Butia trees and there seeds.

[ErikSJI]

Some photos of Butia odorata and there seeds. Past threads have discussed about the round seed and the football shaped ones. Maybe someone can explain to me what the differences are. As these Butia's put off both shaped seed as I thought all Butia's did.

[ErikSJI]

Some photos of Butia odorata and there seeds. Past threads have discussed about the round seed and the football shaped ones. Maybe someone can explain to me what the differences are. As these Butia's put off both shaped seed as I thought all Butia's did.

I guess I am in the photos posting mood.

[ErikSJI]

Last photo is of seeds cleaned from one clump. It clearly has both round seeds and football shaped seeds.

[MAUSER]

Last photo is of seeds cleaned from one clump. It clearly has both round seeds and football shaped seeds.

Nice Photos

[ErikSJI]

Last photo is of seeds cleaned from one clump. It clearly has both round seeds and football shaped seeds.

Nice Photos

Thanks.

[The Silent Seed]

You can train squirrels to play football with the football shaped ones!

I would think the shape may be affected by where they are, on the bract? Maybe some are forced to elongate being squished by others?

Edited August 5, 2011 by santoury

[ErikSJI]

You can train squirrels to play football with the football shaped ones!

I would think the shape may be affected by where they are, on the bract? Maybe some are forced to elongate being squished by others?

Great idea.

[ErikSJI]

Last photo is of seeds cleaned from one clump. It clearly has both round seeds and football shaped seeds.

So again the seeds as you can see are different sizes and shapes from the same tree. It has been explained to me about Genotype and phenotype of plants as well as humans. A butia is a butia this is the genetic make up of the tree. Genotype. The way the butia looks or has evolved is the phenotype. Regardless if you are in the mountains of Brazil or your backyard in Florida the pheontype can change and evolve but the genotype will always remain the same.

Wikepedia genotype and phenotype.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotype-phenotype_distinction

[The Silent Seed]

I personally still think it's a result of pressing against each other - squeezing, and such.

[ErikSJI]

I personally still think it's a result of pressing against each other - squeezing, and such.

You could be right Santoury. As the large seeds small seeds and football shaped seeds. They all come out looking the same when they are germinated. So it confuses me when someone says you can tell this Butia from that Butia because of the shape and size of the seed and what region of the world it is from.

[ErikSJI]

It would make sense I guess. So other Butias that put off nothing but Football seeds are possible more compact and pressing against each other?

[The Silent Seed]

I'm sure that different conditions could result in more squeezing in other Butias - for example, maybe if it's a bit cooler, they may be held tighter together. It'd be an interesting research project.

[ErikSJI]

I'm sure that different conditions could result in more squeezing in other Butias - for example, maybe if it's a bit cooler, they may be held tighter together. It'd be an interesting research project.

If that were the case Santoury it would throw out the idea of identifying Butias across the world because some seed are elongated or round or big. Which I believe should be the case.

Here is an old thread that had some discussion about it. http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=23266&st=40

I have the garden variety Butia Odorata formally know as capitata or whatever they want to call it now. Again it puts of round seeds elongated seeds oval seeds. So does that mean I have a butia capitata x odorata x yatay x fumanchoo? No in my opinion.

[The Silent Seed]

Are you suggesting that the seeds are the only way to identify the various Butias? I'll read the thread now - thanks!

That said, I don't even have one yet - or seeds - so when I end up getting seeds, I'll definitely see what shape they are!

Is this seed shape variation unique to Butias? I've seen some differences in Syagrus seeds, but they are all more-or-less oval.

[ErikSJI]

Are you suggesting that the seeds are the only way to identify the various Butias? I'll read the thread now - thanks!

That said, I don't even have one yet - or seeds - so when I end up getting seeds, I'll definitely see what shape they are!

Is this seed shape variation unique to Butias? I've seen some differences in Syagrus seeds, but they are all more-or-less oval.

No I am not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is that seed size and shape is not a good way to determine what kind of Butia's they are. As was discussed in the past.

A butia is a butia hence the Genotype. The outward appearance of the tree would be the pheonotype regardless of seed size,location, cold hardiness. They have adapted and taken on a new look depending on where they are. They all came from the same Gene pool in my opinion.

[Nigel]

I personally still think it's a result of pressing against each other - squeezing, and such.

You could be right Santoury. As the large seeds small seeds and football shaped seeds. They all come out looking the same when they are germinated. So it confuses me when someone says you can tell this Butia from that Butia because of the shape and size of the seed and what region of the world it is from.

Erik, you need to buy an airticket to South America. Only by studying wild uncontaminated populations can you start to understand the differences. Palms in cultivation are often hybridised let alone the fact that you are looking at seeds pollinated by Syagrus which is known to affect seed size !!!!

[ErikSJI]

I personally still think it's a result of pressing against each other - squeezing, and such.

You could be right Santoury. As the large seeds small seeds and football shaped seeds. They all come out looking the same when they are germinated. So it confuses me when someone says you can tell this Butia from that Butia because of the shape and size of the seed and what region of the world it is from.

Erik, you need to buy an airticket to South America. Only by studying wild uncontaminated populations can you start to understand the differences. Palms in cultivation are often hybridised let alone the fact that you are looking at seeds pollinated by Syagrus which is known to affect seed size !!!!

Actually Nigel that bucket of seeds was not pollinated. They are your garden variety Butia odorata. They are from one of Marks double Butia's they were requested from a customer. I noticed while the fruit were growing that they were all different sizes and shapes as well as when they were cleaned. I was told this is normal. Which is why I was confused with what everyone else has been saying.

So if I understand you correctly all of those butias in the photos then would be Butia capitata x archerie x odorata x microspadix and the only way to get a real one is to buy a ticket to South America. Yikes. All trees have been contaminated in one form or another hence why there is so many varieties even in the wild. They all started from one Gene pool hence the name Butia in front of all the species regardless of where you travel in my opinion. I know your travels have taken you far and wide. In your opinion what was the first Butia that all butia's derived from?

[ErikSJI]

It would make sense though in the difference in size and shape of the seeds. Which would mean the only place you can determine seed size and shape for trees is in the wild. So I should not assume it is what it is here in America by the shape and size because they have all been hybridized.

[The Silent Seed]

So, none of the ones on Ebay are pure odorata / capitata ?

[ErikSJI]

So, none of the ones on Ebay are pure odorata / capitata ?

I guess it could be suspect and you would be getting a

butia capitata x odorata x yatay x fumanchoo Which would probably be the case from ebay.

Unless your seed source is from South America where the tree originated.

[Nigel]

yes, unless you have 100% provenance on your plant you cannot know what it is with 100% certainty. It may well be pure but there is also many hybrids.

The only way to know 100% is in an uncontaimented population.

For example your double from which the seeds came could be perhaps from one seed that gemrinated as a double, one could be pure odorata the other could be odorata x yaty if stray yatay pollen fell on that one stamen.

When you visit a wild population you see some slight seed variation, but never anything on the scale of what you showed in that photo.

Even when you say the seed source is south america is it from wild population or is it from palms in cultivation because taking seeds from cultivated palms is easy ,taking seeds from 400 year old 10 metre trunk odoratas in middle of boggy field is not easy.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Nigel

[ErikSJI]

yes, unless you have 100% provenance on your plant you cannot know what it is with 100% certainty. It may well be pure but there is also many hybrids.

The only way to know 100% is in an uncontaimented population.

For example your double from which the seeds came could be perhaps from one seed that gemrinated as a double, one could be pure odorata the other could be odorata x yaty if stray yatay pollen fell on that one stamen.

When you visit a wild population you see some slight seed variation, but never anything on the scale of what you showed in that photo.

Even when you say the seed source is south america is it from wild population or is it from palms in cultivation because taking seeds from cultivated palms is easy ,taking seeds from 400 year old 10 metre trunk odoratas in middle of boggy field is not easy.

Thanks Nigel. That makes the most sense in what I have been trying to figure out for awhile.

[Zeeth]

yes, unless you have 100% provenance on your plant you cannot know what it is with 100% certainty. It may well be pure but there is also many hybrids.

The only way to know 100% is in an uncontaimented population.

For example your double from which the seeds came could be perhaps from one seed that gemrinated as a double, one could be pure odorata the other could be odorata x yaty if stray yatay pollen fell on that one stamen.

When you visit a wild population you see some slight seed variation, but never anything on the scale of what you showed in that photo.

Even when you say the seed source is south america is it from wild population or is it from palms in cultivation because taking seeds from cultivated palms is easy ,taking seeds from 400 year old 10 metre trunk odoratas in middle of boggy field is not easy.

Nigel, where do the tallest Butia species grow? (and what species is that?)

[edric]

I'm planning on germinating some of mine, how long should they be left out to dry, and should I sow them in Sept. or should I wait till March, I'm near Daytona Beach, thanks, Ed

[ErikSJI]

yes, unless you have 100% provenance on your plant you cannot know what it is with 100% certainty. It may well be pure but there is also many hybrids.

The only way to know 100% is in an uncontaimented population.

For example your double from which the seeds came could be perhaps from one seed that gemrinated as a double, one could be pure odorata the other could be odorata x yaty if stray yatay pollen fell on that one stamen.

When you visit a wild population you see some slight seed variation, but never anything on the scale of what you showed in that photo.

Even when you say the seed source is south america is it from wild population or is it from palms in cultivation because taking seeds from cultivated palms is easy ,taking seeds from 400 year old 10 metre trunk odoratas in middle of boggy field is not easy.

Thanks Nigel. That makes the most sense in what I have been trying to figure out for awhile.

But again I am still confused. As I believe they are all Hybrids even the 400 year old Yatay. Palms in the wild hybridize just as easy in South America as they are in cultivated palms. These palms have been around way longer then humans and have evolved and adapted to there new environments. Seeds are taken by birds / animals and they fly all around. They drop there seeds in there new environment and it grows and is hybridized by another and this process has been repeated for millions of years. Getting seeds from the wild population and the cultivated ones is no challenge for an animal. They just wait for them to drop on the ground and head south to Chile.

[ErikSJI]

yes, unless you have 100% provenance on your plant you cannot know what it is with 100% certainty. It may well be pure but there is also many hybrids.

The only way to know 100% is in an uncontaimented population.

For example your double from which the seeds came could be perhaps from one seed that gemrinated as a double, one could be pure odorata the other could be odorata x yaty if stray yatay pollen fell on that one stamen.

When you visit a wild population you see some slight seed variation, but never anything on the scale of what you showed in that photo.

Even when you say the seed source is south america is it from wild population or is it from palms in cultivation because taking seeds from cultivated palms is easy ,taking seeds from 400 year old 10 metre trunk odoratas in middle of boggy field is not easy.

I could be wrong but Butia yatay is a palm native to southern Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay and northern Argentina. It is the tallest of all the species in the Butia genus. According to Wikepedia.

Nigel, where do the tallest Butia species grow? (and what species is that?)

[IdolLurker]

yes, unless you have 100% provenance on your plant you cannot know what it is with 100% certainty. It may well be pure but there is also many hybrids.

The only way to know 100% is in an uncontaimented population.

For example your double from which the seeds came could be perhaps from one seed that gemrinated as a double, one could be pure odorata the other could be odorata x yaty if stray yatay pollen fell on that one stamen.

When you visit a wild population you see some slight seed variation, but never anything on the scale of what you showed in that photo.

Even when you say the seed source is south america is it from wild population or is it from palms in cultivation because taking seeds from cultivated palms is easy ,taking seeds from 400 year old 10 metre trunk odoratas in middle of boggy field is not easy.

Nigel - I enjoyed this narrative on the internet http://www.butia.co.uk/2008p3.html

In the US perhaps the Butia palms are like getting a mutt female puppy at the animal shelter that then gets loose and comes home knocked up. There seems to be lots of variation on a Butia theme! The good thing is that they can cross with so many other palms. On the Butia Odorato that I get seeds from the fruit shape is a pumpkin but the seed itself is oblong. I don't think they are squishing each close to create the oblong shape since the fruit itself stays very large and round. I think the oblong seed shape came from some stray pollen along the way.

[ErikSJI]

IdolLurker.

Why would it matter if it is the U.S. or South America. There are just as many if not more palms in South America that the Butia is crossing with naturally compared to the United states. In 5 years time I am sure we will find new Butia's out there and slap a new name on it when it has just been cross pollinated and recrossed and recrossed.

With South America having the most varieties of Butia's and its orgin. I would say it is happening on a daily basis of crosses and recrosses.

[Nigel]

In the US perhaps the Butia palms are like getting a mutt female puppy at the animal shelter that then gets loose and comes home knocked up. There seems to be lots of variation on a Butia theme! The good thing is that they can cross with so many other palms. On the Butia Odorato that I get seeds from the fruit shape is a pumpkin but the seed itself is oblong. I don't think they are squishing each close to create the oblong shape since the fruit itself stays very large and round. I think the oblong seed shape came from some stray pollen along the way.

I believe Merrill, or maybe it was somebody else made a study some years ago ( where is he because I miss him ? ) and concluded that a large % were already hybridised.

Your palm is not unusual from what you describe. The pumpkin shape fruit is typical of odorata. The seed is not the same as you find in uruguay and south tip of Brasil, but you can find this same seed and fruit in the area to the north , mostly in cultivation. I am not sure if this palm is a product of cultivation and hybridisation or whether it is an original variation as I never found this type in the wild, only in cultivation or on the roadside. I suspect it was a naturally occurring palm in Brasil long ago and maybe some trees remain,it needs further study using some wild remnant population.