Official Palm Planting Detail

[MattyB]

As a contractor I'm always looking at blueprints, but mostly the Architectural sheets, which is the sheets that show how the building is built. But occasionally I take a peek at the Landscaping sheets. They're mostly pretty boring plant-wise, but sometimes they are inspiring as far as the layout of the project goes and I try and learn as much as I can by viewing them. There's always a standard detail describing how to plant a tree, shrub, palm, etc. Here's the palm planting detail. Pretty straight forward, but I never got the point of keynote 12, the 3" dia x 3' deep perforated PVC "breather tube" with the grate on the top. Can anyone shed some light on this?

[Got Palms]

Maybe to get water down to the roots? I have done similar with fruit trees but filled pvc with gravel.

[Stevetoad]

Check out the spacing between the leaf scars! That Phoenix must be a rocket!

[pfancy]

yea, they use those on the big bare root dates and fans out here when they put them in. they usually plop these in during the summer so the tubes help w the deep watering/keep them moist til they start rooting

[LJG]

I have these on all my large palms I installed. It does three things really. 1) It allows for venting/gas exchange since it is such a large, newly planted tree - which I am not sure I understand the need and would like to have someone explain the science. 2) It acts as a watering tube once the palm is established - water roots, not soil. 3) A thing that really helps early on is it is can be used as a measuring stick. If you over water and the roots are under water you will know by putting a stick down the hole and seeing how far up the water goes.

[MattyB]

Thanks for the input y'all.

Since this is in a commercial setting I know no one is going to be monitoring the water level in the tube to see if they have to water less or suck some out if needed. But the deep watering thing makes the most sense, especially if they put a bubbler by the tree and keep that watering berm around it.

For established trees, you can buy product that is a 2" diameter perforated pipe with a point at one end and a hard cap at the other for driving into the ground next to trees. You then run your dripper down the tube for that deep watering.

I'm basically watering all of my trees the same way, but I just skip the tube and puncture a deep hole in the ground, at each drip emitter, with a digging bar. I drive it repeatedly into the moist ground and wiggle it around, expanding the hole, going deeper and deeper until I hit the rock below. My drippers are delivering water directly to the root zone, with no surface watering needed. They love it.

[LJG]

Those root zone water systems stink long term Matt. After time the roots destroy them. Great for starting stuff, but not long term in my opinion. Hunter makes some nice ones but they are not cheap.

[virtualpalm]

As a contractor I'm always looking at blueprints, but mostly the Architectural sheets, which is the sheets that show how the building is built. But occasionally I take a peek at the Landscaping sheets. They're mostly pretty boring plant-wise, but sometimes they are inspiring as far as the layout of the project goes and I try and learn as much as I can by viewing them. There's always a standard detail describing how to plant a tree, shrub, palm, etc. Here's the palm planting detail. Pretty straight forward, but I never got the point of keynote 12, the 3" dia x 3' deep perforated PVC "breather tube" with the grate on the top. Can anyone shed some light on this?

As a landscape contractor who looks at a LOT of landscaping plans, that tube is unnecessary/superfluous... at least here in south Florida where we typically have well-drained soil conditions.

Jody

Edited February 3, 2012 by virtualpalm

[Jastin]

I have poor draining soil and they help out a lot during those heavy rains because I can suck the water out. Since roots only go where water and oxygen are I'd like to think that the roots would go deeper if there is oxygen all the way down to the base of the rootball.

I do agree that they are sometimes useless after a whild due to roots getting in them but a great visual for stagnate water, watering deep, and getting O2 down to the bottom

[paulgila]

they also specify that the fronds should be tied til the end of the "maintainence period."

seems to me that don hodel did a study on that & showed it had no real benefit for the plant.

[LJG]

they also specify that the fronds should be tied til the end of the "maintainence period."

seems to me that don hodel did a study on that & showed it had no real benefit for the plant.

I would assume it is a great benefit when transplanting something so big if it happens during our Santa Ana's for example. A SA can kill a newly planted palm pretty quickly. It might be anecdotal, but until the palm has the root mass to take it the water required to replace that leaving, I would tie it up to be safe.

[paulgila]

well if you feel that your little hunch has more merit than painstaking scientific research then knock yerself out.

[LJG]

Yeah Paul because science is never wrong. I would trust more stuff told to me by the experienced hobbyist over a lab coat in this hobby. In most cases it is the hobbyist actually growing and evolving. I am not referring to Hodel in particular but just scientist in general - and I have my degree in Bio Science.

By the way, can you reference what you stated?

[MattyB]

I have my degree in Degree anti-persperant.

[paulgila]

i actually agree with you,len,to a certain extent,but in this case i believe they did field trials. its been a while since i read about this,i will have to look thru my 6' high stack of old palm society journals.

[paulgila]

http://ucanr.org/sites/UrbanHort/files/80076.pdf

here it is.

[MattyB]

In yer face!

[LJG]

http://ucanr.org/sites/UrbanHort/files/80076.pdf

here it is.

The key thing here in the report is the "survival of small, juvenile Canary Island date palms". The things were 15 gallon sized. Of course there is no need to tie up leaves. I would still recommend it for the large trunking palms as the root mass to palm head is much less then on smaller palms. So I am not sure you can equate these results to the same ones on large trunking palms. Too me it makes logical sense that less transpiration happens tied up and in the case of transplanting a large CIDP during a Santa Ana, I would guarantee less risk of death from drying out. While large palm tree movers don't wear lab coats, they have witnessed their own results and many choose to tie up leaves. For them death it is a difference of $10,000. As far as cutting off leaves prior to moving I never really do it because many long time palm growers and movers think the palm will abort what it cannot support so it is better to let the plant decide. I know many others disagree, but from what I have seen I go with maybe cutting just some of the lowers and let the palm do the rest. To each their own.

[DoomsDave]

Interesting question.

I once asked a palm installer about this (we were deposing him in an un-palm related matter) and he said that the drainpipe makes it easy to see (or smell) if anything bad is going on in the planting hole.

Holes don't always drain as well as they're supposed to, particularly in commercial projects with compacted soil, and/or where holes were dug by someone else, and/or where there are specific constraints on where, exactly the holes are going to be. (In other words, if you dig a bad hole, you can't just try another spot like a home gardener can.) The big concern is the whiff of sulfur that's the result of anaerobic decay that can take place below the soil surface, which can cause deadly root burn. Dates don't usually die from drowning, since they can take floods. They usually croak from sulfur root burn.

I didn't ask to see his white coat . . .

What do they do if they smell the sulfur? That depends on the circumstances. Usually, they try to drill holes to improve the drainage, if they can do that without drilling through underground wires, pipes, etc.

[Stevetoad]

1328322586' post=510674]

Interesting question.

I once asked a palm installer about this (we were deposing him in an un-palm related matter) and he said that the drainpipe makes it easy to see (or smell) if anything bad is going on in the planting hole.

Holes don't always drain as well as they're supposed to, particularly in commercial projects with compacted soil, and/or where holes were dug by someone else, and/or where there are specific constraints on where, exactly the holes are going to be. (In other words, if you dig a bad hole, you can't just try another spot like a home gardener can.) The big concern is the whiff of sulfur that's the result of anaerobic decay that can take place below the soil surface, which can cause deadly root burn. Dates don't usually die from drowning, since they can take floods. They usually croak from sulfur root burn.

I didn't ask to see his white coat . . .

What do they do if they smell the sulfur? That depends on the circumstances. Usually, they try to drill holes to improve the drainage, if they can do that without drilling through underground wires, pipes, etc.

Good information Dave

[paulgila]

http://ucanr.org/sites/UrbanHort/files/80076.pdf

here it is.

The key thing here in the report is the "survival of small, juvenile Canary Island date palms". The things were 15 gallon sized. Of course there is no need to tie up leaves. I would still recommend it for the large trunking palms as the root mass to palm head is much less then on smaller palms. So I am not sure you can equate these results to the same ones on large trunking palms. Too me it makes logical sense that less transpiration happens tied up and in the case of transplanting a large CIDP during a Santa Ana, I would guarantee less risk of death from drying out. While large palm tree movers don't wear lab coats, they have witnessed their own results and many choose to tie up leaves. For them death it is a difference of $10,000. As far as cutting off leaves prior to moving I never really do it because many long time palm growers and movers think the palm will abort what it cannot support so it is better to let the plant decide. I know many others disagree, but from what I have seen I go with maybe cutting just some of the lowers and let the palm do the rest. To each their own.

ok len dont have a cow. i can see your mind is made up so theres no use discussing it further.

[LJG]

http://ucanr.org/sites/UrbanHort/files/80076.pdf

here it is.

The key thing here in the report is the "survival of small, juvenile Canary Island date palms". The things were 15 gallon sized. Of course there is no need to tie up leaves. I would still recommend it for the large trunking palms as the root mass to palm head is much less then on smaller palms. So I am not sure you can equate these results to the same ones on large trunking palms. Too me it makes logical sense that less transpiration happens tied up and in the case of transplanting a large CIDP during a Santa Ana, I would guarantee less risk of death from drying out. While large palm tree movers don't wear lab coats, they have witnessed their own results and many choose to tie up leaves. For them death it is a difference of $10,000. As far as cutting off leaves prior to moving I never really do it because many long time palm growers and movers think the palm will abort what it cannot support so it is better to let the plant decide. I know many others disagree, but from what I have seen I go with maybe cutting just some of the lowers and let the palm do the rest. To each their own.

ok len dont have a cow. i can see your mind is made up so theres no use discussing it further.

Who's having a cow? I am simply discussing. Are you do for another trip to Bali?

[paulgila]

its "due" & yes i am!

[velutina]

I have seen these "breather tubes" used on planting of large Washingtonia filifera near my house.

[tjwalters]

its "due" & yes i am!

It's "it's," and I have a PhD (Post-hole digger)

[LJG]

its "due" & yes i am!

It's "it's," and I have a PhD (Post-hole digger)

Haha. Nice Paul. Unfortunately I did not catch it.

[MattyB]

I saw this detail today. It specifically describes the tube as an "observation tube" and they are to siphon out any excess water to prevent root rot. Hmm. Notice how the planting hole is dug so that the bottom slants towards the tube.

[MattyB]

Another interesting detail. Deep bubbler. Len, is this the equipment that you say will eventually get gobbled up by the roots?

[LJG]

I saw this detail today. It specifically describes the tube as an "observation tube" and they are to siphon out any excess water to prevent root rot. Hmm. Notice how the planting hole is dug so that the bottom slants towards the tube.

The way you observe is by putting a stick down there.

Matt, yes. Eventually. Where water escapes, roots enter and grow. The diagram kind of looks like the Hunter one.