Hyophorbe vaughanii

[LJG]

Len, I'm not really disagreeing with you that much.

Feel free to disagree a lot. My wife and kids do daily

My post might seem like I am complaining about our climate. I am not. I am very lucky to have accidently picked out my house and land and for it to end up being in a "Climatic Wonderlands". You know you are in a good spot when there are nurseries and growers all over the place. Now the issue is I am too tempted to try hundreds of borderline things. But it keeps things interesting. If I had the opportunity to try a Hyophorbe vaughanii, I would even give that a go.

[Tyrone]

H indica's only ever hold 5 or 6 leaves. All Hyophorbes are like this. Grown well they are a beautiful palm. Nothing ugly about them IMO. I've got quite a few in the ground and they grow like mad.

For a view of a H vaughanii leaflet have a look at one of the pictures from Kew that Colin put up in this thread. The 5 veins on either side of the central one is plain in it. You won't see that in an indica.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyrone, any chance in sending a pic or pics of your Indicas to show why there so special to you.(it will show us to see what you see) Personally, i really love the black-purple crownshaft, but give me a Hyphorbe Verschaffeltii( Spindle) ANYDAY. Pete

Tyrone, Thanks for sending pics of your Indicas and 2nd shot Bangalow?

That second shot is the trunk of the third shot. Not a Bangalow.

[Pedro 65]

H indica's only ever hold 5 or 6 leaves. All Hyophorbes are like this. Grown well they are a beautiful palm. Nothing ugly about them IMO. I've got quite a few in the ground and they grow like mad.

For a view of a H vaughanii leaflet have a look at one of the pictures from Kew that Colin put up in this thread. The 5 veins on either side of the central one is plain in it. You won't see that in an indica.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyrone, any chance in sending a pic or pics of your Indicas to show why there so special to you.(it will show us to see what you see) Personally, i really love the black-purple crownshaft, but give me a Hyphorbe Verschaffeltii( Spindle) ANYDAY. Pete

Tyrone, Thanks for sending pics of your Indicas and 2nd shot Bangalow?

That second shot is the trunk of the third shot. Not a Bangalow.

Yeh Not very clear shots and the crownshaft was a light green

[Tyrone]

H indica's only ever hold 5 or 6 leaves. All Hyophorbes are like this. Grown well they are a beautiful palm. Nothing ugly about them IMO. I've got quite a few in the ground and they grow like mad.

For a view of a H vaughanii leaflet have a look at one of the pictures from Kew that Colin put up in this thread. The 5 veins on either side of the central one is plain in it. You won't see that in an indica.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyrone, any chance in sending a pic or pics of your Indicas to show why there so special to you.(it will show us to see what you see) Personally, i really love the black-purple crownshaft, but give me a Hyphorbe Verschaffeltii( Spindle) ANYDAY. Pete

I hope Perth and all of southern WA receives above average rainfall this winter after your record dry and heat. {amazing your indicas are alive) I lived in Cottesloe when we won the Americas Cup, it was a fun time. I was studying in Fremantle for my Masters skippers certificate,I do remember the summers very hot and no rain. Great for beautiful Cottesloe Beach or Swanbourne for the Natural but very harsh for Palms. Good Luck with all your Endeavours. Pete

ps My Brothers farm 12,000 acres of grain in WA, so i hope the rains start falling soon.

Thanks mate. I've set my place up to be independent of rainfall. My indicas want for nothing except maybe a bit more sunlight now they're probably 7m tall to the tip of the spear.

Yep the summers can be hot and dry, but the summer nights down the beach are wonderful. Clear night skies, warm ocean.

I hope your brother does alright and gets some rainfall. I don't envy grain farmers. To me it's a complex form of gambling, where the weather throws the dice for you.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Peter, sorry about the pics. It's very hard to photograph these. When they were smaller was much easier. Yep they're green alright. The other one used to have a bit more purple in it. If I give them potassium they seem to colour up a bit more. The last shots of the southern form are almost black in real life.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Pedro 65]

Peter, sorry about the pics. It's very hard to photograph these. When they were smaller was much easier. Yep they're green alright. The other one used to have a bit more purple in it. If I give them potassium they seem to colour up a bit more. The last shots of the southern form are almost black in real life.

Best regards

Tyrone

Tyrone, Dont be sorry, I asked for you to send pics and you did, Thanks, Stay Keen. Pete

[Tyrone]

Tyrone, lovely photos. The first indica photo I posted has the same number of veins in the leaf as yours does. The other set of photos(the yellowish orange ones--3 all together) seem to have only 3 veins total. The one with only 3 veins to the leaf was originally presented to me as indica. Can they both be indicas? There is plainly a difference in the number of leaflet veins... so maybe the proposed vaughanii is an indica--does this mean that indica is variable on many levels, or could I have possibly taken a photo of a hybrid??????

Secondly, I understand where Len is coming from; my indica took a beating, this winter and didn't think it was going to make it, but it's coming out of it. The local photos I have posted on this thread have given me hope on this species for my yard. I have a struggling Caryota obtusa that is gonna be dug up to make room for a pritchardia beccariana(if it's not performing, then find something that will).

As for the other species(bottle and spindle), they are extremely common around these parts and are nothing special. Many people who think "a palm is just a palm" have several in their yards. For this reason alone, I don't like or need them in my yard; they are common and I actually don't like the look of them--rather have a gaussia princeps than a bottle and I'd rather have a gaussia attentuata than a spindle(actually have both gaussias mentioned). Now, what's common for me may not be so for you all in Austrailia and Southern California. For example, Howea Forsteriana is pretty common in California(and many other places, for that matter) but it's definately not around South Florida, so I have a clump. If bottles and spindles are not common in So Cal, then I can see planting them. Why collect a palm that's not collectable? If I were in Len's shoes, I would get a bunch of Rhopalostylis, but I hear they are pretty common in those parts... we all wanna grow rare and healthy show pieces, because in the end, it makes us feel better about ourselves. Ayn Rand explained this concept well in her book, The Virtues of Selfishness.

Palmtalk is AWESOME

Thanks mate. The leaflet vein pic I posted was from my indica youngsters just next to the area where my in ground ones are (they're in a pic or two). I took a picture of the young ones because they were down at ground level. To take a photo of the large ones would have required a ladder. I don't know whether the number of veins changes as the plant ages. Will see if I can tell from the ground whether that is the case with my large ones. But the Kew H vaughanii is only a youngster so the comparison is a good one in my opinion for two plants at similar sizes. I'm not a botanist so I don't know what the different veins are called. The central one is the main one, then there are the major ones on either side of the central one. Then there are minor ones alongside them. I was told by a reputable source (Kamipalms-he doesn't post here anymore) that H vaughanii has 5 on either side of the central main vein, and the pic from Colin in Kew shows exactly that. That's the first time I've actually seen a leaflet detail for H vaughanii. Very little information exists on this species anywhere.

There are two forms of H indica going around and they do appear different. RPS sells them as eastern form and southern form. The eastern form is mostly green but can have purple tinges in it. The southern form (from the Tampon region of Reunion) has more colour, and can exhibit red and in my case almost black crownshaft and petiole colouration. The seeds appear larger than the eastern one, but that could be just the genetics of the mother plant. They also appear faster than the green in my experience. My southern form that I pictured grew from seed that arrived in May 05, and germinated soon after. It would be the fastest growing palm I have, and would be 4m tall to the tip of the spear now, after less than 6 years. So with H indica there is definite variation.

Also within the same seed batch there will be some rockets, some average growers and some definite runts. Some with colour, some without. In nature only the strong would survive, whereas in cultivation we try and make everything live. So when we buy a H indica from a nursery, we may buy the runt unknowingly, and it will grow slowly, get burnt by the slightest sunlight, and burn well before it gets really cold. My fast southern form also had some runty siblings which are now probably dead, and some average growers which were green, and also some nice fast growing red ones. All the seeds looked identical when I sowed them.

I also understand where Len is coming from too. Who wants a plant in their garden that looks crap even if it is rare. If my Golden Torch Heliconia's burn up again this winter, their out and hardier species will go in. Real estate is expensive, so we can't plant everything. I'm in that same situation where I refrain from planting common stuff because I need room for my really rare stuff when it's ready to be planted out.

Here in my part of Oz, the pickings are slim. Most of my rare stuff I've had to import myself either from overseas or from Queensland. Bottles and Spindles aren't that common over here, and if people have them, you can assume that they love palms, simply because they're not a Syagrus or Washingtonia. Hyophorbe indica are very rare here. I've only seen a handful in Perth and they are only in collectors gardens. None are as big as mine, which might sound like shameless boasting, but I doubt any are bigger in WA. If they are I would love to see them and meet their owners because they are probably just like myself-mad about palms. Even when I went to Queensland on occasion I've never seen large indica's in public collections. That doesn't mean they're not there of course, and I'd say in northern NSW to QLD there'd be some beauties in private collections hiding away somewhere, seeding year after year.

My motivation for growing rare palms, is not to have something no one else has. Most rare palms are rare because they're threatened species. If I can grow some up and plant them and give them to like minded individuals, that makes me feel good. If mine seed and I make another generation of rare and endangered palms I'm thrilled to be able top share that with others. I'm not quite at that stage yet. H indica is a plant threatened with extinction in Reunion, so if mine seed I'll be ecstatic. My large ones have tried, but it's a bit too shady in their for them to hang on to a flower. They've got to emerge from the canopy which means they have to zig zag out into the open somewhere.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Len, I'm not really disagreeing with you that much.

Feel free to disagree a lot. My wife and kids do daily

My post might seem like I am complaining about our climate. I am not. I am very lucky to have accidently picked out my house and land and for it to end up being in a "Climatic Wonderlands". You know you are in a good spot when there are nurseries and growers all over the place. Now the issue is I am too tempted to try hundreds of borderline things. But it keeps things interesting. If I had the opportunity to try a Hyophorbe vaughanii, I would even give that a go.

No problems. Keep pushing the boundaries and telling us all of your experiences. You guys over there are lucky due to the fact you have access to some really rare stuff via the great network of nurseries you have, especially one starting with J. I look to your experiences over there with this and that because you have a jump of about 10 years over me with the stuff you can buy ready to put in the ground (especially New Caledonian and Madagascan palms). Here I have to start from scratch, from seed and it takes me many years to get a palm to plantable size. Your experiences help me from wasting my time with species that wouldn't make it at all here. It does keep things interesting.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Just been out to have a look at my large indica leaf vein arrangement and this is what I've found. The common theme on my plants is a prominent middle vein and on either side of this central vein another prominent vein. These often (especially the centre vein) have little tufts of fur on them. But on the same leaf, you can get a situation where there is another row of veins between the outer and the middle vein which becomes more prominent and even now and again has tufts of fur on them as well, so on these leaflets you have a central vein, an outer prominent vein, and a middle prominent vein, all with various degrees of tufts of fur. This is different to the vaughanii pictured in Kew.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Daryl]

Here's a piccy of my indica leaf for comparison...

[Tyrone]

Here's a piccy of my indica leaf for comparison...

Yep, that's what I would expect for an indica. Just like mine really. Nice deep green you've got going there Daryl. Very healthy plant that one.

Best regards

Tyrone

[palmtreesforpleasure]

been offline for a few days

in about 4 weeks i will go back to Kew and take more detailed pictures, hopefully it will help us all with id in the future.

it did look different to indica.

have 2 indica growing in the garden at home both forms, both in shade. min during year at night 6c normal high 26-28c in summer

both thriving

regards

colin

[Mandrew968]

Please get a good shot of the leaf veins and one of the entire plant--Thank you very much, Colin!

[Mandrew968]

Update: The palm that is in question is most likely a hybrid... but of what? I don't know...

[Mandrew968]

Update on this infamous Hyophorbe in question...

[Mandrew968]

I am holding out hope that this is more than an indica, but my son has his doubts...

[palmtreesforpleasure]

I am holding out hope that this is more than an indica, but my son has his doubts...

Hello Mandrew

Hyophorbe indica are very variable, we have 3 versions sold in Australia, Green , red and champagne form.

I have attached the leaflet and few other pictures of my red form that i bought as H.vaughanii, my green form looks like yours in the pictures. When i have clean mature seed i will compare both to see if they are different to each other. The immature seed i have looks like the vaughanii seed being a little rounder that the green form i have but that may mean nothing other than they vary so much.

regards

Colin

[wayne page]

This species is a critically endangered species and not available in the industry, unless for official botanic collections. You will not find this species in general cultivation. I worked on its conservation a decade ago when we knew of only 4 adults globally, all on Mauritius. It has now been successfully propogated from the known genotypes and juveniles have been replanted into forest reserves and botanic collections. If any one truly has this species outside of its CR remit, then this is illegal to have it, sell it or share it. Every individual is extremely important for conservation study and it is not a palm that can even be considered for general trade at the current time.  There are several other Hyophorbes from the Mascarene islands that are widely cultivated globally, and to an untrained botanist they look similar.

[wayne page]

On 4/27/2011 at 2:34 PM, palmtreesforpleasure said:

Some red Hyophorbe indica's were sold as H.vaughnii,

is any one growing the real thing? have any pictures, growing condition verses the otherHyopherbe's

regards

Colin

This species (H,vaughanii) is a critically endangered species and not available in the industry, unless for official botanic collections. You will not find this species in general cultivation. I worked on its conservation a decade ago when we knew of only 4 adults globally, all on Mauritius. It has now been successfully propogated from the known genotypes and juveniles have been replanted into forest reserves and botanic collections. If any one truly has this species outside of its CR remit, then this is illegal to have it, sell it or share it. Every individual is extremely important for conservation study and it is not a palm that can even be considered for general trade at the current time.  There are several other Hyophorbes from the Mascarene islands that are widely cultivated globally, and to an untrained botanist they look similar.

[wayne page]

On 4/27/2011 at 5:41 PM, Jeff Searle said:

Very interesting, don't count on it. If their going to promote this palm as H V, they better be ready to back it up with some flower and seed DNA. Just saying....

Jeff

This species is a critically endangered species and not available in the industry, unless for official botanic collections. You will not find this species in general cultivation. I worked on its conservation a decade ago when we knew of only 4 adults globally, all on Mauritius. It has now been successfully propogated from the known genotypes and juveniles have been replanted into forest reserves and botanic collections. If any one truly has this species outside of its CR remit, then this is illegal to have it, sell it or share it. Every individual is extremely important for conservation study and it is not a palm that can even be considered for general trade at the current time.  There are several other Hyophorbes from the Mascarene islands that are widely cultivated globally, and to an untrained botanist they look similar.

[wayne page]

On 4/24/2015 at 2:39 PM, Mandrew968 said:

Update on this infamous Hyophorbe in question...

This is not H. vaughanii. H. vaughanii  is a critically endangered species and not available in the industry, unless for official botanic collections. You will not find this species in general cultivation. I worked on its conservation a decade ago when we knew of only 4 adults globally, all on Mauritius. It has now been successfully propogated from the known genotypes and juveniles have been replanted into forest reserves and botanic collections. If any one truly has this species outside of its CR remit, then this is illegal to have it, sell it or share it. Every individual is extremely important for conservation study and it is not a palm that can even be considered for general trade at the current time.  There are several other Hyophorbes from the Mascarene islands that are widely cultivated globally, and to an untrained botanist they look similar.

[mike in kurtistown]

If anyone in authority is REALLY interested in saving this species and widening its distribution, release some seeds for commercial sale.