Difference of cold hardiness of Syagrus romanzoffiana

[Alberto]

Some years ago I brought seeds from (in my eyes) a different looking queen palm (Syagrus romanzoffiana) from Campinas ( tropical region) in the State São Paulo. This region rarely see some very ´´soft´´freezes. It was interesting to see the difference in cold hardiness compared to my native queens from the tableland of Paraná State (subtropical)

First 2 pix of native queens. The tinier grows at the coldest spot of my place

[Alberto]

This is the ´´tropical queen´´ that show clearly damage with the last frost.

The first time that I see a frost burned queen!

[Zeeth]

The frost burned ones look like the ones we have here in florida, while the native ones seem more graceful

[Nigel]

Alberto I think that says it all............

In the US they have experiences the same with Santa catarina queens, Bonsal queens, silver queens, all with provenance in our region and much hardier, you just proved that this is all correct.

[Ampli]

Here in Italy we have the 'tropical' form too.

Anyone know where I can find some seeds of the more hardy forms???

[Alberto]

I forgot to say that the´´tropical queen´´is less hardy then ´´carandaí palm´´ ( Copernicia alba - blue feather palms in front) They are today like before the freezes.

The seeds came from the southermost population in Santa Fé - Argentina

[Takil-Explorer]

Well in Southern Europe they should use the Syagrus from the highlands of Santa Catarina. Why grow tropical forms if there is a much better frostresistent one. And in Italy they can get some frost at many places.

Alexander

[Ampli]

Well in Southern Europe they should use the Syagrus from the highlands of Santa Catarina. Why grow tropical forms if there is a much better frostresistent one. And in Italy they can get some frost at many places.

Alexander

Because the 99.99% of the Syagrus sold in the nursery here come from Floridian, Egyptian or Canarian growers.

[greekpalm]

in Greece we have the same tropical ones .... we do not see any frost damage on queens here in Athens

[gyuseppe]

in my city in we have the same tropical ones ,temperatures down to -3 degrees Celsius( 26.6 Fahrenheit) , we do not see any frost damage on queens here

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Nigel, the ones I ordered from RPS, where are they from. I ordered the ones that are supposed to be hardier. (FYI, they haven't come yet but it hasn't been a month yet either).

Alberto I think that says it all............

In the US they have experiences the same with Santa catarina queens, Bonsal queens, silver queens, all with provenance in our region and much hardier, you just proved that this is all correct.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Alberto, here in North Florida Copernicia alba doesn't show freeze damage right away. I thought my Carandai was fine until it got warm then it died. My queens showed the damage sooner but survived (but they were sure ugly).

I forgot to say that the´´tropical queen´´is less hardy then ´´carandaí palm´´ ( Copernicia alba - blue feather palms in front) They are today like before the freezes.

The seeds came from the southermost population in Santa Fé - Argentina

[Nigel]

Nigel, the ones I ordered from RPS, where are they from. I ordered the ones that are supposed to be hardier. (FYI, they haven't come yet but it hasn't been a month yet either).

Alberto I think that says it all............

In the US they have experiences the same with Santa catarina queens, Bonsal queens, silver queens, all with provenance in our region and much hardier, you just proved that this is all correct.

if thats litoralis I dont know but they are not from here i dont think.

[edbrown_III]

I have one about 12 foot tall or so here in Jax its not doing bad and just started flowering --- freeze didnt bother it that much --- I noticed alot of older leeaves on Livistonas die in the aftermth of a cold spell. I dont know if it is the lack of water durng the dry season or just the latent effects of the freezes.

I had some burning with one of the queens but most of them are okay.

Best regards

Ed

[Nigel]

Nigel, the ones I ordered from RPS, where are they from. I ordered the ones that are supposed to be hardier. (FYI, they haven't come yet but it hasn't been a month yet either).

Alberto I think that says it all............

In the US they have experiences the same with Santa catarina queens, Bonsal queens, silver queens, all with provenance in our region and much hardier, you just proved that this is all correct.

if thats litoralis I dont know but they are not from here i dont think.

keith I just looked at the RPS website and it says as follows...

A robust cultivar of the Queen Palm from Argentina, Uruguay and Southern Brazil, where it is found to over 1000 m (3300 ft.) altitude, with a thicker, sturdier trunk that supports a compact crown of arching leaves with particularly thick and wide leaflets. It is very hardy to cold and is said to survive temperatures down to -9°C (15°F) undamaged. Apparently this palm has already been in cultivation in the U.S. for a while, most popularly under the name Silver Queen. Reportedly, the palm received that name in Florida not because its leaves or any other of its parts are silver, but rather because after a hard freeze that killed all the more tender Queen Palms, the ones that survived, the Silver Queens, had leaflets that appeared in a strange, translucent silver tone in sunlight, the result of a light frost damage.

I think this needs some clarification for the following reasons,

1. The term litoralis means 'shore' or 'coast' so there is a contradiction in that the mountain queens do not come from the coast.

2. I believe Gaston and Rich came up with the name litoralis for some Syagrus on shoreline of the River Plate in Argentina

3. The huge Syagrus from the tablelends of Parana ,Santa Catarina and into Rio Grande do Sul is completely different from the one in coastal Brasil, uruguay and argentina. I recently drove down the coast to Uruguay and you see Syagrus that are tiny, compact with fine leaves and full crowns,this type is common through the lowgrounds of this area. This is not a robust cultivar.

4.The name silver queen is quite correctly from Florida but as far as we know we dont know the exact provenance, was it a robust mountain queen or a small stocky litoral queen

5. The Syagrus from the low lieing land is I believe also very cold hardy but needs more summer heat.

My opinion is these two cultivars are so completely different they cant be put together. I am kicking myself for not taking pics of the small litoral syagrus because i was so focused on Butias. If I put the two photos side by side you would not believe it was the same species.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Nigel

[Alberto]

I am kicking myself for not taking pics of the small litoral syagrus because i was so focused on Butias. If I put the two photos side by side you would not believe it was the same species.

You´re lucky I´m not at your side this moment...I myself would be kicking you!

[Nigel]

I am kicking myself for not taking pics of the small litoral syagrus because i was so focused on Butias. If I put the two photos side by side you would not believe it was the same species.

You´re lucky I´m not at your side this moment...I myself would be kicking you!

Yes very dumb of me, some of them when fruiting are not much bigger than yur Chameadorea plumosas to give an idea of size.

[gyuseppe]

[Nigel]

this interesting,the little Syagrus romanzoffiana,Nigel you've collected the seeds? this would be a good.

I was travelling south and wanted to get most of the distance in one day. I made stupid assumption that this palm continued all the way and would be even more cold hardy further south, but the next day i didnt see 1 more, 200km from the border they disappeared, there was no syagrus !!!

I wondered if the strip by the sea there is too coool for them and I wondered if maybe they adpated to this small size to cope with extended cool period of winter.

I didnt get any seeds and the really small ones only grow along the coast between Porto Alegre and around 200km from the border.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Nigel

[Alberto]

I am kicking myself for not taking pics of the small litoral syagrus because i was so focused on Butias. If I put the two photos side by side you would not believe it was the same species.

You´re lucky I´m not at your side this moment...I myself would be kicking you!

Yes very dumb of me, some of them when fruiting are not much bigger than yur Chameadorea plumosas to give an idea of size.

Now you´re making me really curious!!!!!!

How were the trunks? Are they atractive or somewhat stunted look?

[Nigel]

I am kicking myself for not taking pics of the small litoral syagrus because i was so focused on Butias. If I put the two photos side by side you would not believe it was the same species.

You´re lucky I´m not at your side this moment...I myself would be kicking you!

Yes very dumb of me, some of them when fruiting are not much bigger than yur Chameadorea plumosas to give an idea of size.

Now you´re making me really curious!!!!!!

How were the trunks? Are they atractive or somewhat stunted look?

No is a very beautiful palm , is like a different species !!!

[Alberto]

Mostra uma foto se não te dou chute na bunda!!!!

[Nigel]

Mostra uma foto se não te dou chute na bunda!!!!

[Alberto]

Mostra uma foto se não te dou chute na bunda!!!!

Nigel, You deserve a punishment:

Write 1000 times:

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

.....

..... :D

[Nigel]

Nigel, You deserve a punishment:

Write 1000 times:

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

Always take pictures of interesting palm trees and not only butias!

.....

..... :D

Alberto, I am really very angry with myself and already kicked myself 2000 times.

I drove the whole day from Florianopolis to Rio Grande and it was very late in the day and I was very tired and I thought tomorrow I stop and make photos. Then when we left Rio Grande for Chui the road is along the coastal strip with water on both sides and i did not see 1 more of those Syagrus. Then when we returned we drove to Rio Grande and headed inland to try to find Kelens witeckii and they are not on this road either !!

When you go inland the Syagrus are much bigger and more normal, but I think you remember those Syagrus from our trip,they are not so big as the mountain queens, with finer leaves and thinner trunks and not so interesting.

So those strange small Syagrus only grow on the coast strip between Porto Alegre and Rio Grande.

[Alberto]

Yes I can understand this things happen.

We all will forgive you........ this time.

[Nigel]

Alberto,if you can find a free weekend you can drive here on friday night and stay, and saturday we can go there very early and return sunday.

I also saw some other interesting things to investigate. Near Torres was a very beautiful slim trunked Butia I assume was catarinensis of roebelini proportions, and just past Porto Alegre was some huge old Butias in a field which needed investigating because I suspect this was a remnant of wild population.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Ed, you've inspired me. I'll try C. alba again. I lost mine to the first hard freeze after it was planted (I can't remember details...its been a couple years now...it might have been spring 2010 i realized it was dead). Botanics in Homestead has nice, decent size specimens. I love thier colors, but gave up after it died.

You are right about Livistonas (@ least decora does this in my yard). Older leaves die off once temps warm. I've now decided that must be delayed cold damage. At first, I thought it was just potassium deficiency. That hasn't happened to my L. nitida or L. saribus yet. L. chinensis and L. drudei just defoliate completely with the first freeze.... Both specimens are completly exposed so they get frozen hard. I do have a L. chinensis with some minor protection and it does better.

Thanks for your response. We are so close to one another that your experiences are my best guide.

I have one about 12 foot tall or so here in Jax its not doing bad and just started flowering --- freeze didnt bother it that much --- I noticed alot of older leeaves on Livistonas die in the aftermth of a cold spell. I dont know if it is the lack of water durng the dry season or just the latent effects of the freezes.

I had some burning with one of the queens but most of them are okay.

Best regards

Ed

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Nigel,

Thanks for the response. I've always been confused by the provenances of queen palms that are hardier. Up here we tend to have freeze damage on queens in cold winters, but there is a lot of variability from plant to plant. I'd like to try them all and see what works best here.

Nigel, the ones I ordered from RPS, where are they from. I ordered the ones that are supposed to be hardier. (FYI, they haven't come yet but it hasn't been a month yet either).

Alberto I think that says it all............

In the US they have experiences the same with Santa catarina queens, Bonsal queens, silver queens, all with provenance in our region and much hardier, you just proved that this is all correct.

if thats litoralis I dont know but they are not from here i dont think.

keith I just looked at the RPS website and it says as follows...

A robust cultivar of the Queen Palm from Argentina, Uruguay and Southern Brazil, where it is found to over 1000 m (3300 ft.) altitude, with a thicker, sturdier trunk that supports a compact crown of arching leaves with particularly thick and wide leaflets. It is very hardy to cold and is said to survive temperatures down to -9°C (15°F) undamaged. Apparently this palm has already been in cultivation in the U.S. for a while, most popularly under the name Silver Queen. Reportedly, the palm received that name in Florida not because its leaves or any other of its parts are silver, but rather because after a hard freeze that killed all the more tender Queen Palms, the ones that survived, the Silver Queens, had leaflets that appeared in a strange, translucent silver tone in sunlight, the result of a light frost damage.

I think this needs some clarification for the following reasons,

1. The term litoralis means 'shore' or 'coast' so there is a contradiction in that the mountain queens do not come from the coast.

2. I believe Gaston and Rich came up with the name litoralis for some Syagrus on shoreline of the River Plate in Argentina

3. The huge Syagrus from the tablelends of Parana ,Santa Catarina and into Rio Grande do Sul is completely different from the one in coastal Brasil, uruguay and argentina. I recently drove down the coast to Uruguay and you see Syagrus that are tiny, compact with fine leaves and full crowns,this type is common through the lowgrounds of this area. This is not a robust cultivar.

4.The name silver queen is quite correctly from Florida but as far as we know we dont know the exact provenance, was it a robust mountain queen or a small stocky litoral queen

5. The Syagrus from the low lieing land is I believe also very cold hardy but needs more summer heat.

My opinion is these two cultivars are so completely different they cant be put together. I am kicking myself for not taking pics of the small litoral syagrus because i was so focused on Butias. If I put the two photos side by side you would not believe it was the same species.

[Alberto]

Nigel,is rhe look of this Rio Grande do Sul shore queens similar to this from Paraguay?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=25921&st=0&p=428301&hl=+queen%20+paraguay&fromsearch=1&#entry428301

[Nigel]

Nigel,is rhe look of this Rio Grande do Sul shore queens similar to this from Paraguay?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=25921&st=0&p=428301&hl=+queen%20+paraguay&fromsearch=1&#entry428301

These remind me of the ones we saw when we drove through RS together ,smaller and finer leaved ,they are closer to the litoral ones but not the same.

The litoral ones are even smaller and much less plumose with shorter more upright leaves.

[Takil-Explorer]

Here some Syagrus from the Palmar de Castillos. Syagrus grows there together with Butia odorata.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

Here a nice specimem. Palmar de Castillos, Uruguay.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

Another one in that same area.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

And a dry hill full with them. Also a very silvery Butia odorata. I have noticed that in Uruguay Syagrus can be seen in humid reverine habitads and at dry hills with Opuntia and Cereus. Butia odorata the same.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

Another one in that same area.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

And here to compair Syagrus romanzoffiana from the tablelands of Santa Catarina.

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

Another one where it grows together with Butia eriospatha.

Alexander

[Nigel]

Alexanders first photos how very well the Syagrus from that area, also is similar to those in inland Rio Grande do Sul , but is not the same as the mountain queens which are much bigger with much more leafy crowns and wider leaflets , or those tiny litoral ones at opposite extreme. In the last photo which I assume is a mountain queen you can see the much heavier leaf.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Nigel

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Those pix of the Queens and B. eriospatha are fantastic. What is the climate of that region? Are frosts common in winter or is it mostly frost free?