Copernicia Candy

[virtualpalm]

Next up are three different hybrids (or so they seem) that we have in the field (the fourth photo is a closeup of the leaf of the third plant). Any ideas on their parentage?

Jody

Edited September 16, 2011 by virtualpalm

[virtualpalm]

Finally, I wanted to show a couple photos of one of the rarer species for your viewing pleasure. The first is a very nice specimen that we recently sold, and the second is one we have growing in the field.

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

Those 'hybrids" look strikingly familiar, seems like we all have had something like them in our farms and gardens. The most finicky buyers will sniff them out but the unaware buyer will get hood winked and end up with something alien looking.

[virtualpalm]

I have a photo of a nice hybrid that we recently sold that I will post tomorrow.

I almost forgot... here is the promised photo. It is C. x burretiana.

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

I have a photo of a nice hybrid that we recently sold that I will post tomorrow.

I almost forgot... here is the promised photo. It is C. x burretiana.

Jody

Wow that name is a blast from the past. Do you know where we can see the type specimen that defines burretiana?

The palm itself seems to look like a mix with no real obvious character of a speciecs that I recognise. It is another one that could be figured out with DNA but since that is not likly to happen we could just say it may be a Copernicia hybrid, clean it up, and sell it for an old palm price!

Next?

[Mandrew968]

Jody, you don't know where I could find a small Hatian Copernicia, do you? AKA Ekmanii??

[Ken Johnson]

We often talk about palms named after Ekman. Here is the wiki on him. Ekman Bio

[virtualpalm]

Jody, you don't know where I could find a small Hatian Copernicia, do you? AKA Ekmanii??

We have quite a few smaller ones (25 gallon size), but I don't know if Keith wants to sell any. I'll ask him, though.

Jody

[virtualpalm]

Do you know where we can see the type specimen that defines burretiana?

The palm itself seems to look like a mix with no real obvious character of a speciecs that I recognise. It is another one that could be figured out with DNA but since that is not likly to happen we could just say it may be a Copernicia hybrid, clean it up, and sell it for an old palm price!

It is a hybrid of C. macroglossa x hospita that I believe is naturally occurring in habitat and was once thought to be a separate species.

I don't know if it is "the" type specimen (actually, I don't know if hybrids have true type specimens), but Fairchild has "a" specimen online:

http://palmguide.org/sheet.php?sheet=63892

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

Do you know where we can see the type specimen that defines burretiana?

The palm itself seems to look like a mix with no real obvious character of a speciecs that I recognise. It is another one that could be figured out with DNA but since that is not likly to happen we could just say it may be a Copernicia hybrid, clean it up, and sell it for an old palm price!

It is a hybrid of C. macroglossa x hospita that I believe is naturally occurring in habitat and was once thought to be a separate species.

I don't know if it is "the" type specimen (actually, I don't know if hybrids have true type specimens), but Fairchild has "a" specimen online:

http://palmguide.org/sheet.php?sheet=63892

Jody

So how do you ID the palm in the picture?

[bubba]

You are lucky down in real Palm land, where you have so many different rare and mature specimens. Copernicia is one of my favorite. Found this one on a drive-by. I was hoping it was a fallanse but am relatively certain it is a baily. Not that mature baileys are not fantastic but that mezmerizing green of the fallanse. Experts?:

[BS Man about Palms]

Well, I would like to step up to the "ID my Copernicia" esteemed panel!

First is this one that is from the same batch of seeds as Lens. It looked to me as there were 2 types in there, IIRC some had yellow/pale teeth, and some had black teeth...? Mine is the black toothed version..

My leaves don't seem real "flat", so not sure what that means, or different growing conditions in Coastal So Cal.

I am sure if I had more heat, it would be happier. I rarely see temps over 85F here.

[BS Man about Palms]

Then I have a Copernicia suerona. this palm confuses the heck out of me, the more care (water, fert, mulch, etc) I give it, the more it seems to want to rot, or have the center turns brown and seems a half step from pulling the spear!

It appears, if I ingnore it, it grows, albeit slowly...

[BS Man about Palms]

Then lastly, this one. I think a Hospita hybrid... with what? I hope a rigida. But it seems to have the same affliction as the suerona..

yes. I know there are weeds there..

[Ken Johnson]

First is like Len's. Make sure to get the seed. Its a winner!

2nd and 3rd look like hell . Don't spread the seed. Who knows what they are? Its hard enough to tell on a healthy one most of the time.

[trioderob]

any of you guys hate the idea of cross breeding these type of palms on the basis that it will muck up the gene pool and one day ALL you will have is cross breeds ?

Edited September 17, 2011 by trioderob

[Ken Johnson]

any of you guys hate the idea of cross breeding these type of palms on the basis that it will muck up the gene pool and one day ALL you will have is cross breeds ?

TriO, That is what has happened in some other palms. Humans and other animals like palm seeds so they sometimes get back to a cousin removed 364 billion years ago (plus or minus a few).

Nice thing is if we see one we realy like we can develop it to produce edible fruit for a few million humans like we did with the date palm.

Turns out that in Cuba almost all the copenicias HAVE mixed with each other, naturally (if you consider humans part of nature.

[virtualpalm]

any of you guys hate the idea of cross breeding these type of palms on the basis that it will muck up the gene pool and one day ALL you will have is cross breeds ?

The obvious problem in cultivation is that palms set seed on their own, and it is usually not possible to know who the pollen donor was. So seed taken from a spectacular specimen could produce offspring with several different morphologies if there were other species planted within range of the bees that pollinate the female flowers on the specimen in question. The only way to prevent this here in south Florida would be to cover the inflorescence completely to prevent "natural" pollination and then hand-pollinate with the proper pollen. But this is a lot of work and happens almost never. So most nurserymen down here just get what seed they can, grow up the seedlings, and sell those that have the "right" look as that particulalr species, whether it actually is or not.

Jody

[virtualpalm]

Turns out that in Cuba almost all the copenicias HAVE mixed with each other, naturally (if you consider humans part of nature.

I don't think this is necessarily true. It is my understanding that there are populations of some species that are isolated enough from other populations that there are no natural hybrids being produced. Those are obviously the best ones to get pure seed from.

Jody

[virtualpalm]

So how do you ID the palm in the picture?

I honestly don't know. I am simply going on the ID provided by the individual who is purchasing the palm. I haven't had a chance to discuss it with him to see what characteristics he is looking for in the specific hybrids.

Jody

[Ken Johnson]

So how do you ID the palm in the picture?

I honestly don't know. I am simply going on the ID provided by the individual who is purchasing the palm. I haven't had a chance to discuss it with him to see what characteristics he is looking for in the specific hybrids.

Jody

Then I guess unless the buyer has a DNA kit he is just guessing too.

[Ken Johnson]

New candy.

I 'shopped this one for effect.

Name?

[Ken Johnson]

Turns out that in Cuba almost all the copenicias HAVE mixed with each other, naturally (if you consider humans part of nature.

I don't think this is necessarily true. It is my understanding that there are populations of some species that are isolated enough from other populations that there are no natural hybrids being produced. Those are obviously the best ones to get pure seed from.

Jody

I have seen pictures of Silver colored Copernicia that look like hospita in mass with no other Copernicia in the picture. I assume that's why we see some nice examples in cultivation. Same with some other species and surely the Dominican species seem true although I see what looks like berteroana hybrids even at my farm.

When seeds started to be used from Fairchild it seems all bets were off although there have been some fine looking Copernicia propagated from their seed! I notice that not many old macroglosa are hybrid looking but some of the younger ones I have seen are ringers for macroglosa X! Some I have seen will become collectors pieces of the future!

[Ken Johnson]

Eventually some hybrids look like this.

[virtualpalm]

New candy.

I 'shopped this one for effect.

Name?

A hybrid

[Ken Johnson]

A Copernicia macroglosa 12 years old.

[Jeff Searle]

A Copernicia macroglosa 12 years old.

Ken,

Not knowing who's palm this is, or where it's planted, plant care, etc, why so small after growing for 12 years? It should be more like 10' tall.

[Mandrew968]

You are lucky down in real Palm land, where you have so many different rare and mature specimens. Copernicia is one of my favorite. Found this one on a drive-by. I was hoping it was a fallanse but am relatively certain it is a baily. Not that mature baileys are not fantastic but that mezmerizing green of the fallanse. Experts?:

Bubba--this beauty is way too green to have anything to do with a fallaensis. Thanks for the nice photo--I'm a big fan of the "drive-by"!

[Mandrew968]

A Copernicia macroglosa 12 years old.

Ken,

Not knowing who's palm this is, or where it's planted, plant care, etc, why so small after growing for 12 years? It should be more like 10' tall.

Jeff, my Father's neighbor had two Copernicia macroglossas. One was knocked over in Andrew and grew with a desireable bend in it. A famous Copernicia farmer(some of you may know him on here) came by and offered the neighbor a price he couldn't resist. This palm had at least 10 feet of bent trunk(it was a long time ago, but I remember the craine that had to be used to get it out).

Not a couple of months ago, I saw the neighbors and went to talk with them as we do with some of our good neighbors and she showed me the other macroglossa that was not sold. Planted at the same size and time as the other palm(that had been removed at least 8 years ago), however, this plant was not even two feet off of the ground! It looked healthy, for the most part, but it just has not grown--not to say it doesn't put out a new leaf every once in a while. It just goes to show you that under the same conditions, brothers and sisters do not turn out the same...

[virtualpalm]

It just goes to show you that under the same conditions, brothers and sisters do not turn out the same...

I can confirm this with another example. Libby Besse in Sarasota has two of these that were planted at the same time not a dozen feet apart. Last time I was there (which was a few years ago), one of them was at least 14-15 feet tall and the other was not even 3 feet tall. I don't know what happens with some palms to make them grow slower (or faster) than others, but it is not all that uncommon.

Jody

[BS Man about Palms]

Its the Hedyscepe complex at work!!

[sonoranfans]

You are lucky down in real Palm land, where you have so many different rare and mature specimens. Copernicia is one of my favorite. Found this one on a drive-by. I was hoping it was a fallanse but am relatively certain it is a baily. Not that mature baileys are not fantastic but that mezmerizing green of the fallanse. Experts?:

Bubba--this beauty is way too green to have anything to do with a fallaensis. Thanks for the nice photo--I'm a big fan of the "drive-by"!

Yeah its green... but it sure is a pretty Bailey . I'd be ecstatic if my little "bailey type" turned out like that one in 10-12 years!

[Mandrew968]

You are lucky down in real Palm land, where you have so many different rare and mature specimens. Copernicia is one of my favorite. Found this one on a drive-by. I was hoping it was a fallanse but am relatively certain it is a baily. Not that mature baileys are not fantastic but that mezmerizing green of the fallanse. Experts?:

Bubba--this beauty is way too green to have anything to do with a fallaensis. Thanks for the nice photo--I'm a big fan of the "drive-by"!

Yeah its green... but it sure is a pretty Bailey . I'd be ecstatic if my little "bailey type" turned out like that one in 10-12 years!

Sonoranfans, who wouldn't?! What I want to know is why, with such a sweet looking palm, does the owner not remove the other palms in the yard, to replace with niceness?! Is that a queen palm, behind the baileyana?

[sonoranfans]

You are lucky down in real Palm land, where you have so many different rare and mature specimens. Copernicia is one of my favorite. Found this one on a drive-by. I was hoping it was a fallanse but am relatively certain it is a baily. Not that mature baileys are not fantastic but that mezmerizing green of the fallanse. Experts?:

Bubba--this beauty is way too green to have anything to do with a fallaensis. Thanks for the nice photo--I'm a big fan of the "drive-by"!

Yeah its green... but it sure is a pretty Bailey . I'd be ecstatic if my little "bailey type" turned out like that one in 10-12 years!

Sonoranfans, who wouldn't?! What I want to know is why, with such a sweet looking palm, does the owner not remove the other palms in the yard, to replace with niceness?! Is that a queen palm, behind the baileyana?

Yeah, I'd probably remove the queen, but I'd keep the other palms...

[virtualpalm]

In these two photos, it seems clear that C. fallaensis petioles are relatively flat in cross-section, whereas those of C. baileyana are more hemispherical. I don't know if this is a function of the relative sizes of the plants or if this trait might change with age.

I answered my own question... the petioles of C. baileyana do, indeed, flatten as the palm gets larger (see below).

Jody

[virtualpalm]

Going back to the C. alba vs. C. prunifera issue, would anyone be willing to say which species this is?

Jody

[virtualpalm]

Andrew, I happened to be at Fairchild today and took a look at their large C. fallaensis. They all had some level of orange in the petiole, so I think it is safe to rule out that character (presence or absence of orange in the petiole) as being diagnostic. Here is a closeup of the petioles on one of them:

And here is a shot looking up into the crown:

Jody

[Takil-Explorer]

About Ciopernicia in the wild. In Cuba I have seen natural hybrids as well. But something prevents dissapearing species due to hybridisation. And some species are growing isolated from other ones.

Alexander

[Mandrew968]

Andrew, I happened to be at Fairchild today and took a look at their large C. fallaensis. They all had some level of orange in the petiole, so I think it is safe to rule out that character (presence or absence of orange in the petiole) as being diagnostic. Here is a closeup of the petioles on one of them:

And here is a shot looking up into the crown:

Jody

Jody, I too went very recently and only saw one with a little bit of orange(which was not very pronounced)--If you went then you see as well that the amount of orange is very little to none. The second photo you posted shows this very clearly. Now if you are to say that you saw orange, then surely you have to admit the amount of orange is about 10% of what one would find on a pure baileyana...

[Mandrew968]

Going back to the C. alba vs. C. prunifera issue, would anyone be willing to say which species this is?

Jody

Looks like alba...