Dypsis ambositrae

[Kennybenjamin]

Most these Ambo's are growing into a prettier Dypsis "bef" type plant. The true Ambo's hand collected by Bill and Pete and germinated in 2006 are turning out to be a much slower growing plant then these other things.

I think this is possibly a good hypothesis, certainly in my experience.

Edric, while I think your theory on the gentics has a lot of merit it raises some questions for me? Are you talking about genetic variation amongst seeds off the same plant or variation between plants?

I have two double planted specimens and it seems very coincidental and lucky that the two seeds with good genetics were put into the same pot and the two without such good genetics were put into a different pot. Both plants (pots) have been through the same hands and channels before arriving at my place... Not sure if this next part supports my theory or not but... from memory they looked identicle. I can trace them back about 3 steps before arriving to me, unfortunately not back to seed collection though.

Maybe this is just a coincidence but I believe them to be different plants, and think that the person who orginally double planted them in their pots was aware of this even though one was not named???

Just my thoughts

The infloresence will be interesting to see!!

[Kennybenjamin]

To me both your photos are different than what we are posting, I'm not seeing the same colors, new spear are red and there is little or no color on yours, the older leaves will even hold the color but like matty said the turn rusty color. Hard to tell, but I'm sticking with a different palm, maybe get a few closer shots of both palms

Just ducked out for a few clower shots, yes not much colour on the spear but I do think the same palm... some in this thread also show less colour than others. Sort of wish mine did have that nice red spear!! I could not get them in focus but this palm has just started to display the ramenta under the leaves.. need to lear to use camera better!!

Yes Edric, you have a point there... I agree that maybe genetics is playing a part here...maybe

I like it what ever it is

Hi Kenny, it's apparent that the sun where you live is somewhat intense, like here, plant a shade tree a little to the west, the sun sets in the west in Aus.? yes, and all of the color will appear, but how far, and how tall can be tricky, but this species is very tolerant of many conditions, unlike betefaka, and ovobontsia, which both get scales in to little light here, not to mention the betefaka gets leaf rust, but regular spray of Neem oil takes care of that, Ed

Edric, nice to converse with you!! While very close to each other my larger and more robust palm gets slightly later afternoon sun than my smaller, slower one. Both however recieve HOT sun for most of the day! I have a tree that blocks the late afternoon sun but the damage has been done by then... I am not too concerned about the sun damage to the smaller one, I am sure it will adjust one day.

No betefaka but my ovobontsira or "dark mealy bug" is currently in full shade and is slow but a very very nice palm... one of my favourites!!!

Cheers

[DippyD]

To me both your photos are different than what we are posting, I'm not seeing the same colors, new spear are red and there is little or no color on yours, the older leaves will even hold the color but like matty said the turn rusty color. Hard to tell, but I'm sticking with a different palm, maybe get a few closer shots of both palms

Just ducked out for a few clower shots, yes not much colour on the spear but I do think the same palm... some in this thread also show less colour than others. Sort of wish mine did have that nice red spear!! I could not get them in focus but this palm has just started to display the ramenta under the leaves.. need to learn to use camera better!!

Yes Edric, you have a point there... I agree that maybe genetics is playing a part here...maybe

I like it what ever it is

Whatever it is it's nice, the crown looks to have the same color but also seems to have a wider internode between each leaf, maybe growing in a bit more shade than some, maybe it's something in the hetermorpha onily with a side of baronii and quarter ambo

[Kennybenjamin]

To me both your photos are different than what we are posting, I'm not seeing the same colors, new spear are red and there is little or no color on yours, the older leaves will even hold the color but like matty said the turn rusty color. Hard to tell, but I'm sticking with a different palm, maybe get a few closer shots of both palms

Just ducked out for a few clower shots, yes not much colour on the spear but I do think the same palm... some in this thread also show less colour than others. Sort of wish mine did have that nice red spear!! I could not get them in focus but this palm has just started to display the ramenta under the leaves.. need to learn to use camera better!!

Yes Edric, you have a point there... I agree that maybe genetics is playing a part here...maybe

I like it what ever it is

Whatever it is it's nice, the crown looks to have the same color but also seems to have a wider internode between each leaf, maybe growing in a bit more shade than some, maybe it's something in the hetermorpha onily with a side of baronii and quarter ambo

Dippy, I have all of those growing here and I think your description is pretty spot on, I have thought the same!! I am sure not but even looks a bit lutescence'y

[peachy]

Ben, dear, possum, sweetie...grammar is so important. The adjective you are looking for is Lutescenesque.

Peachy

[Randall SD]

This is what I'm seeing on the bottom of some of the leaves on mine. Mostly on the ones from the last spear to open but not on every leaf.

Red color at the base of the spear being pushed.

The palm is going on it's 2nd year in the ground and is regularly pushing spears, hoping for a lot of growth this year.

[DippyD]

I'm just curious, I do not own a copy of POMs and I know ambositrae has a discription in there but is there photos of the palms they thought to be ambositrae? The reason I don't have one is if I have a extra 50 bucks that's an extra palm i can grow.

[richnorm]

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

Wasn't this palm also referred to as Dypsis 'kindreo' a while back? I did a search for this and there is a ton of info and many posts on PT about it...

e.g One of the threads

Daryl

Good lord this beast is out of control! This topic keeps coming up and will continue to do so until we can reconcile what we are growing and that gorgeous large palm we see in photos. Each time we discuss this we end up with a lot of heat and noise and, to borrow a phrase from Bill Beattie, a little more light. I think this round we have established a couple of new points: 1. That we cannot directly attribute any of our plants to a large parent plant. 2. Ramenta (once they appear which can take a long time) are brown rather than the grey referred to in PoM. Frustratingly we have not been able to establish whether the palms we are growing are uniformly tristichous once established (close to trunking). To me this would be a strong indication that we a dealing with a different palm, at least in a horticultural sense.

PS. kindreo is a form of baronii which came in with seed of the palm we are talking about here. It's a complete red herring as is plumosa.

Edited April 15, 2012 by richnorm

[richnorm]

I'm just curious, I do not own a copy of POMs and I know ambositrae has a discription in there but is there photos of the palms they thought to be ambositrae? The reason I don't have one is if I have a extra 50 bucks that's an extra palm i can grow.

[DippyD]

I'm just curious, I do not own a copy of POMs and I know ambositrae has a discription in there but is there photos of the palms they thought to be ambositrae? The reason I don't have one is if I have a extra 50 bucks that's an extra palm i can grow.

This palm looks like what we are growing is what it

Will turn out to be...

Sorry for the unexpiernce of palm knowledge, but who

Named this palm? Dransfield? Is the palm shown indeed ambositrae?

Ahhhh forget it I can't take anymore....

[Dypsisdean]

Check out this excellent thread by Jeff Searle - full of killer pics of this palm in habitat - from way back in 2006.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1969

[Jeff Searle]

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

Wasn't this palm also referred to as Dypsis 'kindreo' a while back? I did a search for this and there is a ton of info and many posts on PT about it...

e.g One of the threads

Daryl

Good lord this beast is out of control! This topic keeps coming up and will continue to do so until we can reconcile what we are growing and that gorgeous large palm we see in photos. Each time we discuss this we end up with a lot of heat and noise and, to borrow a phrase from Bill Beattie, a little more light. I think this round we have established a couple of new points: 1. That we cannot directly attribute any of our plants to a large parent plant. 2. Ramenta (once they appear which can take a long time) are brown rather than the grey referred to in PoM. Frustratingly we have not been able to establish whether the palms we are growing are uniformly tristichous once established (close to trunking). To me this would be a strong indication that we a dealing with a different palm, at least in a horticultural sense.

PS. kindreo is a form of baronii which came in with seed of the palm we are talking about here. It's a complete red herring as is plumosa.

When you stated; That we cannot directly attribute any of our plants to a large parent plant.

Is this in regards to plants in New Zealand only? Or other areas such as California and Hawaii?

[Alberto]

What about this population near this big rocks from where are the seeds sold by RPS?

http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/images/DypAmb.jpg

[richnorm]

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

Wasn't this palm also referred to as Dypsis 'kindreo' a while back? I did a search for this and there is a ton of info and many posts on PT about it...

e.g One of the threads

Daryl

Good lord this beast is out of control! This topic keeps coming up and will continue to do so until we can reconcile what we are growing and that gorgeous large palm we see in photos. Each time we discuss this we end up with a lot of heat and noise and, to borrow a phrase from Bill Beattie, a little more light. I think this round we have established a couple of new points: 1. That we cannot directly attribute any of our plants to a large parent plant. 2. Ramenta (once they appear which can take a long time) are brown rather than the grey referred to in PoM. Frustratingly we have not been able to establish whether the palms we are growing are uniformly tristichous once established (close to trunking). To me this would be a strong indication that we a dealing with a different palm, at least in a horticultural sense.

PS. kindreo is a form of baronii which came in with seed of the palm we are talking about here. It's a complete red herring as is plumosa.

When you stated; That we cannot directly attribute any of our plants to a large parent plant.

Is this in regards to plants in New Zealand only? Or other areas such as California and Hawaii?

I meant there are no documented examples here (ie in this thread, or elsewhere on Palmtalk as far as I know) of fruit collections from the large trunked form. Is there anyone who can say "I picked these seeds off this large trunked plant and here are the progeny"? I don't think so but would be mighty relieved if this was the case! Your seeds for example were obtained from locals who had already harvested them prior to your arrival(possibly even picked up off the ground by the look of them). Are there any pictures of inflorescences or infructescences out there? Maybe you even took some from the fruiting trees from which your seeds came? As an aside I was very interested in the pictures you posted of a purported young ambo in 'tana botanical gardens. It sure doesn't look like any in cultivation that I have seen in the flesh or online (usual caveats of course).

cheers

Richard

[richnorm]

What about this population near this big rocks from where are the seeds sold by RPS?

http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/images/DypAmb.jpg

They are not fruiting, just examples of large plants.

[edric]

Most these Ambo's are growing into a prettier Dypsis "bef" type plant. The true Ambo's hand collected by Bill and Pete and germinated in 2006 are turning out to be a much slower growing plant then these other things.

I think this is possibly a good hypothesis, certainly in my experience.

Edric, while I think your theory on the gentics has a lot of merit it raises some questions for me? Are you talking about genetic variation amongst seeds off the same plant or variation between plants?

I have two double planted specimens and it seems very coincidental and lucky that the two seeds with good genetics were put into the same pot and the two without such good genetics were put into a different pot. Both plants (pots) have been through the same hands and channels before arriving at my place... Not sure if this next part supports my theory or not but... from memory they looked identicle. I can trace them back about 3 steps before arriving to me, unfortunately not back to seed collection though.

Maybe this is just a coincidence but I believe them to be different plants, and think that the person who orginally double planted them in their pots was aware of this even though one was not named???

Just my thoughts

The infloresence will be interesting to see!!

Hi Kenny, no, genetic variation amongst seeds off of all species, may be the case in some instances, but in other cases, it's the runt of the litter, and in other cases it's growing conditions, or mishandling, or variations between plants, and I'm sure there are other reasons, so it's hard to say, which instance, in what case, now as Rich concluded, we're just going around in circles, my large specimen I received from JDA, as a one gallon years ago, and he said the seeds came in as sp. kindreo, so I've continued to use that name, it's hard to say what causes the differences, all I know is they're all the same species, and as Jeff Searle said there were NO other species around for miles and miles, save decipiens, when the natives colleted the seeds off the ground, lets not forget that (to use one of deans terms), being large solitary Dypsis they morph as well, ovobontsira, the ones in cultivation now, are NOT D. sp. dark mealy bug, Ed

[Jeff Searle]

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

Wasn't this palm also referred to as Dypsis 'kindreo' a while back? I did a search for this and there is a ton of info and many posts on PT about it...

e.g One of the threads

Daryl

Good lord this beast is out of control! This topic keeps coming up and will continue to do so until we can reconcile what we are growing and that gorgeous large palm we see in photos. Each time we discuss this we end up with a lot of heat and noise and, to borrow a phrase from Bill Beattie, a little more light. I think this round we have established a couple of new points: 1. That we cannot directly attribute any of our plants to a large parent plant. 2. Ramenta (once they appear which can take a long time) are brown rather than the grey referred to in PoM. Frustratingly we have not been able to establish whether the palms we are growing are uniformly tristichous once established (close to trunking). To me this would be a strong indication that we a dealing with a different palm, at least in a horticultural sense.

PS. kindreo is a form of baronii which came in with seed of the palm we are talking about here. It's a complete red herring as is plumosa.

When you stated; That we cannot directly attribute any of our plants to a large parent plant.

Is this in regards to plants in New Zealand only? Or other areas such as California and Hawaii?

I meant there are no documented examples here (ie in this thread, or elsewhere on Palmtalk as far as I know) of fruit collections from the large trunked form. Is there anyone who can say "I picked these seeds off this large trunked plant and here are the progeny"? I don't think so but would be mighty relieved if this was the case! Your seeds for example were obtained from locals who had already harvested them prior to your arrival(possibly even picked up off the ground by the look of them). Are there any pictures of inflorescences or infructescences out there? Maybe you even took some from the fruiting trees from which your seeds came? As an aside I was very interested in the pictures you posted of a purported young ambo in 'tana botanical gardens. It sure doesn't look like any in cultivation that I have seen in the flesh or online (usual caveats of course).

cheers

Richard

Richard,

The seeds that were collected on my trip in 2006 when I was with Peter Balasky and Bill Beattie were already picked before we got there as I stated. And in this area,where the palm gets it's name from, Ambositra is where we found very few of these growing. We witnessed a few juvinile size to larger ones that were flowering or had already flowered. Some of these were clumping forms with what I recall having from 2-5 trunks at various sizes. Then, we saw at least 2 trees that were solitary. One, being very tall( approx. 8-10 meters, hard to be exact), and was left on the property because the locals knew it was special and very few existed.

Because none of us specifically hand collected these seeds ourselves, I'm guessing that because so many were collected, that the seed came from more than one tree. And IMO, it dosen't matter if seed came from a solitary OR trunking tree, all seedlings have the genetic "chance" to grow as a solitary OR trunking plant and will do so.

I do know that we all brought back seeds, well over 1,000 and were distributed all over the world. So, one would think that as these plants grow and start to mature, there should be multiple trunks and solitary trunk plants in private collections.

So, to answer your question,is there anyone who can say, "I picked these seeds off a large trunk plant and here are the progeny", no we didn't, but that's not important. The seeds that I distributed are pure D. ambositrae and were documented as such.

I hope this information can help, and I hope I didn't miss or misunderstand any of your points.

Jeff

[LJG]

Richard,

The seeds that were collected on my trip in 2006 when I was with Peter Balasky and Bill Beattie were already picked before we got there as I stated. And in this area,where the palm gets it's name from, Ambositra is where we found very few of these growing. We witnessed a few juvinile size to larger ones that were flowering or had already flowered. Some of these were clumping forms with what I recall having from 2-5 trunks at various sizes. Then, we saw at least 2 trees that were solitary. One, being very tall( approx. 8-10 meters, hard to be exact), and was left on the property because the locals knew it was special and very few existed.

Because none of us specifically hand collected these seeds ourselves, I'm guessing that because so many were collected, that the seed came from more than one tree. And IMO, it dosen't matter if seed came from a solitary OR trunking tree, all seedlings have the genetic "chance" to grow as a solitary OR trunking plant and will do so.

I do know that we all brought back seeds, well over 1,000 and were distributed all over the world. So, one would think that as these plants grow and start to mature, there should be multiple trunks and solitary trunk plants in private collections.

So, to answer your question,is there anyone who can say, "I picked these seeds off a large trunk plant and here are the progeny", no we didn't, but that's not important. The seeds that I distributed are pure D. ambositrae and were documented as such.

I hope this information can help, and I hope I didn't miss or misunderstand any of your points.

Jeff

Thanks jeff. Can you tell the story behind this palm that Bill Beattie said grows around the same area and is not the real Dypsis ambositra. I beleive it is this palm many of us are growing and I beleive this to be the palm "Baby Red Stem" that Doc brought back a few years earlier and said came from up in that area. Has Pete ever mentioned anything about this photo you guys took on your trip?

[edric]

Hi Jeff, the seeds should have looked like the ones at the bottom of the page on this link, if you agree that the photos at the top of the page are D. ambositae, thanks for your time, and your patients, Ed

http://www2.palmpedia.net/wiki/Dypsis_ambositrae

[MattyB]

I like your style Len.

[richnorm]

Thank you Jeff for taking the time for such a full and open answer. I'm not trying to be obtuse but unfortunately it honestly provides me with little comfort. I know of two plants from your purchase. One is Len's and one is Gary Levine's. Both plants are very slow but I note that the growth rate of plants here varies enormously. Gary has stated on Palmtalk his view that most of the plants around are not Dypsis ambositrae but another palm which I believe he may have personally seen in Madagascar. The image which sticks in my mind is from a video of John Dransfield "Rediscovering" ambo. That tree was getting on for the size of a Dypsis decipiens! Then there's Len's question above, the young palm in 'tana botanical gardens, and most weighty of all the views of several distinguished collectors who care not to share their views on Palmtalk.

cheers Richard

[richnorm]

Hi Jeff, the seeds should have looked like the ones at the bottom of the page on this link, if you agree that the photos at the top of the page are D. ambositae, thanks for your time, and your patients, Ed

http://www2.palmpedia.net/wiki/Dypsis_ambositrae

Here's the picture of the seeds Jeff refers to above, taken from an earlier thread:

[edric]

Hi Jeff, the seeds should have looked like the ones at the bottom of the page on this link, if you agree that the photos at the top of the page are D. ambositae, thanks for your time, and your patients, Ed

http://www2.palmpedia.net/wiki/Dypsis_ambositrae

Here's the picture of the seeds Jeff refers to above, taken from an earlier thread:

Thanks Rich, I've seen the photo, too bad someone didn't take photos of the seeds, instead of people, I still agree with everything Jeff said, word for word, Ed

[MattyB]

That picture is so cool. We get to see the human connection.

[edric]

That picture is so cool. We get to see the human connection.

Hi Matty, now you're the one that I can't figure out if they're joking, but I guess you are, photos of the seeds was so important, Ed

[Jeff Searle]

Richard,

The seeds that were collected on my trip in 2006 when I was with Peter Balasky and Bill Beattie were already picked before we got there as I stated. And in this area,where the palm gets it's name from, Ambositra is where we found very few of these growing. We witnessed a few juvinile size to larger ones that were flowering or had already flowered. Some of these were clumping forms with what I recall having from 2-5 trunks at various sizes. Then, we saw at least 2 trees that were solitary. One, being very tall( approx. 8-10 meters, hard to be exact), and was left on the property because the locals knew it was special and very few existed.

Because none of us specifically hand collected these seeds ourselves, I'm guessing that because so many were collected, that the seed came from more than one tree. And IMO, it dosen't matter if seed came from a solitary OR trunking tree, all seedlings have the genetic "chance" to grow as a solitary OR trunking plant and will do so.

I do know that we all brought back seeds, well over 1,000 and were distributed all over the world. So, one would think that as these plants grow and start to mature, there should be multiple trunks and solitary trunk plants in private collections.

So, to answer your question,is there anyone who can say, "I picked these seeds off a large trunk plant and here are the progeny", no we didn't, but that's not important. The seeds that I distributed are pure D. ambositrae and were documented as such.

I hope this information can help, and I hope I didn't miss or misunderstand any of your points.

Jeff

Thanks jeff. Can you tell the story behind this palm that Bill Beattie said grows around the same area and is not the real Dypsis ambositra. I beleive it is this palm many of us are growing and I beleive this to be the palm "Baby Red Stem" that Doc brought back a few years earlier and said came from up in that area. Has Pete ever mentioned anything about this photo you guys took on your trip?

Len,

Sorry, but I can't help you on this adventure. I know Bill had mentioned to me while there that he had been to this area before and possibly 2,3 maybe 4 times, I just don't know. Pete has never mentioned about this palm, "Baby Red Stem" either.

Pete is actually in Madagascar now ( bummed I could not go along ), doing a tremendous amount of good work for so many locals.

[MattyB]

That picture is so cool. We get to see the human connection.

Hi Matty, now you're the one that I can't figure out if they're joking, but I guess you are, photos of the seeds was so important, Ed

I wasn't joking. Jokes are funny. That was a joke. So was that. So was that. So was that, etc.

[Jeff Searle]

Hi Jeff, the seeds should have looked like the ones at the bottom of the page on this link, if you agree that the photos at the top of the page are D. ambositae, thanks for your time, and your patients, Ed

http://www2.palmpedia.net/wiki/Dypsis_ambositrae

Short of putting my head on the chopping block , the palms at the top of the group do appear to look correctly. I would also say because of shade and vastly different growing conditions, they look somewhat stretched. The seeds seem to match up as well.....from what I remember.

[Caryota_gigas]

Ed, the seeds prove next to nothing. How many Dypsis seed look like that...?

[edric]

Ed, the seeds prove next to nothing. How many Dypsis seed look like that...?

Hello, the furry ones like Mad Fox, and sp. dwarf, nearly the same except sp. dwarf are 80% the the size, the mosaic ones like sp. betefaka is like NO other seed on earth, http://www2.palmpedia.net/wiki/images/4/49/IMG_1801.JPG sp. ovobontsira, and the ambositrae, are very close, except the sp. ovobontsira are slightly ovoid, and have a bit more pronounced center ridge, the sp. white petiole, http://www2.palmpedia.net/wiki/images/2/24/IMG_3215.jpg close to the sp. betefaka, but still wider stripes, no cigar, in addition, the seeds that do look the same, seem to produce vastly different seedlings, must I go on, Ed

[edric]

Hi Jeff, the seeds should have looked like the ones at the bottom of the page on this link, if you agree that the photos at the top of the page are D. ambositae, thanks for your time, and your patients, Ed

http://www2.palmpedia.net/wiki/Dypsis_ambositrae

Short of putting my head on the chopping block , the palms at the top of the group do appear to look correctly. I would also say because of shade and vastly different growing conditions, they look somewhat stretched. The seeds seem to match up as well.....from what I remember.

Thanks Jeff, so far, IMO, your word is Gospel, Ed

[MattyB]

I found some pics I thought I'd share.

at planting, April '08

only 14 months later, June '09

These things grow great!

[edric]

I found some pics I thought I'd share.

at planting, April '08

only 14 months later, June '09

These things grow great!

Hi Matty, are the two in the last photo adouble planting, or did they double below ground, thanks, Ed

[MattyB]

It's a double planting; 2 palms in one hole.

[DippyD]

I found some pics I thought I'd share.

at planting, April '08

only 14 months later, June '09

These things grow great!

And these palms are the same palms that you posted pictures in post#50?

[MattyB]

Correct. Same palms as I posted in post #50.

[edric]

I found some pics I thought I'd share.

at planting, April '08

only 14 months later, June '09

These things grow great!

Hi Matty, are the two in the last photo adouble planting, or did they double below ground, thanks, Ed

Thanks Matty, for confirming that, Ed

[richnorm]

Matty, Am I right in thinking that one of those plants is from Jeff Marcus in 2006 and therefore the seed was possibly from Jeff Searle's expedition as so beautifully captured in that photo above? It would be great to be able to confirm that at least. Seems that skinny clumping plant on Palmpedia is likely to be from the same seed too and like your's appears to be the same tristichous "Slick Willy" in drag. Unfortunately seed got here at about the same time so there must be the possibility of a alternative source hot on the heels of Jeff's seed. Feel free to tell me to shut up and get a life!

cheers

Richard

[MattyB]

Correct, one of those is from Jeff Marcus in 2006, September if I remember correctly. (mistakenly labled D. onilahensis). My memory isn't so clear anymore, but I think that this was a nice sized 1 gallon plant when I got it in 2006, so even in Hawaii with fast growth, it must have been growing for a year or two before I got it.

At that time, if you ordered a D. ambositrae, you were still getting what is now known as Dypsis plumosa.

[richnorm]

Correct, one of those is from Jeff Marcus in 2006, September if I remember correctly. (mistakenly labled D. onilahensis). But keep in mind that this was a nice sized 1 gallon plant when I got it in 2006, so even in Hawaii with fast growth, it must have been growing for a year or two before I got it.

Thanks, possibly not a mistake after all! And presumably the Palmpedia plant could also have been retrospectively labelled.