Dypsis ambositrae

[edric]

The first fully opened new leaf, opened two weeks ahead of the D. sp. betefaka, about February 15th, since then both have a new spear, but surprisingly enough, as fast as the betefaka grows, the abositrae is leading the pace, just shows you what proper lighting can do, even though it was 94.1 two weeks ago,(they stop growing around that temperature), Easter sunday was a high of 77, the sun is stronger this year, than it usually is in July, before that, I already had to move all 300 of them from spot to spot, now I'm frantic, (or lunatic) I'm not sure which, trying to avoid the hot spot's, before you ask why I don't drive stakes, a use shade cloth, don't bother, I'm left handed, and only have minimal use of that hand, (if I don't take enough medication I can't even walk), that said, I've already let the Hyophorbe indica get burned, and lost over half of them, Ed

[Alberto]

Nice ambositrae!I have a few grown from seeds. How old is yours?

[edric]

Nice ambositrae!I have a few grown from seeds. How old is yours?

Thanks Alberto, A little over eight years old I think now, Ed

[MattyB]

Hey Ed, any grey ramenta on the undersides of those leaves?

[edric]

Hey Ed, any grey ramenta on the undersides of those leaves?

Hi Matty, nice to hear from you, thought even you were mad at me, for running my big mouth, sure wish I had some people skills, ( diplomacy), anyhow, no same on top as on the bottom, thanks, Ed

[MattyB]

I don't even know what you're talking about ed so what does that say about my people skills? anyway there seems to be a couple of different "real ambositrae" going around and I'm just trying to figure them out.

[DoomsDave]

I don't even know what you're talking about ed so what does that say about my people skills? anyway there seems to be a couple of different "real ambositrae" going around and I'm just trying to figure them out.

TWO REAL AMBOSITRAES?

tell me more tell me more . . .

[richnorm]

I don't even know what you're talking about ed so what does that say about my people skills? anyway there seems to be a couple of different "real ambositrae" going around and I'm just trying to figure them out.

Looks like one of the tristichous ones (with brown ramenta). I'm assuming yours is also tristichous , is that right Matty? Probably has sharp edges to the petiole channel too I'd be picking.

cheers

Richard

[edric]

I don't even know what you're talking about ed so what does that say about my people skills? anyway there seems to be a couple of different "real ambositrae" going around and I'm just trying to figure them out.

Hi Matty, oh I got in a big argument last night about the D. marojejyi, on the thread Mad Fox, I said it was an understory palm, and was going by my knowledge of palms, knowing that at maturity it would not reach more than 18 feet or so, so I looked on http://palmweb.org/ and turns out, J. Dransfield calls it a palm of the undergrowth, well everyone including Dean agreed with Nick, that J. Dransfield didn't know, because he had never grown one, but I can't seem to understand what doing a fine job at growing a 6 or 8 foot specimen, has to do with it's elevation at maturity, anyhow, is your ambositrae not the same as mine? Thanks, Ed

[Dypsisdean]

I don't even know what you're talking about ed so what does that say about my people skills? anyway there seems to be a couple of different "real ambositrae" going around and I'm just trying to figure them out.

Hi Matty, oh I got in a big argument last night about the D. marojejyi, on the thread Mad Fox, I said it was an understory palm, and was going by my knowledge of palms, knowing that at maturity it would not reach more than 18 feet or so, so I looked on http://palmweb.org/ and turns out, J. Dransfield calls it a palm of the undergrowth, well everyone including Dean agreed with Nick, that J. Dransfield didn't know, because he had never grown one, but I can't seem to understand what doing a fine job at growing a 6 or 8 foot specimen, has to do with it's elevation at maturity, anyhow, is your ambositrae not the same as mine? Thanks, Ed

Please Ed - we were discussing, not arguing.

I think you misunderstood the whole discussion. My point (and I believe Nick's as well ) was not that JD, or botanists at Kew, didn't know how tall a palm becomes (which they certainly do), nor that they don't know how and where it grows in habitat (which they do), but that local growers would know better how to plant and what kind of exposure to give a particular palm in a particular climate zone. For example, JD doesn't know the climate zones and conditions in SoCal, or how a specific palm has been handling these specific conditions through the years. And I think JD would be the first to tell you that. But SoCal growers do.

In the case of the Mad Fox, to surmise that since JD calls it understory means that it should be planted in the shadier positions in a SoCal garden, does not necessarily follow, and in fact does not appear to be good advice. And I think most of those growing this palm agree.

This is why PalmTalk is such a valuable resource. If we planted palms dependent only on where and how the scientists told us it grew in habitat, we would be killing a lot more palms. Granted, it may be a place to start. But after years of experience, those interested in growing palms know what works.

For example, scientists will tell you Howeas grow in full sun, but Howeas may die in full sun in many areas of inland SoCal - too hot and dry. And many palms from the tropics, described as "understory" by the scientists, will likewise die in the understory of many SoCal gardens - not enough warmth year round. But give a Howea some shade in inland SoCal, or an understory palm some sun in coastal SoCal, and they will survive. Scientists from Kew are not familiar with these nuances - mainly because they don't care like growers do. That is not their area of study. To grow palms in marginal areas, outside of their comfort zones, requires tricks of the trade that local growers discover only after years of trial and error.

[edric]

I don't even know what you're talking about ed so what does that say about my people skills? anyway there seems to be a couple of different "real ambositrae" going around and I'm just trying to figure them out.

Hi Matty, oh I got in a big argument last night about the D. marojejyi, on the thread Mad Fox, I said it was an understory palm, and was going by my knowledge of palms, knowing that at maturity it would not reach more than 18 feet or so, so I looked on http://palmweb.org/ and turns out, J. Dransfield calls it a palm of the undergrowth, well everyone including Dean agreed with Nick, that J. Dransfield didn't know, because he had never grown one, but I can't seem to understand what doing a fine job at growing a 6 or 8 foot specimen, has to do with it's elevation at maturity, anyhow, is your ambositrae not the same as mine? Thanks, Ed

Please Ed - we were discussing, not arguing.

I think you misunderstood the whole discussion. My point (and I believe Nick's as well ) was not that JD, or botanists at Kew, didn't know how tall a palm becomes (which they certainly do), nor that they don't know how and where it grows in habitat (which they do), but that local growers would know better how to plant and what kind of exposure to give a particular palm in a particular climate zone. For example, JD doesn't know the climate zones and conditions in SoCal, or how a specific palm has been handling these specific conditions through the years. And I think JD would be the first to tell you that. But SoCal growers do.

In the case of the Mad Fox, to surmise that since JD calls it understory means that it should be planted in the shadier positions in a SoCal garden, does not necessarily follow, and in fact does not appear to be good advice. And I think most of those growing this palm agree.

This is why PalmTalk is such a valuable resource. If we planted palms dependent only on where and how the scientists told us it grew in habitat, we would be killing a lot more palms. Granted, it may be a place to start. But after years of experience, those interested in growing palms know what works.

For example, scientists will tell you Howeas grow in full sun, but Howeas may die in full sun in many areas of inland SoCal - too hot and dry. And many palms from the tropics, described as "understory" by the scientists, will likewise die in the understory of many SoCal gardens - not enough warmth year round. But give a Howea some shade in inland SoCal, or an understory palm some sun in coastal SoCal, and they will survive. Scientists from Kew are not familiar with these nuances - mainly because they don't care like growers do. That is not their area of study. To grow palms in marginal areas, outside of their comfort zones, requires tricks of the trade that local growers discover only after years of trial and error.

Hi Dean, like I said when I responded to your post in that thread, I already agreed with all of that, John Dransfield did not call it an understory palm, I did, He called it, "a palm of the undergrowth" which I disagree with, that IMO is incorrect, and would indicate what you have already stated twice, and what I agreed with from the beginning, thank you all for your patients, Ed

[MattyB]

Regarding the Dypsis ambositrae:

I've been told by a few people that the palm I was under the impression as the "real ambositrae", may not be and that there is another, very similar looking palm, that is in fact the real deal. My ambositrae look like yours Ed, and have no ramenta on the undersides of the leaflets. I believe that the book, POM, describes "grey ramenta" for Dypsis ambositrae, so those who say that there's another round of "fakeys" out there may be correct. They all look alike when small and just going from memory and overall pictures I don't have enough info yet to say that there's two different palms. I have another batch of "Dypsis ambositrae" that are about 1-2 gallon size and from what I remember they look just like my larger, in-ground ones did when they were small.

[DippyD]

Matt, can you post a pic of your smaller ones, where did your purchase those?

[MattyB]

I don't have a pic but they look just like Ed's. I had a lot of them, from two different sources, Pious Palms/Bill, and Ortanique. I have only 3 left and I don't know from whence they came.

[edric]

Regarding the Dypsis ambositrae:

I've been told by a few people that the palm I was under the impression as the "real ambositrae", may not be and that there is another, very similar looking palm, that is in fact the real deal. My ambositrae look like yours Ed, and have no ramenta on the undersides of the leaflets. I believe that the book, POM, describes "grey ramenta" for Dypsis ambositrae, so those who say that there's another round of "fakeys" out there may be correct. They all look alike when small and just going from memory and overall pictures I don't have enough info yet to say that there's two different palms. I have another batch of "Dypsis ambositrae" that are about 1-2 gallon size and from what I remember they look just like my larger, in-ground ones did when they were small.

Hi Matty, it says Description

Clustering palm in tufts of 2-3, sometimes (Beentje & Andriampaniry 4615) appearing solitary when in regularly burnt terrain. STEM 3-7 m tall, c. 12 cm diam.; internodes 10-20 cm, pale brown to grey (green and ringed when young), nodal scars 0.5 cm, grey; wood hard; base of stem slightly wider, with some surface roots; slight bulge in upper trunk in one older tree; crownshaft pale waxy grey-green. LEAVES 7-11, spiral, gracefully arching, with stiff leaflets; sheath 64-103 cm, pale green with a white bloom, ligules 2 cm; petiole 9-30 cm long, 3-6 x 2.2-4.5 cm diam., channelled with soft edges; rachis 2.1-2.8 m, in mid-leaf 2.2-3.5 cm wide, green; leaflets 74-84 on each side of the rachis, grouped only very slightly in 2s-5s, in one plane, the leaflets on opposite sides of the rachis at an angle of 90°, stiff with only the apices pendulous, apices attenuate, unequally bifid, the proximal 69-144 x 0.3-1.8 cm, (first interval c. 29 cm, more distal 3.5-9 cm), median 89-114 x 2.3-3 cm (leaflet interval 0.2-2 cm, group interval 2-3.5 cm), distal 18-58 x 0.8-2.5 cm, abaxially with distant tufts of pale grey ramenta over almost whole length of midrib, with scattered scales very faint to invisible, main veins faint, with only the midrib very prominent on the adaxial surface. INFLORESCENCE interfoliar, branched to 2 (3 in a few cases) orders, with the basal part within the closed sheath, the prophyll hidden and the peduncular bract spreading from the top of the sheath; peduncle 68-123 cm long, distally 9 x 5 cm diam., green, glabrous, curved outside the sheath; prophyll c. 91 cm, borne at c. 32 cm above the base of the peduncle, 11.5 cm wide, narrowly 2-winged; peduncular bract deciduous, about 80 cm, beaked (c. 5 cm) and closed distally, pale waxy grey, inserted c. 48 cm from the base of the peduncle; open peduncular bract 14 x 7 cm; rachis 84-102 cm, with 23-24 branched and 14-17 unbranched first order branches, in a few cases some of the proximal branches branched twice more, but not more than 3 in the entire inflorescence; all axes green with white bloom; first order branches proximally 2-3 x 0.5-1 cm; rachillae 14-32 cm, 3-4 mm diam., with flattish base and distant to rather dense triads, hardly sunken in slight pits with entire, obtuse or acute bracts. STAMINATE FLOWERS with sepals 2.2-2.5 x 1.6-2.2 mm, keeled, gibbous at the base, broadly ovate, obtuse, the margins membranous; petals connate for 0.2-0.5 mm, the free lobes 2.8-3 x 2.8-3.2 mm, ovate or elliptic, acute, sometimes with hooded apex; stamens 6, uniseriate, the filaments connate for 0.2-0.5 mm, 2.8-3.2 mm long, anthers 2.1-2.3 x 1 mm; pistillode 2.2-2.3 mm, columnar, 0.8-1 mm diam. PISTILLATE FLOWERS with sepals 2.4-3 x 3-4.1 mm, broadly ovate, rounded; petals hardly connate at the base, 3.5-4.1 x 4-5 mm, imbricate but for the apiculate apex, broadly ovate, concave; staminodes 6, 0.3-1.6 mm, narrow and flat; ovary asymmetrical, 2.7-4.8 x 2.8-4 mm, with indistinct pyramidal stigmas. FRUIT only known from carbonized remnants, c. 14 x 10.5 mm, possibly with fibrous endocarp, possibly with ruminate endosperm. (J. Dransfield and H. Beentje. 1995)

Only most of the midrib, but not the pinnae, this photo shows id best, courtesy Palmpedia, I'm thinking once thy get old enough, it will show up, Jeff's is the same species as ours, yes? Ed for a better view http://www2.palmpedia.net/wiki/File:DypAmb1.jpg

[MattyB]

The palm pictured in that Palmpedia photo above looks exactly like my larger palms that I'm growing, one of which came from Jeff Marcus.

I think the hint that this palm may not actually be the real Dypsis ambositrae is this description of the leaflets:

abaxially with distant tufts of pale grey ramenta over almost whole length of midrib (of leaflet), with scattered scales very faint to invisible, main veins faint, with only the midrib very prominent on the adaxial surface.

Why do our Dypsis ambositrae have no "tufts of pale grey ramenta"?

[edric]

The palm pictured in that Palmpedia photo above looks exactly like my larger palms that I'm growing, one of which came from Jeff Marcus.

I think the hint that this palm may not actually be the real Dypsis ambositrae is this description of the leaflets:

abaxially with distant tufts of pale grey ramenta over almost whole length of midrib (of leaflet), with scattered scales very faint to invisible, main veins faint, with only the midrib very prominent on the adaxial surface.

Why do our Dypsis ambositrae have no "tufts of pale grey ramenta"?

I see, plus yours is old enough, is it not to show such, is it not? Ed

[palmcurry]

Maybe it's a humidity/ moisture thing? Maybe it's too dry here?

[MattyB]

I don't think humidity will affect ramenta that much.

[DippyD]

I have several and here's what I have seen, the palms that we have seen come through rancho Soledad don't appear to be the same palm, however I purchased smaller plants from jd Anderson and just got 4 more from jeff Marcus. The smaller palms to me, are the same, I know I'm crazy they don't look the same at all but however the same batch I have, pogobob planted one in his front yard which contains the ramenta, my smaller palms which look just like what Ed posted are turning out to look the same as the Soledad palms, my palms get much more sun than bobs palm and looks completely different, Ron lawyer planted a small one in his front yard which also appears the same as this smaller palm which now is turning out to look more like the Soledad palm as well,

It may be a morphing dypsis. Maybe Ron, bob, and myself can get a photo or two and post it

[richnorm]

The palm pictured in that Palmpedia photo above looks exactly like my larger palms that I'm growing, one of which came from Jeff Marcus.

I think the hint that this palm may not actually be the real Dypsis ambositrae is this description of the leaflets:

abaxially with distant tufts of pale grey ramenta over almost whole length of midrib (of leaflet), with scattered scales very faint to invisible, main veins faint, with only the midrib very prominent on the adaxial surface.

Why do our Dypsis ambositrae have no "tufts of pale grey ramenta"?

It's not just the ramenta colour. Consider also the tristichous leaf pattern, lack of petiole, colour of petiole/rachis which persists in older(trunking) plants, number of leaves held, sharp edges of petiole channel, leaflet tips, ligules mentioned in the description .......and so on. Of course all these differences could still be variation, the big one will be when they flower. Ambo is meant to be inter-foliar (between the leaves). Can't be long before one flowers in cultivation.

[DippyD]

Rich will you post a photo of yours, I'm uploading mine all in various stages from trunking to smaller 1 gals, and all different sources. I know there's a ton of people growing this palm in SoCal, Gary, Len, bill how's are yours doing and what do they look like

[edric]

I have several and here's what I have seen, the palms that we have seen come through rancho Soledad don't appear to be the same palm, however I purchased smaller plants from jd Anderson and just got 4 more from jeff Marcus. The smaller palms to me, are the same, I know I'm crazy they don't look the same at all but however the same batch I have, pogobob planted one in his front yard which contains the ramenta, my smaller palms which look just like what Ed posted are turning out to look the same as the Soledad palms, my palms get much more sun than bobs palm and looks completely different, Ron lawyer planted a small one in his front yard which also appears the same as this smaller palm which now is turning out to look more like the Soledad palm as well,

It may be a morphing dypsis. Maybe Ron, bob, and myself can get a photo or two and post it

Hi, I just thought I would add that my little 33 month old specimens are given too much sun like in a few of the photos I posted last Aug. they completely lose all of the red color that you see in them on Palmpedia, and in a matter of weeks are solid green, Ed

[DippyD]

Ed,

that may be the thing, im not sure how much sun matts is getting but i know the few around here that seem to be a "different palm" tend to be in more shade. here are some that i just recieved from floribunda last week, one of my larger ones and a smaller one that keeps having fights with the rabbits and just seems like he cant win.. you can see on the smaller more juvinille plants the red is much more brilliant than on the larger palm. wether this palm is actually ambositrae or not... wait for a flower seems like its becoming the most popular answer around here. differnt climates humidity, sun exposure seems like its playing a reptative part in trying to figure out what we are all growing with all the dypsis. is robusta white stem is marojyjei coursii is black stem a baronii or are they all so varient and under different conditions your palm will look different.

[edric]

Ed,

that may be the thing, im not sure how much sun matts is getting but i know the few around here that seem to be a "different palm" tend to be in more shade. here are some that i just recieved from floribunda last week, one of my larger ones and a smaller one that keeps having fights with the rabbits and just seems like he cant win.. you can see on the smaller more juvinille plants the red is much more brilliant than on the larger palm. wether this palm is actually ambositrae or not... wait for a flower seems like its becoming the most popular answer around here. differnt climates humidity, sun exposure seems like its playing a reptative part in trying to figure out what we are all growing with all the dypsis. is robusta white stem is marojyjei coursii is black stem a baronii or are they all so varient and under different conditions your palm will look different.

Ben, the conditions I don't think are enough to (once they are fairly mature) to make them indistinguishable as a species, but a var. perhaps, but to use one of Deans terms, (which is clasic of many of the plumose variety), is they morph, start out with standard two rows of pinnae, and get a little more plumose, with each frond that emerges, Ed

[richnorm]

Rich will you post a photo of yours, I'm uploading mine all in various stages from trunking to smaller 1 gals, and all different sources. I know there's a ton of people growing this palm in SoCal, Gary, Len, bill how's are yours doing and what do they look like

Here's my biggest, getting a little bump in the crownshaft now and a couple of rings of trunk. The smaller ones behind are the same age.

[DippyD]

Rich,

Those are the same palms I have I took photos and had to run out so hadn't had time to post them, my largest seems to be about 6months to a year ahead of your largest, like I said I will post them as soon as I return from chuckecheeses...

Ed, rich just posted what your palms will look like in a few more years, and I believe will end up being what matt has and all the others the "other type"

Here's another question same genre different variation once the palm flowers it potentially be the same flower correct? And if it turns out not to be the "true ambo" maybe we are going back to plumosa

[DippyD]

Alright spare with me trying to do this Mobil and its a lil slo here is a over all shot of my largest

[DippyD]

This is a little older shot and has opened up a couple new fronds since but shows a little color

[Shon]

Nice lookin garden Rich.

[LJG]

Most these Ambo's are growing into a prettier Dypsis "bef" type plant. The true Ambo's hand collected by Bill and Pete and germinated in 2006 are turning out to be a much slower growing plant then these other things.

[edric]

Wow, both you guys have some beautiful palms, and to hold that much color in that much light, no matter what it turns out being called, I agree with Gary L. that you just couldn't have too many of these, Ed

[DippyD]

ok here we go..... here are some more photos of the largest palm...

[DippyD]

here is what you get if you purchase ambositrae from jeff marcus, i just got these a couple weeks ago... if its the same palm spectacular if its not spectacular, this looks very similar to your palm ed

[DippyD]

and that palm has turned out to be what my larger one is, like i said my palm gets sun ALL day long from 6am to 6pm 24/7,

[edric]

here is what you get if you purchase ambositrae from jeff marcus, i just got these a couple weeks ago... if its the same palm spectacular if its not spectacular, this looks very similar to your palm ed

I sure think all these are the same, but you'll have to wait and see what Matty, Len or Mat in SD have to say, btw Mat in SD, have you been watching through all of this? Ed

[richnorm]

Most these Ambo's are growing into a prettier Dypsis "bef" type plant. The true Ambo's hand collected by Bill and Pete and germinated in 2006 are turning out to be a much slower growing plant then these other things.

Len I agree, these are very much like Slick Willy. One thing about some ambo seeds collected by Bill and Pete that I read in an earlier post was that they didn't actually collect the seeds themselves but rather some locals were sent out for some and came back with a motley collection. Could these be the same seeds you are talking about? If so they were not collected in the presence of Bill and Pete and may have been picked up off the ground. I will try and find the post.

cheers

Richard

[LJG]

Most these Ambo's are growing into a prettier Dypsis "bef" type plant. The true Ambo's hand collected by Bill and Pete and germinated in 2006 are turning out to be a much slower growing plant then these other things.

Len I agree, these are very much like Slick Willy. One thing about some ambo seeds collected by Bill and Pete that I read in an earlier post was that they didn't actually collect the seeds themselves but rather some locals were sent out for some and came back with a motley collection. Could these be the same seeds you are talking about? If so they were not collected in the presence of Bill and Pete and may have been picked up off the ground. I will try and find the post.

cheers

Richard

I remember Pete showing me pictures of the trees and some locals selling them the seed. Well, at least I recall that but this was a few years back when I bought them. Jeff Searle is close to Pete, so I wonder if he can ask and get the full story.

[richnorm]

Most these Ambo's are growing into a prettier Dypsis "bef" type plant. The true Ambo's hand collected by Bill and Pete and germinated in 2006 are turning out to be a much slower growing plant then these other things.

Len I agree, these are very much like Slick Willy. One thing about some ambo seeds collected by Bill and Pete that I read in an earlier post was that they didn't actually collect the seeds themselves but rather some locals were sent out for some and came back with a motley collection. Could these be the same seeds you are talking about? If so they were not collected in the presence of Bill and Pete and may have been picked up off the ground. I will try and find the post.

cheers

Richard

I remember Pete showing me pictures of the trees and some locals selling them the seed. Well, at least I recall that but this was a few years back when I bought them. Jeff Searle is close to Pete, so I wonder if he can ask and get the full story.

Not sure if this is the post that I remember but in my mind it was clear that others collected the seed. Not so explicit in this thread but Jeff should know as he was there. See post 86 onwards, maybe my memory is playing tricks on me!

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=9478&hl=ambositrae&st=80

Edited April 13, 2012 by richnorm

[LJG]

Rich, that was the collection because I have the original tag stating April 2006. Those plants I have from Pete are certainly slower. I showed you pictures offline a few times showing the size difference already. Many of these Ambo's going around I just have this gut feeling will turn out to be something else and not the real deal. But thats just my hypothesis. Do yours have slightly grouped leaflets in 2 - 5s? My two larger ones (Rancho Soledad plant and Jungle Music plant) do not, but that might just come with age. Also, I guess it could just be crazy variation like in many other Dypsis to define the differences we see. The only thing we can do is grow them and see what happens.

Reading that thread we hear Clayton and Mikey talking about how slow that plant is for them. Marcus said the same thing about those collected by Bill and Pete. Mine grew faster then Jeffs as I compared mine to his plants a while back, but that could be explained by where they come from.