to attach a jackhammer to it to get deep enough to plant a 100 gallon container or 36" box. Then within a couple of years we get a nasty cold front that defoliates everything.

[Jeff Searle]

South Florida ground is so hard! Some places I have about 18 inches of topsoil, till I hit coral. In my swail, I started digging and hit solid rock at 3 inches! I have two and a half feet to go, but I'm not looking forward to it. My pick axe is not big enough--I am going to have to borrow my father's as well as his Johnson bar. I estimate that with help, I'll be close to done in about an hour and a half. Anyone have a worse digging story than that? At my place in tallahassee, I can dig to china, with just a shovel!

Ahh, that's tooo bad, and you probably paid some insanely high, over price for your property. My 2 1/2 acres my house is on has 3' of good rich black soil, very easy to dig in. Actually, you don't find any rock. I would take Ken up on his offer though. So, no complaints on my end.

Jeff

[BS Man about Palms]

please dont ever call me that again.

How about POHO Boy?

[paulgila]

how about knock it off.

[BS Man about Palms]

I sowwy mr. D.

[paulgila]

me too.lets hug!

[_Keith]

Really, it's like you people don't know what dynamite is. Fishing or planting, it is just as effective and really easy. Light and run. Come back and fill up the hole with some good stuff. I mean, how difficult is that.

[Tyrone]

For me sand sand sand, but go out to the coast it's sand and then limestone limestone limestone, which sounds much like Florida and the Keys. Real painful stuff and makes planting take 3 or 4 times longer than it should. Mega pH problem too.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Geoff]

Or... instead of trying to dig on lava, truck in 4' of lava 'scoria' and create a new substrate on your property, like Pauleen Sullivan did. Digging in that stuff is easy... and moving palms back out of it to somewhere else is easy too... as long as you have a crane or something like that handy.

[palmsOrl]

Not that I was attempting to grow palms in-ground during the time, but when I lived in Northern Virginia, the "soil" was all heavy clay and mixed in stones. Manage to dig a hole and you were left with a big bowl that would fill with water and the water would just sit there. We ended up having to do a ton of soil amending to plant anything. The soil here is a piece of cake in comparison.

-Michael

[Dr. George]

Or... instead of trying to dig on lava, truck in 4' of lava 'scoria' and create a new substrate on your property, like Pauleen Sullivan did. Digging in that stuff is easy... and moving palms back out of it to somewhere else is easy too... as long as you have a crane or something like that handy.

Is that hauling in cinder soil (cinder+organic+top soil) and laying it 4 ft deep?

On the Kona side, a 22 cu yd (198 cu ft) load of cinder soil delivered costs about $1,000.

A single load applied to a depth of 4 ft would cover 49.5 sq ft. Which means one would need 880 loads ($880,000) to cover an acre (43,560 sq ft) of land to a depth of 4 ft.

gmp

[Dypsisdean]

Or... instead of trying to dig on lava, truck in 4' of lava 'scoria' and create a new substrate on your property, like Pauleen Sullivan did. Digging in that stuff is easy... and moving palms back out of it to somewhere else is easy too... as long as you have a crane or something like that handy.

Is that hauling in cinder soil (cinder+organic+top soil) and laying it 4 ft deep?

On the Kona side, a 22 cu yd (198 cu ft) load of cinder soil delivered costs about $1,000.

A single load applied to a depth of 4 ft would cover 49.5 sq ft. Which means one would need 880 loads ($880,000) to cover an acre (43,560 sq ft) of land to a depth of 4 ft.

gmp

George,

I think that was mostly cinder. Not like the cinder soil we get here with mac nut grindings, Hamakua soil, etc. mixed in. The last load of cinder I got was from the Kapoho/Puna area where Pauline's is. Still not cheap. But it would be a lot cheaper on that side of the island. And at one time I hear they were hauling cinder from very close to Pauline's. But still, she covered more than an acre to that depth.

The only problem is that it appeared to me, after the last visit I had there, that it is also expensive to keep nutrients in a medium like that. With no organics, and with water easily draining through, one must be diligent with a fertilization regimen. So with any neglect, things turn yellow very quickly. Plus her area receives much less rainfall than up the slope a bit. I would think that dries very quickly in the heat at sea level.

Here's a slideshow of the last visit I took there. It was rather depressing how yellow things looked. The Sullivan Garden

[Dr. George]

Or... instead of trying to dig on lava, truck in 4' of lava 'scoria' and create a new substrate on your property, like Pauleen Sullivan did. Digging in that stuff is easy... and moving palms back out of it to somewhere else is easy too... as long as you have a crane or something like that handy.

Is that hauling in cinder soil (cinder+organic+top soil) and laying it 4 ft deep?

On the Kona side, a 22 cu yd (198 cu ft) load of cinder soil delivered costs about $1,000.

A single load applied to a depth of 4 ft would cover 49.5 sq ft. Which means one would need 880 loads ($880,000) to cover an acre (43,560 sq ft) of land to a depth of 4 ft.

gmp

George,

I think that was mostly cinder. Not like the cinder soil we get here with mac nut grindings, Hamakua soil, etc. mixed in. The last load of cinder I got was from the Kapoho/Puna area where Pauline's is. Still not cheap. But it would be a lot cheaper on that side of the island. And at one time I hear they were hauling cinder from very close to Pauline's. But still, she covered more than an acre to that depth.

The only problem is that it appeared to me, after the last visit I had there, that it is also expensive to keep nutrients in a medium like that. With no organics, and with water easily draining through, one must be diligent with a fertilization regimen. So with any neglect, things turn yellow very quickly. Plus her area receives much less rainfall than up the slope a bit. I would think that dries very quickly in the heat at sea level.

Here's a slideshow of the last visit I took there. It was rather depressing how yellow things looked. The Sullivan Garden

Hey Dean

Thanks for the link to your last visit to Pauline's. I did a drive by Fall 09 and had a similar impression.

Straight cinder from Ocean View (10 miles south of us) costs us about $450 for 22 cu yards. Lot cheaper than cinder soil, but you are right, without the organics it is hard to keep nutrients around. And yep, still not cheap; even at half the materials cost, covering an acre to a depth of 4 ft is a very expensive proposition. (I think I'll pay the guys to help me dig the holes instead).

gmp

[Mandrew968]

South Florida ground is so hard! Some places I have about 18 inches of topsoil, till I hit coral. In my swail, I started digging and hit solid rock at 3 inches! I have two and a half feet to go, but I'm not looking forward to it. My pick axe is not big enough--I am going to have to borrow my father's as well as his Johnson bar. I estimate that with help, I'll be close to done in about an hour and a half. Anyone have a worse digging story than that? At my place in tallahassee, I can dig to china, with just a shovel!

Ahh, that's tooo bad, and you probably paid some insanely high, over price for your property. My 2 1/2 acres my house is on has 3' of good rich black soil, very easy to dig in. Actually, you don't find any rock. I would take Ken up on his offer though. So, no complaints on my end.

Jeff

It remains to be seen whether our recent home investment will pay off; thought we did well at the time. Currently, I have not been paying attention to the market, since I don't plan on moving anytime soon. I do know we're very close to both sets of grandparents and that's priceless! I hope for everyone's sake the housing market picks back up; it's not just homes that it affects.

[amazondk]

I guess that paradise always has some items to keep things from being too easy. Around here there is not a problem with rocks. But, hard clay laterite soils can be a real drag to dig holes in. My place has a lot of sand which I really can not complain about.

Dean, thanks for the garden link, I had not seen that one.

dk

[JasonD]

To make up for our 250 days of windy drizzle, we have sand to plant in, which means just add organics to enhance water retention and fertility. (We now have a chicken coop.) It's amazing how strangely the moisture behaves in the soil during the dry season, though. I can run the hose into a hole for an hour and still find it's penetrated but an inch into the sand. I can't figure out where the water goes! Even after the first several rainstorms in the fall the sand remains dry an inch down.

[paulgila]

if its not going down it must be moving laterally.