Another "real" Dypsis ambositrae

[MattyB]

So, Dypsis plumosa was first introduced as Dypsis ambositrae and now we know, uh, no, not even close. There were some other clumping baronii/onilahensis types that came in as Dypsis ambositrae and obviously they were not ambos. So let's forget about that stuff.

Then the "real" Dypsis ambositrae started going around. It was a small tillering palm with a red petiole and looked like the real deal. I think some people might have got this plant labled as Kindreo, not sure exactly, that might be another plant again, please clarify if you have any additional info on Kindreo. Or is Kindreo kind of a generic name for palm? Anyway, here's some pics of what I thought was, and still may be, the real Dypsis ambositrae. These are pics of all the same palm, throughout the years.

[MattyB]

Then a couple of years ago, real keen collectors like Len, Bill, Jeff B, etc., kept mentioning another Dypsis ambositrae that was yet again different. This new one being much more tempermental, slower growing, smaller or maybe just smaller compared to the others because it's so slow. If I remember correctly they described it as having the tell tale red petiole, but being even more colorful, a bit stockier or having less of that upright stem when young, still having numerous thin leaflets, but not as long and upright of a frond as the previous palm, and the overall leaf being less upright and more recurved, similar to a miniature red Dypsis decipiens.

3-4 years ago I was so stoked on Dypsis ambositrae that I got a few dozen from a couple of different sources, some from Ortinique and some from William DeBoe/Pious Palms. Since I had a few Dypsis ambositrae (or so I thought) in the ground thriving, I figured that all the little seedlings were just extras, so I sold and gave them away. I'm not sure which batch the following palm came from (I think it was Pious Palms batch), but this palm looks to me like the "other real" Dypsis ambositrae they were talking about. It's slow and it's a pain in the butt sometimes. Like ever summer it scortches, or spots, and ends up looking like crap, even under shade cloth. The ones in other peoples greenhouses look like crap too. Len suggested that I take it out of the greenhouse for summer.

Anyway, here's a few shots of this palm that I'm pretty sure is different than the other one pictured earlier in this thread. You can see the spotting/browning issues I've had on this palm for the last 3 years is happening again this summer. I guess the quickest to spot and most noticeable difference is the fact that this palm will hold the red petiole on at least two leaves, whereas the previous palm would only have the red petiole on the new emerging leaf.

[edric]

Hi Matty, mine came in as Kidreo, from J. D. Andersen's, the newest petiole next to the new spear is red, as your two big ones are, and all the rest of that var. are, the last one in post two is just like mine, I adjusted the brightness/contrast in this habitat photo, it is the real deal, IMO, Ed

[MattyB]

I just went to Palmpedia http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Dypsis_ambositrae and looked at all the pics. There's gotta be at least three different palms in there, all being called D. ambo. Aye Carumba!

[DoomsDave]

The more we think we know, the less we actually do.

Matt, your second palm sure looks to be different from the first (which looks like mine, for what that might be worth).

Maybe someone should write a grant for genetic testing of all these Dypsis. Dr. D might not like it, but the results could be fascinating.

[LJG]

That second palm is the same one that is slow for Jeff Marcus too. These came from Bill Beatie and Pete Balasky. The first one you post and the second look so similar small with the only real difference is the super slow growth and difficultly in hot weather for that second one you posted. Can't wait to see if the slower one turns out to be the same thing or something unique.

[trioderob]

what about this one

true Ambo ?

[MattyB]

Get some pics of the stem region Triode. That looks like a Dypsis decipiens from the top view.

[trioderob]

will do

[Funkthulhu]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I find this sort of questionable commercial species characterization a bit fascinating. This really highlights the need for standardized naming of retail plants to match their scientific species name. And as long as we're making wishes, there should also be a readily available morphology guide to quickly identify any species...

[Peter G]

Is what RPS is selling at the moment be the True Ambositrae?

[Gtlevine]

I have one of the true Ambo, holy moly that thing is a slow grow. Plant was germinated in 2006 and its about two feet max right now.

[LJG]

Gary I have a plant bought as Ambo from Phil as a 1 gallon in 2008 that is now trunking. I got this slow plant in 2008 also. Crazy the difference in speed for a plant that looks so close to the others.

[richnorm]

Triode, think your one just might be same as Matty's in post 2. Certainly I've had a plant which started out like Matty's and ended up like yours. The colour can vary but the low growing/recurved habit is similar to my slow mystery ambos (now down to one!). They photograph like decipiens but in the flesh are quite different and seedling morphology is very distinctive from decipiens. Feel the stiffness of a decipiens leaflet then feel one on that plant, should be much more supple.

cheers

Richard

[Jeff Searle]

My 2 cents worth, the emerging red coloring in the petiole/spear area and extreame slow growing nature is what seperates it from the rest. Not too sure about your large plant matt in your first post.

[Kennybenjamin]

I have always known there was something different about one of my Ambo's, I choose it especially for that reason. When I first found it I thought it looked a bit decipiens like but with more colour than I would expect?

The palm in question is in the red pot:

Then the "normal" ambo:

Then a few comparison shots:

And my cat (Soot) felt like getting her photo taken and appearing on palm talk!

These palms certainly look very similar and it takes a very keen eye to tell any difference, I wonder how similar they look as they mature??

Matty, I am curious as to weather your larger palm split into 2 or if you planted 2 specimens? I have never personally seen these split, I have seen a couple of doubles but never actualyl seen the split occur and I have dealt with many ambo's.

[MattyB]

They are two separate plants, but one of them did split, but one of the suckers died. .

[Philpalm]

This is a really hard one for me to grow here in the Philippines, it simply does not like the wet and humidity even

in free draining soil or potting mix, very slow.

Should be doing well in your climate Matty.

cheers....Jerry.

[trioderob]

ok Guys-

here is another view of my Dypsis

is it the killer true "Ambo" or just a DD

one thing for sure - it is a snail

what's your vote ?

Edited August 5, 2013 by trioderob

[richnorm]

Very tricky from photos but I suspect you have the same palm as Matty and Kenny but wouldn't dare to put a name on it. BTW I've seen two split so it can happen.

[edric]

Looks like it to me, but here's how you can tell, when the new spear is nearly half way out, is the newest petiole next to it very, very red? Then when that spear opens, and the next new spear is nearly half way out or so, the petiole on it in turn, will be very red, as the other petiole slowly turns green, and the process repeats itself, over and over, also buy the time it's that size, when the old petiole base falls off, there will always be some white on the freshly exposed petiole, Ed

[Mike in Nelson]

Very tricky from photos but I suspect you have the same palm as Matty and Kenny but wouldn't dare to put a name on it. BTW I've seen two split so it can happen.

Richard, which ones do we have here in NZ? The slow ones or the faster one like Matty's in the first photo?

[Jeff Searle]

ok Guys-

here is another view of my Dypsis

is it the killer true "Ambo" or just a DD

one thing for sure - it is a snail

what's your vote ?

YES!!!

[edric]

ok Guys-

here is another view of my Dypsis

is it the killer true "Ambo" or just a DD

one thing for sure - it is a snail

what's your vote ?

YES!!!

THE REAL DEAL!

[edric]

I just took these shots a few minutes ago, 9+ years old, J. D. Andersen's, Ed

[Mike in Nelson]

Surely it would be considerably bigger if it were in the ground, Ed?

Edited August 6, 2013 by Mike in Nelson

[edric]

Surely it would be considerably bigger if it were in the ground, Ed?

It certainly would Mike, But after three nights at -4,88 C./25 F. 12/2010, I'm gonna wait until it gets a little bigger, Ed

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Still trying to figure this out, but if I understand right, there are three dypsis that go under the name 'ambositrae':

1) dypsis ambositrae 'plumosa' now renamed dypsis plumosa, chocolate brown when juvenile and plumose

2) dypsis ambositrae, the real ambositrae that grows like a weed, named properly by Dransfield and co.

3) dypsis ambositrae 'kidreo' that a few collectors are now calling the "true ambositrae"

So I am really curious, why confuse the whole world by introducing yet another dypsis that isn't actually an ambositrae, but came in labeled as 'kidreo'? Jeff Marcus is selling 2) as ambositrae, the seeds come from Madagascar and it's a real nice decent growing fast and easy dypsis that really has tremendous potential as a palm for non-collectors. 2) really looks nothing like decipiens, although there is now talk of it being found in other locations which happens to also be where decipiens grow.

All in all, 2) is a dynamite plant for Norcal.

[Mike in Nelson]

Ok so let me get this straight. The authentic, and only, ambositrae is the number 2 on your list? What's the slow one then? Obviously something else?

[edric]

Ok so let me get this straight. The authentic, and only, ambositrae is the number 2 on your list? What's the slow one then? Obviously something else?

No Mike, he's got it backwards, the slow one is the true ambositrae, all you have to remember, is the newest petiole next to the new emergent spear, bright red, and is the new emergent spear is green at first, until it's nearly half way out, and then it starts to turn red like the newest petiole next to it, Ed

[Dr. George]

Surely it would be considerably bigger if it were in the ground, Ed?

It certainly would Mike, But after three nights at -4,88 C./25 F. 12/2010, I'm gonna wait until it gets a little bigger, Ed

Suspect not. Have 2 "true ambos" from same source as Ed (see pics below for comparison). In the ground, in Hawaii, for 5 years. No appreciable growth. Took them both out last year - had heals and very little root systems.

Replaced them with 2 new specimens of the faster growing "true ambo".

Original plantings:

Original plant on the left, new replacement on the right:

gmp

[Got Palms]

Ok Matty what do u think i was given four of these by a good friend from down south by ur area, all have pronounced heels but this one is the reddest one?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Ok so let me get this straight. The authentic, and only, ambositrae is the number 2 on your list? What's the slow one then? Obviously something else?

I am no authority on this so I am going to go by what Jeff Marcus says, and calling 2) ambositrae. So that I don't get confused I am calling the third one kindreo and when I shop for ambositrae plants I make sure what I buy isn't a kindreo.

I'll wait until the taxonomists give them whatever names they care to give them before I invest in any palm signs. I would still love to hear an explanation as to why kindreo is getting labeled as ambositrae.

[trioderob]

May I have your attention please?

May I have your attention please?

Will the real AMBO please stand up?

I repeat, will the real AMBO please stand up?

Edited August 9, 2013 by trioderob

[richnorm]

Very tricky from photos but I suspect you have the same palm as Matty and Kenny but wouldn't dare to put a name on it. BTW I've seen two split so it can happen.

Richard, which ones do we have here in NZ? The slow ones or the faster one like Matty's in the first photo?

Hi Mike,

From the various seed imports of "true ambo" to NZ we have plants which I think of as four distinct types that either clearly look different or grow differently.

cheers

Richard

[richnorm]

Axel, they came in mixed with ambo (the fast one that resemble slick willy!).

Ok so let me get this straight. The authentic, and only, ambositrae is the number 2 on your list? What's the slow one then? Obviously something else?

I am no authority on this so I am going to go by what Jeff Marcus says, and calling 2) ambositrae. So that I don't get confused I am calling the third one kindreo and when I shop for ambositrae plants I make sure what I buy isn't a kindreo.

I'll wait until the taxonomists give them whatever names they care to give them before I invest in any palm signs. I would still love to hear an explanation as to why kindreo is getting labeled as ambositrae.

[Mike in Nelson]

Very tricky from photos but I suspect you have the same palm as Matty and Kenny but wouldn't dare to put a name on it. BTW I've seen two split so it can happen.

Richard, which ones do we have here in NZ? The slow ones or the faster one like Matty's in the first photo?

Hi Mike,

From the various seed imports of "true ambo" to NZ we have plants which I think of as four distinct types that either clearly look different or grow differently.

cheers

Richard

So as far as ambositrae is concerned, the jury is still out it seems...............

[edric]

Very tricky from photos but I suspect you have the same palm as Matty and Kenny but wouldn't dare to put a name on it. BTW I've seen two split so it can happen.

Richard, which ones do we have here in NZ? The slow ones or the faster one like Matty's in the first photo?

Hi Mike,

From the various seed imports of "true ambo" to NZ we have plants which I think of as four distinct types that either clearly look different or grow differently.

cheers

Richard

So as far as ambositrae is concerned, the jury is still out it seems...............

Yes, what it amounts to, is no one's got the extra money to go on expedition, and take photos of the last 5 or 6 (or whatever the number is) when they're in flower no less, and there are dozens of Dypsis species in the same situation, many may be extinct by now, Ed

[richnorm]

Ed, I'm sure the Kew palm project based in Mad. must have collected more material since the publication of PoM. In fact I know Dransfield found a new healthy population and I think also took specimens. It's frustrating not to have an updated botanical description, particularly flowers and fruit and some more pictures of juveniles wouldn't go amiss. I have a video which pans across young plants but doesn't stop long enough to get a decent still.

[trioderob]

sure is a lot a specutatin going on - round here................

Edited August 12, 2013 by trioderob