Can Palm Growing Give you Microclimate Envy?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

What's the cure for microclimate envy?

I usually check out our local Wunderground Weather map to see what's happening around the area in terms of temps and conditions. The USDA recently re-classified much of the upper Santa Cruz Mountains as USDA 10b. Now that I've been watching it for a while, I think they're right. So now I have climate envy, but this is not a healthy thing. Only 10 minutes from my house, and it goes from 10a to 10b, and the temps are literally like moving to a more tropical climate, see for yourself below. They don't drop much below 38F up there, although the elevation is high enough to get snow on occasional years. I should be grateful for a 10a zone, that's not bad, but 10b, imagine what could be grown up there.

This is my house, burr, 43F this Morning being under clear skies only 1,000 feet away from a wall of fog, after a brief climb to 74F, it's back to 50F by 9:30PM. Good hedycepe growing weather, but cold enough to slow down a lot of the Madagscar stuff.

And here's the USDA 10b location at 1,200 feet elevation, lows are just about 60F with highs in the 80's. Even at 10PM it's a balmy 63F. -> microclimate envy!

[Phoenikakias]

Nope, there is a vast variety of palm spss, one can chose among, so that only the most apropriate be grown in the particular garden. If further one is willing to take winter protection measures for some palms possibilities expand vastly. Only real absolute barriers are frost/freeze and lack of water. All palms when/if grown properly and thrive are equally spectacular!

Edited October 21, 2013 by Phoenikakias

[KennyRE317]

KCASCOTT4 info is pretty much on par with the data one station close to me shows except we had lows of 55.6

[Zeeth]

In Sarasota, my house is in a relatively good spot, but closer to the coast it's a little warmer and I know of at least one Pritchardia pacifica that made it through 2010. Much farther inland though, and the list of growable palms drop to the queen palm zone. Imagine living somewhere that the selection of growable palms is so small, but then every time you go to the beach you're laughed at by the rows and rows of coconuts.

[Tropicdoc]

I think I would just go to the beach more often

[joe_OC]

What is your record low?

[Jim in Los Altos]

My business partner and her daughter and husband haved owned their homes off Weston Rd. in Scotts Valley, CA for at least ten years and none of them report ever seeing any frost up there. It's an incredible microclimate. It's high enough in elevation to, once in a while, see some wet snow as the snow hasn't the time to melt before hitting the ground that high up.

[trioderob]

it makes all the difference in the world - palms skyrocket in growth when you get 5 miles form the coast.

[paulgila]

I don't agree rob. ever been to d. willoughbys garden? he is only a few blocks from the beach.

[_Keith]

A good near record freeze and losing a third to a half of one's palms usually cures it pretty well. It worked wonderfully for me. I have stayed in remission with no sign of return.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

A good near record freeze and losing a third to a half of one's palms usually cures it pretty well. It worked wonderfully for me. I have stayed in remission with no sign of return.

Oh, that sucks, bummer. I don't grow any 10b palms, in fact, I've been overly conservative over the years and doing mostly 9b stuff. I think I have maybe a dozen 10a palms. But getting rid of the palms wouldn't fix it for me anyway, from a human comfort point of view I would much prefer the warmer Summer nights and less fog. I actually got more palms as a means to befriend the fog and cool nights. Hedycepe, rhopies, ceroxylon, parajubaea all thrive with the higher dewpoints and cool nights.

[MattyB]

I don't agree rob. ever been to d. willoughbys garden? he is only a few blocks from the beach.

But Dennis Willoughby is 115 years old and has been growing palms since 1939 after seeing The Wizard Of Oz in the theater.

[palmsOrl]

Being within the Orlando urban heat island, I have a partially anthropogenic climate, where zone 10a (but not 10b!) palms such as royal, majesty, foxtail, bismarckia, Archontophoenix can survive long term. To be near the center of the peninsula as far north as Orlando, I count my blessings.

[Stevetoad]

What is there record low? It's one thing to be able to grow more tropical species but it would kill me to have a 7+ year old garden just to have a "once in 10 years" freeze kill off everything. I think record lows are more important than the avg temps that makeup the USDA zoning system.

[Halekuma]

When you guys talk about living in zone 10a/10b are you talking about your yearly average lowest or regarding your record low??? it makes a HUGE difference... I can say that my garden has never seen below -1C (32/31F) in the 15 years my family has been growing plants there but that not makes my garden a 10a... Considering in the 70s my place possibly saw at least -4C in a huge siberian cold wave that affected all europe...

I would never call my place 10a zone I would just say that Im happy to be enjoying mild winters for some decades until REALITY hits me in my face...

[Phoenikakias]

I feel both of you (Steve and Jaime) so..................much!

Edited October 22, 2013 by Phoenikakias

[joe_OC]

Yes, Steve and Jaime...

That was my point. You can have all the heat you want, but you better know what your record lows are, because that tropical yard of yours can melt in one arctic event.

Huntington Beach was a 10a zone until 2007, now it is 9b because temps got below 30.

So, Alex...What is your record low? A 10 year low is not the same thing. Also, a low of 29 degrees would make it zone 9b.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

What is there record low? It's one thing to be able to grow more tropical species but it would kill me to have a 7+ year old garden just to have a "once in 10 years" freeze kill off everything. I think record lows are more important than the avg temps that makeup the USDA zoning system.

You guys are funny, by your reasoning you better stick with growing apples then. Santee record low is somewhere in the kow 20's. Don't know about the European fellow but if it was - 4C in the 70s, I bet it's been lower than that sometimes earlier.

The USDA zoning system is based on a probability curve. Its the peak of a bell curve. On any given Winter, what is the probability of hitting certain lows? My bell curve peaks at 31F but extends on either side and it can gey ad low as 27F but it's rare. Even more rare are the century freezes, try 22F.

what you guys are describing is a zone 11a and even there expect 32F on some rare years and in some places even lower. And it sounds like both of you don't have anything near 11a.

Because of the bell curve, I try to stick with 9b palms or hardier but I do grow a small number of 10a palms judiciously placed in more protected places in the garden.

So indeed, yes, welcome to the reality of the USDA rating system. But planting according to a hundred year freeze means you better get rid of some of your palms, Steve. I feel your pain, planting exotic palms in Santee means living with some probability of loosing some on record freeze years. If you don't ever want to loose anything then 9a palms or apples are your best choices.

Time to move to Hawaii, it's inevitable.

[Gtlevine]

I don't care about my palms shaking and shivering, I just care about me shaking and shivering. I'm in a pretty warm microclimate for the palms, but for me personally, I hate it. Anything below 70F feels cold to me, so I am envious of tropical climates where no one ever has to leave to work when it's 40F in the morning.

Gary

[joe_OC]

What is there record low? It's one thing to be able to grow more tropical species but it would kill me to have a 7+ year old garden just to have a "once in 10 years" freeze kill off everything. I think record lows are more important than the avg temps that makeup the USDA zoning system.

You guys are funny, by your reasoning you better stick with growing apples then. Santee record low is somewhere in the kow 20's. Don't know about the European fellow but if it was - 4C in the 70s, I bet it's been lower than that sometimes earlier.

The USDA zoning system is based on a probability curve. Its the peak of a bell curve. On any given Winter, what is the probability of hitting certain lows? My bell curve peaks at 31F but extends on either side and it can gey ad low as 27F but it's rare. Even more rare are the century freezes, try 22F.

what you guys are describing is a zone 11a and even there expect 32F on some rare years and in some places even lower. And it sounds like both of you don't have anything near 11a.

Because of the bell curve, I try to stick with 9b palms or hardier but I do grow a small number of 10a palms judiciously placed in more protected places in the garden.

So indeed, yes, welcome to the reality of the USDA rating system. But planting according to a hundred year freeze means you better get rid of some of your palms, Steve. I feel your pain, planting exotic palms in Santee means living with some probability of loosing some on record freeze years. If you don't ever want to loose anything then 9a palms or apples are your best choices.

Time to move to Hawaii, it's inevitable.

Alex, I stand corrected...

The new USDA zones are based on the mean lowest temps in the past 30 years. This is different from how it was explained to me in the past. That means I am back in 10a...hahaha. I don't have micro-climate envy, I just have Hawaii climate envy.

The move to Hawaii IS inevitable!

[paulgila]

I don't agree rob. ever been to d. willoughbys garden? he is only a few blocks from the beach.

But Dennis Willoughby is 115 years old and has been growing palms since 1939 after seeing The Wizard Of Oz in the theater.

his palms are huge-mongous, it would've taken a mere mortal 200 years to grow em that big!

[Halekuma]

XX Century record low here dates from the 1956 (in Santander city), XXI Century record low was in 2005 and we rarely saw anything below -1C below canopy... Still our biggest problem to grow 10a palms/plants here are not low temps but lack of sun in winter and our cool temps from late november to mid march... Add too much rain during those months and you have a serious problem If you dont have the right soil.

To me " a good microclimate" is more than just a temperature issue but a combination of some more factors.

http://www.emiliopolis.net/es/int/cli/esp-minimas.htm

Edited October 22, 2013 by Halekuma

[palmsOrl]

What is there record low? It's one thing to be able to grow more tropical species but it would kill me to have a 7+ year old garden just to have a "once in 10 years" freeze kill off everything. I think record lows are more important than the avg temps that makeup the USDA zoning system.

Low temps close to record lows in Metro Orlando have not been seen in many years now. I believe this to be due to urbanization. Both major airports here (not including Sanford, which is well to the north) have not seen below 24F since 1989. During and prior to 1989, record freezes were always in the low 20s or even 18-19F. I even recall reading an obscure reference citing a low of 16F recorded where Orlando is located in the mid 1800s sometime. Over 150 years ago when the area was completely undeveloped, I totally find the 16F reading believable. 2010 wiped out my 10b stuff, but all the 10a palms/plants survived.

[palmsOrl]

I don't care about my palms shaking and shivering, I just care about me shaking and shivering. I'm in a pretty warm microclimate for the palms, but for me personally, I hate it. Anything below 70F feels cold to me, so I am envious of tropical climates where no one ever has to leave to work when it's 40F in the morning.

Gary

As I sweat my way having to make frequent trips outside in the heat and sun yesterday in a suit and tie (150th day of similar conditions) I actually found myself longing for some cold weather. I'll trade you!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I don't care about my palms shaking and shivering, I just care about me shaking and shivering. I'm in a pretty warm microclimate for the palms, but for me personally, I hate it. Anything below 70F feels cold to me, so I am envious of tropical climates where no one ever has to leave to work when it's 40F in the morning.

Gary

You would hate my place, pretty bone chilling cold even in the Summer. Your comment made me realize now I have microclimate envy because I miss warm balmy Summers. Up there at 1200 feet it's mostly above the marine layer and the nights are much warmer, you can actually sit outside at night.

I think I would love Hawaii but I would miss the chill in the Winter. It's nice to think of all the palms that grow there, but what about running the fireplace and Spring blossoms?

[trioderob]

all I know is that when its 73 F the palms are growing slow

at 83F they are growing fast

its 73 on the coast alot

Edited October 22, 2013 by trioderob

[Eric in Orlando]

What is there record low? It's one thing to be able to grow more tropical species but it would kill me to have a 7+ year old garden just to have a "once in 10 years" freeze kill off everything. I think record lows are more important than the avg temps that makeup the USDA zoning system.

Low temps close to record lows in Metro Orlando have not been seen in many years now. I believe this to be due to urbanization. Both major airports here (not including Sanford, which is well to the north) have not seen below 24F since 1989. During and prior to 1989, record freezes were always in the low 20s or even 18-19F. I even recall reading an obscure reference citing a low of 16F recorded where Orlando is located in the mid 1800s sometime. Over 150 years ago when the area was completely undeveloped, I totally find the 16F reading believable. 2010 wiped out my 10b stuff, but all the 10a palms/plants survived.

I have worked at Leu Gardens since 11/92. The coldest recorded in that time is 26F in Feb. 1996. The absolute coldest we had in the 2009-10 winter was 29F. But there were 12 nights below 32F, the other 11 being 30-32. So that year was the continous cool/cold, not absolute lows.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

all I know is that when its 73 F the palms are growing slow

at 83F they are growing fast

its 73 on the coast alot

it's true, when it's in the 80's I see a lot more white on spears in the Morning.

[Gtlevine]

all I know is that when its 73 F the palms are growing slow

at 83F they are growing fast

its 73 on the coast alot

My temps are up in the high 80's low 90's and it does help growth Rob, but that is not the determining factor. The nightime lows in the summer determine the ultimate rate of growth in my opinion. When my nightime lows are averaging 65F and above, the palms rocket in growth regardless of daytime temps.

Gary

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

all I know is that when its 73 F the palms are growing slow

at 83F they are growing fast

its 73 on the coast alot

My temps are up in the high 80's low 90's and it does help growth Rob, but that is not the determining factor. The nightime lows in the summer determine the ultimate rate of growth in my opinion. When my nightime lows are averaging 65F and above, the palms rocket in growth regardless of daytime temps.

Gary

This is most definitely true of a lot of the Madagascar palms, especially lower elevation species, and especially all the Florida and Carribean stuff which thrives on hot and sticky humid weather. But it's not true of all the high elevation palms nor of the stuff from New Zealand and Lord Howe island. Those palms are rockets up here with the cooler nights. I can't imagine any of those palms being happy in Escondito.

[trioderob]

all I know is that when its 73 F the palms are growing slow

at 83F they are growing fast

its 73 on the coast alot

My temps are up in the high 80's low 90's and it does help growth Rob, but that is not the determining factor. The nightime lows in the summer determine the ultimate rate of growth in my opinion. When my nightime lows are averaging 65F and above, the palms rocket in growth regardless of daytime temps.

Gary

lets say you are in Aug.

by 8 PM its cooling off on the coast - drive 5 miles inland and it is still hot as an oven

so the day and night temps are MUCH higher

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

all I know is that when its 73 F the palms are growing slow

at 83F they are growing fast

its 73 on the coast alot

My temps are up in the high 80's low 90's and it does help growth Rob, but that is not the determining factor. The nightime lows in the summer determine the ultimate rate of growth in my opinion. When my nightime lows are averaging 65F and above, the palms rocket in growth regardless of daytime temps.

Gary

lets say you are in Aug.

by 8 PM its cooling off on the coast - drive 5 miles inland and it is still hot as an oven

so the day and night temps are MUCH higher

Encinitas: average July low = 68F

Vista: average July low = 61F

Might be hotter in the evening 5 miles from the ocean, but it cools down overnight and by Morning it's colder.

What you need is Pasadena, above 800 feet - average July high: 93F, average July low: 69F, tht's going to give you growth on real tropical palms.

Basically go inland a few miles and go up to around 1,000 feet and you've got the perfect growing climate.

[trioderob]

that's just about my micro:

8 miles inland and about 600 ft

highs avg in summer 86 F with a low of 65 F

"May Grey" and" June Gloom" ends about a mile west of me every day.

Edited October 22, 2013 by trioderob

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

that's just about my micro:

8 miles inland and about 600 ft

highs avg in summer 86 F with a low of 65 F

"May Grey" and" June Gloom" ends about a mile west of me every day.

You're lucky, you picked a good spot. 6 miles inland here at about 1,200 feet it's about the same Summer stats as yours. Lots of evenings are in the upper 70's late into the night.

[Gtlevine]

all I know is that when its 73 F the palms are growing slow

at 83F they are growing fast

its 73 on the coast alot

My temps are up in the high 80's low 90's and it does help growth Rob, but that is not the determining factor. The nightime lows in the summer determine the ultimate rate of growth in my opinion. When my nightime lows are averaging 65F and above, the palms rocket in growth regardless of daytime temps.

Gary

lets say you are in Aug.

by 8 PM its cooling off on the coast - drive 5 miles inland and it is still hot as an oven

so the day and night temps are MUCH higher

Encinitas: average July low = 68F

Vista: average July low = 61F

Might be hotter in the evening 5 miles from the ocean, but it cools down overnight and by Morning it's colder.

What you need is Pasadena, above 800 feet - average July high: 93F, average July low: 69F, tht's going to give you growth on real tropical palms.

Basically go inland a few miles and go up to around 1,000 feet and you've got the perfect growing climate.

Im at 971 FT, about 20 miles inland. But even out here Alex a microclimate can change just a half mile away. Edited October 22, 2013 by Gtlevine

[Alicehunter2000]

Will be interesting to see what microclimate this place is becoming. It should be cooler in tn e summer with shade of the canopy and coastal influences. It should be warmer in winter for the same reason. I am really tempted to try some cooler loving palms that one would not normally try in Florida. Hopefullywill know more after this winter.

[Stevetoad]

What is there record low? It's one thing to be able to grow more tropical species but it would kill me to have a 7+ year old garden just to have a "once in 10 years" freeze kill off everything. I think record lows are more important than the avg temps that makeup the USDA zoning system.

You guys are funny, by your reasoning you better stick with growing apples then. Santee record low is somewhere in the kow 20's. Don't know about the European fellow but if it was - 4C in the 70s, I bet it's been lower than that sometimes earlier.

The USDA zoning system is based on a probability curve. Its the peak of a bell curve. On any given Winter, what is the probability of hitting certain lows? My bell curve peaks at 31F but extends on either side and it can gey ad low as 27F but it's rare. Even more rare are the century freezes, try 22F.

what you guys are describing is a zone 11a and even there expect 32F on some rare years and in some places even lower. And it sounds like both of you don't have anything near 11a.

Because of the bell curve, I try to stick with 9b palms or hardier but I do grow a small number of 10a palms judiciously placed in more protected places in the garden.

So indeed, yes, welcome to the reality of the USDA rating system. But planting according to a hundred year freeze means you better get rid of some of your palms, Steve. I feel your pain, planting exotic palms in Santee means living with some probability of loosing some on record freeze years. If you don't ever want to loose anything then 9a palms or apples are your best choices.

Time to move to Hawaii, it's inevitable.

Santees record low is 25f. My point is that my zone is 10a but I know for sure that 10b palms will burn/die on the regular. The usda says my zone is 10a but I still get frost atleast 5 times a year so I better take that into account. You also have to figure out your heat too. My palms get damage in winter but grow out of it pretty fast as I heat up in spring. (Jastin can confirm this). So by early to mid summer my palms mostly look like winter never happend. I've come to the point now that I know I don't want any ratty looking palms that "I can grow" when I can grow so many palms that look good all year. I just comes down to what you want. A garden that always looks great or rarer more tender palms that look like they are on the brink of death for 10 months out of the year and will most likely be killed off after years of trying your hardest to make the happy. I've had enough palms break my heart already.

[Jastin]

What is there record low? It's one thing to be able to grow more tropical species but it would kill me to have a 7+ year old garden just to have a "once in 10 years" freeze kill off everything. I think record lows are more important than the avg temps that makeup the USDA zoning system.

You guys are funny, by your reasoning you better stick with growing apples then. Santee record low is somewhere in the kow 20's. Don't know about the European fellow but if it was - 4C in the 70s, I bet it's been lower than that sometimes earlier.

The USDA zoning system is based on a probability curve. Its the peak of a bell curve. On any given Winter, what is the probability of hitting certain lows? My bell curve peaks at 31F but extends on either side and it can gey ad low as 27F but it's rare. Even more rare are the century freezes, try 22F.

what you guys are describing is a zone 11a and even there expect 32F on some rare years and in some places even lower. And it sounds like both of you don't have anything near 11a.

Because of the bell curve, I try to stick with 9b palms or hardier but I do grow a small number of 10a palms judiciously placed in more protected places in the garden.

So indeed, yes, welcome to the reality of the USDA rating system. But planting according to a hundred year freeze means you better get rid of some of your palms, Steve. I feel your pain, planting exotic palms in Santee means living with some probability of loosing some on record freeze years. If you don't ever want to loose anything then 9a palms or apples are your best choices.

Time to move to Hawaii, it's inevitable.

Santees record low is 25f. My point is that my zone is 10a but I know for sure that 10b palms will burn/die on the regular. The usda says my zone is 10a but I still get frost atleast 5 times a year so I better take that into account. You also have to figure out your heat too. My palms get damage in winter but grow out of it pretty fast as I heat up in spring. (Jastin can confirm this). So by early to mid summer my palms mostly look like winter never happend. I've come to the point now that I know I don't want any ratty looking palms that "I can grow" when I can grow so many palms that look good all year. I just comes down to what you want. A garden that always looks great or rarer more tender palms that look like they are on the brink of death for 10 months out of the year and will most likely be killed off after years of trying your hardest to make the happy. I've had enough palms break my heart already.

Another thing to add....the USDA zone system doesnt know the kind of micro climates at each home. Steves place gets a little colder than me at night in the winter but it is always warmer during the day (summer and winter). Because he has so much heat and a longer growing season than me I would think that when those rare really low temps hit he would have enough canopy of hardy stuff to get through the bad winters. I know last winter was pretty rough for all of us (except me ) and and after seeing many pictures of Steves palms having ICE on them I would have thought that he would be planting a entire new garden this spring. Many things (even tender stuff) survived because of his day time high and early spring. If you look at his garden now you will never notice that he had damage.

I used to have climate envy but after weighing the odds of the stickyness and high a/c bills I believe im happy with where i live. Hardly any bugs here and my lowest temp in 5 years was one night of 33. before that I believe it was 37. Never a frost (on the garden) for me yet. If a cold snap comes along ad kills stuff ill just take it out and replace it. I love my plants but I dont cry over split milk.

[joe_OC]

I like how Sunset does it better with their definition of zones and taking more things into account instead of just low temps.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

What is there record low? It's one thing to be able to grow more tropical species but it would kill me to have a 7+ year old garden just to have a "once in 10 years" freeze kill off everything. I think record lows are more important than the avg temps that makeup the USDA zoning system.

You guys are funny, by your reasoning you better stick with growing apples then. Santee record low is somewhere in the kow 20's. Don't know about the European fellow but if it was - 4C in the 70s, I bet it's been lower than that sometimes earlier.

The USDA zoning system is based on a probability curve. Its the peak of a bell curve. On any given Winter, what is the probability of hitting certain lows? My bell curve peaks at 31F but extends on either side and it can gey ad low as 27F but it's rare. Even more rare are the century freezes, try 22F.

what you guys are describing is a zone 11a and even there expect 32F on some rare years and in some places even lower. And it sounds like both of you don't have anything near 11a.

Because of the bell curve, I try to stick with 9b palms or hardier but I do grow a small number of 10a palms judiciously placed in more protected places in the garden.

So indeed, yes, welcome to the reality of the USDA rating system. But planting according to a hundred year freeze means you better get rid of some of your palms, Steve. I feel your pain, planting exotic palms in Santee means living with some probability of loosing some on record freeze years. If you don't ever want to loose anything then 9a palms or apples are your best choices.

Time to move to Hawaii, it's inevitable.

Santees record low is 25f. My point is that my zone is 10a but I know for sure that 10b palms will burn/die on the regular. The usda says my zone is 10a but I still get frost atleast 5 times a year so I better take that into account. You also have to figure out your heat too. My palms get damage in winter but grow out of it pretty fast as I heat up in spring. (Jastin can confirm this). So by early to mid summer my palms mostly look like winter never happend. I've come to the point now that I know I don't want any ratty looking palms that "I can grow" when I can grow so many palms that look good all year. I just comes down to what you want. A garden that always looks great or rarer more tender palms that look like they are on the brink of death for 10 months out of the year and will most likely be killed off after years of trying your hardest to make the happy. I've had enough palms break my heart already.

I totally agree with that assessment. I don't usually let a palm linger that long, if it looks bad I don't hesitate a second and yank it. I am less interested in rare palms but more interested in the tropical look. There are plenty of palms that are bullet proof for my climate that give my garden a very tropical look. I still like to try out different stuff just to see what sorts of results I get. I have never planted a 10b palm and the few 10a palms I have are on my hill under canopy.

Another thing to add....the USDA zone system doesnt know the kind of micro climates at each home. Steves place gets a little colder than me at night in the winter but it is always warmer during the day (summer and winter). Because he has so much heat and a longer growing season than me I would think that when those rare really low temps hit he would have enough canopy of hardy stuff to get through the bad winters. I know last winter was pretty rough for all of us (except me ) and and after seeing many pictures of Steves palms having ICE on them I would have thought that he would be planting a entire new garden this spring. Many things (even tender stuff) survived because of his day time high and early spring. If you look at his garden now you will never notice that he had damage.

Santees record low is 25f. My point is that my zone is 10a but I know for sure that 10b palms will burn/die on the regular. The usda says my zone is 10a but I still get frost atleast 5 times a year so I better take that into account. You also have to figure out your heat too. My palms get damage in winter but grow out of it pretty fast as I heat up in spring. (Jastin can confirm this). So by early to mid summer my palms mostly look like winter never happend. I've come to the point now that I know I don't want any ratty looking palms that "I can grow" when I can grow so many palms that look good all year. I just comes down to what you want. A garden that always looks great or rarer more tender palms that look like they are on the brink of death for 10 months out of the year and will most likely be killed off after years of trying your hardest to make the happy. I've had enough palms break my heart already.

I used to have climate envy but after weighing the odds of the stickyness and high a/c bills I believe im happy with where i live. Hardly any bugs here and my lowest temp in 5 years was one night of 33. before that I believe it was 37. Never a frost (on the garden) for me yet. If a cold snap comes along ad kills stuff ill just take it out and replace it. I love my plants but I dont cry over split milk.

There's always tradoffs. I like my spot even if I would prefer a slightly warmer climate. I can checkout the surf through my binoculars and I don't have to drive windy mountain roads to get into town and to the beach. And I really don't want to have to deal with snow on my palms either, wet or otherwise. Deeper in the mountains means less neighbors, and I have my share of cooky neighbors here. I guess you just can't have it all.

I have bullet proof substitutes waiting in my nursery for some of the experimental crap to croak. For example, two of my bec. windows croaked, and I am planting ceroxylon and dypsis ambositrae in their place. I have little luck with lower elevation tropical palms, there are a few exceptions, but the highland stuff is better. I don't think the hedycepes would appreciate the weeks of 100F with lows in the 70's at the higher elevations.

I guess that was the point of the thread: can planting the wrong palms make you wish you lived somewhere else? I think the answer is yes, and perhaps it's best to let the climate just weed out the palms for you.