King Palm Root Systems and Watering Questions

[smotrs]

I'm wanting to plant a couple doubles and a triple in the corner of my yard, see attached layout upper right corner. Palms will initially be about 6-8ft tall, but I plan on living there for a while and hope to see them full grown or close to eventually. Sandy soil type conditions so drainage is pretty good with very minor slope, maybe 5 degrees max.

I've seen plenty of threads about putting several drip systems around the trees and watering long and slow to achieve nice deep watering. Lots of good information. But I'm wondering if people have used any of the root watering systems like the Rainbird RWS, Hunter Industries RWS or even the Deep Drip systems? I actually have the Rainbird RWS's in the front and side yard installed by the builders. The front and side trees all seem to be pretty happy with the setup and everything I read says watering at the roots is a plus so that's the way I'm leaning.

When the backyard was done though, my contractor didn't put in a seperate zone just for trees, my bad for not specifying. So I have only one zone that does the entire planter areas shown around the perimeter of the backyard. Due to concrete I can't easily add another zone around the entire area. So I may have to make due with what I have. Which means, I'm not sure how I would go about doing a system like the Rainbird RWS as I don't have a seperate zone of PVC to connect them to. So I'm thinking I may have to resort to something like the Deep Drip system I mention above. The only zone other then grass I have is the blue line of 1/2in flex I indicate on the layout. I am planning on adding the red line because my girlfriend wants to do a garden on that side of the yard.

My questions though are the following,

• If you have a similar setup like I describe above with your zones, did you install an RWS system like Rainbird or Hunter's? How did you go about doing it?
• Has anyone had experience or used the Deep Drip system with their palms or trees?
• How deep will the root systems get for a King Palm so if I go with something like a Deep Drip or RWS I will know what depth size to buy?

Thanks for any insite.

[sonoranfans]

shaun,

If you have high drainage sandy soil, you don't have to worry about watering deeply, it drains down fast. In my ultra sandy florida soils, drippers are useless, I go with microsprinklers. Drippers in sandy soil create a tall and narrow moisture plume in the soil, leading to wet spots in a dry background. this would not be good for a king that likes to be wet. If you are in zone 10, I would also encourage you to look at maximas, alexandre, tuckeri,or myolensis kings instead of the big box store cunninghanianas as these look much prettier in full sun, and have nicer crowns and crownshafts. I am starting to think way too many people plant these cunninghanianas in socal as they actually look better, more lush in part shade. I see these every day in OC in full sun and they just don't look nearly as good as the others. these other species of archontophoenix(kings) are typically not available in big box stores, but they are easily found at the many specialty nurseries in socal. You should talk to some of your fellow socal growers about this.

Edited May 16, 2013 by sonoranfans

[MattyB]

If you already have 1/2" flex line in the area of the king palms, shown in blue on your illustration (low pressure drip irrigation I assume), then why don't you just use that to run your root watering system for those trees? Here's a tip: save the money and don't mess with fancy deep root watering systems, just use a digging bar and poke some deep holes at the emitter locations. Fill those holes with some compost and you're done. Maybe once a year you can go repoke the holes, throw a handfull of fetilizer down there and you're all set. Keep it simple.

[KennyRE317]

Haha, this thread gave me a deja vu type of feeling with all my posts. I'm still in he process of the remodel but i also didn't plan for a 3rd zone in a particular area for my hot and shade houses, might be better for me since I can run it on its own dedicated timing system. What I'm planning on doing is "T" ing off where my valves are and installing a 3rd zone with its own dedicated in line timer. I'll then just run 1/2" flex pipe to where I need it to go whether I use it just for the palms in the entire yard or i dedicate it to a drip system to keep my seedlings and potted palms happy

My main pipes are all under concrete already but there's enough space around the dirt for me to get to the main lines

[sonoranfans]

If you already have 1/2" flex line in the area of the king palms, shown in blue on your illustration (low pressure drip irrigation I assume), then why don't you just use that to run your root watering system for those trees? Here's a tip: save the money and don't mess with fancy deep root watering systems, just use a digging bar and poke some deep holes at the emitter locations. Fill those holes with some compost and you're done. Maybe once a year you can go repoke the holes, throw a handfull of fetilizer down there and you're all set. Keep it simple.

Shaun,

Matty has installed a lot of drip in socal at his manambe lavatka estate, you would be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgeable.

[DoomsDave]

Shaun:

Welcome to our merry band!

You have come to the right place with a question like yours.

As for details on drip, Matt is one of the kings.

As for the palms, where is your garden located? Kings do much better in some places than others. The closer to the ocean the better. I assume you've already considered that, but just in case you haven't . . .

What kind of soil do you have? Kings LOVE clay, if well-amended. It holds lots of water, which the kings love to drink copiously. If you have sandy soil, there are people on PT who can help with that.

I've got lots of King relatives in the ground, and they've been very fast.

[smotrs]

Sonorafan, honestly, I'm not 100% sure I have sandy soil but I've been told I do. When I perform the squeeze test on it, it stays clumped in my hand until I start poking at it. Then it breaks apart. I always thought that was loamy, but I could be wrong.

I also noticed that when my current drip systems water around some of my sagos and rose bushes, that the water will stay in the basin for a little while and not drain as fast as I thought sandy soil would.

Also, when looking at the USDA zoning map, it shows I'm at the left most edge if the 9b, couple miles west of the 10a. Driving around my area, I've seen a few Kings in various stages of growth.

[smotrs]

Matty, that's another reason why I was wondering if the Deep Drip was ok or not. One, it's cheap, under $10, two I can feed my emitters into it and have the water go to where the roots are. And when I need to add a fertilizer stick, I can just drop it down into the pipe.

I'm most likely gonna end up having to use my existing dip system, I just want to make sure the trees are getting enough water where they need it.

Going to go Google digging bar now. :-)

[smotrs]

Kenny, I know how you feel. My problem is where my valves are the lines run under the concrete to get to the grass zone and drip system zone. So adding another would be a pain in the butt.

So I will most likely have to use my existing drip zone as Matty suggested. :-D

[smotrs]

Dave, thank you for the welcome, appreciate it.

From reading a number of posts I pretty much gathered Matty knew allot about drips. So I was actually hoping he would chime in as he did.

I'm actually located in zone 9b just east of 10a by a couple miles or so. Looking around my area, I do see other Kinds in various stages of growth. Which is one of the things I wanted to make sure if before getting Kings.

I'm honestly not positive on the type of soil I have. When I self check it based on some 'soil type' websites, I would have fussed it was loamy, but I've been told it's sandy, do I don't know for sure. That's something else I want to verify.

[DoomsDave]

Dave, thank you for the welcome, appreciate it.

From reading a number of posts I pretty much gathered Matty knew allot about drips. So I was actually hoping he would chime in as he did.

I'm actually located in zone 9b just east of 10a by a couple miles or so. Looking around my area, I do see other Kinds in various stages of growth. Which is one of the things I wanted to make sure if before getting Kings.

I'm honestly not positive on the type of soil I have. When I self check it based on some 'soil type' websites, I would have fussed it was loamy, but I've been told it's sandy, do I don't know for sure. That's something else I want to verify.

Use the USDA zones with caution!

Where is your garden (city, more or less, or section if large)?

[smotrs]

Use the USDA zones with caution!

Where is your garden (city, more or less, or section if large)?

You know, I always wondered how accurate those thing were. I'm actually at the very bottom South/West of Fontana at the base of the Jurupa Mountain(s). If you punch in Fontana, Ca. zipcode 92337 and look at a Google map, you will see the following, I'm in the area highlighted in Red.

[DoomsDave]

Shaun:

You may have a problem keeping kings looking good.

The first problem may be the wind.

I used to live in the IE (Highland), and I remember how the wind used to scream through the Cajon Pass like every vengeful spirit for every sin I'd ever committed, and would yet commit and would even contemplate committing. As I drove to work in Ontario on the I-10.

That was a bad wind, y'all. 100 mph at times. Knocked over (and I'm sure still knocks over) trucks and Bemidji Boxes (snow-bird motor homes). The worst was on the I-10. If my memory serves, you're north of the mountains, facing the I-10.

I also recall that the wind out there is very localized. I remember driving down the I-10 in relative calm, and seeing, dead ahead, this vile-looking cloud of dust, which engulfed this reef of stopped trucks and BBs, then BLAM the wind hit my car, too. Drive a few miles, struggling to keep the car in a straight line in a broadside hurricane, and, suddenly . . . The wind just stopped. (Some people went off the road!)

If you're out of the worst of the wind, not so bad. You'll be able to keep up with the watering. A gentle breeze will keep off the frost. A howling wind will knock over things, and bring in the Calm of Doom. Kings hate howling dry winds. Alas.

The second problem is that you'll get cold air from the mountains, though it won't be so bad if you're above an even deeper valley. Be warned, though: I'm in a situation like that, and I sometimes get bad cold, anyway.

I recommend being careful about planting too many kings, or at least spending too much on them.

Keep us posted as to what you do! (I would love to see a kingly garden in your place. But, it's going to be a challenge, to be honest.)

[BigFrond]

Yeah... will be tough like Doom Dave explained plus there may be cold issue in the winter. The frond will be ugly. My place regularly gets 1-30 mph excluding Santa Ana wind and the fronds are not optimal. I would chop them if I didn't need the shade. Grow Parajubaeas at your place. They are much better looking palms in your environment. Actually, they're better looking palms except for purpurea.

[smotrs]

Dave, I know what your talking about with the wind. Going home or sometimes headed to work I experience it when it's that season. But I think I may have gotten lucky with where my house is at the base of the hills as I don't seem to get really strong winds at the house itself. I have some friends that are North Fontana closer to the 210 fwy and they come in complaining about the wind this night or another night. I'm usually sitting there with a look on my face like I don't know what they are talking about. Hopefully it stays that way.

The kings I'm looking at are $40 for a double and $45 for a triple in a 18ga pot. They are about 6-8ft tall so cost isn't too bad compared to some of the box costs which I think were in the $120+ range just for a double. The other reason I want to start with the small ones is that it will give it plenty of time to get a nice root ball going. Which is why I was curious about how deep the roots tend to go so if I do go with a root watering system, I can make sure it's deep enough or not too deep.

When I get things decided and actually do it, I'll post images before and after.

[smotrs]

BigFrond, I'll look them up. Thanks.

[smotrs]

Matty, question about the drip system. My system has a curve based algorithm which waters based on the hottest time of the year and tapers off for the cooler times. Currently I have it set at 7min for the bushes I have. Based on my current idea of doubles and a triple king, how many emitters would you suggest each tree have? And would they be the adjustable 1-10gph emitters?

Want to get an idea of how many I should be prepared to add.

[KennyRE317]

Didn't know you were out I those parts, but like other Have stated, watch out for those winds

[MattyB]

Matty, question about the drip system. My system has a curve based algorithm which waters based on the hottest time of the year and tapers off for the cooler times. Currently I have it set at 7min for the bushes I have. Based on my current idea of doubles and a triple king, how many emitters would you suggest each tree have? And would they be the adjustable 1-10gph emitters?

Want to get an idea of how many I should be prepared to add.

Hmmmm. I have no experience with curved based algorithms, other than me changing the duration and frequency manually as the seasons change. The amount of water per palm/plant you'll need is going to vary due to climate, soil, mulching habits, adjacent plantings, sun exposure, etc. For me, a mature king palm will be VERY happy with:

Cool weather (60's-70's), no rain: 9 gallons of water, once a week

Warm weather (80's-90's), no rain: 9 gallons of water x 2 times a week

Hot dry weather like September (upper 90's): 12 gallons of water x 2 times a week

You're gonna have to experiment and find what works for you but this is ample water in my experience. You could probably even dial it down a little bit. If you plant a double or triple you don't need to double or triple your water, just add a little bit more and I think they'll be fine.

I was thinking about your 7min watering duration and that puzzles me. If you have 1 gph emitters, you're only delivering about 13 ounces of water per plant? How often do you water? I've found that watering less frequently at longer durations makes for much stronger plants, I assume due to a deeper root development.

[smotrs]

Matt, thanks, excellent information. My only problem is I don't believe I can do just once a week as they will be on the same zone as the rest of the bushes in my planter area. So I believer I would have to water each day. Another reason why I was thinking of the root watering systems so the waters right where it needs to be.

I'll double check my emitters and watering schedule. Going by memory I have 2gph emitters and I'm watering once in the morning everyday and once in the evening every other day at 7min each.

If I look at the waterwise website and punch in moderate water use trees and 2gph emitters I get a 12min watering schedule. Also appears like what I should be using for my bushes as well. So I could possibly be under watering my bushes right now though I haven't seen any signs of under watering except when one of the emitters gets clogged. Anyway, let's say I setup my timer to run once a day at 12min. What size emitters or bubblers should I use and how many do you think per tree?

[DoomsDave]

Shaun:

Okay, sounds like you have a chance, and the price on the palms is reasonable.

If in doubt, water more. Kings like mucho agua, oh, do they.

I want to see a King-dom flourishing in Fontana!

Long live the kings!

[brodklop]

My only advice from a far country is water them and keep watering them and if in doubt water them.

[MattyB]

So I assume you mean this waterwise website: http://www.bewaterwise.com/calculator.html

I was playing around with the water caculator and I think they're roughly in the same total water use range as I was specifying. Keep in mind that they don't tell you how many emitters per tree and I was doing my total gallons calculations by counting all the emitters for the tree. They probably assume that you'll evenly space emitters around the root zone depending on the size of the trees or shrubs.

I don't like that (with moderate water, sand loam soil, and 2 gph emitters selected) they don't have you watering any longer than 12 minutes. By summertime they have you watering 7 days a week so you end up watering almost 1-1/2 hours a week in total. I would argue that your plants will benefit from running that zone at the full 1-1/2 hours only once a week, or 45 minutes twice a week, instead of all 7 days at only 12 minutes. Their method defeats the purpose of drip irrigation and only keeps the top layer of soil constantly moist. If you water deeper it'll create a nice deep root system, making your plants even more drought tolerant.

Regarding the number of emitters per plant: You don't have to have a giant ring with 10 emitters all around your plant, like some diagrams show, if you're watering for longer durations. Take Gary Levine for example. He uses only one little spitter per tree. His long watering duration allows that water to spread subsurface through capillary action, creating a plume of water that goes down and out, nice and deep.

I would suggest changing your existing 2 gph emitters to 1/2 gph emitters for your smaller plants and low water use shrubs, and only use 1 emitter per plant, or even try 1 emitter for every two plants at first. Then, where you plant your larger trees and big palm trees, use a quantity of 2-4, 2 gph emitters. Try running that set up for about 45 min to 1 hr, twice a week this summer and see what happens. I think you'll see good results.

Hope that helps.

-Matt

[Kostas]

I totally agree with Matt,well said! Even in the high heat of summer,i never water more often than once every 3-4days,and that because i always have newly planted plants in the garden,otherwise i could easily water less frequently than that! In the winter i water once every 7-9days,and only if it didnt rain enough for the rain sensor to cut the irrigation.

Of course,certain plant groups are exceptions and so i water my high water and humidity need ferns daily as well as my epiphytes,but all these are only sprayed and wet thoroughly daily and their water consumption is very little.

[MattyB]

Kostas brings up a good point about new plantings. Sometimes the new plants take some time to tap into the saturation zone below. Keep a close eye on them and supplement as needed for a few months especially when it's hot.

[smotrs]

Matt, Yes, that was the site I was talking about. My current schedules are all based on that site, so far everything seems to be satisfactory. I'm going to take a good look at my system though and look at possibly doing a few long drips instead of allot of short drips as you suggested. First thing I need to do though is setup a second drip system where my girlfriends garden is so I don't kill her veggies. I'd never hear the end of it.

From my questions, you can probably imagine I was actually trying to calculate how many emitters it would take to get to the 9-12 gallons you mentioned per week based on a 12min a day run. Which had me worried that I would have a whole bunch of emitters going around the tree. Which is why I was wondering about any special emitters or bubblers that I could use.

BTW, I don;t think anyone mentioned an answer to one of my original questions. About how deep do the root systems get on King Palms? I've read that they are almost grass like compared to other trees but no mention about how deep they typically go.

[smotrs]

Kostas, Thanks for the insight. Probably not going to get into ferns other then inside as my yard is pretty open. But I can see your point and will keep that in mind.