Palm Adaptations

[malcthomas]

It is still raining here and I'm house bound.

This new thread is a continuation of the Purple Rhopalostylis baueri one, which I found to be thought provoking as well as entertaining.

I mentioned some anecdotal observations in that thread, one being the timing of Nikau leaf abscission with flowering. I have noted that R.baueri in particular with their more open crown, have a tendency for their leaves to be held up in adjoining vegetation or interlocking with other palm fronds. When this happens, the leaf does not fall away and the flower spathe stays enclosed in the leaf sheath and in turn, flowers which cannot be pollinated, remain in the unopened prophyll to die off.

On the other hand R.sapida with their more erect stature don't appear to have this problem of leaves being caught up.

Has sapida adapted this more upright crown to survive in compact colonies and native bush?

A few years ago I mentioned that I had just discovered that Washingtonia and Livistona a. grew out of their petiole armature when they reached a certain height, that height corresponding to the reach of some prehistoric herbivore.

Any thoughts on these two theories...or should I just put my raincoat on and go out and do some weeding.

cheers...

Malcolm

[Tropicgardener]

Another palm of interest here is Licuala ramsayi. The north Queensland form tends to be reasonably well armed on the petioles and has a limited fruiting period but the tuckeri form from Cape York has very little if any spines and fruits year round. It is also faster growing than the north Queensland form.

Maybe because the Cape York form is faster growing, flowers and fruits more readily there is less need for armature ?? Or was it at lesser risk of being attacked by because of its geographic location.

Enjoy your weeding Malcolm !!!

Edited March 23, 2011 by Tropicgardener

[richnorm]

Has sapida adapted this more upright crown to survive in compact colonies and native bush?

As you know, sapida's compact, upright, habit is much more pronounced in open situations, and in any case flowering is limited in shady crowded conditions.

cheers

Richard

[malcthomas]

Has sapida adapted this more upright crown to survive in compact colonies and native bush?

As you know, sapida's compact, upright, habit is much more pronounced in open situations, and in any case flowering is limited in shady crowded conditions.

cheers

Richard

[malcthomas]

Richard...

All the Nikau (uncultivated) that I have seen out in the open are clearly relics or remnants from the early days of bush clearing. The photos on your website are good examples of this. Any cultivated plant that you are referring to has had hundreds of thousands of years of genetic conditioning to outgrow and I doubt that this could be achieved in less than a century.

Go into any shady bush area where Nikau are growing, which is not being grazed by stock, and you will see mats of seedlings growing beneath the parent tree. Flowering is definitely not limited by shade. Someone might say that trees in more open areas have better germination rates for nursery people but one wouldn't know how many seeds or what the germination percentages were to produce these grass like seedling mats. Maybe that is why they produce hundreds/thousands of seed each year.

cheers...

Malcolm

[malcthomas]

Another palm of interest here is Licuala ramsayi. The north Queensland form tends to be reasonably well armed on the petioles and has a limited fruiting period but the tuckeri form from Cape York has very little if any spines and fruits year round. It is also faster growing than the north Queensland form.

Maybe because the Cape York form is faster growing, flowers and fruits more readily there is less need for armature ?? Or was it at lesser risk of being attacked by because of its geographic location.

Enjoy your weeding Malcolm !!!

Andrew,

I was up your way last November and did think of you each time I saw a train. Are you still driving them? Got to see the Licuala closeup in the Daintree and did not realise that they were armed up until then. Drove through the Licula to Mission Beach...I 'spose these are pretty much decimated after the cyclone?

My brother has Highland cattle whose staple diet these days are palm leaves. It seems the more armature on the petioles the sweeter the leaves. In order of preference are, Livistona australis, Washingtonia r. and Brahea edulis.

kind regards..

Malcolm

[Bennz]

Has sapida adapted this more upright crown to survive in compact colonies and native bush?

I've never been to habitat of either baueri form, but from pictures I've seen and reports from friends who have been there it seems unlikley the NZ mainland forest is any denser than the original island forests. If there is any question of adaptation, could it be too wind? A more open crown is perhaps less of a 'sail' than the denser mainland look? This could explain the more open-crown on nikaus under the canopy, as well as the better leaflet resistance to wind on the baueri/cheesemanii.

[Kumar]

Has sapida adapted this more upright crown to survive in compact colonies and native bush?

I've never been to habitat of either baueri form, but from pictures I've seen and reports from friends who have been there it seems unlikley the NZ mainland forest is any denser than the original island forests. If there is any question of adaptation, could it be too wind? A more open crown is perhaps less of a 'sail' than the denser mainland look? This could explain the more open-crown on nikaus under the canopy, as well as the better leaflet resistance to wind on the baueri/cheesemanii.

I thought a more open crown was a better adaptation to strong winds ?

This is an extremely interesting discussion. Nothing like tracing evolutionary adaptations!

[Tropicgardener]

Another palm of interest here is Licuala ramsayi. The north Queensland form tends to be reasonably well armed on the petioles and has a limited fruiting period but the tuckeri form from Cape York has very little if any spines and fruits year round. It is also faster growing than the north Queensland form.

Maybe because the Cape York form is faster growing, flowers and fruits more readily there is less need for armature ?? Or was it at lesser risk of being attacked by because of its geographic location.

Enjoy your weeding Malcolm !!!

Andrew,

I was up your way last November and did think of you each time I saw a train. Are you still driving them? Got to see the Licuala closeup in the Daintree and did not realise that they were armed up until then. Drove through the Licula to Mission Beach...I 'spose these are pretty much decimated after the cyclone?

My brother has Highland cattle whose staple diet these days are palm leaves. It seems the more armature on the petioles the sweeter the leaves. In order of preference are, Livistona australis, Washingtonia r. and Brahea edulis.

kind regards..

Malcolm

Hi Malcolm, yeah I am still pushing trains around the countryside but I managed to escape the outback and returned to the coast. I drive the big 11000 tonne central Queensland coal trains out of Gladstone these days. If you are ever coming my way please let me know.

The Licualas around Mission Beach have been well and truly smashed and will take a long time to recover. Interesting facts about what palm leaves cattle like.

[malcthomas]

Has sapida adapted this more upright crown to survive in compact colonies and native bush?

I've never been to habitat of either baueri form, but from pictures I've seen and reports from friends who have been there it seems unlikley the NZ mainland forest is any denser than the original island forests. If there is any question of adaptation, could it be too wind? A more open crown is perhaps less of a 'sail' than the denser mainland look? This could explain the more open-crown on nikaus under the canopy, as well as the better leaflet resistance to wind on the baueri/cheesemanii.

Ben...

Check these photos...They are pretty typical of remnant Nikau growing in exposed locations and are from both sides of the Nth Island. The crowns are still reasonably open but their leaves are considerably shorter than their sheltered cousins, which is probably an adaption for the wind.

Can you elaborate a bit more on why baueri may have a more open crown than sapida and the significance of broader leaflets. My reading of your post is that Raoul Island is more windier than the mainland, but as windy as in canopy covered NZ bush, which I know you don't mean?

Kumar...

Here is another one that I find interesting but the Aussies haven't replied to. Nikau seed is a major diet of our native wood pigeon which is quite a large and heavy bird. The pigeons feed from the tree and not from fallen seed and a heavily seed laden Nikau infructescence can support the weight of at least two birds. (probably more if they could fit on it).

I have seen pigeons trying to feed on green Archontopheonix a. seed but as soon as a single bird tries to land on the infructescence it breaks off at the trunk and falls to the ground. The Nikau has evolved to take the extra weight of the pigeon but the exotic bangalow has not. I assume from this that in habitat bangalow seed is not on the menu of birds the size of our wood pigeon.

cheers...

Malcolm

[Bennz]

Can you elaborate a bit more on why baueri may have a more open crown than sapida and the significance of broader leaflets. My reading of your post is that Raoul Island is more windier than the mainland, but as windy as in canopy covered NZ bush, which I know you don't mean?

Hi Malcolm,

My apologies for such a badly written post!

What I was attempting to say is that Raoul nikau seem to be much more commonly canopy emergent than the mainland nikau. It seems to me from my observation that when mainland nikau are emergent is often in moist environments such as gullies etc, where there is some natural wind shelter effect. Yes there are many exceptions, but this seems to be generally the case. Raoul Island nikau seems to be often fully emergent above the surrounding canopy, from pictures my friend took there. I'm speculating that open crown allows more wind to go through before damage occurs. And as we know there are a lot of tropical cyclones through there. Stronger leaflets would be essential in windy climates, but why broader... I don't know? Island gigantism?

[malcthomas]

Can you elaborate a bit more on why baueri may have a more open crown than sapida and the significance of broader leaflets. My reading of your post is that Raoul Island is more windier than the mainland, but as windy as in canopy covered NZ bush, which I know you don't mean?

Hi Malcolm,

My apologies for such a badly written post!

What I was attempting to say is that Raoul nikau seem to be much more commonly canopy emergent than the mainland nikau. It seems to me from my observation that when mainland nikau are emergent is often in moist environments such as gullies etc, where there is some natural wind shelter effect. Yes there are many exceptions, but this seems to be generally the case. Raoul Island nikau seems to be often fully emergent above the surrounding canopy, from pictures my friend took there. I'm speculating that open crown allows more wind to go through before damage occurs. And as we know there are a lot of tropical cyclones through there. Stronger leaflets would be essential in windy climates, but why broader... I don't know? Island gigantism?

Ben...

Thanks...that certainly makes sense...But I 'spose you could reverse that by saying, "when they get above the canopy why don't they reduce their leaf length like sapida." Some botanist will do a Neofolis on this, and proffer some very simple explanation in 6 months time.

Seems like you are a bit house bound at the moment too.

Cheers...

Malcolm

[malcthomas]

Another palm of interest here is Licuala ramsayi. The north Queensland form tends to be reasonably well armed on the petioles and has a limited fruiting period but the tuckeri form from Cape York has very little if any spines and fruits year round. It is also faster growing than the north Queensland form.

Maybe because the Cape York form is faster growing, flowers and fruits more readily there is less need for armature ?? Or was it at lesser risk of being attacked by because of its geographic location.

Enjoy your weeding Malcolm !!!

Andrew,

I was up your way last November and did think of you each time I saw a train. Are you still driving them? Got to see the Licuala closeup in the Daintree and did not realise that they were armed up until then. Drove through the Licula to Mission Beach...I 'spose these are pretty much decimated after the cyclone?

My brother has Highland cattle whose staple diet these days are palm leaves. It seems the more armature on the petioles the sweeter the leaves. In order of preference are, Livistona australis, Washingtonia r. and Brahea edulis.

kind regards..

Malcolm

Hi Malcolm, yeah I am still pushing trains around the countryside but I managed to escape the outback and returned to the coast. I drive the big 11000 tonne central Queensland coal trains out of Gladstone these days. If you are ever coming my way please let me know.

The Licualas around Mission Beach have been well and truly smashed and will take a long time to recover. Interesting facts about what palm leaves cattle like.

Andrew

It was a very quick trip. Drove the daughter in law's vehicle from Brisbane over to Port Hedland for her. Only people we managed to catch up on were Ari and Scot in Darwin which was a great meeting. Pretty palmed out by the time we got to WA.

Tried to count the carriages behind those moving trains but gave up. What's a typical number that you haul?

Intend to get back up to northern Queensland at some stage so will take you up on your offer..

kind regards..

Malcolm

[richnorm]

Richard...

All the Nikau (uncultivated) that I have seen out in the open are clearly relics or remnants from the early days of bush clearing. The photos on your website are good examples of this. Any cultivated plant that you are referring to has had hundreds of thousands of years of genetic conditioning to outgrow and I doubt that this could be achieved in less than a century.

Go into any shady bush area where Nikau are growing, which is not being grazed by stock, and you will see mats of seedlings growing beneath the parent tree. Flowering is definitely not limited by shade. Someone might say that trees in more open areas have better germination rates for nursery people but one wouldn't know how many seeds or what the germination percentages were to produce these grass like seedling mats. Maybe that is why they produce hundreds/thousands of seed each year.

cheers...

Malcolm

Malcolm,

I have about 5 acres or so of native bush in the Waitakeres with hundreds of Nikau. It seems to me that flowering and fruiting is limited by lack of direct sun though I haven't made a scientific study. The nice droopy forms with long petioles in full shade that I would like to collect from never flower even with several metres of trunk. In the sun they can flower with almost no trunk. Maybe Waitakere Nikau are somewhat different to the East Cape form.

cheers

R

[malcthomas]

Richard...

All the Nikau (uncultivated) that I have seen out in the open are clearly relics or remnants from the early days of bush clearing. The photos on your website are good examples of this. Any cultivated plant that you are referring to has had hundreds of thousands of years of genetic conditioning to outgrow and I doubt that this could be achieved in less than a century.

Go into any shady bush area where Nikau are growing, which is not being grazed by stock, and you will see mats of seedlings growing beneath the parent tree. Flowering is definitely not limited by shade. Someone might say that trees in more open areas have better germination rates for nursery people but one wouldn't know how many seeds or what the germination percentages were to produce these grass like seedling mats. Maybe that is why they produce hundreds/thousands of seed each year.

cheers...

Malcolm

Malcolm,

I have about 5 acres or so of native bush in the Waitakeres with hundreds of Nikau. It seems to me that flowering and fruiting is limited by lack of direct sun though I haven't made a scientific study. The nice droopy forms with long petioles in full shade that I would like to collect from never flower even with several metres of trunk. In the sun they can flower with almost no trunk. Maybe Waitakere Nikau are somewhat different to the East Cape form.

cheers

R

Richard,,,kia ora

Nothing can beat personal observations but I guess this must now come down to how much actual light there is in full shade.

Eg. If a Nikau was growing in the full shade of a tree, would it receive the same amount of light as a Nikau growing in the shade of a tree which in turn was growing under the canopy of larger trees growing in the shade of a large hill?

From memory I would have thought the creek area below Gary C's place would not see much sun. How does this area of yours compare with that?

I am collecting seed at the moment from a Chattham that is in full shade and I have baueri seeding in full shade as well.

Out of your hundreds of Waitakere Nikau, would you be able to estimate what percentage of them produce white flowers. (and don't tell me that they don't flower because they are in shade....just joking)

regards

Malcolm

[richnorm]

White flowers are rare on sapida-possibly less than 1%. Gary's canopy is much lower than mine but it's getting pretty dark in there these days.

cheers

R

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Another palm of interest here is Licuala ramsayi. The north Queensland form tends to be reasonably well armed on the petioles and has a limited fruiting period but the tuckeri form from Cape York has very little if any spines and fruits year round. It is also faster growing than the north Queensland form.

Maybe because the Cape York form is faster growing, flowers and fruits more readily there is less need for armature ?? Or was it at lesser risk of being attacked by because of its geographic location.

Enjoy your weeding Malcolm !!!

it's just its growing conditions Imo,there just ramsayi at the end of the day

there is a spineless var, but it's pretty rare to come across, seed form the mature ones are

not always spineless.

Regards Mikey

Edited March 24, 2011 by calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

[Gary]

at my place the nikau in more open situation that get sun produce more seed that reaches maturity.Down toward the creek end which sees very little sun to none but still quite a bit of light the bunches of seed are usually smaller and many dont make it to the ripening stage as rats and opposum eat them while still green and a number also get knocked off from falling tree branches and other things.I think weather conditions at the time of flowering governs the size of seed crop.I know this as I collect seed every year and some years amounts on trees are low.The drooping leaf type Rich. mentioned never seem to produce seed but have seen some with small inflorence that come to nothing .White flower I have seen on sapida have not been the bleached looking white of baueri but instead oatmeal /white look.Baueri flower/seeding pattern is more affected by the weather in Auckland.Baueri also seem affected by age with setting viable seed with those with trunk from .5m-3m been the best producers ,then from 3-5m seeds getting less but still good germinators.Anything over 5m trunk round Auckland I have collected in past have had low germination and now wouldnt bother using that seed

[ariscott]

Andrew

It was a very quick trip. Drove the daughter in law's vehicle from Brisbane over to Port Hedland for her. Only people we managed to catch up on were Ari and Scot in Darwin which was a great meeting. Pretty palmed out by the time we got to WA.

Tried to count the carriages behind those moving trains but gave up. What's a typical number that you haul?

Intend to get back up to northern Queensland at some stage so will take you up on your offer..

kind regards..

Malcolm

It was very quick.... only time for a drink & a walk around the garden. I still can't believe Scott didn't offer beer . It is so un-Australian of him.... BTW, stay longer next time..... plenty more to see....

Regards, Ari

[Tropicgardener]

Another palm of interest here is Licuala ramsayi. The north Queensland form tends to be reasonably well armed on the petioles and has a limited fruiting period but the tuckeri form from Cape York has very little if any spines and fruits year round. It is also faster growing than the north Queensland form.

Maybe because the Cape York form is faster growing, flowers and fruits more readily there is less need for armature ?? Or was it at lesser risk of being attacked by because of its geographic location.

Enjoy your weeding Malcolm !!!

it's just its growing conditions Imo,there just ramsayi at the end of the day

there is a spineless var, but it's pretty rare to come across, seed form the mature ones are

not always spineless.

Regards Mikey

Mikey,

The Queensland coastal form of ramsayi is definately different to the Cape York (Tuckeri) form. I have grown both together and they grow at different rates plus the Cape York form is still minus its petiole spines in cultivation. Will be interesting once the Cape York form I have trunks as the ones from the Cape are more slender than the coastal form. I spent some time at Bamaga when I was a police officer and even found what appeared to be clumping specimens among them.

Malcolm,

The trains I drive generally have 98 to 100 wagons with 4 to 5 diesel or electric locomotives and are about 1.7km long.

[malcthomas]

White flowers are rare on sapida-possibly less than 1%. Gary's canopy is much lower than mine but it's getting pretty dark in there these days.

cheers

R

Rich...

"White flowers are rare on sapida-possibly less than 1%." Is that a general statement or are you referring to your Nikau?

Have you noticed whether these trees consistently produce white flowers?

My first knowledge that I had a R.baueri flowering, was when I went to investigate a fragrant flower smell in the garden. To my initial delight it was from a baueri flowering at ground level. As a kid I was told that white flowers attracted bees by their scent and others by their bright colour, such as mauve in the case of sapida. (I know there are probably hundreds of contrary exceptions as far as coloured flowers go)

Would you be aware whether these white sapida are fragrant? Just wondering because of the infrequency of white flowered sapida, (I have never seen one) whether it is just albinism. (http://www.nps.gov/archive/mora/notes/vol13-2d.htm)

Found yet another on yesterday

kind regards....M

[malcthomas]

Andrew

It was a very quick trip. Drove the daughter in law's vehicle from Brisbane over to Port Hedland for her. Only people we managed to catch up on were Ari and Scot in Darwin which was a great meeting. Pretty palmed out by the time we got to WA.

Tried to count the carriages behind those moving trains but gave up. What's a typical number that you haul?

Intend to get back up to northern Queensland at some stage so will take you up on your offer..

kind regards..

Malcolm

It was very quick.... only time for a drink & a walk around the garden. I still can't believe Scott didn't offer beer . It is so un-Australian of him.... BTW, stay longer next time..... plenty more to see....

Regards, Ari

Ari

"I still can't believe Scott didn't offer beer"...showing his kiwi parentage...

cheers...M

[richnorm]

Hi Malcolm,

I certainly haven't made an inventory of white versus the various shades of purple. It's just that I occasionally notice a white one on my walks in the Waitakeres. They are not common. Michael's ("Caryota gigas") mum has a white flowering one which is consistent I believe. Landsendt have one too. I have never noticed any fragrance, but then I have never noticed anything but the slightest purple tinge on cheesmanii either! I am no expert by any means. Next time I see a white one I will have a sniff! I would love to see your garden one day!

cheers

Richard

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Mikey,

The Queensland coastal form of ramsayi is definately different to the Cape York (Tuckeri) form. I have grown both together and they grow at different rates plus the Cape York form is still minus its petiole spines in cultivation. Will be interesting once the Cape York form I have trunks as the ones from the Cape are more slender than the coastal form. I spent some time at Bamaga when I was a police officer and even found what appeared to be clumping specimens among them.

Hi Andrew,

There's not enough to separate these two 'sp' and reduced to no spines is still not going to do it

not only that the flowers (even the colour)is the same,young plants growth rate does'nt do

it either like I said I.M.O. In My Opinion it's conditions.

When I worked at James Cook Uni on my rounds I quite often stopped in to chat with Paul Gadak he at

the time was John Dowe's head of Dept, John is the one that did the field work for these palms

And even back then there was a lot of doubt if they were in fact different.

Anders Barford did the revision of Licuala only a few years back now, but Anders has never seen them

in situ. One of our late collectors that lived in Cairns had a Beautiful form, The late Maria Blogg's

plant was clumping and spineless I don't want to go on anymore I don't want to hi-jack this thread

Send me a private message and we can

swap phone numbers I 'll call you and we can have a great chat in depth.

Cheers dude.. Mikey..

Edited March 24, 2011 by calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

[Gary]

Hi Malcolm,

I certainly haven't made an inventory of white versus the various shades of purple. It's just that I occasionally notice a white one on my walks in the Waitakeres. They are not common. Michael's ("Caryota gigas") mum has a white flowering one which is consistent I believe. Landsendt have one too. I have never noticed any fragrance, but then I have never noticed anything but the slightest purple tinge on cheesmanii either! I am no expert by any means. Next time I see a white one I will have a sniff! I would love to see your garden one day!

cheers

Richard

wouldnt the one at Landsendt be a chathams??they have very few waitakere form nikau on their property but plenty other forms.Baueri can also have colour as seen by attached pic

[malcthomas]

Mikey,

The Queensland coastal form of ramsayi is definately different to the Cape York (Tuckeri) form. I have grown both together and they grow at different rates plus the Cape York form is still minus its petiole spines in cultivation. Will be interesting once the Cape York form I have trunks as the ones from the Cape are more slender than the coastal form. I spent some time at Bamaga when I was a police officer and even found what appeared to be clumping specimens among them.

Hi Andrew,

There's not enough to separate these two 'sp' and reduced to no spines is still not going to do it

not only that the flowers (even the colour)is the same,young plants growth rate does'nt do

it either like I said I.M.O. In My Opinion it's conditions.

When I worked at James Cook Uni on my rounds I quite often stopped in to chat with Paul Gadak he at

the time was John Dowe's head of Dept, John is the one that did the field work for these palms

And even back then there was a lot of doubt if they were in fact different.

Anders Barford did the revision of Licuala only a few years back now, but Anders has never seen them

in situ. One of our late collectors that lived in Cairns had a Beautiful form, The late Maria Blogg's

plant was clumping and spineless I don't want to go on anymore I don't want to hi-jack this thread

Send me a private message and we can

swap phone numbers I 'll call you and we can have a great chat in depth.

Cheers dude.. Mikey..

You are not hijacking this thread...keep it going...Its this sort of debate that keeps us interested in palms ...Every day in Court an expert (usually a doctor or a scientist) is wheeled in to contradict another expert. Its good to read the different points of view..

cheers...

[malcthomas]

Hi Malcolm,

I certainly haven't made an inventory of white versus the various shades of purple. It's just that I occasionally notice a white one on my walks in the Waitakeres. They are not common. Michael's ("Caryota gigas") mum has a white flowering one which is consistent I believe. Landsendt have one too. I have never noticed any fragrance, but then I have never noticed anything but the slightest purple tinge on cheesmanii either! I am no expert by any means. Next time I see a white one I will have a sniff! I would love to see your garden one day!

cheers

Richard

wouldnt the one at Landsendt be a chathams??they have very few waitakere form nikau on their property but plenty other forms.Baueri can also have colour as seen by attached pic

Rich....

The reason that I may appear to be a Doubting Thomas on this white flowered mainland sapida issue, (apart from never seeing one) is that when I responded to Pogobob on the the Purple Nikau thread with:

"I have never personally seen a main land sapida with white/cream flowers nor have I seen any of my many pure cheesemanii with mauve flowers. I do have a Chatham Island with cream flowers. In my opinion the purple nikau is bauerii."

Michael replied that white/cream flowered sapida existed in the Waitakere's and then responded to my skeptical reply with:

"Well there is a lot more than 1, but I am not going to photograph them all to prove they exsist" and in a later post referred me to the the NZPAC website which related to a photograph of Chattham Island Nikau inflorescence at Landsent.

When you told me that you had hundreds of Nikau growing on your Waitakere property and I asked you to estimate the percentage of them being white/cream you told me it was less than 1 percent. You later say that you have no white/cream ones but you have seen some on bush walks.

I'm not trying to be a smartarse here, I have a genuine interest in this subject and would like to know what I am being told is factual and not some Pogobob stunt. 35 years of Detective work takes a bit of getting out of the blood.

Would you know whether Mike's mother's tree is a cultivated one?

I am becoming inclined to think that these white/cream flowered sapida are albinos. These albino flowers are well documented in other plants.

Appreciate yours and Gary's imput. You are welcome down this way anytime. I am retired so any time suits.

Kind regards..

Malcolm

[Tropicgardener]

Hi Mikey,

I can fully appreciate what you are saying about ramsayi...... I am only going by my experience with the 2 locality forms. In my previous garden I had a few individuals of both forms growing (along with a number of potted specimens that were either sold or given to other gardeners). Away from the tropics the ones from Cape York definately grew faster, this info is only due to my own observations over many years of cultivating these plants in the subtropics. Possibly there may be little difference in growth rates in the wet tropics but here where it is cooler there is.

I'm not really interested in whether there should or should not be division within the species (IMO too much of this is done). Look at Archontophoenix alexandrae and its many forms. As I only studied a bachelor of horticulture I will leave taxonomy to the botanists to sort out (or buggar up)!!!

I remember Maria's stunning collection and had been there a number of times when I lived in Cairns. Her passing was a great loss to the world of tropical horticulture.

[Gary]

Hi Malcolm,

I certainly haven't made an inventory of white versus the various shades of purple. It's just that I occasionally notice a white one on my walks in the Waitakeres. They are not common. Michael's ("Caryota gigas") mum has a white flowering one which is consistent I believe. Landsendt have one too. I have never noticed any fragrance, but then I have never noticed anything but the slightest purple tinge on cheesmanii either! I am no expert by any means. Next time I see a white one I will have a sniff! I would love to see your garden one day!

cheers

Richard

wouldnt the one at Landsendt be a chathams??they have very few waitakere form nikau on their property but plenty other forms.Baueri can also have colour as seen by attached pic

Rich....

The reason that I may appear to be a Doubting Thomas on this white flowered mainland sapida issue, (apart from never seeing one) is that when I responded to Pogobob on the the Purple Nikau thread with:

"I have never personally seen a main land sapida with white/cream flowers nor have I seen any of my many pure cheesemanii with mauve flowers. I do have a Chatham Island with cream flowers. In my opinion the purple nikau is bauerii."

Michael replied that white/cream flowered sapida existed in the Waitakere's and then responded to my skeptical reply with:

"Well there is a lot more than 1, but I am not going to photograph them all to prove they exsist" and in a later post referred me to the the NZPAC website which related to a photograph of Chattham Island Nikau inflorescence at Landsent.

When you told me that you had hundreds of Nikau growing on your Waitakere property and I asked you to estimate the percentage of them being white/cream you told me it was less than 1 percent. You later say that you have no white/cream ones but you have seen some on bush walks.

I'm not trying to be a smartarse here, I have a genuine interest in this subject and would like to know what I am being told is factual and not some Pogobob stunt. 35 years of Detective work takes a bit of getting out of the blood.

Would you know whether Mike's mother's tree is a cultivated one?

I am becoming inclined to think that these white/cream flowered sapida are albinos. These albino flowers are well documented in other plants.

Appreciate yours and Gary's imput. You are welcome down this way anytime. I am retired so any time suits.

Kind regards..

Malcolm

Malcolm-cultivated/introduced is an extremely valid point when discussing nikau in Auckland as there are just so many properties that planted them in 1980s on ,that they brought from nurseries.

City councils are very guilty of this and lots of parks have non Auckland forms now producing seed.There are palms out there labelled chathams that i have my doubts on as well a number of Little Barrier also.Myself as one have sold many 1000s of seedlings to nurseries in last 20yrs and quiet a few would have come from yourself as east cape form.I sold many sorts to Blackbridge who did mix a pile up and then asked me if i could come and id but an educated guess is not the same as definite fact.I have seen non kermadec sold as kermadec a couple of years back.How polluted the gene pool is in the Auckland area is anyones guess.Does it matter??

[richnorm]

Hi Malcolm,

No offence taken! I'm not saying there are none on my property, indeed there are parts of my place that I have never even seen! It's a series of heavily bush clad ravines and takes maybe 30 mins to walk/climb to my boundary. It's just I didn't think the white flower thing was so unusual so have never paid much attention to it. I do remember Michael telling me that his white Nikau was not planted which is not to say it is pure local sapida of course. He and Gary have seen other examples of white Nikau so I don't think we are hallucinating! Next time I see one I will let you know more details.

cheers

Richard

[Bennz]

I have about 5 acres or so of native bush in the Waitakeres with hundreds of Nikau.

there are parts of my place that I have never even seen! It's a series of heavily bush clad ravines and takes maybe 30 mins to walk/climb to my boundary.

Ah!!! I can't get my head around this one. You've got 5 acres and you haven't seen it all, and it takes 30mins to get to the boundary? I've got 600 acres of rectangular shaped farm and it doesn't take much longer than that to get from one end to the other! I clearly need to come and visit you to see this for myself!

Bush clad ravines sounds like a good spot for mass Ceroxylon planting.

Cheers,

Ben

[Bennz]

How polluted the gene pool is in the Auckland area is anyones guess.Does it matter??

This is probably the single most important question we can ask. Personally I think Auckland would look much better if all the runty little short-leaved nikaus were replaced with kermedec palms! Whatever the answers is irrelevant, the genetic pollution is already done.

I have a farm where all the nikau were killed out by traditional hunter-gatherers a long time ago. Interesing ethical q., should I collect seed from the nearest naturally occurring nikaus a few kms away, or just mass-plant kermedeces?

Nikaus on my neighbors farm. They're ok, but I think I'll go with mass-kermedecs!

[malcthomas]

Hi Malcolm,

I certainly haven't made an inventory of white versus the various shades of purple. It's just that I occasionally notice a white one on my walks in the Waitakeres. They are not common. Michael's ("Caryota gigas") mum has a white flowering one which is consistent I believe. Landsendt have one too. I have never noticed any fragrance, but then I have never noticed anything but the slightest purple tinge on cheesmanii either! I am no expert by any means. Next time I see a white one I will have a sniff! I would love to see your garden one day!

cheers

Richard

wouldnt the one at Landsendt be a chathams??they have very few waitakere form nikau on their property but plenty other forms.Baueri can also have colour as seen by attached pic

Rich....

The reason that I may appear to be a Doubting Thomas on this white flowered mainland sapida issue, (apart from never seeing one) is that when I responded to Pogobob on the the Purple Nikau thread with:

"I have never personally seen a main land sapida with white/cream flowers nor have I seen any of my many pure cheesemanii with mauve flowers. I do have a Chatham Island with cream flowers. In my opinion the purple nikau is bauerii."

Michael replied that white/cream flowered sapida existed in the Waitakere's and then responded to my skeptical reply with:

"Well there is a lot more than 1, but I am not going to photograph them all to prove they exsist" and in a later post referred me to the the NZPAC website which related to a photograph of Chattham Island Nikau inflorescence at Landsent.

When you told me that you had hundreds of Nikau growing on your Waitakere property and I asked you to estimate the percentage of them being white/cream you told me it was less than 1 percent. You later say that you have no white/cream ones but you have seen some on bush walks.

I'm not trying to be a smartarse here, I have a genuine interest in this subject and would like to know what I am being told is factual and not some Pogobob stunt. 35 years of Detective work takes a bit of getting out of the blood.

Would you know whether Mike's mother's tree is a cultivated one?

I am becoming inclined to think that these white/cream flowered sapida are albinos. These albino flowers are well documented in other plants.

Appreciate yours and Gary's imput. You are welcome down this way anytime. I am retired so any time suits.

Kind regards..

Malcolm

Malcolm-cultivated/introduced is an extremely valid point when discussing nikau in Auckland as there are just so many properties that planted them in 1980s on ,that they brought from nurseries.

City councils are very guilty of this and lots of parks have non Auckland forms now producing seed.There are palms out there labelled chathams that i have my doubts on as well a number of Little Barrier also.Myself as one have sold many 1000s of seedlings to nurseries in last 20yrs and quiet a few would have come from yourself as east cape form.I sold many sorts to Blackbridge who did mix a pile up and then asked me if i could come and id but an educated guess is not the same as definite fact.I have seen non kermadec sold as kermadec a couple of years back.How polluted the gene pool is in the Auckland area is anyones guess.Does it matter??

Gary,

"Does it matter??"

If you are referring to white flowered sapida and not the mixed up AK gene pool outside of Waitakere Nikau habitat, then to a Fern Collector, no.... To an earthquake victim in Christchurch or Japan, definitely not....but this is a discussion board for palm collectors and like all collectors we want to know that what's in our collections are the real deal.

For this we want identification keys that are accurate. When someone wants advice on identifying a Nikau with white flowers, we need to be able to confidently rule out mainland sapida (and vice versa) without the "mainland sapida have both white and mauve flowers" if that in fact is not the true position.

When we read a palm publication and come across something from the authour that we know to be wrong, we don't say "does it matter". One known error in fact casts doubt over the rest of his material.

We are told that there are white/cream flowered Nikau in the Waitakere Ranges. Rich and Michael have seen them and I accept that..but when Rich says they are rare and that he does not have any white flowered Nikau's amongst his hundreds of Waitakere Nikau, then white/cream flowered mainland sapida sits with the man with the 6 fingers analogy in my opinion.

Can others please advise whether this is important or a non-issue.

I will be up next month...will catch up with you personally then..

cheers..

Malcolm

[richnorm]

I have about 5 acres or so of native bush in the Waitakeres with hundreds of Nikau.

there are parts of my place that I have never even seen! It's a series of heavily bush clad ravines and takes maybe 30 mins to walk/climb to my boundary.

Ah!!! I can't get my head around this one. You've got 5 acres and you haven't seen it all, and it takes 30mins to get to the boundary? I've got 600 acres of rectangular shaped farm and it doesn't take much longer than that to get from one end to the other! I clearly need to come and visit you to see this for myself!

Bush clad ravines sounds like a good spot for mass Ceroxylon planting.

Cheers,

Ben

Ben, You should come, I think you would like bashing through the bush. It's actually a little over 10 acres (but only approx half is bush) per the title but that takes no account of the contour. Also the section is long and thin so it's about a kilometre from one end to the other. You have to contend with thickets of native vines, three streams and 45% gradients. The previous owner never even made it to the boundary such is the terrain!

Oh, and you are wrong about Auckland Nikau, I think some of the finest forms are found here provided they are under canopy.

Will have to find a white one for Malcolm's visit.

[malcthomas]

Hi Malcolm,

No offence taken! I'm not saying there are none on my property, indeed there are parts of my place that I have never even seen! It's a series of heavily bush clad ravines and takes maybe 30 mins to walk/climb to my boundary. It's just I didn't think the white flower thing was so unusual so have never paid much attention to it. I do remember Michael telling me that his white Nikau was not planted which is not to say it is pure local sapida of course. He and Gary have seen other examples of white Nikau so I don't think we are hallucinating! Next time I see one I will let you know more details.

cheers

Richard

Rich...

My last post for some reason has come in after this one of yours so I had not read it and as such have not set out to be selective about what you have said about the Nikau on your property.

I can appreciate that you have been ho hum about white sapida flowers as that is what I had been about the purple crown shaft cheesemanii. I can also appreciate what you mean about full shade when you say your property is a series of heavily bush clad ravines.

As to gathering some info about the next white flowered one you see, that would be great..

cheers...

Malcolm

[malcthomas]

[/quote ]

there are parts of my place that I have never even seen! It's a series of heavily bush clad ravines and takes maybe 30 mins to walk/climb to my boundary.

[Bennz]

It's actually a little over 10 acres (but only approx half is bush) per the title but that takes no account of the contour. Also the section is long and thin so it's about a kilometre from one end to the other. You have to contend with thickets of native vines, three streams and 45% gradients. The previous owner never even made it to the boundary such is the terrain!

Hi Richard,

Sounds great! Heaps of potential for mass Ceroxylon plantings, assuming you're not waiting for the kereru to drop seeds in there from Landsendt. Imagine it underplanted in Dypsis and Prestoea... heaps of potential... What? Leave it as native????

you are wrong about Auckland Nikau, I think some of the finest forms are found here provided they are under canopy.

Yeah, interesting one. I agree some of those Ak nikau can look great in understorey. Just that too many of them seem to look like these below, which makes me feel a bit down on them all. Just not as classy as the open crown longer-leaved Cheesemanii types, in my opinion. Very subjective, but I've always been an opinionated

[Gary]

the attached pic is the form of sapida that councils planted around Auckland pre 2000.The pic doesnt do this palm justice and will actually measure it over the next week.It has alot going for it ,There was alot of chathams also planted around the same time frame but are not as big at present as pic form.