Experimenting with Lytocaryum Weddellianum

[Small palm]

Hey Palmtalk, I am fairly new to growing Palm trees. Started my collection back in August 2012. Right now I am focused on the Lytocaryum Weddellianum Palm. I just recieved 2 of them from a seller on ebay about a week ago. These palms look really nice. The main things that stand out to me with these palms is how glossy and lace like the fronds are.

The reason I say I am experimenting with them is because I ordered 2. One for indoors and one for outdoors. I hope to have good luck in and out.

I have a couple questios too. I would like to eventually grow these if my palms survive and produce seeds. Have any of you had any luck with these palms producing seed indoors? Also how old and big are these palms on average before they start flowering and producing seeds?

Here's a picture of the bigger of my 2 palms. It stands about 3 to 4 feet tall and is going in a mostly shady corner of the backyard.

[Alberto]

You have a nice palm there and it will flower in a few years.

I have palms growing below heavy canopy from the forest and that are producing good seeds now for some years.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Chris, They are very slow growers here in the Bay Area. I have a healthy one in the ground that I planted in 2005 and it's still quite small and has not flowered. It is in fertile soil in the shade and gets watered three times a week. It's the only one I've ever had so I don't have a comparison. Maybe some of our SoCal friends can chime in. By the way, welcome to the board!

[Palm Killer]

Nice starter plant! That palm is on my radar too. Hope all goes well.

[Small palm]

Thanks for the replies and welcome. Wow Jim your palm has been in the ground for sometime. I guess that will make it even better once yours produces seeds. Yeah these palms look great. I'm surprised they are not more popular. I have more pics, but all of them said file too big, except for the one pic I posted.

[awg]

I have 8 seeding specimens, all except two grown from seed by myself.

They start to flower when they have a trunk, between 10 and 15 years old.

Mine flower, but havent set seed in pots, the ones in the ground grow best, some much faster than others.

The best ones will set hundreds of seeds, polinated by wind, bees or ants. Hand pollination is even better.

They like a nice organic soil, we have a temperate climate, but occasional min of 3C or max up to 45, but usually 5 to 37, with 1200mm rain

The best ones are in semi-shade

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this one gets full sun between 10 to 12

[awg]

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here a some L.W that are about 15yrs old, all seeding.

Some seeds have also germinated on the ground...they are very slow growing when they do that...ie max 6 inches tall" after 5 yrs

[Small palm]

@ awg: thanks for the good info. You have some nice looking palms. I was debating between growing mine in a pot or putting it in the ground. I am leaning towards putting it in the ground especially after reading your post. I'm glad to hear they do ok getting some sun. The spot I plan to plant mine gets about 2 hours of sun from about 12 to 2.

[Alberto]

Seeds on a L.wed showing the typical splitting

Second pic :one of my older L.w. growing below dense canopy

Third and forth pic- L. hoehbei

L.wed seedlings below mother tree

[Small palm]

Nice palms Alberto. That's cool you have Lytocaryum Hoehnei in your collection. I know that palm is pretty rare.

Here's the only other pic of my palms that would upload. This is my smaller indoor one.

[Alberto]

Here they are very rarely seen in nurseries. Once in São Paulo state (Holambra) I found 4 big palms and I bought them all. Last I found beautifull fully pinate L hoehnei and also L. insigne at e-jardin and I couldn´t resist and bought 4 L. hoehnei and 8 L.insigne that certainly are cold hardier than weddelianum

[swolf]

Nice palms Alberto. Just to clarify, which is cold hardier than Lytocaryum Wed.-- is it Hoehnei or Insigne or both?

Steve

[Alberto]

L.insigne comes from same region (Rio de Janeiro and Espírito Santo states but at higher altitude) and L. hoehnei comes from my southern state Paraná (and São Paulo) Parque estadual das Lauráceas that is certaily a lot colder than L. weddelianum habitat

[Dave-Vero]

My little L. weddellianum lives outdoors in pretty heavy shade and surrounded by heliconias and Salvia coccinia, which means the other plants need to be cut back periodically. Of course it's been a slow grower, but it has suffered no damage at all in a winter with prolonged near-freezing nights and the next winter, which had a quick freeze down to 26 F. Last month's 30 F also caused no problems, though the caladiums, which were coming out of dry/winter dormancy, are still looking unhappy.

[sashaeffer]

One of the most amazing palms for indoors. While mine that I've had almost 2 years hasn't shown much height growth, it is always throwing out new fronds almost like a fountain. Can't go wrong with these.

[Small palm]

Hey sashaeffer, you're right this palm is great indoors. It also has some respectable cold hardiness outdoors too. I figured I should post the results of my Lytocaryum experiment since it's been a couple years. The results are definitely positive. My largest Lytocaryum has survived temperatures down to about 25*F with and without frost. It came through that cold spell with no problems. To anyone thinking about giving this palm a try, I say go for it. I also see this palm referred to as Syagrus weddelliana, all these scientific names can be confusing.

Here are some pictures of my palms.

The first and second pictures are of my largest palm planted in the ground

The third picture is of my outdoor potted palm

The last picture is my indoor palm

Edited February 22, 2015 by Small palm

[Dave-Vero]

I've added a second little L. weddellianum, which is growing happily under a triangle palm.

[sashaeffer]

I recommend these to anyone wanting a tough, beautiful palm for patio or indoors. Members have taken some great pics for this thread as they don't always show that great in pictures because of fronds being so thin. Too bad too they aren't more commercially available.

[Kailua_Krish]

Its even worth a try in 9a climates, I have 2 that have done well in a more protected area! They're flowering but so far no seeds

[David_Sweden]

I've been growing one indoors for 18 months. Bought from eBay, it came with root mealybugs which I managed to eradicate. It gets no natural light, just a 35W Ceramic Metal Halide spot. First pic is from when just arrived, 2nd pic is from today. The 6 big fronds in the new pic are new since it got here, only the 3 small low ones on the right side are from before arrival:

 

I have one question I hope you can help me with: Do you have any reason to think it is more prone to root rot than any other palm?

Reason for asking is that Palmpedia says "This palm should be grown in well draining soil that is constantly moist, but not soggy, as this can lead to lethal root rot". For that reason I have been withholding water 1-2 days longer that I otherwise would (not dry, just very low on moisture). However I am contemplating ignoring this advice.

As you can see it seems quite happy. It was 2 months 1 week between the last 2 fronds. However it keeps getting brown tips. 

I'm aware of the warnings it is hard to grow indoors, but I have taken several measures: Automatic control of humidifier (varies within 45 to 55%RH, according to a precision hygrometer), an extra humidity boost every winter morning to ~60%RH which stays above 50%RH for several hours (before which I aerate the flat for a few minutes), RO filtered water, far away from windows and drafts, check soil moisture level before watering. Same dose of fertilizer as for my other palms (half dose of liquid fert). Roots looked very healthy at last repotting.

It is only about a centimeter of each tip that goes to waste so it still looks nice but I was hoping with the measures I took it would go even better. So now I am asking myself if it really is prone to root rot or if perhaps I should keep the soil slightly more wet (water one day earlier) to avoid the brown tips.

Lovely palm, like a slender Dwarf Date Palm.

[Pal Meir]

Getting brown/dried tips during winter can have several reasons, but the most likely ones are (1) soggy soil (= inadequate not well draining soil mix) and/or (2) over-fertilizing. Don’t worry about humidity. (During the heating period I have 35-50% RH in my home-office.)

[Pal Meir]

Addendum: If an humus-rich inadequate soil mix is all the time only moist it may get mouldy. So you should use a mix which you can water regularly without getting soggy or only moist and mouldy.

[Pal Meir]

My home office at present: 21.6°C / 48.5% RH. One central heating (with very dry air!) is behind the curtain. And behind the curtain on the left there are three further L. insigne standing on the window sill.

[David_Sweden]

Thanks Pal. Nice pic. But the soil I added contains ~30% 2-3mm sized sand (and some coarse peat which also causes drainage) which should create proper drainage to my knowledge. Needs water every 6 days if I let it become just barely moist. How often du you water yours?

I thought these thin narrow leaves require high humidity to stay perfectly green? You have no brown tips at all?

 

[Pal Meir]

On the 1st photo you see an old leaf (since May 2014) with brown tips, on the 2nd photo a newer frond (since June 2016) of the same palm. — As I have documented on another thread I don’t use sand or moss for my L-wedd soil: only pine bark + Seramis ± LECA (3rd & 4th photo). — The watering depends on the size of my pots: L 1, M 2, S 3 times a week.

 

[David_Sweden]

Thanks. Hard to see but it looks like most tips on the left side are brown? I'm surprised if no one but me has some trouble with effects of low humidity on palm leaves. As Palmbob wrote: "Humidity is probably the biggest limiting factor in keeping indoor palms healthy, with lighting being a close second." and in my experience the most sensitive leaves are the thin ones.

Anyway, my main question was if you agree with the quote "This palm should be grown in well draining soil that is constantly moist, but not soggy, as this can lead to lethal root rot." being especially applicable to Lytocaryum weddellianum? I know it applies in general for all plants, but is Lytocaryum weddellianum more sensitive to root rot than other palms?

Googling gives me the following chain of evidence: I find the quote on 3 sites: Wikipedia (which is not trustworthy for palm details) and they say Junglemusic is their source, but this is incorrect, the text is not found on junglemusic.net. And Palmpedia has it. But I think the source for them both is Plantsrescue (exact same words, and Palmpedia mentions Plantsrescue). Are Plantsrescue trustworthy? Never heard of them. Seems to be an Australian plant growing company? This is the only source which says Lytocaryum weddellianum is particularily sensitive to root rot. I usually use a bunch of sources I consider trustworthy, they do not mention this.

Has anyone in this forum ever killed a Lytocaryum weddellianum because of root rot?

[David_Sweden]

Well I think I can answer my original question now, i e whether Lytocaryum weddellianum is more sensitive to root rot than other palms (as asserted by Palmpedia and Wikipedia). It is not. For 2 months now I have watered it one day earlier than before (roughly down from every 7 to every 6 days), and yesterday took the pot off and had a peek and there is no sign of root rot and it is growing as fast as usual. I use a moisture meter to check moisture level and until 2 monts ago I watered it when no part was more than "moist" (i e all parts far from wet, and some rather dry) but the last 2 months I watered it when some minor area was (barely) wet and 90% was moist and no part dry. I would describe this as "normal watering". Soil in pots often have a gradient (i e irregular distribution of water) which most people are blissfully unaware of since they don't use a moisture meter and/or use soil where the meter does not work, and this is for several reasons.

I also saw another interesting thing when I looked at the soil. I repotted it on November 20th to a pot just slightly wider but much taller, maybe 6-7 cm. When I took the pot off yesterday, the bottom ~5cm remained in the pot and there was only one small root going into that part, which broke off. The soil at the bottom was rather compact. I had noticed that there were gradients two unusual ways: One is that it was driest a few cm from the bottom and more moist above and below that level, and another is an irregularity sideways. It seems to me that this palm is unusually bad at piercing through mildly compact soil. And it might well be for the same reason there has been some yellow tips. So for this palm I think one should be careful to keep the soil extra loose.

Compare this to my Lipstick Palm which I repotted into the same size of pot Sep 25th, and which since long has reached all bottom holes with (small) roots and has perfectly green leaves. Or a Phoenix roebelenii whose roots are really aggressive, and for a good reason, since they naturally grow in rivers. The Lytocaryum weddellianum maybe has no reason to have roots that are even the slightest aggressive and considering it only becomes 2-3m high and live in a damp place I'm guessing the roots maybe don't aim at going too far down. With my Lipstick there is no risk for low oxygen level despite soil since the roots themselves create aeration by being all over and of good size. That's my theory anyway. Might also explain why Pal's change of soil was an improvement.

[David_Sweden]

I'm happy to say I now have a soil mix and watering scheme that works. The last 3 fronds are all green at least to a normal observer.

A tricky thing with these very narrow leaves is that the last 1-2 cm suddenly go down in width even more to go below even 1mm, and it is hard to avoid this part getting brown. On the 3rd newest frond, 3 of the 100 leaves have brown tips 3-4mm and on the 2nd newest only one (the newest frond at the top has none but also hasn't opened up fully yet), and there also are a number of fronds which are yellow/brown ~1mm at the tip but that is barely noticeably even if you are a 1dm distance with perfect vision holding a flashlight.. I think that is negligible, and I'm very happy with it now anyway. The old fronds could have 1-2cm of brown on many tips, quite noticeable.

I'm using a mix of 70% coir and 30% seramis, and a liquid fert specifically intended for coir called Gold Label Coco A+B, and watering when a cheap moisture meter (the kind with 1 metal probe and a scale to 10) shows mostly 3-4 and at the bottom around 5, also adding H2O2 to reach 0,08% and using RO water. I'm not at all sure RO water and special fert has any effect and I do not feel coir is a universal good soil but it seems to work here. Maybe it likes the higher pH? Could also try skipping H2O2 in the future. Two major roots have come up and gone down again and 2dm of thick root sticking out the bottom but needs watering only every 5½-6 days and soil is quite loose so can see no need for repotting in a long while. A major point is that I water before it goes dry, it is always quite moist.

At the top center slightly to the right is the 2nd newest frond, has only opened up half way yet:

A funny thing: If you compare this frond to the one below, the old one has at least twice the total frond area. I used to think (while it was doing badly) smaller new fronds are due to not being happy. But I counted the leaves and the old, big one has 45 leaves each side and the new one 50. I always thought palm leaves reach a certain size & position and after that stay "frozen" forever (besides the gradual bending downwards) but now I'm wondering: Do the old leaves of this palm increase in size over time, long after the petiole is fully out?!

[Pal Meir]

@David_Sweden Palms don’t have any secondary leaf growth. The reason why older fronds are larger than newer ones can have different reasons like more sun (leaves getting compact) or too little water (growth delay), e.g. But your palm looks very happy. — Brown tips of leaflets are not the result of too little humidity but mostly a problem of soggy getting soil during the dark or cold seasons.

[David_Sweden]

My Lytocaryum weddellianum is attempting to flower. I saw it a few weeks back, but it failed, it dried up:

Then today I noticed it is trying again, on the back side of the stem, a bit hard to see, look at the right side:

The new growth is still greenish & soft & healthy. I write because I wonder if anyone has tips to increase the odds of it not giving up? Like more or less light or different color. Or keeping it more or less moist? Here's the whole thing, sorry for bad pic, due to sunshine:

Edited February 22, 2021 by David_Sweden

[David_Sweden]

Bump. It keeps trying and failing. I thought palm trees flowered maybe once per year but this has been trying maybe 4 times the last year. Here are pics from today. The last one is still alive but I suspect it won't be for long.

Any ideas what can make it pull through?

• More or less light, or different color? There's plenty of web pages about weed plants online and how they use different color light depending on if flowering or not. I use two CMH spots, one 70W/12deg and one 35W/12deg in ceiling at ~3,2 meter distance, so that most leaves have 1-2 klux
• Soil is coir with 30% Seramis, I water it once per week, with liquid fertilizer intended for coir, by then it is usually just slightly moist, e g last time a cheap moisture meter showed 3 +/-1 on a scale to 10. I add a very slight amount of H2O2 to the watering can (about 20mL 12% H2O2 per 1,5L water)
• Humidity 40-50% RH

[Scott W]

Nice looking palm, wish I could help.  All mine are growing either in the ground or pots outdoors.

[kinzyjr]

9 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

Any ideas what can make it pull through?

Do you have a heat mat that you could use to provide bottom heat so the soil temperatures stay up a bit?

[David_Sweden]

Thanks. I do own a heat mat. Room temperature is 22-23 degC. Do you think higher soil temp is important for flowering and not drying out?

Here's a recent pic of the whole palm btw. It keeps putting on new fronds without dropping almost any old ones. Funny how the lowest fronds reach below soil level, if it was outdoors they would be way down into the dirt.

PS The 70W lamp is a "Philips MASTERColour CDM-T 70W/942 G12 1CT Elite". "942" means color is "cool white" which is very much like sun light mid day, very white, 4200K (you feel like you're on a tropical island). It also exists as color code "930" which is "warm white" (3000K) i e a bit yellowish.

Edited November 9, 2021 by David_Sweden
Added lamp data

[kinzyjr]

21 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

Thanks. I do own a heat mat. Room temperature is 22-23 degC. Do you think higher soil temp is important for flowering and not drying out?

It can't hurt to try it at this point.  The reason for my suggestion is that the symptoms sound similar to coconuts that are grown in climates with enough heat to keep them alive, but not enough heat to consistently produce viable fruit (Ex. Bermuda)

https://www.thebermudian.com/home-a-garden/garden/field-notes-the-coconut/

In Bermuda, the coconut is cultivated as an ornamental plant only. Although h it does produce fruit occasionally, these rarely develop properly; in most cases when the nuts are cut open there is nothing more than a mass of fibre.

[David_Sweden]

Thanks. I'll bring out the heat mat. And maybe I should start reading The Bermudian :-)

[David_Sweden]

Hello again.  My Mini Coconut Palm is having some more severe problems I think, related to what I already wrote. 

During the last 18 months it has time after time tried to grow a flower stalk, with no pause, at the expense of growth and greenness (and size) of leaves. I think it must have tried over 10 times. It keeps failing: Soon after small buds emerge, the whole thing dries up:

I haven't had a high priority to actually make it bloom and get fruits (yet). My concern right now is how new fronds have partly brown leaves already. It seems to focus all energy on those flower attempts it seems. Almost seems like monocarpic behaviour.. This is the whole palm a week ago:

And here are two historic pics from Nov 2020 and Sep 2021 respectively:

On March 1st 2020 I moved to a smaller apartment. Dec 20th I for the first time saw an inflorescence. And since 2019 I noticed that newer fronds are smaller than the old ones (see earlier posts above). One thing that indicates it is doing ok is that it has hardly ever dropped an old frond, I think maybe twice the last 5 years, and last time I can't remember, over 2 years ago. I water it once per week and by then the soil is just slightly moist, so I see no reason to pot it up or change soil (which is 70% coir and 30% seramis) or watering scheme. I believe new fronds keep coming but they are small and partly brown early on (even whole leaves) and don't unfold as quickly as before. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to look into this the last 2 years (and 2 friends slept in this room for 1½ year so it was more difficult to access it) and since I didn't look very closely and attentively, I didn't see anything to be concerned about (except a bit more brown tips on old fronds than usual).

I don't know what to suspect. I stumbled into those very active forums for growing pot and I noticed they have different color of light depending on if it is growing phase or flowering phase (yellow-ish or blue-ish), could it be the color of the light that promotes flowering? I haven't made any mentionable changes the last >2 years, one small detail is that I put a bunch of stainless bolts at one side to make sure it will not tip over, but being stainless I can't imagine them causing enough chemical reactions to be a problem.  Any ideas anyone? Experience from growing this palm? Or having seen similar behaviour before?

[Fishinsteeg234]

I would try up potting it. It appears to have been in the same size pot for several years. Let those roots spread out more, as if naturally in ground, and maybe it will hold some fruit. Great looking palm though. 

[Fishinsteeg234]

2 hours ago, Fishinsteeg234 said:

I would try up potting it. It appears to have been in the same size pot for several years. Let those roots spread out more, as if naturally in ground, and maybe it will hold some fruit. Great looking palm though. 

This pic from PalmPedia shows a larger pot, with some fruit holding. Maybe it’s a root bound issue. 

[David_Sweden]

Thanks. Maybe you're right. It's been in the same pot for 5 years. I have another dwarf palm, Chamaedorea Radicalis (grown from a seed I got from DoomsDave 6 years ago), which I potted up just 3 months ago, because it got very nearly dry if I watered it once per week (meanwhile I solved that issue by giving it a sip of water in the middle of the week too, worked fine). This, too, attempts to start inflorescence a few times per year, until the point when it has a bunch of small buds, then it gives up (water leaks out through the buds, then it turns brown) but this did not improve after repotting, and it does not have any bad symptoms besides the fact that the inflorescence doesn't develop very far. It had been in the previous pot for 3 years. But the Ch radicalis was always easier to understand and handle, it seems quite predictable that after 2-3 years I'd better pot up or it will dry up quickly, and if I sometimes did some minor mistake there was never any visible bad effects.  And soil was quite evenly moist. The Mini Coconut always was trickier and more sensitive. This is the Ch radicalis (triplet) a week ago and also last year in the previous pot (more severe symptoms of being rootbound than the Mini Coconut, still seemed to be doing very well): 

But the Mini Coconut Palm after 1 week is not dry: I use a simple "metal rod type" moisture meter and it is mostly 3 to 5 on a scale to 10 (one can't blindly trust these simple meters but I have checked that it is almost at 10 when newly watered), except near the bottom which is dryer. Historically I have worried more about it staying too moist, so I have since many years added some H2O2 when watering to give it some extra oxygen (see earlier post above). And for dwarf palms I would expect them to reach a certain pot size and be happy with that. There indeed are a couple of coarse roots at the top, and the stem starts about 5 centimeters above the surface, which could indicate there's a lot of roots. Still, if it was filled with roots I would expect it to go dry within a few days after watering. And I can stick the rod down all the way without meeting much resistance if I try 2-3 times, while at other spots roots stop me. Another, related idea could be if the soil has started to break down, still coir+seramis should be one of the best choices. I would be worried giving it a much bigger pot, especially if it is deeper since historically the bottom used to be wettest. But I suppose I could try to pot it up to a pot a bit wider and only a couple of centimeters deeper. 

The lamps I have been using are two ceramic metal halide spotlights, ceiling mounted, at about 4 meters distance: One 70W and one 35W, both 12 degrees beam width and 3000K. 3000K is what is also called "warm white" i e slightly yellow-ish. They also exist as 4200K, also called "cold white" (slightly blue-ish). According to pot growers, yellow or red promotes flower growth. So maybe I should try changing to 4200K? Historically I have used both 4200K and 3000K, I never noticed any difference on the plants.