Local Arizona Thread

[AZ_Palm_Guy]

@96720 total bummer. My backyard is flooded in some spots. We were getting hammered with heavy rain for about 20-25 min. Felt like it was monsoon season. Rain is pretty light but been steady now for 3hrs.

[rogets395]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:54 PM, Meangreen94z said:

I see there’s lots of interest in the Phoenix area as far as this thread, but not as much in Tucson? I have seen a few Tucson based members on here though.. Tucson appears to be more into natives and water conservation? Anyone pushing tropical/exotic palms in that region and know what will be successful? Tucson is 9B but sees occasional dips into the teens so I’m guessing success is limited?

TUCSON -- There is a Bismarkia and several species (nitida / dulcis / brandeegii ? / etc) of lesser planted Brahea at a little neighborhood nursery on Stone.  Pic of one unidentified brahea attch.

And another Bismarkia at business on 77 (Oracle or Miracle mile)  that has been there for a number of years - they gave it an unfortunate hurricane haircut more recently I hope it won't kick off over winter due to that.  Several other areas have not been successful for Bismarkia sustaining heavy damage /death in Tucson.  There was a fairly good size Bismarkia in the Encanto home district off Broadway (very nice area) But I have NOT been able to find it again after seeing it once. (Was so sure I could find it again I didn't bother to write down address) 

There was a Large clump of Acoelorrhaphe on south side of Broadway in a commercial Office building landscape that had been there for years. It was beautiful then the management (likely having no idea how rare it was) dug it up and disposed of it.  It was located on the edge of a water feature.  I collected seeds from it but the seedlings damped off 

There was another large clump in a small engine repair landscape that was utterly neglected and very much alive until one day it also disappeared  (They "Cleaned up" their landscaping) 

unfortunately I am unable to attach my pics.  

For pic of 2936 N. Stone Ave. Tucson AZ - look next to colorful bldg. on East side of street.  (Nursery is right behind that and if you take Google yellow man down to corner (north) same side of street you'll see a Brahea (unsure of species)  prob. about same size trunk as Bismarkia. 

The captcha required me to check palm trees!!!  (kek!)

Edited January 8, 2022 by rogets395
add pics

[rogets395]

An unidentified -- perhaps a Ravenea or Syagrus Hybrid?  (only saw online - in one of my Map searches.)

There's also a Large Roystonea doing well in a private yard in San Luis and they're all over the place S. of the border in Mexico a mile away.

Here's a photo of two beautiful Roystonea at a home in a gated neighborhood south of Yuma and west a few miles.

Also:  At the steakhouse near a hospital in Yuma called Julianna's -- There is a courtyard with several Genera. Oddly the Syagrus in photos look Fried from Cold but there is a Roystonea that is beautiful / untouched maybe 25 feet tall... and a clump of Dypsis lutescens and some kind of Caryota.

Edited January 8, 2022 by rogets395

[rogets395]

High in the hills of Escondido -  Either an old Howea? or ??

Not a Coconut surely.

I believe there is a coconut on the shores of Catalina in Avalon however. Doesn't look too good but maybe the only clime West coast US that could pull it off.  11a or b.

Pic attached. It's pretty sorry looking.

 

[rogets395]

Here is another Bismarkia in Tucson.

This one is not a good picture.

It's on Miracle mile Hwy 77 / Oracle Tucson (on West side of Oracle at an old Pool business. It's something else now.  I'm happy they kept the Bismarkia.

[rogets395]

Another New photo of above (the building is now white) this one has address of business

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

On 1/7/2022 at 8:52 PM, rogets395 said:

An unidentified -- perhaps a Ravenea or Syagrus Hybrid?  (only saw online - in one of my Map searches.)

There's also a Large Roystonea doing well in a private yard in San Luis and they're all over the place S. of the border in Mexico a mile away.

Here's a photo of two beautiful Roystonea at a home in a gated neighborhood south of Yuma and west a few miles.

Also:  At the steakhouse near a hospital in Yuma called Julianna's -- There is a courtyard with several Genera. Oddly the Syagrus in photos look Fried from Cold but there is a Roystonea that is beautiful / untouched maybe 25 feet tall... and a clump of Dypsis lutescens and some kind of Caryota.

 

 

Royals in Yuma? Good find!  Ive found fair amounts of Dypsis Decaryi around there on streetview, at least 12 with relatively little time spent.  The royals in Juliannas arent visible with streetview, but some large caryota are, and possibly a dypsis lutescens.  https://www.google.com/maps/@32.681705,-114.64423,3a,72.3y,20.47h,93.88t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipMXFSlvflWTkLqE0vw14U7TgB5cFZq-A5qY-HbA!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMXFSlvflWTkLqE0vw14U7TgB5cFZq-A5qY-HbA%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi0-ya284.71097-ro-0-fo100!7i5376!8i2688

Are these two royals the ones you pictured here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6784859,-114.6413041,3a,15y,79.99h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWmri3RHKyBUmWuM3Ptp_iQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited January 10, 2022 by Mr.SamuraiSword

[rogets395]

The Two royals in Yuma at the big house are in a gated community - so you can't see them on Google. The pic was from the zillow ad when they were selling the house.

Now that it's sold it is no longer on the internet that I could see... luckily I grabbed it first.  There are several other large Royals in / around Yuma.  I've seen small ones in Brawley (imperial valley zone 9b) too... but they are young.  Long term frost data for Brawley isn't that good.  Cathedral city though actually has an area of 10a.

Yuma is 10a unlike Phoenix and if you search Wikipedia Yuma you can look at climate data and look at the all time LOWS going back all the way to the 1800s (late) I think the lowest is like 24 or 26 or something. (F) 

Go to San Luiz on border south of Yuma to see this Royal here:

 

[rogets395]

2 hours ago, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

Royals in Yuma? Good find!  Ive found fair amounts of Dypsis Decaryi around there on streetview, at least 12 with relatively little time spent.  The royals in Juliannas arent visible with streetview, but some large caryota are, and possibly a dypsis lutescens.  https://www.google.com/maps/@32.681705,-114.64423,3a,72.3y,20.47h,93.88t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipMXFSlvflWTkLqE0vw14U7TgB5cFZq-A5qY-HbA!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMXFSlvflWTkLqE0vw14U7TgB5cFZq-A5qY-HbA%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi0-ya284.71097-ro-0-fo100!7i5376!8i2688

Are these two royals the ones you pictured here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6784859,-114.6413041,3a,15y,79.99h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWmri3RHKyBUmWuM3Ptp_iQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The Royal at Juliannas steakhouse can be seen - but not on Google.  You have to go to google find the steakhouse then click on the pictures posted by the steak house.  I went through hundreds of photos maybe... It's never a clear pic - you'll have to go through a lot to find it. I didn't save it since there are other pics using Google from the area that are better.

Go south of the border with Google to the little town south of Yuma in Mexico and to Mexicali.  There are numerous Royals down there and they are similar or same climate as Yuma.

Elevation has a lot to do with it.  Brawley is below sea level (as is Palm springs)  and the hills above the east side of Salton sea are in zone 10a.  (temp - all time lows are 30-40) with some extremes below that of course... in the 24 to 28 range F.

[rogets395]

2 hours ago, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

Royals in Yuma? Good find!  Ive found fair amounts of Dypsis Decaryi around there on streetview, at least 12 with relatively little time spent.  The royals in Juliannas arent visible with streetview, but some large caryota are, and possibly a dypsis lutescens.  https://www.google.com/maps/@32.681705,-114.64423,3a,72.3y,20.47h,93.88t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipMXFSlvflWTkLqE0vw14U7TgB5cFZq-A5qY-HbA!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMXFSlvflWTkLqE0vw14U7TgB5cFZq-A5qY-HbA%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi0-ya284.71097-ro-0-fo100!7i5376!8i2688

Are these two royals the ones you pictured here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6784859,-114.6413041,3a,15y,79.99h,91.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWmri3RHKyBUmWuM3Ptp_iQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here is a Link to San Luis Arizona large Royal -  

https://www.google.com/maps/place/1017+C+St,+San+Luis,+AZ+85349/@32.4904649,-114.7753856,3a,44.2y,9.83h,96.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so8758dyXFTQ0unAmHu-AWQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x80d651da3eaf84d3:0xfe5b3976a7212fad!8m2!3d32.4902516!4d-114.7754641

[bubba]

Do not understand why someone has not attempted a Cocos nucifera in Yuma. The palm in Escondido looks very interesting and should be located and examined.
 

I believe the desert climate is more conducive to Cocos nucifera than the Marine however the Newport beach coconut absolutely confirms the possibility. Would love to see a picture of the coconut on the shores of Avalon. Thank you for the great work!

[Silas_Sancona]

4 hours ago, bubba said:

Do not understand why someone has not attempted a Cocos nucifera in Yuma. The palm in Escondido looks very interesting and should be located and examined.
 

I believe the desert climate is more conducive to Cocos nucifera than the Marine however the Newport beach coconut absolutely confirms the possibility. Would love to see a picture of the coconut on the shores of Avalon. Thank you for the great work!

Not even close to a coconut ( in Escondido ) ..Pretty certain that is a  Howea forsteriana,  Pretty old specimen too.. 


Wouldn't doubt there are Coconuts somewhere in / near Yuma .. Thing is, most people don't obsess over them, and won't post pictures..

[rogets395]

9 hours ago, bubba said:

Do not understand why someone has not attempted a Cocos nucifera in Yuma. The palm in Escondido looks very interesting and should be located and examined.
 

I believe the desert climate is more conducive to Cocos nucifera than the Marine however the Newport beach coconut absolutely confirms the possibility. Would love to see a picture of the coconut on the shores of Avalon. Thank you for the great work!

They likely would not survive.

For some reason Cocos nucifera "blood" stops running or slows below 50 degrees.  It's not just "freezing" weather that stops them.

That's why we don't really see much Cocos on the West coast.  IMO.

The picture of the Cocos on Avalon (I assume that's what it is... I do not KNOW) is in the above posted Pics.  (I already posted it.)

I don't know about any Cocos in Newport beach but if there is one there I assume it is given some sort of special little niche or something?

There is a really SAD Cocos in St. Augustine FL. It likely won't survive.

The farthest NORTH I've seen a Cocos in Florida is probably in Pinellas Park on hwy 694 north a mile or two of the railroad tracks and on the West side of road.

they're doing very well... but I've never seen a coconut on them (fruit) -- The Coconuts south on beach in Sarasota however do have coconuts.

Inland gets too cold.  Even Tampa is colder (and shows it) from St. Petersburg.  

All time lows for St. Petersburg are around 27.  It is zone 10a.   But one can never tell what the DURATION of the cold is -- which is maybe most important.

An infra-red thermal gadget can show pockets of warm and cold ranging 10 or more degrees in a 100 feet by 100 feet area.  Univ. Of Oregon (PRISM) used to have a really cool interactive feature on their zone map that allowed you to literally pinpoint a Lat. and Longitude anywhere in the USA or Puerto Rico and literally SEE the avg extreme LOW averaged by Satellite over a thirty year period.  This enabled a person to find a "warm" pocket within a zone that was consistently a few degrees warmer.  Their new UPDATED interactive tool no long has this feature and I am totally wrecked. I was addicted to that thing. Using it I found that their were warm zones in Far Northern Arizona along the Colorado river (Bullhead city and north) that were not only 10a zone but that were borderline 10b --  

The MOST FROST FREE area that I found (using the tool) in Arizona was Lake Martinez north of Yuma.  There is nowhere though in the West that stays above 45 or 50 degrees (USA) except for perhaps Catalina Island /  Parts of San Pedro penisula that juts out from L.A. north of Long Beach... and in the Hills ABOVE Malibu and Bel Aire etc going over the hills to Thousand Oaks etc.  The biggest problem with Arizona is really not winter cold perhaps but in 10a it is the HEAT.  Bullhead city is quite a bit hotter than even Yuma.  Ajo seems to be the most evenly temperature for the 10a zone in AZ (going over a period of 30 years of Lows and Highs.)  But has had LOWER LOWS than Bullhead city OR Yuma.  Yuma wins the prize for that.

Ajo wins the prize for not having such HIGH highs... while having consistently not too low lows.  Bullhead is more extreme in Heat and the all time temps don't go back as far historically.

I am convinced Roystonea, and maybe Wodyetia bifurcata and easily Neodypsis decaryii would easily be grown in Bullhead city as well as Ajo.  The only 10a zone in all of Phoenix area is just south of the airport everything else is 9b but of course there are warm and cold pockets everywhere.  A large body of water helps and a slope to the south and a South facing dark wall with an overhang just North of a planting.  (for winters)

McAllen Texas (which is 9b) is in a less "safe" zone SUPPOSEDLY than Brownsville TX which is mostly 10A.   However looking at all the damage to Roystonea in Brownsville (and death to Syagrus) is very strange since they do better in McAllen along with Wodyetia and others.

[rogets395]

Here are a couple of the Tools for Climate buffs...

The first one can use layers to show the underlying Map (more to less transparency on the colored ZONE overlay so you can actually see where you are...)   Right clicking on an area USED TO bring up the 30 year avg for Satelite EXTREME LOWS but not any more :(

https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/

This one is awesome for comparisons:   You can zoom to the lat - long - and choose a small area (800 square meters) then choose Record LOWS or HIGHS or median... THEN choose 30 year averages....  Then compile and then download the results as a spreadsheet. XL word file.

http://www.prism.oregonstate.edu/explorer/

 

[rogets395]

Sorry folks.

That didn't work.  Tried to make a graphic to easily compare various locales at a glance but compression made it illegible.

Here are just some separate files.

[rogets395]

Here are some pictures from my own Garden (zone 8b) I used a special "method" I fantasize HELPS to shift the DNA to tolerate better cold.  I gently stratify the seeds in Freezer gradually increasing. (keep very dry)  I have found with Washingtonia filifera that no Freezing on the seeds SEEMS to mean the offspring don't seem to tolerate the cold as well.

Freezing the seeds for up to a day (try several varying degrees) or more seems to make the offspring more cold hardy.

I had articles published in South Texas chapter IPS many years ago -- Dr. Bill Bittle (Palm specialty Botanist studied Palms Springs W. filfera for many years.)  My articles regarded the implausibility of "filibusta" hybrids.  (nearly 50 million years and no definite species... simply a varietal form -- long perianths preclude cross pollinization from competing trees.  Extremely stable genus and one of the OLDEST if not the forefather to ALL protopalms since it is in the fossil record so extensively.)  It's far more likely that differences are from widely varying factors in environment (shade, moisture, root competition, soil compaction, soil quality, leaf-pruning, feeding, heat, cold, light, and even barometric pressure etc. an extremely stable Genus with a main proto-species being filifera and the younger genetic varietal robusta found further south from which other coryphoidiae may have sprung.)

Pics below:  (seedlings)  all completely unscathed after as low as 17 deg. F. for many hours.

Order was messed up. In order from top to bottom:

Butia odorata with a Phoenix dactylifera / Butia capitata /   Brahea armata  / Phoenix dactilifera (male) with small Wash. f / Phoenix d. with T. f. /  Butia capitata / Trachycarpus fortunei  / then lastly a Trachy with leaves very heavy with snow and a very TINY JUVENILE Butyagrus Nabonandii --

What is not shown are numerous rare Trachys (still alive - transplanted to a new place) and 6 very healthy Butia x Syagrus nabonandii in their 5 year.

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by rogets395

[rogets395]

6 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not even close to a coconut ( in Escondido ) ..Pretty certain that is a  Howea forsteriana,  Pretty old specimen too.. 


Wouldn't doubt there are Coconuts somewhere in / near Yuma .. Thing is, most people don't obsess over them, and won't post pictures..

I agree. It appears to be a Howea.  a pretty old one. 

It's too cold consistently daytime (below 50 f) for coconuts on West Coast.

Most people think Phoenix canariensis are coconuts....  LOL so there's that.

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, rogets395 said:

I agree. It appears to be a Howea.  a pretty old one. 

It's too cold consistently daytime (below 50 f) for coconuts on West Coast.

Most people think Phoenix canariensis are coconuts....  LOL so there's that.

Oh, if you search through enough threads here, you'll find a few " decent " near coastal Coconuts around San Diego and the Los Angeles area.  Then there are the ones near Palm Springs and one specimen in Corona.

Newport Coconut was never cared for correctly, and was planted in a horrible position. Gone now regardless.. Personally never counted it as something to base whether or not they could survive out there anyway.. 

There's a post that can be searched for here of a much nicer looking specimen in either Orange or Los Angeles County  that provides a better gauge of potential ( for growing them out there ) Poster has never updated any info on it / whether it has ever produced ..or tried to produce fruit though.

Anything is possible, but don't recall ever met someone who confused Canary Islands w/ Coconuts..  even the blackest thumbs / least plant aware people i've ever known.

[Xerarch]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

don't recall ever met someone who confused Canary Islands w/ Coconuts..  even the blackest thumbs / least plant aware people i've ever known.

Uh, I've met MANY people who, upon me bringing up palms, will say, "oh you mean there's more than one kind?" That includes people who grew up in palmy locations.

[rogets395]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Oh, if you search through enough threads here, you'll find a few " decent " near coastal Coconuts around San Diego and the Los Angeles area.  Then there are the ones near Palm Springs and one specimen in Corona.

Newport Coconut was never cared for correctly, and was planted in a horrible position. Gone now regardless.. Personally never counted it as something to base whether or not they could survive out there anyway.. 

There's a post that can be searched for here of a much nicer looking specimen in either Orange or Los Angeles County  that provides a better gauge of potential ( for growing them out there ) Poster has never updated any info on it / whether it has ever produced ..or tried to produce fruit though.

Anything is possible, but don't recall ever met someone who confused Canary Islands w/ Coconuts..  even the blackest thumbs / least plant aware people i've ever known.

Wow!  That's wild! I'm glad I'm totally wrong about that.

Now I intend to look that up... (unless you have a convenient link for me   )  

There's a coconut (as I've said) in St. Augustine in a bank parking lot... it freezes to death every winter and then takes all summer to come back.   

I misspoke on the coconuts in Pinellas Park.... the DO have coconuts (updated on the photo... ) from a dif angle they are clearly there. When I lived there I never saw any. So perhaps it just now matured.  always someone to push limits.  I would be interested in the quality of Coconuts on West coast.  Avalon is 10b but the hills are 11a which is the mildest clime in the West (not HI)

Only two or three other spots of 11a  according to maps.  Santa Monica right on coast / Malibu / San Pedro peninsula in Palos Verdes Estates and up in the hills above Santa Monica / Malibu some spotty areas.  (meaning avg. lowest lows around 45) (all accd. to maps...)  Always someone who has a micro-climate though that can't be seen on any map.

I've never been a great lover of Coconut palms but like to see where the limits are.   

Yes I have met people who asked me if the Large Canariensis in my yard was a Coconut.  I also had a person send me a photo once said he was on the beach in Hawaii sunning under a coconut "tree" had an induplicate pinnate leaf draped over his shoulder... KEK.    Of course the only pinnate that I know of that is induplicate is Phoenix.  It was clearly a P. canariensis...

I had other people ask if the dates will grow larger -- What do you mean I asked... Will they make coconuts?

Ok.  so yes it happens.

There are people who think Washingtonia are tropical too.  so...

[rogets395]

5 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Uh, I've met MANY people who, upon me bringing up palms, will say, "oh you mean there's more than one kind?" That includes people who grew up in palmy locations.

Yes... I agree that has happened to me too.  What I find really strange is that some can't seem to tell there are differences in fans and pinnate palms.  (from a distance).

and yes that even includes people who grew up in palmy locations.

[rogets395]

I should clarify... It's not that I don't "like" Cocos -- it's more that I'm not really that interested in Tropicals if they can't be grown outside of their zone at all.

The exception for me are mostly Two crownshaft palms: Roystonea and Archontophoenix... specifically cunninghamiana 

IF anyone has ANY information about Archies grown in HOT zones... in Arizona I'd love to hear about it.

I can't even count how many I've killed over the last 40 years.

Clearly archies have no problem with some Cold... in certain places (like Lake Elsinore... all kinds growing around it's shores...)  It's 9b there but with some cold snaps way down to the teens.  Yet they seem to thrive fine there.  It's the heat or wide swings or duration or maybe the lack of humidity that seems to be death in my experience.

Edited January 11, 2022 by rogets395

[Silas_Sancona]

1 minute ago, Xerarch said:

Uh, I've met MANY people who, upon me bringing up palms, will say, "oh you mean there's more than one kind?" That includes people who grew up in palmy locations.

Interesting, Not being aware of the full diversity of palm sp. yes, had plenty of good discussions w/ folks about that.. Difference between Coconuts and Phoenix?  guess i never crossed paths w/ people who couldn't tell the difference between the two,  esp. in California or FL. 

[96720]

I believe @aztropic has grown archies only in shade they won’t take our blasting sun I think that is also the problem with coconut palms our sun just fries them that’s why I am a roystonea nut they take our sun and our cold 

[rogets395]

9 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Interesting, Not being aware of the full diversity of palm sp. yes, had plenty of good discussions w/ folks about that.. Difference between Coconuts and Phoenix?  guess i never crossed paths w/ people who couldn't tell the difference between the two,  esp. in California or FL. 

There are many. My own sister still can't tell the difference between fan palm and pinnate. -- she was raised on a Farm. It's just that they are simply NOT interested in any way. It's very simple.

I know plenty of people who can't tell the differences between plants.  It's extremely common. If you mention a Latin name (because that's how you know the plant) their eyes roll back into their heads. 

[rogets395]

9 minutes ago, 96720 said:

I believe @aztropic has grown archies only in shade they won’t take our blasting sun I think that is also the problem with coconut palms our sun just fries them that’s why I am a roystonea nut they take our sun and our cold 

Yes, I have always kept archies in Shade.  But outright heat can be deadly too.  I think Bullhead city is (as a rule) hotter more brutal than Phoenix... definitely drier.  (because of so many plants growing - esp. in Scottsdale and all the agriculture allows some humidity to stay in the air. Plus you have monsoons which also add humidity.  Yuma has more humidity than Bullhead. 

I agree. I am very interested in Roystoneas.  There are amazingly few growing even in San Diego  / L.A. -- more now that Moon Valley grows hundreds of them. 

Thank you for the Tip!! 

[Silas_Sancona]

58 minutes ago, rogets395 said:

Wow!  That's wild! I'm glad I'm totally wrong about that.

Now I intend to look that up... (unless you have a convenient link for me   )  

There's a coconut (as I've said) in St. Augustine in a bank parking lot... it freezes to death every winter and then takes all summer to come back.   

I misspoke on the coconuts in Pinellas Park.... the DO have coconuts (updated on the photo... ) from a dif angle they are clearly there. When I lived there I never saw any. So perhaps it just now matured.  always someone to push limits.  I would be interested in the quality of Coconuts on West coast.  Avalon is 10b but the hills are 11a which is the mildest clime in the West (not HI)

Only two or three other spots of 11a  according to maps.  Santa Monica right on coast / Malibu / San Pedro peninsula in Palos Verdes Estates and up in the hills above Santa Monica / Malibu some spotty areas.  (meaning avg. lowest lows around 45) (all accd. to maps...)  Always someone who has a micro-climate though that can't be seen on any map.

I've never been a great lover of Coconut palms but like to see where the limits are.   

Yes I have met people who asked me if the Large Canariensis in my yard was a Coconut.  I also had a person send me a photo once said he was on the beach in Hawaii sunning under a coconut "tree" had an induplicate pinnate leaf draped over his shoulder... KEK.    Of course the only pinnate that I know of that is induplicate is Phoenix.  It was clearly a P. canariensis...

I had other people ask if the dates will grow larger -- What do you mean I asked... Will they make coconuts?

Ok.  so yes it happens.

There are people who think Washingtonia are tropical too.  so...

Not wrong at all.. There are definitely  no " exceptional " coconut specimens, that i'm aware of / have seen posted from out there - yet -  Sure the time will come sooner rather than later though that nice ones are observed..  That said, the few that have been observed look pretty darn good - by California / West Coast standards..

No links necessary, " search " option is good for personal research...

The map of where zone 11 exists around S. Cal.  is likely underestimated ( ...and now a touch out of date )  Wouldn't be shocked if 11 extends down the coast from roughly Malibu to Tijuana in the next  official   update. 

Avalon / other Islands are more perplexing..  Minus Avalon itself, i highly doubt anyone would be able to fully test the idea of growing Coconuts on any of them ( State / Federal Park service would likely remove any discovered )

The trouble with the definition of " Tropical " is many people assume Tropical means steamy / wet / always hot jungle.. That's the farthest from the truth..  By many definitions, Sonoran Desert eco-region is considered tropical, as are many of the plants here.  Dry tropics are also considered the most diverse " portion "  of the " tropics " as well.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[rogets395]

5 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not wrong at all.. There are definitely  no " exceptional " coconut specimens, that i'm aware of / have seen posted from out there - yet -  Sure the time will come sooner rather than later though that nice ones are observed..  That said, the few that have been observed look pretty darn good - by California / West Coast standards..

No links necessary, " search " option is good for personal research...

The map of where zone 11 exists around S. Cal.  is likely underestimated ( ...and now a touch out of date )  Wouldn't be shocked if 11 extends down the coast from roughly Malibu to Tijuana in the next  official   update. 

Avalon / other Islands are more perplexing..  Minus Avalon itself, i highly doubt anyone would be able to fully test the idea of growing Coconuts on any of them ( State / Federal Park service would likely remove any discovered )

The trouble with the definition of " Tropical " is many people assume Tropical means steamy / wet / always hot jungle.. That's the farthest from the truth..  By many definitions, Sonoran Desert eco-region is considered tropical, as are many of the plants here.  Dry tropics are also considered the most diverse " portion "  of the " tropics " as well.

Yes a lot of areas of Northern central Mexico are "dry" tropics.  That said - I use the term tropical to mean Freezes a seriously horrible death below 41 degrees....  LOL

P.S.  the new 'zone' map that I was using for 11a just came out of PRISM a month or so ago... so it might change a bit summer.

Edited January 11, 2022 by rogets395

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, rogets395 said:

Yes a lot of areas of Northern central Mexico are "dry" tropics.  That said - I use the term tropical to mean Freezes a seriously horrible death below 41 degrees....  LOL

P.S.  the new 'zone' map that I was using for 11a just came out of PRISM a month or so ago... so it might change a bit summer.

30 yr averages were updated, but the last plant map PRISM released was back in 2012. Suspect an update will be put together in the next year or two..   https://prism.oregonstate.edu/projects/plant_hardiness_zones.php

[jwhardenus]

Hello all, new member. I hope this post is ok here in the AZ thread.

  I retired and moved from CA to Lake Havasu AZ. Bought a house with lots of palm trees, large and small. I know next to nothing about palm trees.

Some of the dwarf pygmy palms have died, 3 were dead when escrow close in June, I have 3 left that seems to doing well.

 My 1st question is this a Washingtonia Robusta ?

 2 I want to move it, not very big trunk is @ 2' tall. I am preparing the spot now,  then I will tie up the fronds, and dig it up @ 1' out from trunk. I plan to plant it the same depth.

 Any advice or issues with my plan?

 

 Second picture is of 1 of my Pygmy date palms? I think. This one looks boarder line healthy. Need advise on how to keep these healthy.  

[96720]

Phoenix robellines need a lot of water they are almost aquatic 

[rogets395]

Phoenix roebelini do well there -- I don't know what's wrong with yours -  - Maybe water like has been said. They are frost sensitive unlike the dactylifera can be. (see my dactylifera covered with snow which endured 17 no problems) Havasu has cold pockets but 10a down by River and up for a bit on the slopes at least. Higher up it's 9b or a.

 

It's hard to Tell a robusta from a filifera when they are young.  But filifera still start getting a thicker trunk earlier.  Some say you can see red streaks in the abaxial view of petiole...  I don't think this is always true. 

if it was a nursery purchased planting - it is not so common to find filifera being sold so it would most likely be a robusta.  But there are a lot of filifera in Havasu City in yards... and within bird flight range in wild locations   -- that being said it would be very unlikely someone at any nursery could tell you anyway even if they are knowledgeable. . 

I would guess it's a robusta. yes. But since I've seen lots of filifera in Lake Havasu city I don't think you'll know until it gets a couple more years on it.  They grow in the canyons around the areas both South and North of there near springs or washes on both sides of the River.  

(examples around the south and north of river:     34.258027 -114.207760 https://www.google.com/maps/place/34°15'28.9"N+114°12'27.9"W/@34.258027,-114.2083085,166m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x1c64ce6845e5e7dd!7e2!8m2!3d34.2580273!4d-114.2077602 )

also:  34.185709, -114.218725

and:  34.290242, -114.159097

much farther north:  36.445399, -114.212065

and:  36.639072, -114.248448  

(pic is from 36.450311, -114.214954 in Nevada) 

==========================

pic is filifera at a "seep" at the base of "little Finland"  in the Nevada Strip adjoining Arizona strip... extreme north

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by rogets395
repeated word

[rogets395]

Date palm in Grand Canyon - at Diamond Creek 

35.765820, -113.372968

[rogets395]

(People on four wheelers got there from Peach Springs / Hualapai res. going down Diamond creek road - Indian  rural route 6)  (NDN)

[jwhardenus]

Thanks for the replies.

  I haven't got it moved yet, need to move a water line, and finish digging out the move to location. Any soil preparations I should be aware of for the trans plant ?

Even looking up images of the 2 varieties, I can't say which it is, I am leaning toward Robusta. I am better prepared now to compare.  I am sure all the landscaping is nursery planting, the whole lot must have excavated and leveled before building. Landscaping is estimated to be 18 years old. 

 I think we are still in the 10a part of town, only mid way between highway and the higher hill area. No frost yet this year, the forecast near the 1st had a frost warning, but we never went below 38.

 

96760 So we did have some water line issues, plus there was only 1 zone for the whole property. We have 2 now. Also there was a faulty GFI on the water time circuit. since the Phoenix robellines are mixed in with the other, I don't see us running a separate zone and lines just for them. Supplementing hand watering may have to do.

Can they be over watered ?

[bubba]

I know there are many micro-climates in AZ. like Cali. Savant AZ grower, aztropic, is in Mesa, AZ. I do not believe there is anything he cannot grow.

I checked out a weather underground station in Mesa, Az. (KAZMESA518) this morning and noted that the January monthly summary showed high temperature of 76.1F, low temperature of 30.7F with a median of 52F. Is aztropic in a micro-climate or just a wizard?

[Silas_Sancona]

14 minutes ago, bubba said:

I know there are many micro-climates in AZ. like Cali. Savant AZ grower, aztropic, is in Mesa, AZ. I do not believe there is anything he cannot grow.

I checked out a weather underground station in Mesa, Az. (KAZMESA518) this morning and noted that the January monthly summary showed high temperature of 76.1F, low temperature of 30.7F with a median of 52F. Is aztropic in a micro-climate or just a wizard?

Little bit of both..

[rogets395]

5 hours ago, bubba said:

I know there are many micro-climates in AZ. like Cali. Savant AZ grower, aztropic, is in Mesa, AZ. I do not believe there is anything he cannot grow.

I checked out a weather underground station in Mesa, Az. (KAZMESA518) this morning and noted that the January monthly summary showed high temperature of 76.1F, low temperature of 30.7F with a median of 52F. Is aztropic in a micro-climate or just a wizard?

Yes.  I have noticed that.

I'm sure it's a micro-climate and as for "wizard" -- I'm sure it's that as well.   Luther Burbank was definitely one of those.  Things that seem absolutely impossible. 

See:  Secret Life of Plants chapters on Luther Burbank  (Plant wizard of Santa Rosa.) 

[rogets395]

As for Phoenix pigmy -- I have no experience with them...  someone else will need to answer your question.

As for Washingtonia....   The best way to make sure (since Nurseries almost never label them either...  - they often call them robusta-filifera hybrids which is another way of saying we don't know or can't guarantee)  is to simply go collect seed and plant them yourself.

Transplant damage can slow a palm for years putting them into a stunting shock.  A seedling grown in a pot then transplanted to exactly where you want it can out-pace a transplanted Washingtonia in shock - in no time.  

The biggest two differences in my opinion (for someone trying to choose when the climate isn't an issue) is:

The filifera (a well fed / watered one in well drained soil) will get a nice thick elephant leg- sturdy trunk and the Petticoat will be usually very even and neat looking (when left on -- but is always dangerous fire hazard near a building) 

the robusta in same circumstances has a not so neat well kept looking skirt so often looks best to many  if trimmed clean. / grows somewhat faster / can become very tall with a thinner trunk.  Robustas once established can grow very fast under the right circumstances... feet per year.   While a specimen in shock can just sit there for years and do nothing.

Once established they can survive amazing desert torture. Same with dactylifera.

[96720]

Robelenii is from Laos, Vietnam and southern China where it grows along rivers in areas that are periodically flooded so you can see they love water. They also don’t like cold a freeze could damage the fronds but unless it was a hard freeze they come back fairly quickly.