Shade Loving Palms for California

[happ]

Much of my lot is on a steep north-facing hillside under a canopy of natural walnut trees & eucalyptus.  During winter there is vitually no sun on this slope but with partial summer sun.  It is frost-free but cool during winter.

I have howea/euterpe edulis/phoenix roebelenii in shade or part sun and they do quite well.  I'd like to plant more palms & would appreciate feedback from others who are growing shade-loving palms.    

I did a brief search and came up with the following palms that either prefer or tolerate shade.  Anyone else growing these in shade in California?

Rhapis excelsa Lady palm tree

Euterpe precatoria Mountain cabbage palm  

Chamaedorea elegans Parlor Palm

Chamaedorea microspadix Bamboo Palm

Areca vestiaria Pinang Yaki Palm

Chamaedorea cataractarum Palm

Chamaedorea costaricana Palm

Chamaedorea glaucifolia Palm

Chamaedorea tepejilote Pacaya Palm

Coccothrinax dussiana Broom Palm, Thatch Palm ?

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis Bottle Palm

Pinanga coronata Ivory Cane Palm

Pritchardia beccariana Loulu Palm

[quaman58]

happ,

Of those you've listed, Rhapis e. would probably do well. I'm growing Pinanga c. in part day sun, as well as Pritchardia b. But it's those long dark winter' that may not be to their liking, I'm afraid. As for Hyophorbe Lagenicaulis, I'm not a believer in this for SoCal, except in the most perfect (warmer) micro-climes. But most Chamaedoreas should do great.

Bret

[DoomsDave]

Happ:

Hmm.  In theory, any Chamadorea will work. Any rhapis, chuniophoenix, understory Dypsis (e.g. mcdonaldiana), lytocaryum.

Workable cycads include Dioon edule, Encepholartos ferox (RED cones!) and Lepidozamia.

Be aware that walnuts produce a toxin into the soil that often makes it hard to grow things under them.  Experiment with expendable plants before putting something expensive there.

Some eucalyptus have really greedy roots, though nothing is quite as greedy as poplars, willows and ash (fraxinus).

How about some pictures?

dave

[DoomsDave]

Happ:

I think the Hyophorbes will need more sun than you can give them in a place like  you describe.  Mine are in full sun.   They really have to have warmth, and I think they'll tend to rot in a place your north-facing slope.

dave

[Fred Zone 10A]

Dave is right that any Chamaedorea would work, as well as Lytocaryum and Rhapis excelsa, multifida, laosensis and subtilis.  I don't think any Areca will grow here.  Ditto Euterpe precatoria.  There are a number of canopy-emergent palms that will do OK in shade.  For example, Archontophoenix.

My main concern would be getting sufficient water to palms on your steep slope.  How would you deal with that?

[Peter]

Happ, here are a few more suggestions that should do very well for you in those conditions:  Rhopalostylus, Hedyscepe, Chambeyronia and Burretiokentia.   All of these do very well for me here in the valley in full shade.

[Kim]

Not an expert, but I have two other Coccothrinax species, argentea and fragrans growing in full sun.  I don't imagine they would do well in deep cool shade.

Chamaedoreas were made for shade!  If you have a lot of understory room, plant multiples, like little groves of tepejilotes.

[spockvr6]

(Kim @ Feb. 05 2007,11:57)

QUOTE

plant multiples, like little groves of tepejilotes.

That would be very very cool.

[MattyB]

(Peter @ Feb. 05 2007,08:08)

QUOTE

Happ, here are a few more suggestions that should do very well for you in those conditions:  Rhopalostylus, Hedyscepe, Chambeyronia and Burretiokentia.   All of these do very well for me here in the valley in full shade.

Love Peter's suggestions above.  

I'd also add:

Ceroxylon spp.

Geonoma undata

Livistona chinensis (these look awesome in shade)

Kerridoxa elegans

Laccospadix

Dypsis onilahensis (grow it anywhere, it's fun for the whole family)

Dypsis psammophila

Dypsis albofarinosa

Ptychosperma elegans

Ptychosperma caryotiodes

Ptychosperma macarthurii

Dypsis 'pink crownshaft'

Some of the Ravenea look kick a$$ in the shade as they stretch straight up for the light.

Linospadix monostachys

All archontophoenix

Johanesteijmania

Marojejya

Veitchia

Dypsis St. Lucie

[paulgila]

you forgot c.renda,matt

[DoomsDave]

Happ:

There's also a totally cool multi truniking tepijilote, from Worldwide Exotics up in Lakeview Terrace.

dave

[MattyB]

(pohonkelapa @ Feb. 05 2007,12:18)

QUOTE

you forgot c.renda,matt

Hey, Happ is in the best microclimate in SoCal....he's got a shot. ???   Yeah, and monkeys could fly out of my butt. :laugh:

[paulgila]

i've seen that--its not pleasant.

[Matt in SD]

Happ,

For a shade/filtered light area in  your climate I think the real question is what will NOT grow there.  There are very few palms that really need full sun (Hyophorbe's I think need more sun, Bismarkia, Ravenea xerophylla, Dypsis decipiens...probably more).  So it depends how adventurous you want to get.  

Easy:

All Chamaedoreas (except maybe turkheimii)

Chambeyronia

Pritchardia

Rhapis

Hedyscepe

Rhopalostylus

Burretiokentia hapala and khogiensis

Chuniophoenix (slow but easy I think, I have both species, hainanensis is very cool)

Dypsis baronii, lutescens, 'fine leaf', most medium sized clumpers

Medium:

Burretiokentia vieillardii

Clinostigma savoryanum

Dypsis saintlucei (this might be easy, too early to tell)

Most raveneas

Dypsis 'pink crown'

Most Dypsis not listed in easy (carlsmithii, 'orange crush')

Geonoma schottiana (this has been a great grower for me)

Dictysperma

Cryosophila warscewiczii

Hard

Basselinia (gracilis might be more "medium", but the others are hard to grow)

Marojejya

Johannesteijmannia

Areca triandra, vestiara, macrocalyx(?)

Geonoma undata

Kerriodoxa elegans

Astrocaryum alatum or mexicanum

Cyphosperma balansae

Lemurophoenix

I've seen a very healthy looking Areca triandra in San Diego, it was flawless actually.  

Obviousliy there are more, and some of the things I listed as "medium" might be easy in your climate.   Start with stuff that doesn't break the bank and then adjust as needed when you see how they do.

Matt

[Phil]

Dear Happ,

You got a lot of good information above.  I'll make a few comments below, modifying info with your location in Pasadena.  These comments apply to your proposed "shade" conditions, or I assume filtered light

Rhapis excelsa Lady palm tree Piece of cake

Euterpe precatoria Mountain cabbage palm Because of your cold, might be difficult  

Chamaedorea elegans Parlor Palm Piece of cake

Chamaedorea microspadix Bamboo Palm piece of chocalate cake

Areca vestiaria Pinang Yaki Palm  Limitation is your cold

Chamaedorea cataractarum Palm piece of cake

Chamaedorea costaricana Palm piece of cake

Chamaedorea glaucifolia Palm ok for shade, but put in a brighter shade location

Chamaedorea tepejilote Pacaya Palm piece of cake, no direct sun

Coccothrinax dussiana Broom Palm, Thatch Palm ? doesn't like shade.  Would grow slowly in shade

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis Bottle Palm Two problems: likes sun and you're way too cold

Pinanga coronata Ivory Cane Palm possibly, but your cold might bump it off on a bad night

Pritchardia beccariana Loulu Palm probably ok, but in a brighter shade location.  In dark shade, it stalls.

Phil

[Don Little]

Phil,

My 5 gallon P coronata was outside unprotected during the freeze we had and came thru with flying colors.  It was with in 5 feet of a sensor that read 29.  I would think that P coronata would be ok in his locale.  

Happ

what was the coldest that you saw during the last freeze?

[MattyB]

I think Happ is in a primo spot up there on that hill.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi all

"WOW" thats a big list now one more worth a try is Oraniopsis appendiculata.

Clayton.

[happ]

Thanks for all the advice  

The issue of walnut tree toxin is a good point.  These are California Black walnuts and can not be removed since they are protected.  Brugmansia does quit well under the overstory as well as other plants [Mexican fan palm] but I would not like to take a chance with more exotic palms.

I have a bethel nut palm that seems fine in partial sun.  King/foxtail/royal/majesty/veitchia are in full sun and look great but I think they would be happier in some shade [especially during summer]. Even picked up a coconut palm at Armstrong nursery; they claim that if bananas look healthy all year then coconut will do fine, yeah right  ??? This is strictly an experiment & will transplant it this spring.

Watering on the hillside is not a problem if you terrace the slope.  There are several other evergreen trees that I have no idea what they are.  I will take & post some photos soon.

As far as cold temps it is very mild in the south-facing foothills that surround Los Angeles.  Lowest minimum was 37F during recent freeze and many years will not drop below 45F.  But winter nights are chilly, none-the-less in California with average winter minimum of 51F at my location.  Normally rainfall occurs during winter [except this year    and some palms get a little tip-burn.

I believe the location can handle what would be considered marginal palms and would especially like to plant a  Lady palm  

[Geoff]

Well, your climate sounds almost unique to California- a low of 37F during the freeze last month?  That is nice.  Still, even in your uniquely frost free climate, I would not consider Euterpe prectoria and Areca vestiaria marginal... I would still consider them impossible.  I would not consider your climate a USDA 11... last time I looked at the official map (there are a lot of unofficial maps) there was no 11 on the west coast.  I think 10b is a better description of your climate, which is still outstanding considering the rest of Pasadena is 9b-10a.  Don't plant too many lady palms- everyone has one of those.. save the place for the cool stuff few others can grow!

[Fred Zone 10A]

Watering on the hillside is not a problem if you terrace the slope.

Bingo!

And I agree with Geoff's comments.  After all, he wrote the book.

I'd put the lady palms in pots in shade to half sun around your house.

[happ]

(Geoff @ Feb. 06 2007,21:48)

QUOTE

Well, your climate sounds almost unique to California- a low of 37F during the freeze last month?  That is nice.  Still, even in your uniquely frost free climate, I would not consider Euterpe prectoria and Areca vestiaria marginal... I would still consider them impossible.  I would not consider your climate a USDA 11... last time I looked at the official map (there are a lot of unofficial maps) there was no 11 on the west coast.  I think 10b is a better description of your climate, which is still outstanding considering the rest of Pasadena is 9b-10a.  Don't plant too many lady palms- everyone has one of those.. save the place for the cool stuff few others can grow!

Here's USDA map : http://mgonline.com/zonemap.html

The difficulty of mapping micro-climates is the fact that they are microscopic.  200 feet below my house I see considerable frost damage [when I have some time I'll get some photos].

Keep in mind that USDA zones define what are the normal lowest minimum temperatures.  It rarely drops below 40F in San Francisco but it also stays below 70F nearly every day of the year.  

If the success of the "marginal" palms is merely frost-free and above 40F winter minimums then BINGO  

The issue is overall warmth for many of these palms plus mucho moisture.  I use a fine spray water system to pump humidity into the air but can't afford it all year.  Also coastal California warms slowly into spring while Florida & Texas are already 'cookin'  :cool:

The realization that during the recent freeze the LA foothills stayed well-above freezing while all around it was frigid provokes me to get a bit bolder. Areca catechu seems an unlikely tree for Los Angeles but after 2 winters it is fine with no protection.

Geoff

My 37F reading was actually much cooler than other nearby windy locations.  With the exception of one or two nights below 40F the Santa Monica range from Malibu to Montebello was 10-20 degrees warmer than the San Fernando/San Gabriel valleys.  The strange disaster of what happened in San Diego county was due to the lack of night wind  

[Scott]

Wow Happ, This is quite a list! You should have fun planning this out. Give us a pic of what you do

Scott

[palmazon]

happ - I have an enormous triple pacaya plus maybe a few others on your list

[happ]

(palmazon @ Feb. 07 2007,09:18)

QUOTE

happ - I have an enormous triple pacaya plus maybe a few others on your list

Can we talk? I'll sent you a member's message.

[gsn]

(Geoff @ Feb. 06 2007,21:48)

QUOTE

 I would not consider your climate a USDA 11... last time I looked at the official map (there are a lot of unofficial maps) there was no 11 on the west coast.  I think 10b is a better description of your climate, which is still outstanding considering the rest of Pasadena is 9b-10a.  

GEOFF,

Please don't try to take away Happ's USDA zone 11 status.

If you do he will having nothing but WEATHER left!  

[Ashton]

(happ @ Feb. 06 2007,20:27)

QUOTE

I believe the location can handle what would be considered marginal palms and would especially like to plant a  Lady palm  

Just a thought. Take a peak at Rhapis humilis. It doesn't get quite as yellow in sun, grows a little taller and is more beautiful than a Lady palm in my opinion and many others. I saw them growing side by side at the home of the former president of the Palm Society of Southern California and he prefered the humilis as well.

[happ]

Here's a closer look at USDA Zone 11.  The Channel Islands & the foothills that surround Los Angeles.

[happ]

Here are a few photos of the slope and deep shade in places

[Geoff]

this is the site to an 'official' map put out by the national aboretum society.. .I think this is far more realistic than those other maps (sorry, not trying to be argumentative)... realisitically, though, zone 11 is really more like Miami, Florida Keys, Hawaii...no place in California can even compare to those climates, and our inability to grow many species of palms here goes along with that.

http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/hzm-sw1.html

[Ashton]

(Geoff @ Feb. 08 2007,01:12)

QUOTE

this is the site to an 'official' map put out by the national aboretum society.. .I think this is far more realistic than those other maps

http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/hzm-sw1.html

I have yet to see a single zone map that is easy to read. The resolution of all of these maps is pitiful at best. Besides, one map says I live in 11 and the other say 10B. All that really matters is that I've got a bunch of dead expensive palms that should easily survive in 10B.

I think what is truly more relevant when it comes to growing wonderfully tropical palms is what is the average temperature in the cycle of a day. You could live in a 10B or 11 and not dip below the mid thirties to forty at night, but if the temps don't climb much above fifty during the day and this goes on for weeks, the palms we all want will not thrive and eventually will croak. Is there a map that gives this type of information?

ashton

[gsn]

(Geoff @ Feb. 08 2007,01:12)

QUOTE

realisitically, though, zone 11 is really more like Miami, Florida Keys, Hawaii...no place in California can even compare to those climates, and our inability to grow many species of palms here goes along with that.

GEOFF,

Actually even Miami is not  in zone 11.

The Florida keys are the only part of Florida that is zone 11!

But I totally agree, heating days for some species are as important as bottom low average temps!

[happ]

(Geoff @ Feb. 08 2007,01:12)

QUOTE

this is the site to an 'official' map put out by the national aboretum society.. .I think this is far more realistic than those other maps (sorry, not trying to be argumentative)... realisitically, though, zone 11 is really more like Miami, Florida Keys, Hawaii...no place in California can even compare to those climates, and our inability to grow many species of palms here goes along with that.

http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/hzm-sw1.html

You are mistaking climate with probability of frost.  As already stated the USDA zones do not suggest that plants can thrive based merely on the average occurrence of frost.  I used San Francisco as an example but even as far north as parts of extreme northern coastal California are zone 10 yet anyone familiar with that region knows that most subtropical plants will not do well or even live at all in that consistently cool foggy climate.  

This original subject of this post asks the question of what kinds of palms prefer shade.  Being in a frost-free zone does not mean it provides the warmth & humidity that many tropical plants need.  For example, delonix regia grow into nice size trees and even retain their leaves well into winter BUT do not flower in Los Angeles as they do in Miami.

As LA expands in growth more & more people are living in areas [such as the foothills] that were sparsely populated in the past.  Additional weather stations are defining rather significant differences in temperature over short distances.  For example, it is not at all uncommon for Santa Monica to be 75F on a summer afternoon while just 10 miles over the hills in the San Fernando valley it is 95F.  There aren't many places in the US that have that kind of regular disparity in weather conditions.      

You can rightly argue over the probability of tropical plants surviving at latitude of 33N but not the science of climatology as it pertains to frost.

[happ]

(Ashton @ Feb. 08 2007,01:24)

QUOTE

(Geoff @ Feb. 08 2007,01:12)

QUOTE

this is the site to an 'official' map put out by the national aboretum society.. .I think this is far more realistic than those other maps

http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/hzm-sw1.html

I have yet to see a single zone map that is easy to read. The resolution of all of these maps is pitiful at best. Besides, one map says I live in 11 and the other say 10B. All that really matters is that I've got a bunch of dead expensive palms that should easily survive in 10B.

I think what is truly more relevant when it comes to growing wonderfully tropical palms is what is the average temperature in the cycle of a day. You could live in a 10B or 11 and not dip below the mid thirties to forty at night, but if the temps don't climb much above fifty during the day and this goes on for weeks, the palms we all want will not thrive and eventually will croak. Is there a map that gives this type of information?

ashton

Yes & here it is :

http://www.monrovia.com/Monrovi....ocument

[Geoff]

Anyway, my point is not that a certain California microclimate may be 'perfect' relative to all the other ones in the state (like where Mardy Darian lives, for example)... so technically you could argue that those are zone 11s... but from a palm growing point of view, they are still zone 10bs at best, and zone 11 plants have no hope of survival there, due primarily to the lack of winter heat, rather than ultimate cold extremes.  The zone thing sometime lets palm growers think they can grow stuff like Metroxylons, Pigafettas, etc. or even Borassus which does great in zones 10a in Florida.  So, 'functionally' there are no zone 11s here in So Cal.  I even doubt there are many zone 10b areas in this functional context, though evidently there are a few.

[happ]

The relevance of USDA 11 is a timely subject.  Warmest winter minimums in Los Angeles is important only as it applies to frost.

The heartache of waiting for a plant to grow [which is slow mo at best in winter] becomes a non-complaint when a freeze wipes out tender palms across nearby valleys.