Hybrid Palms...

[AS in SA]

I believe this topic was covered once on the old boards, but my memory is a bit foggy...

It seems that palms within a genus (phoenix, dypsis, washingtonia etc.) are often hybridized, either intentionally or naturally.  It also seems that closely related palm genera occasionally result in a hybrid i.e. butiagrus & butia x jubaea.

I realize that cocos nucifera is alone in its genus - the only variation being tall/short - so crossing it with another genus member is out of the question.  Have there been any successful attempts to cross it with other palms (syagrus, butia, jubaea)?  Just curious..

[Palmy]

I heard that somebody tried to cross the coconut with a queen and they turned out to just be queens. It would be interesting to find out if there have been any other tries.

[merrill]

Hi, Palmy:

I've tried S. romanzoffianum and Butia and others I can't remember on Coconut.  It wasn't even a near miss.

The prospective mothers not only didn't form embryos; absolutely no fruit or seed of any kind set. -  merrill.

[PalmGuyWC]

There have been many attempts to cross coconuts with other genera, all without success.  A likely canidate would be Jubaeopses.  This cross has been attempted many times with no success.  Believe me, as a very important economic crop, if coconuts could be crossed they would be.  I think we all dream of a coconut looking palm that could be grown in California and other cooler climates.

There are many different variaties of coconuts and they readily cross, but they are still coconuts and tropical.  The most notable is the Panama tall X with the Jamacan tall which is a superior hybrid and resistant to lethal yellowing.  This hybrid is produced in great quanaties in Jamaca and Cuba.  There was an experiment going on at the USDA station south of Miami hybridizing coconuts until it was wiped out by hurrican Andrew.

Dick

[merrill]

Hi, Dick:

Long time no see!  Hope all is going well for you.  

Any chance of your posting a photo of your most unusual ( should I say suspected by Hal Moore to be etonia) Sabal?

Jubaeopsis has an almost uncountable number of chromosomes, so its odds of crossing with Cocos are even worse than the others, most of which have a number similar to Cocos.

Best Wishes, merrill

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Merrill,

Nice to hear from you too.  I'm kind of new to this forum and I haven't figgured out yet how to send and post pictures.  As soon as I do, I'll be sending a lot of pictures.  The suspected S etonia is still kicking and is slowly growing a trunk now.  Dr Dransfield may be here in May for the intrum board meeing in San Francisco and they are all supposed to come to my place for lunch one day.  I'm hoping John can have another look at it.  After seeing other photos of S. etonia, I'm having serious doubts as to what it it.  It's one of my toughest and hardiest Sabals. It has an extreamly heavy texture and the fronds don't bend eaisly, almost like thin wood. It's much more robust and holds many more fronds than any S. etonia I've seen.  It was loaded with seeds this year, but a mouse or someting beat me to them.

I noticed you put in an inquiry about Aeranga micrantha.  One of mine just showed damage two weeks after the freeze and it was exposed to 23 F.  The emerging sphere looks ok and the newest frond looks intact. Another growing nearby, but with light overhead protection looks ok.  Maybe not as hardy as we thought.

Dick

[edbrown_III]

Hello Dick and Merrill.

I had tried cocos pollen on BUtia with out luck. May try again. The odds with Jubeaopiss are worst as Merrill stated I think a 100 chromosomes to the Butias 16.

I had A. micrantha killed at 21 or 22F. We had a fortnight of freezes in 99' and this was done in.  

I have replanted another one.

It was supposed to get in the low 20's possilbe 23 here in Jax on Monday but we lucked out... 9 degrees higher . but I am not complaining about the bad forecast.

Best regards,

Ed

[merrill]

Hi, Dick:

Nice to hear from you again!

Are any of these other putative but dissimilar  S. etonia in your garden or otherwise very similar circumstances? - merrill

[Palmy]

Thats too bad merrill. It would be cool if it was possible to cross a coconut. I hear that there are 2 syagrus sp. that if you cross them they look closely to a coconut.

@ Dick, I still see very little damage on my A. Micrantha. I hope yours comes back, too bad they grow slower than me.

[Ken Johnson]

If you like DNA stories the Syagrus-Coccos should be a good one!

[AS in SA]

Thanks for all the info.  I figured that if it was easy - it'd already have been done.

Ken, what'd you mean by:

If you like DNA stories the Syagrus-Coccos should be a good one!

???

[Ken Johnson]

DNA studies can show how life on earth is related.

The use of cladistics allows us to find out many facts about relationships and the true HISTORY of LIFE on earth.  The cocosoid palms (Coconut and Syagrus species as well as others) evolved from the same palms and have since changed so much that they can't have viable offspring ( the basic definition of species).

With time and money (and a scientist) we could find out how long ago these palms began there split. With comparisons of many types of palms we can even get an idea about the locations on earth where they came from. The "stories" that DNA can tell will some day expose the whole story of life.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Anyone know the DNA makeup of Parajubaea. That would make a fun cross with Cocos if at all possible.

[PalmGuyWC]

Jim,

Crossing a Coconut with Parajubaea might hold a slim possibility and I'm sure Patrick would be more than willing to try if he could get his hands on an ample quanity of fresh coconut pollen. One of the problems is getting the pollen and having it prepared correctly.  The pollen has to be totally dry and stored properly.

The other problem is finding a Parajubaea where the inflorescences can be reached.  Most of the ones growing in the SF Bay area are either to young and not fruiting yet, or else they have grown to tall to reach, and there are not many of them.

A much better outcome could be expected crossing various Syagrus with Butia or Jubaea or (Butia X Jubaea) and this has already been done.  I would love to see an attempt made using Syagrus amara pollen on a Butia or Jubaea, but again, S. amara usually doesn't start fruiting until they are quite tall and out of reach with a ladder.  This is true with a lot of the Syagrus.

There are a lot of obstacles to hybridizing. Fresh or viable pollen on hand and an ample supply, the tedious mechanical process of doing it, and pollenating the female flowers at anthesis, and the time frame when they are ready is sometimes counted in hours, not days, depending on the weather.  There are a lot of conditions that have to come together to be successful.

Dick

[Gtlevine]

I heard that a successful cross was made with Coconut and African Oil Palm, anyone else heard of this cross?

Gary

[JD in the OC]

How about Beccariophoenix or Voanioala crossed with a Coco (the Coco being the mother).  I know pollen would be nearly impossible to get, but would the chromosome counts be close?  I think Voanioala has 400, but is is a close relative to the coconut right?

I have planted my Dypsis decaryi x leptocheilos seeds, so we'll see what happens.  Next I am going to try:

Dypsis decaryi x lanceolata

Dypsis albofarinosa x lastelliana

Dypsis albofarinoxa x leptocheilos

Fingers crossed....

JD

[paulgila]

fingers & everything else,apparently

[Phil]

Palm Hybridizers have always been an eclectic group of palm enthusiasts.  I can remember every one I've ever met.  These guys have to have a lot of qualities.  Included are extreme patience, stong legs (they spend a lot of time on ladders), persistence, ability to accept failure and insight.  And, they really get into it, almost like a passion.  So, my hat's off to all you hybridizers.  I can hardly wait until one of you breaks the coconut riddle.

Phil

[JD in the OC]

Thanks for the support Phil.

Hey Jeff Searle, could you spare some fallen staminate flowers off of your Beccario?  I could extract pollen and try it on a coco.

JD

[PalmGuyWC]

Phil,

Your right, patience, persistence, and determination are qualities for a hybridizer, and there is a learning process too.  I think it should be mentioned that Patrick is not doing it just for the heck of it, but he's trying to create new cold hardy hybrids by using Butia and Jubaea, or (Butia X Jubaea) as one of the parents. We are limited in Northern Cal. with the kinds of palms that will grow here, so any new cold hardy additions will be welcome.

He's learned that not all Butias are the same.  Some seem to be more receptive to hybridization while others will not set seed.  Getting hybrid seeds to set on the Jubaea seems to be particularly difficult, but he has had some success.  Often times only about a dozen seeds will set while other times he will be more successful and sometimes he gets zero results.  

After the seeds are collected then there is the process of germinating them, then waiting a year or two to see if they "are the real thing."  Even though he takes great precautions, there is always the possibility of pollen contamination and you end up with just a species plant.

One of the most notable hybrids so far is Butia X Parajubaea, and this hybrid is growing in a number of different locations, inculding the UK and in Central and Northern Florida and in Northern and Southern Calif.  I have one about head high, and it just came through our recent hard freeze with flying colors.  Mine was unprotected and it came through night after night of below freezing and many white frosts and it was untouched.  My low was 23 F.

So far, mine looks something like a streatched out Butia, (but different) and the petioles are unarmed and there seems to be a lot fiber around the trunk.  It's much faster growing than either of its parents.  Mine doubled in size the first year it was put in the ground.  It will be interesting to see what the flowers and spathes look like when they bloom and whether it will be a mule or if it will produce viable seed.

Another interesting cross is (Jubaea X Butia) X Syagrus.  I have one and it has grown with hybrid vigor and looks very much like a Butiagrus, but with a heavier texture.  This one should be even hardier than Butiagrus with Jubaea linage in it.  It will also be interesting to see how this one takes to the gernerally hot, humid climate of North and Central Florida with the Jubaea linage.  I expect this will be a large palm that can take a lot of cold.

I'm sorry I can't supply any hybrid seeds as I've relinquished all rights to the seeds to the hybridizer.  He does all the hard work, so he gets the seeds, and I get to enjoy his handywork.  Believe me, it's tedious hard work being stuck on the top of a ladder for hours in 105F heat.

Dick

[PalmGuyWC]

This might solve the coconut riddle.  I recieved an E mail from Garrin Fullington stating that there is a coconut hybrid growing in the Singapore Botanical Gardens.  It's a cross between a coconut and an African Oil Palm and he says the cross looks something between the two parents with fruit midway between the two parents as well.  If anyone has a picture of this palm, I'd sure like to see it.  This is a hybrid that could only be grown in a tropical climate.

Dick

[ricky]

hi dick i was just wondering if the coconut x african oil palm had  a common name i only ask as iv been in touch with the singapore botanical gardens and this was the reply i got from them

Thank you for writing in to Singapore Botanic Gardens.

I checked through the Gardens' current inventory, we do have cocos nucifera

in our collection. Same goes for elaeis guineensis. But it seems we do not

have a cross or a hybrid as you mentioned. Is there a possibility it is

known as an other name? Maybe you can give me some of the common name for

that particular hybrid and I will check for you again?

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Ricky,

I have no more information about the coconut X elaeis guineenis cross.  I was only passing along 2nd hand information that came to me from Garrin Fullington who lives in Hawaii.  Apparently he has seen the tree.  You might seek info from him. Sometimes botanical gardens don't know what they have because the inventory is so huge.  There is also the possibility that Singapore once had the hybrid and it died.

Dick

[merrill]

QUOTING DICK DOUGLAS: "Another interesting cross is (Jubaea X Butia) X Syagrus.  I have one and it has grown with hybrid vigor and looks very much like a Butiagrus, but with a heavier texture.  This one should be even hardier than Butiagrus with Jubaea linage in it.  It will also be interesting to see how this one takes to the gernerally hot, humid climate of North and Central Florida with the Jubaea linage.  I expect this will be a large palm that can take a lot of cold. END QUOTE.

As Dick predicts, these (JXB)XS do quite well in my part of Florida in reasonably well drained soil (i. e. Arredondo soil type).  Ed Brown and the late John Bishock had JXB which didn't thrive or even survive in sites with high water table in FL (Jacksonville and Miakka).  Both hybrids are worth the trouble of being planted on a berm, at least in the late John's and my opinions.  These hybrids that I've produced [JXB & JXBXSyagrus r.] haven't been exposed to less than 10F yet; I'd really prefer not to test them any further!  I'll try to get some photos.  Best Wishes, merrill

[Moose]

Mark Heath, where are you?

[Mark Heath]

Mark Heath, where are you?

Here i am Moose!! I remember this old thread but at the time the thread was running i was just getting ready to attempt the cross Butia X Cocos. I performed the cross twice since and had about a dozen seeds both times. I cracked one open and everything was good but the shell was very thick, which worries me whether or not the radicle can shoot through the eye.

I stii have them in germination beds but none have germinated. First batch is 1 1/2 years old and the second batch is 8months old. Matt from Temecula has performed the cross as well

and has had germination, so time will tell us all about the Coconut riddle!

I will wait for Larry Noblick to visit and ID my hopefull BXC! Here it is again for the newbies who have'nt seen it yet.

[Zeeth]

Email I got from Garrin:

Aloha Keith,

Yes I have seen the coconut - oil palm hybrid in the Singapore Bot Garden. It looks like a more slender version of the oil palm with a bit more orderly leaf structure. The nuts were mid size between the parents, very compact on the somewhat hanging stem. I understand it was an intentional cross to produce trees with larger seeds, but their fewer number cancelled the size increase. It really was not a great looking landscape tree either.

Garrin

He didn't know which palm was the parent of the cross, but I suspect it was Elaeis.

[ErikSJI]

Email I got from Garrin:

Aloha Keith,

Yes I have seen the coconut - oil palm hybrid in the Singapore Bot Garden. It looks like a more slender version of the oil palm with a bit more orderly leaf structure. The nuts were mid size between the parents, very compact on the somewhat hanging stem. I understand it was an intentional cross to produce trees with larger seeds, but their fewer number cancelled the size increase. It really was not a great looking landscape tree either.

Garrin

He didn't know which palm was the parent of the cross, but I suspect it was Elaeis.

Here is a photo of Butia x cocos that I recieved from Mark Lynn. He has gotten 7 of them to survive so far. Mine is not looking to healthy latley.