Livistona dies

[555]

Hi, everyone. I've had Livistona Rotundifolia indoors for about 6 years. And now it started dying for unknown reason. The leaves become dark brown starting from its tips and die very quickly. Maybe it's a virus disease (like lethal yellowing)? Who knows how it can be stopped?

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Hi 555. Welcome to Palm Talk. You came to the right website but wrong forum. Try posting this in the Palm General Discussion, many more people read that.

Not likely LY. Do you have any pictures of it? Probably salt buildup in the soil or insect damage but it is hard to tell with just a description.

[palmazon]

Did you keep it in the same container with the same soil/media for 6 years? Post a photo, if possible - and move this to the main forum (MOD)

[palmazon]

JERRRRRRRY!!!!!!

[Walter John]

Livistona Rotundifolia indoors for about 6 years ? Not a good way to keep an outdoor in the ground plant.

[bgl]

Hi Alexander,

And welcome to PalmTalk. I am moving your thread to Discussing Palm Trees, which is the appropriate sub-forum, and where many more Forum members will see it as well.

Aloha from Hawaii,

Bo-Göran

[DoomsDave]

Alexander, welcome aboard and post a picture if you can.

Keeping Llivistona alive in Sakhalin is an achievement. We can all learn something from you, and vice versa.

If not sure how to post a picture, look at the "how to" forum on Palm Talk.

http://www.palmtalk....showtopic=11999

If really desperate, shoot me a Private message and I'll talk you through it.

[555]

Hi, everyone. I've had Livistona Rotundifolia indoors for about 6 years. And now it started dying for unknown reason. The leaves become dark brown starting from its tips and die very quickly. Maybe it's a virus disease (like lethal yellowing)? Who knows how it can be stopped?

Hi 555. Welcome to Palm Talk. You came to the right website but wrong forum. Try posting this in the Palm General Discussion, many more people read that.

Not likely LY. Do you have any pictures of it? Probably salt buildup in the soil or insect damage but it is hard to tell with just a description.

No insects visible, the roots look healthy, maybe salt but it would die slower in this case I guess. Next time I'll try to water it throughly.

[555]

Did you keep it in the same container with the same soil/media for 6 years? Post a photo, if possible - and move this to the main forum (MOD)

I repot it about once 1.5-2 years, all the time by the same window (not full sun).

[555]

Alexander, welcome aboard and post a picture if you can.

Keeping Llivistona alive in Sakhalin is an achievement. We can all learn something from you, and vice versa.

If not sure how to post a picture, look at the "how to" forum on Palm Talk.

http://www.palmtalk....showtopic=11999

If really desperate, shoot me a Private message and I'll talk you through it.

I'm in the neighboring city now, so no photo yet. It would be a miracle for Sakhalin if planted outdoors, but it's inside. It started very unexpectedly and quickly I don't see a reason. It looked rather healthy several days ago.

[DoomsDave]

Alexander, welcome aboard and post a picture if you can.

Keeping Llivistona alive in Sakhalin is an achievement. We can all learn something from you, and vice versa.

If not sure how to post a picture, look at the "how to" forum on Palm Talk.

http://www.palmtalk....showtopic=11999

If really desperate, shoot me a Private message and I'll talk you through it.

I'm in the neighboring city now, so no photo yet. It would be a miracle for Sakhalin if planted outdoors, but it's inside. It started very unexpectedly and quickly I don't see a reason. It looked rather healthy several days ago.

A picture would really help a lot.

If you don't have a camera, maybe get someone who does to take a pic for you so you can post it?

For what it's worth, we'd all love to see pictures of Sakhalin, a very cool exotic place most of us will never see.

[555]

Alexander, welcome aboard and post a picture if you can.

Keeping Llivistona alive in Sakhalin is an achievement. We can all learn something from you, and vice versa.

If not sure how to post a picture, look at the "how to" forum on Palm Talk.

http://www.palmtalk....showtopic=11999

If really desperate, shoot me a Private message and I'll talk you through it.

I'm in the neighboring city now, so no photo yet. It would be a miracle for Sakhalin if planted outdoors, but it's inside. It started very unexpectedly and quickly I don't see a reason. It looked rather healthy several days ago.

A picture would really help a lot.

If you don't have a camera, maybe get someone who does to take a pic for you so you can post it?

For what it's worth, we'd all love to see pictures of Sakhalin, a very cool exotic place most of us will never see.

I have a camera, but not able to take a picture in the near future. I saw a post from a guy, probably from Michigan, about his Trachi - I think my dying palm looks similar to his one. Anyway I'll picture it when possible, maybe in a week. Unfortunately palms take so much space in my tiny flat that I'll have to sell them or give to kinder garden close by

[Alicehunter2000]

Sakhalin is a large Russian island in the North Pacific, lying between 45°50' and 54°24' N. It is Russia's largest island, and is administered as part of Sakhalin Oblast. Sakhalin, which is about one fifth the size of Japan, is just off the east coast of Russia, and just north of Japan.

Had to Google it to find out where the heck your from.

[paulgila]

as has been said already,it was not an ideal situation for the palm. i think it just gave up.

[Halekuma]

Why so surprised? My mom has grown a livistona rotundifolia indoors for about 4 years from a 3 leaves seedling and it looks as healthier as it can be... It is behind a south-west oriented window so it gets some light in the morning (not so much in winter though)... I will try to take a photo when possible... It is already trunking since last year so I think it looks quite solid as an indoor palm, unlike the usual palms that people try to grow indoors here in spain (dypsis lutescens for example...)

My mom is not a "great palm grower" either...

Edited November 30, 2012 by Halekuma

[555]

Why so surprised? My mom has grown a livistona rotundifolia indoors for about 4 years from a 3 leaves seedling and it looks as healthier as it can be... It is behind a south-west oriented window so it gets some light in the morning (not so much in winter though)... I will try to take a photo when possible... It is already trunking since last year so I think it looks quite solid as an indoor palm, unlike the usual palms that people try to grow indoors here in spain (dypsis lutescens for example...)

My mom is not a "great palm grower" either...

Yeah, I think it can be grown indoors if given enough space and light. Mine should be given more sunlight and in case of lack of this it would become pale yellowish I think, but it burns. It hasn't grown fast - just about 2-3 fronds per year, but looked healthy. I'm inclined to believe the main reason is salt though I didn't fertilize much.

[Moose]

Alexander here is a thread of someone who has experience with your growing conditions. http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=31776&hl=sergey Welcome to Palm Talk!

Is this one of the Livistonas that got moved into the new genus Saribus?

[555]

Alexander here is a thread of someone who has experience with your growing conditions. http://www.palmtalk....31776&hl=sergey Welcome to Palm Talk!

Is this one of the Livistonas that got moved into the new genus Saribus?

Nothing heard about this, I think they are different. Some people think that Rotundifolia is the same or very close to Robinsoniana.

[555]

I'm slightly confused ether mine is Rotundifolia or Jenkisiana. It looks like the latter in someone's photos. Probably the Dutch nursery labels its palms wrong...

[555]

So, here it is.

[555]

So, here it is.

Sorry, the picture is too large for uploading.

[555]

[555]

[555]

[David_Sweden]

I'm also interested in this thread, but it doesn't seem to have any conclusions?

I have a smaller rotundifolia (8 fronds, about 1' high above soil level). It has been doing quite well since i got it in April, and it has additional light since October (70W CMH spotlight, 10-30 klx 12h/day plus whatever sunlight there is in autumn in southern Sweden); a Foxtail and pygmy date palm standing next to it seem to love this light. It has produced one new frond every 2 months (all at the same height for some reason, so far) and still does.

I have no major problems but I'm a bit worried, because the 7-8 olderst fronds have no mentionable brown tips or spots, and the new frond also (it is pale at the bottom part but that it probably just because it is very new, it isn't even half open yet), BUT the 2nd and 3rd newest fronds have some rather big portions of the tips turning brown since the last couple of weeks. Basically it looks like in 555's pictures here but not that far gone and ony on parts of 2 fronds.

I checked for bugs (especially mites) with a loupe in sunlight and there are none. The tips that are brown are not the ones closest to lamp or sun (the distance to the lamp is about 4'). The outside temp has been 37.5F (3C) the last couple of days only, which means humidity has been above 40%RH almost every day until now (and I have increased it occasionally by boiling some water on the driest days); indoors temp is 69F (20.5C).

The soil was originally some very loose rough peat, to which I added a little ordinary potting mix and coarse sand in September since a lot of soil has been washed out; I know this increases water retention but I've been using a moisture meter and watered when it's moist but not wet in the lower half. I use tap water with normal dose of liquid fert (Palm Focus - actually I believe it is overkill to buy special palm fert but I use it for my Foxtail since I read it can easily get K deficiancy, and I use it for the other 2 palms out of convenience). I have leached it properly mid September, and I always give it ~10-20% too much water and empty the outer pot after a few minutes.

I'm mainly considering whether I should water it one day earlier i e not let it dry out fully as much. One peculiarity is that one half of the soil dries out faster than the other which makes it trickier to decicde when to water. The soil is now at the brim which means the root volume must have grown - it needs water about every 7 days though so that to me indicates it is no reason to think it is in need of repotting. It has a plastic inner pot (ceramic outer pot which I make sure is empty after watering), since a few weeks 3 roots stick out from the holes, the longest one ½", they haven't grown any longer in the last 2-3 weeks though, and the tips of at least one is black which I guess could indicate rot but on the other hand I'm thinking it might be normal for a root that is outside the pot? On the other hand I guess it could be too much water - small parts of the surface is green even though the surface is completely dry 2-3 days between waterings, and I don't know how to tell if it's moss or algea, in either case I think it isn't harmful but could indicate a bit much water.

When I repot it one day, I plan to use a different type of soil mix with ~40% coarse sand, and I read this palm isn't very sensitive to being moved so maybe I can replace some of its present soil then.

And unlike the photos here, the dry tips are almost exclusively at the outer "leaves" (if you can call it leaves when they are almost completely palmate). And not symmetrically, only on one side. This distribution to me would fit an explanation that involves bugs or lamps or radiators but I can't see that those things aren't good enough as is.

One thing I thought about now is that above the window there's a small opening that is part of my flats ventilation system - this means that despite the 3 layer window, the cold outside comes in through these holes and falls down on the plants. I think I read somewhere that some palms hate cold drafts but all my plants have this situation and no other one has complained - are rotundifolia extra sensitive to cold drafts? I can shut those vent holes but plants also like fresh air.

So all in all I think it's strange that this happens mostly to only 2 fronds and only minor parts of them, and I find it hard to decide what to do.

Regarding 555's problems above, I suppose any advice now is a bit late but if the soil hasn't been leached in 6 years, then it can lead to root and plant death eventually but I think it should be preceded by slower growth and maybe some more symptoms.

[PalmnutVN]

At the end of the day, I get the feeling that these kinds of problems boil down to two main factors..... insufficient light and the wrong kind of heat or lack of it.

My wife's parents have had one of these Saribus palms growing in their stairwell for as long as I can remember (I met her back in Dec 2008) and it still sits there growing away slowly, but happily with none of the tip browning that you would normally associate with indoor heating or in other words, a lack of humidity. It gets about an hour of direct sunlight every day from the window at the top of the stairs and has never seemed to suffer any ill effects from being indoors.

Having grown palms in both the UK and Sweden in the past, I'll willingly admit that keeping palms happy, especially during the winter months is enough to test the will of 1000 Caesars, especially when you have to balance your indoor central heating against the palm's humidity requirements, not to mention, ensuring that your palms get all the light they need.

That said, new leaves always tend to be more susceptible to environmental changes than the older leaves, so in this case it would seem that the cold draught you mentioned, could indeed be the source of your problem. You might want to try a little trick that I used to use during the winter and that was to completely aerate a room where there are no palms, shut the window, then open the door of this room and allow this fresh air to move around your house or apartment. The ambient air temperature in the rest of your abode should raise the temperature of this fresh air quickly enough to prevent any damage to your palms. I also found that spraying indoor palms was preferable to watering them too much, in fact, I used to keep the soil of my palms just moist while spraying the foliage 2-3 times a day.

[David_Sweden]

Thanks for the input. Some thoughts:

My lamp causes very little heat at that distance (e g if I hold a hand there I feel nothing or maybe 1degC), and my pygme date is at half the distance and has only some very minor brown tipping. I have kept all these (Rotundifolia, Foxtail, Pygme Date, Lipstick seedling and a "Hawaiian Palm") in this SSW window since spring (Lipstick and Hawaiian slightly shielded) and it is perfect for the Foxtail, but the Rotundifolia and Date maybe a bit plentiful with some very minor brown tips but on the other hand they grow quite well. In the summer there's over 100 klx, now 10-30 klx, and it's almost never below 40% RH and no radiator is on and the brownest tips are not closest to the lamp. And the lamps have UV filters.

I mist both sides of the leaves every other morning for now (I have an experiment going on with one of my Licualas where I don't mist one leaf to see if it makes any difference). In another window I have two Licualas and the L Peltata has no problems at all so far, the L Ramsayi looks very nice but is struggling a bit more with aquiring the green color and not drying. The L Peltata has the best soil (40% 2 mm sand, the rest a peat mix) which makes it easier for it to get oxygen, and it also has at least 2 visible pneumatophores, strangely the Ramsayi hasn't, I thought they had.

It seems the older leaves on the Rotundifolia are thicker with a thicker layer of wax - the 3 newest fronds are softer and thinner. Maybe that's part of the explanation? I read somewhere regarding plants getting used to sun outdoors that leaves which emerge in the sun can handle more sun, the other ones need to be slowly acclimatized; I'm thinking maybe an explanation why the newest frond looks good but the 2nd and 3rd have rather much browning locally (up to an inch or so) possibly could be that the new frond has seen my lamps from day 1 and their spectrum is a bit different (white but not very evenly distributed).

I have a few things to think about now.. I'm still having a hard time deciding if I should water one day earlier (to keep it quite moist) or later (to avoid sogginess). It is easier with the L Peltata, with the large portion of coarse sand and the pneumatophores.

If the cold draft could be a problem I could either move them a bit from the window or use your tip to aerate another room. I think I'll first of all wait and see if the new frond stays completely free from brown tips like it is so far.

You can't see the brown tips in this image since they are at the far end but at least you can see the placement and the newest frond. What might look like brown tips on the newest frond is just brown "goo" that falls off later.

[David_Sweden]

I decided to move it to an adjacent window which doesn't have vent holes above it, diminish light from 10-30 klx to 5-22 klx and aim at watering one day earlier. Strange though how only one side of one frond (the 2nd newest) is affected.

I think you may be right that cold draft may be part of the explanation, and that part saw very slightly more light as well, but as you can see the newest front doesn't have a single brown spot. I've kept humidity >40%RH almost always. I would have expected the Lipstick seedling to be more sensitive to cold drafts.

Seems only the "tips" get burnt, although the tips are over one inch on these fronds.

[Moose]

Two possible or concurrent things happened to Alexander's palm. The growing medium broke down over time and drainage became poor, not enough aeration. As mentioned earlier in the thread, mineral salts accumulated to an excessive level. May have been both. Hard to tell from photos. Being able to check the root system would have been helpful.

[DoomsDave]

I think repotting would help a lot.

Aside from what appears to be salt burn, the palm looks pretty good to me.

Wow, Sakhalin! On the edge of the continent, and near a howling wilderness, or at least what used to be.

555 come back . . .

[Josh-O]

I decided to move it to an adjacent window which doesn't have vent holes above it, diminish light from 10-30 klx to 5-22 klx and aim at watering one day earlier. Strange though how only one side of one frond (the 2nd newest) is affected.

IMG_0003.jpg

I think you may be right that cold draft may be part of the explanation, and that part saw very slightly more light as well, but as you can see the newest front doesn't have a single brown spot. I've kept humidity >40%RH almost always. I would have expected the Lipstick seedling to be more sensitive to cold drafts.

IMG_0004r.jpg IMG_0006r.jpg

Seems only the "tips" get burnt, although the tips are over one inch on these fronds.

I like the choice of the pot you used. a cup of palm anyone?

[David_Sweden]

Glad you like it. It took a while to find a cup that fitted . I just added a pasta can piedestal as well:

So that it gets more lamp light (8-16 klx). The Lipstick palm I probably should have given up on, it's not supposed to be that pale but it's been that way since I got it in June. But, actually, a new frond has been visible since mid November, about 17 mm tall now and growing ½ mm/day. If it ends well I'll write more about it in another thread.

[David_Sweden]

I actually have a brand new theory on why the fronds on my Livistona dried up, which seems plausible, having ruled out most other possible causes:

I have plants in two windows: NE (morning sun) and SW (full sun from before noon), and artificial light and some tricks to increase humidity, so that e g last month it's been min ~45%RH in the NE window. I have e g two Licualas and a Ch Elegans here, they do very well.

The humidity is ok also in the SW window, when there's no sun. But with full sun, humidity at the leaves decreases to as low as <30%, mainly due to the direct effect of the sun heating up the leaves in combination with the temp dependance of relative humidity, but the sun also causes a few degrees temp increase of the whole room (in the shadow). If it was summer I could open a window but now it's too cold. My Foxtail and Lipstick (and two succulents) have no symptoms though, the thicker leaves seem to be able to handle more heat/dryness/sun.

If the theory is correct then it means it's difficult to place plants in direct sun in the winter, and it also means a normal humidifier is of very limited use (you need lots of steam mid day, and if it is capable of that, then you will get too much humidity in the evening). It would also mean that (if you have no humidifier) it is a bad idea to keep (many) plants in sunny windows even when outdoors temp is as high as 15C (assuming indoors temp is 25C). But the general advice I heard is to move most plants to sunnier windows in the winter..

It would also explain why the same plants did fine in direct sun almost all day long, from May to October, with no humidifier.

Lowering the room temp would be good but living in the top apartment my temp depends mostly on my neighbour's settings and the sun, and if I open a window I let the moist out. My best remedy so far is mainly to aim at 50%RH in the shadow and use blinds with slats horizontally and switch off lamps from 13 to 16 o clock.

Thinking about how the leaves see 35degC while <30%RH for hours to me sounds tough on the plant. What do you think, have I missed something in my reasoning?