Livistona rigida at 5, 7 & 12 years

[David Clulow]

This is a most attractive palm from the dry red centre of Australia. It was originally labelled Livistona mariae var. rigida but the Australian Palm Botanist Dr. Mike Ferrari when examining them said they were L. rigida. As far as I know these are the only specimens of this taxon in Venezuela. Forgive the typo on the label! I will attempt to attach photos and add verbals but I'm not sure how to do this. The first photo is at just 5 years old and you can see that the leaves are a most attractive reddish shade but at 7 years they have turned green

This one is at 9 years

and at 12 years

and finally the label with its typo

[David Clulow]

Could someone kindly let me know how to put photos in the picture with verbals ? Many thanks

I forgot to say that the largest Livistona rigida has been fruiting heavily for the last two years

[pfancy]

cant beat that, 12 years and 30' tall! if only landscapers/nurseries knew about these here in the desert they might start planting/growing these in place of washies. a mariae that has easily put out 3' in a year here in my yard. david, just change the picture name in the computer file so when you scroll over it the caption pops up.

Edited August 18, 2012 by pfancy

[gyuseppe]

I have livistona rigida and livistona mariae,have resisted to -4 degrees celsius in my garden

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=23106&hl=mariae

[David Clulow]

pfancy

Have you considered Eucalyptus papuana ? This should do well in desert conditions. We have a prolonged dry season here of at least three months and we do not irrigate in the dry season - just too much.

The tall palm on the right is Washingtonia robusta and the small palm in front of it is Anonidia merrillii, incidentally both of these were raised from seeds sown the same day.

[pfancy]

nice, dave. i just planted 6 eucalyptus for shade/canopy-campaspe, leucoxylon rosea, sargentii, woodwardii, victrix "coolibah", and camaldulensis "silverton". unique/great trees that grow strong and fast and dont fall over in our monsoon storms like our native trees

[Walter John]

Great Livistonas, grand looking.

[Cedric]

nice, dave. i just planted 6 eucalyptus for shade/canopy-campaspe, leucoxylon rosea, sargentii, woodwardii, victrix "coolibah", and camaldulensis "silverton". unique/great trees that grow strong and fast and dont fall over in our monsoon storms like our native trees

I was tempted with eucalyptus but read that they fall over easily and shed whole branches at a time, is this just a few species? I am surprised that the native trees of Arizona "fall over easily in our monsoon storms", I've been there so many times but I never knew Arizona had monsoons are they wet ones?

[Phoenikakias]

cant beat that, 12 years and 30' tall! if only landscapers/nurseries knew about these here in the desert they might start planting/growing these in place of washies. a mariae that has easily put out 3' in a year here in my yard. david, just change the picture name in the computer file so when you scroll over it the caption pops up.

Unless you free plant from its pot boundaries and dig a deep and wide bowl flooding it with water 2 times weekly, this nevertheless beautiful palm will keep growing slowly.

[tropicbreeze]

If the seeds that grew into these palms were collected from "Deep Valley of River Finke" then they are Livistona mariae and not L. rigida

The most southerly natural occurance of L. rigida (synonym Livistona mariae subsp. rigida (Becc.) Rodd, Telopea 8: 80 (1998) is over a 1000 kms north of that area.

[sarasota alex]

In Sarasota they seem to be relatively slow growing.

There is a group of about 8 L. rigida in Sarasota, literally hidden in plain sight in front of a dental office right on Tamiami Trail, a few blocks south of the Sarasota Memorial Hospital. They are slightly obscured by an aluminum fence, but that's enough for anyone driving by to not notice anything special. I discovered them a couple of years ago when I took my wife there to see a doctor. At that time a few of them still had red petioles.

Anyway, I've been watching them over the last couple of years and they seem to be growing at about the rate of a Sabal palmetto.

[mike in kurtistown]

A recent DNA study showed that L. mariae of the Australian interior and a population of L. rigida on the north coast were genetically similar. It has been speculated that Aborigines may have carried seeds and planted the population in the interior. Bigger DNA differences were found among L. rigida populations along the north coast.

[tropicbreeze]

The accepted name is still L. mariae. Are they moving to have that research accepted? The name L mariae would have to stay, it predates "rigida".

From what I've seen, and I've seen virtually all mariae in habitat - advantage of very limited distribution, mariae has much redder juveniles than rigida. Although in both you can still get all green seedlings and juveniles. And the southern most rigida seem to have more red than the more northern ones. Wonder whether it could be a response to more aridity.

One interesting question that arises from the possibility of seeds being transported by Aborigines is why aren't there any intermediate populations between Mataranka and Palm Valley. People normally camped near springs and waterholes when they travelled

Of course the scenario may have run something like this:

A bloke takes off north for a long journey leaving his wife and kids behind.

He returns a year later and his wife asks, "You've been gone long enough, what did you bring back?"

He hands her a dilly bag full of seeds.

She takes one look and says, "A whole year gone and you can't even bring back a decent kangaroo or Perentie, just a dilly bag of what looks like dried animal droppings!"

And she throws the seeds out in disgust.

And so begins a whole new chapter in the story of Livistona, as well as seeds to a heated controversy 30,000 years later.

[sarasota alex]

Livistona rigida has been an accepted species (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?name_id=114967) since the publication of "Taxonomic Account of Livistona" by Dowe in 2009.

[mike in kurtistown]

It takes a while for such research results to be studied and accepted (if they are) by the botanical authorities in the appropriate field. Results of the DNA study were discussed here on Palmtalk within the last year or so, but I don't remember the subject title. The hypothesis of aboriginal transition is intriguing but can only be speculative because they left no records.

[tropicbreeze]

Livistona mariae was published in 1878, L. rigida was published in 1921.

But in any event, the plants from seeds collected in Palm Valley shown at the start of this thread are L. mariae. And even if the recent research is accepted and names are changed, those plants will still be L. mariae, along with the plants further north.

[sarasota alex]

They used to be accepted as two separate species except during a period between 1998 and 2009. This is the way Dowe described it:

"The closeness of L. mariae to L. rigida has been recognised by some authors. Johnson (1981) wrote of the relationship of L. rigida: “… very closely related to the Fan-Leaved Palm (L. mariae) of central Australia and may even be conspecific…”. Rodd (1998) resolved this by placing L. rigida as a subspecies of L. mariae, but noting his action as a temporary measure pending a thorough investigation. Considering the above, and while acknowledging that L. mariae and L. rigida are closely related, I have reinstated the latter to specific status."

Zig, you are correct about the palms in the initial post being L. mariae, but according to Dowe the populations further up north are L. rigida. Again from his paper about Livistona mariae:

"The total population includes about 2000 mature individuals confined to Palm Valley and Little Palm Ck."

[tropicbreeze]

Alex, yes that's what I was saying. Any name change would only be for the northern populations. The area there is called Mpulungkinya by the local indigenous people. It's a national park. One of the rangers was telling me there was a very small population of mariae that managed to make it out into the Finke River. The Finke is large and goes from major flooding to decades of drought with no flow. Difficult for palms to get established, as history has shown.

In Palm Valley they grow densely along the creek. I first went there in my teens and remember being told they were special as their nearest living relatives were the Cabbage Palms on the east coast, Livistona australis. It was a very remote area and the only information around was via word of mouth. The palms were considered a relict population from a time when the centre of the continent was wetter. There were Melaleucas there as well, also associated with wet climates.

[Sandy Loam]

David (in Venezuela), your experience makes LIVISTONA RIGIDA sound incredibly fast-growing.  Sarasota-Alex, your experience is the opposite.  For me, this palm has been quite slow-growing, but that may be my own fault.  Mine was planted in deep shade, so the slow growth rate is likely my own fault.

Does anyone else on PALMTALK have experience with the growth rate of LIVISTONA RIGIDA?  Fast?  Slow?   

I am about to transplant my own LIVISTONA RIGIDA into a slightly sunnier location, so hopefully this will make a difference in growth rate.

By the way, LIVISTONA MARIAE has been much faster growing for me than LIVISTONA RIGIDA, so I am surprised that they are so closely related.   My Livistona Mariae also looks totally different from my livistona rigida, at least to my eyes.  Neither has ever been harmed by the short, but harsh, cold snaps in my region either.        

Wish me luck in my attempt to transplant this tree!  It was planted five years ago, so it won't want its roots disturbed, unfortunately.  

 

[howfam]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2013 at 11:13 AM, sarasota alex said:

In Sarasota they seem to be relatively slow growing.

There is a group of about 8 L. rigida in Sarasota, literally hidden in plain sight in front of a dental office right on Tamiami Trail, a few blocks south of the Sarasota Memorial Hospital. They are slightly obscured by an aluminum fence, but that's enough for anyone driving by to not notice anything special. I discovered them a couple of years ago when I took my wife there to see a doctor. At that time a few of them still had red petioles.

Anyway, I've been watching them over the last couple of years and they seem to be growing at about the rate of a Sabal palmetto.

Sarasota Alex:

Are these L. rigida still there in 2019? I tried looking on streetview but can't find them. What's the cross street on Tamiami Trail?

[Pal Meir]

On 1/18/2019 at 3:26 AM, howfam said:

Sarasota Alex:

Are these L. rigida still there in 2019? I tried looking on streetview but can't find them. What's the cross street on Tamiami Trail?

Not from Sarasota, but from their habitat in Mataranka/NT:

[howfam]

5 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Not from Sarasota, but from their habitat in Mataranka/NT:

 

Nice photos from habitat. They would surely look nice lining some streets here in Florida. Good Washingtonia replacements. 

[Steve the palmreader]

 Pine island Florida

[Sandy Loam]

Does anyone have any clue how old those mature Livistona Rigida are in Mataranka, Northern Territory?   It's hard to beat those beautiful giants in their native habitat, but the tall ones may be extremely old.

The Livistona Rigida growing in Pine Island, Florida (photo above) are not as tall as I would have expected if they have been there for a decade or two (or three), although they may be growing in low-nutrient pure sand on that particular island.  Steve-the-Palmreader, do you know how old those palms are?   

 

 

[Steve the palmreader]

12 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Does anyone have any clue how old those mature Livistona Rigida are in Mataranka, Northern Territory?   It's hard to beat those beautiful giants in their native habitat, but the tall ones may be extremely old.

The Livistona Rigida growing in Pine Island, Florida (photo above) are not as tall as I would have expected if they have been there for a decade or two (or three), although they may be growing in low-nutrient pure sand on that particular island.  Steve-the-Palmreader, do you know how old those palms are?   

 

 

I think they were planted in the 1990s.

[sarasota alex]

On 1/17/2019 at 9:26 PM, howfam said:

Sarasota Alex:

Are these L. rigida still there in 2019? I tried looking on streetview but can't find them. What's the cross street on Tamiami Trail?

Here is the streetview link: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.3065656,-82.5302451,3a,75y,274.43h,95.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBn_p90tSy_UgH3aKOsj0NA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also since the latest DNA analysis has found L. mariae and L. rigida to be genetically indistinct - these should now be referred to as L. mariae "rigida form"

[tropicbreeze]

Kondo et al felt they were exactly the same or should at least be treated as subspecies. They've been accepted as L mariae ssp mariae and L. mariae ssp rigida, although Kew is a bit behind on this and still treats them as separate species. The separation between them was assessed to be around 15,000 years.

"The two taxa were found to be very closely related, in a pattern which indicates that they should be treated as a single species or subspecies rather than fully separate species;......"
(Proc. R. Soc. B (2012) 279, 4115–4117, doi:10.1098/rspb.2012.1545, Published online 22 August 2012)

 

[sarasota alex]

28 minutes ago, tropicbreeze said:

Kondo et al felt they were exactly the same or should at least be treated as subspecies. They've been accepted as L mariae ssp mariae and L. mariae ssp rigida, although Kew is a bit behind on this and still treats them as separate species. The separation between them was assessed to be around 15,000 years.

"The two taxa were found to be very closely related, in a pattern which indicates that they should be treated as a single species or subspecies rather than fully separate species;......"
(Proc. R. Soc. B (2012) 279, 4115–4117, doi:10.1098/rspb.2012.1545, Published online 22 August 2012)

 

That's what I was referring to