Livistona Mariae and Livistona Rigida

[Sandy Loam]

I am having some difficulty finding any online information about Livistona Mariae and Livistona Rigida, except that they are similar and share a common ancestry. Does anyone know anything, not only about differences between the two, but also the following:

- lowest temperature they will tolerate without defoliating (l. mariae vs. l. rigida)

- eventual height, and how many years It would take to obtain that height in a subtropical climate (I am in the north of Florida, not the south which is a very different climate)

- whether they will tolerate a location of shade and filtered light (perhaps only an hour of sun per day)

- soil requirements: will they tolerate heavy clay soil or are they strictly sand lovers? Some livistonas love wet, clay soil, but I know nothing about rigida and mariae

- what are the differences between the two palms with respect to all criteria listed above, in addition to appearance, e.g. online photos perhaps suggest that l. marae grows taller and is more likely to have weeping leaf tips as an adult than l. rigida, but this is pure conjecture.

Your comments would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have a trio of these, one was labeled mariae, one was labeled rigida and one rigida/mariae. The mariae is larger and lost all of its red and now looks droopy like a decora. The other two look identical and are red with upward rigid leaves.

I treat them like decoras when it comes to hardiness. However, unlike decora, these are less tolerant of cold and wet soil, as they also are quite more prone to fungal rot of any sorts.

[Kostas]

I have been growing Livistona mariae a couple years now and can say they do fine in clay soil(amended around their base with organics and sand) and can take heavy shade without problems even in wet climates(I get 1m+ of rain spread over 9 months) and cool winter weather. The lowest my potted ones in Melissia have seen is around -3C to -4C and they didn't damage but they don't like pots in really rainy and cold weather,roots suffer somewhat and take a while to get going again in spring. My in ground ones in Pyrgos haven't seen much cold but have seen an aweful lot of rain and they only like it,no problems there

[Phoenikakias]

My mariae outplanted suffered quite during the two recent freeze/frost events of 2004 and 2008 but it survived without spearpull. On the other hand a freshly outplanted rigida got irreversibly fried during same cold event of 2008. BTW my mariae under no circumstances looks like a decora, it has a substantially thicker trunk and leaves, so long unaffected by wind, are strongly costa palmate, gray with rigid leaflets. It certailnly reminds a desert palm!

Edited November 6, 2013 by Phoenikakias

[Sandy Loam]

Phoenikakias, how many degrees below freezing were the Livistona Mariae and Livistona Rigida exposed to in 2004 and 2008?

[Phoenikakias]

In 2004 two consecutive days with snowfall and min of -2 C. In 2008 I estimate a half day snowfall and min -1 C.

[Mandrew968]

I believe they used to be thought of as two distinct species, but are now considered the same species--it was once thought they were separated by a lot of time, but now we know they have only be separated by a very short ammount of time and distributed by humans--not natural geographic isolation(which is part of what makes new species).

[MattyB]

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do

Kew Monocot Checklist shows that they are two different species.

[Mandrew968]

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do

Kew Monocot Checklist shows that they are two different species.

Matty, are you familiar with what I was talking about?

As for Kew checklist, I don't check that--it doesn't have a description of all the names listed so it can't be completely up-to-date. An example: it probably has Drymophloeus species listed and that genus will soon be absorbed into others. Lytocaryum too...

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

My mariae outplanted suffered quite during the two recent freeze/frost events of 2004 and 2008 but it survived without spearpull. On the other hand a freshly outplanted rigida got irreversibly fried during same cold event of 2008. BTW my mariae under no circumstances looks like a decora, it has a substantially thicker trunk and leaves, so long unaffected by wind, are strongly costa palmate, gray with rigid leaflets. It certailnly reminds a desert palm!

Pictures please! My larger mariae looks almost identical to a decora, i.e. not very interesting. It looks just like the one shown in rarepalmseeds.com, droopy leaves. It is noticably more prone to fungus though. I had to treat it with some fungicide last Spring whereas I never have to mess with the decoras.

[MattyB]

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do

Kew Monocot Checklist shows that they are two different species.

Matty, are you familiar with what I was talking about?

As for Kew checklist, I don't check that--it doesn't have a description of all the names listed so it can't be completely up-to-date. An example: it probably has Drymophloeus species listed and that genus will soon be absorbed into others. Lytocaryum too...

I thought that I read somewhere that they were considered the same species as well, which is why I checked. Isn't Kew's Monocot Checklist the authority on the currently accepted names?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I doubt rigida and mariae are the same, look at the seedling stage. Mariae is droopy, rigida is rigid. If they are the same species, they are slightly different forms of the same species.

Rarepalmseeds says this: From L. mariae it differs mainly in having shorter, slightly glaucous leaves with segments only briefly split at the tip as well as in the slightly smaller fruits.

L. mariae:

L. rigida

In summary:

l. mariae:

- From the hot and dry interior of Central Australia

- prefers dryish conditions with access to ground water

- bigger, droopy fronds

- greener colored when mature

- larger seeds

- more subsceptible to fungus

l. rigida:

- From northern central Australia to northwestern Queensland

- probably more tolerant of higher humidity

- smaller, more rigid fronds

- glaucus green when mature

- smaller seeds

- probably less fungus prone

[Eric in Orlando]

I believe L. mariae is much more cold tolerant, probably similar to L. decora. I believe Dr. Wilcox in Gainesville has a specimen that has seen upper teensF.

On the other hand, I had a young L. rigida at a previous residence I lived at. It was about 5-6ft tall and had fairly moderate cold damage in Feb. 1996 after 26F with heavy frost. A nearby L. decora had none.

[Sandy Loam]

Thanks, Eric. That's the kind of information I was looking for. If anyone else has any additional knowledge about their cold hardiness, height, growth rate, climate needs, soil, etc., please post do it. I appreciate your help.

As for the debate on the origins of these palms, there apparently was research published on this topic in 2012 which is summarized here:

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/australian-palms-may-have-migrated-with-aborigines/

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Thanks, Eric. That's the kind of information I was looking for. If anyone else has any additional knowledge about their cold hardiness, height, growth rate, climate needs, soil, etc., please post do it. I appreciate your help.

As for the debate on the origins of these palms, there apparently was research published on this topic in 2012 which is summarized here:

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/australian-palms-may-have-migrated-with-aborigines/

That article is fascinating. If I read it right, the Aborigines carried the rigida seeds to central Australia where additional natural selection over a period of some 30K years has changed the genetics slightly. This actually supports the theory that one can take a palm species and select for hardier, more drought tolerant strains.

[Phoenikakias]

My mariae outplanted suffered quite during the two recent freeze/frost events of 2004 and 2008 but it survived without spearpull. On the other hand a freshly outplanted rigida got irreversibly fried during same cold event of 2008. BTW my mariae under no circumstances looks like a decora, it has a substantially thicker trunk and leaves, so long unaffected by wind, are strongly costa palmate, gray with rigid leaflets. It certailnly reminds a desert palm!

Pictures please! My larger mariae looks almost identical to a decora, i.e. not very interesting. It looks just like the one shown in rarepalmseeds.com, droopy leaves. It is noticably more prone to fungus though. I had to treat it with some fungicide last Spring whereas I never have to mess with the decoras.

Check please post nr 65 in this topic http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/37295-cold-hardy-blue-palms/page-2#entry583726 and post nr 13 in this topic http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/34124-livistona-id-please/page-1#entry541649 . Axel I guess you have a much higher air humidity than I do in summer (this why you can grow also Dypsis), which affects the desert-palm look of your mariae!

[gyuseppe]

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/23106-livistona-mariae-and-livistona-rigida/?hl=%2Blivistona+%2Brigida+%2Band+%2Bmariae

have resisted to -3 /-4 degrees celsius without problems

livistona mariae and livistona Rigina not resemble to livistona decora,for me!

[palmaddict]

Although distinct looking when younger most would be challenged to tell the difference when they are about six to eight feet in overall planted height. I have about a half dozen of both decora and mariae. If you put the older ones side by side and look long enough you can see a slight difference in them even as maturing adults but a sole palm standing alone would be a tough call to identify. Will try and take some images this weekend. I use these in both the tropical and try portions of my garden. Nice canopy creators, not overwhelmingly dense in foliage, and some of the nicest Livistonas. They make a nice contrast to pinnate palms.

patrick

[Walter John]

Both these Australian Livistonas should be able to take cold nights well, mariae more so, even some frost I'd imagine, rigida habitat sees it grow amongst foilage until finding sun (generally) mariaes in more full sun. They both tap into regular water, I would say try and give them more full sun than not even as juveniles, they can be big mothers when grown well.

Google their main habitats for more info:

L.mariae = Finke Gorge National Park, Northern Territory, Australia.

L.rigida = Mataranka Hot Springs, Northern Territory, Australia.

Good luck, my mistake in the past with Livistonas, for what it's worth, was holding on to them in pots too long, so like the big Dypsis, get them into the ground asap. Cheers.

[tropicbreeze]

As for Kew checklist, I don't check that--it doesn't have a description of all the names listed so it can't be completely up-to-date. An example: it probably has Drymophloeus species listed and that genus will soon be absorbed into others. Lytocaryum too...

The Kew World Checklist is updated daily and accepted as the authority on plant names. The name not accepted is L. mariae subsp rigida. Some time in future both might become accepted as one species but at present they're not.

Superficially though, there are differences but whether those are enough to keep them apart is another matter. Mariae does have weepier leaflets as was pointed out, and that's consistent over all plants I've seen. It also has a less "rigid" trunk. Not uncommon to see mariae with spiralling in the trunk, and kinks are very common. Rigida always has an upright growth. Trunks on an angle seem to always maintain that angle rather than curve back up.

[Phoenikakias]

Although distinct looking when younger most would be challenged to tell the difference when they are about six to eight feet in overall planted height. I have about a half dozen of both decora and mariae. If you put the older ones side by side and look long enough you can see a slight difference in them even as maturing adults but a sole palm standing alone would be a tough call to identify. Will try and take some images this weekend. I use these in both the tropical and try portions of my garden. Nice canopy creators, not overwhelmingly dense in foliage, and some of the nicest Livistonas. They make a nice contrast to pinnate palms.

patrick

Doesn't make any sense to me! Either I do not have a mariae, or there are several forms of mariae or mariae has a significantly different look according to specific climatic conditions it grows. Here decora and mariae are day and night in difference.

[Phoenikakias]

As for Kew checklist, I don't check that--it doesn't have a description of all the names listed so it can't be completely up-to-date. An example: it probably has Drymophloeus species listed and that genus will soon be absorbed into others. Lytocaryum too...

The Kew World Checklist is updated daily and accepted as the authority on plant names. The name not accepted is L. mariae subsp rigida. Some time in future both might become accepted as one species but at present they're not.

Superficially though, there are differences but whether those are enough to keep them apart is another matter. Mariae does have weepier leaflets as was pointed out, and that's consistent over all plants I've seen. It also has a less "rigid" trunk. Not uncommon to see mariae with spiralling in the trunk, and kinks are very common. Rigida always has an upright growth. Trunks on an angle seem to always maintain that angle rather than curve back up.

Doesn't make any sense to me as well! The basal part of my mariae (with boots of course) is nearly as fatty as this of a CIDP! I shall measure circumference of basal parts both of my mariae and my decora (also still booty) and post here results.

[Jonathan]

They are seperate species, living in totally different climates.

Dowe seperated them in 2009. Rigida lives in a fully tropical monsoonal climate, mariae in an inland desert climate subject to extremes of temperature (comparitively).

The 'rigida' in the name refers to leaflet characteristics and has nothing to do with the trunk.

These species are seperated by 1000km of desert - if the seperation occurred 30,000 years ago, that's more than enough time to establish speciation.

Homo sapiens has only existed in it's modern form for what - 100,000 years?

Probably neither species are fully suited to the humidity and sometime cold of north Florida, but both would be well worth trying!

Good luck.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Miccles]

Hi all,

Good discussion topic. Here is my L.mariae, which had lost it's colour before I even purchased it. It is growing in soil with a decent clay content, gets 3/4 day sun and I keep watering to a minimum during dry season. Wouldn't consider it a fast grower.

Regards

Michael.

[sonoranfans]

Florida data(palmateer) on cold hardiness have both rigida and mariae surviving 19F (as ~8 foot specimens) in the late 90's with defoliation. I don't put much stock in the cold hardiness reports of small, unestablished palms. I seriously doubt rigida is only good to 25F.... Both seemed to thrive on heat and mariae grew notably faster in Arizona than florida for me. I saw one mariae go from a strap leaf seedling to 10' overall in 27 months in Arizona(3 summers). These are the two best livistonas I have seen in the dry heat, no doubt. Decoras, austrailis chinensis all need protection from Arizona sun as seedlings/juveniles, not so rigida and mariae. My recollection is that most references identify rigida as the bigger palm of the two.

[Eric in Orlando]

L. rigida might be hardier as it gets older but mine was burnt at 26F with heavy frost. It had been planted for 3 years and the leaves reached up nearly 6ft. It was well established, growing on sandy soil but with a high water table. It had a full crown of fronds and a very robust trunk. It did recover and grew to about 12ft tall. About 10 years ago the owners of the house removed it and a 20ft Acrocomia aculeata I had also planted.

[sonoranfans]

L. rigida might be hardier as it gets older but mine was burnt at 26F with heavy frost. It had been planted for 3 years and the leaves reached up nearly 6ft. It was well established, growing on sandy soil but with a high water table. It had a full crown of fronds and a very robust trunk. It did recover and grew to about 12ft tall. About 10 years ago the owners of the house removed it and a 20ft Acrocomia aculeata I had also planted.

from palmateer:

http://bizmark.8m.com/custom2.html

LIVISTONA sps.: mature specimens of saribus, decepiens, australis, and chinensis have survived lows to 19f w/out major damage. Species mariae, mariae var. Rigida and drudei were defoliated or severely damaged at 19f but the vast majority recovered. The rigida variety is slightly hardier than mariae. Other reports: L.humilis killed @ 22f (Day.); L.carinensis was undamaged @ 25f (Sebring); L.jenkinsiana was slightly damaged @ 26f (Orl.); L.muellerii (2 ft) was killed @ 23f (Orl.) but larger palms survived 19f (Mel.) w/ major damage; recent plantings of L.inermis, L.nitida (Carnavorn Gorge) and L.fulva (Blackdown Tablelands) have survived 29-28f lows (Orl.) undamaged. L.robinsoniana was killed @ 22f (Day.); the similar growing L.rotundifolia was defoliated but recovered from 26f (Orl.) and 25f lows (Day.). One last species, L.benthamii has survived 19f low growing in coastal Indian River county.

the comment "the vast majority recovered" suggests that multiples were involved.... The wet roots thing would have me concerned in winter. Rigida was a very well desert adapted palm for me in phoenix, even at a young age, certainly much better than decora or austrailis, both of which readily burned in western sun. Florida is much more kinds to my palms, much less harsh. Perhaps rigida didn't like the high water table. Was your mariae planted in the same high water table?

[Eric in Orlando]

This was planted at my house. I didn't have a L. mariae, just a rigida. But it grew just find, no fungal spotting or bud rots. Just frost burn. It was growing in my backyard which was open with no protection. The same freeze killed a Dypsis decaryi and Wodyetia. A nearby Livistona fulva had light burn and the Acrocomia aculeata was moderately burnt.

We have a L. mariae at Leu Gardens, about 8-9ft tall. Its been a slow grower but never damaged by cold (it has seen as low as 27F) and no issues from humidity/high rainfall. Same with L. rigida. Both are slow growers.

[Daryl]

All of the mature L.mariae I have seen are much larger overall than L.rigida. They grow taller and usually have a swollen base that can be quite large in diameter. They don't seem to hold so many leaves in the crown either, with the general effect being a more open crown than L.rigida.

Daryl

[tropicbreeze]

The 'rigida' in the name refers to leaflet characteristics and has nothing to do with the trunk.

It doesn't matter what "rigida" means or refers to, it's a factual observation that the trunks of rigida appear more rigid than those of mariae. It gives them a different appearance.

.

Perhaps rigida didn't like the high water table. Was your mariae planted in the same high water table?

Rigida grows standing in water, ie water table above ground level.

All of the mature L.mariae I have seen are much larger overall than L.rigida. They grow taller and usually have a swollen base that can be quite large in diameter. They don't seem to hold so many leaves in the crown either, with the general effect being a more open crown than L.rigida.

Daryl

I'd agree about the size, my impression is that mariae get taller than rigida. But I wouldn't agree about the crowns. You see about the same amount of sky through both of them.

[tank]

Have both,

No fungal issues either. North Florida is pretty humid. Swampy some would say.

My two L. mariae are in areas with a high water table that were pretty much inundated during the summer this year. Plants grew like rockets. From reading the descriptions of where these plants are found, is it possible that the desert/arid conditions came to them (desertification) rather than them originally being adapted to these dry and arid conditions?

[tropicbreeze]

Mariae aren't adapted to "dry and arid conditions". They grow along the creek and springs in Mpulungkinya (Palm Valley), often standing directly in water. The water is permanent and no palms grow away from it. The main population is within the valley and a small population is downstream in the main river, The Finke. The Finke goes out into the sand dune country, and no palms anywhere along the river bed out there.

Rigida are widespread, from the semi-arid areas around Mataranka to the hot humid monsoonal areas along the north coast. They're not actually coastal but they get to the tidal reaches of some of the northern rivers where they mix with L. benthamii.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Mariae aren't adapted to "dry and arid conditions". They grow along the creek and springs in Mpulungkinya (Palm Valley), often standing directly in water. The water is permanent and no palms grow away from it. The main population is within the valley and a small population is downstream in the main river, The Finke. The Finke goes out into the sand dune country, and no palms anywhere along the river bed out there.

Rigida are widespread, from the semi-arid areas around Mataranka to the hot humid monsoonal areas along the north coast. They're not actually coastal but they get to the tidal reaches of some of the northern rivers where they mix with L. benthamii.

Do you think they're different enough in adaptation? Isn't Mpulungkinya completely arid as opposed to semi-arid so that if rigida were brought there today they'd behave the same way, or do they behave differently?

[tropicbreeze]

The climate there for mariae is arid, rainfall is very irregular. However, it's part of a vast sandstone area and sandstone of course is like a sponge. A lot of water is held in the sandstone and continuously seeps into the valley. Hence the permanent water that the palms depend on.

The intriguing thing for me is that if the seeds were transported by Aborigines some 15,000 to 30,000 years ago, why aren't the palms also growing in the hundreds of similar environments between the current locations of mariae and rigida? In that amount of time you'd think that more than just the one person would have thought of carrying some seeds.

Regarding adaptation, the only thing I can figure is mariae becoming more cold tolerant. It gets extremely cold there - continental climate just south of the tropic of Capricorn. Very dry air on clear nights means extreme cold. It will freeze the top of water in a bucket left out over night. But otherwise both species grow in or very close to water.

[Phoenikakias]

Thanks tropicbreeze for the supplied information. If mariae is probably more adapted to freeze, then it makes aslo sense that it is more adapted to cold, dessicating wind.

[Walter John]

To understand Central and Northern central Australia palm tree life is an itinerary that is so important and vital to understanding palm tree growth, it just has to be experienced. Are you ready ? I am.

[Mandrew968]

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do

Kew Monocot Checklist shows that they are two different species.

Matty, are you familiar with what I was talking about?

As for Kew checklist, I don't check that--it doesn't have a description of all the names listed so it can't be completely up-to-date. An example: it probably has Drymophloeus species listed and that genus will soon be absorbed into others. Lytocaryum too...

I thought that I read somewhere that they were considered the same species as well, which is why I checked. Isn't Kew's Monocot Checklist the authority on the currently accepted names?

Matty, it's been my experiences that the world of palms is often changing so rapidly that most taxonimists are "too busy" to update everything faster than "all deliberate speed"...

[Mandrew968]

I believe L. mariae is much more cold tolerant, probably similar to L. decora. I believe Dr. Wilcox in Gainesville has a specimen that has seen upper teensF.

On the other hand, I had a young L. rigida at a previous residence I lived at. It was about 5-6ft tall and had fairly moderate cold damage in Feb. 1996 after 26F with heavy frost. A nearby L. decora had none.

Eric, these may be the same species just like robinsoniana and 'rotundifolia' are the same.

[Mandrew968]

L. rigida might be hardier as it gets older but mine was burnt at 26F with heavy frost. It had been planted for 3 years and the leaves reached up nearly 6ft. It was well established, growing on sandy soil but with a high water table. It had a full crown of fronds and a very robust trunk. It did recover and grew to about 12ft tall. About 10 years ago the owners of the house removed it and a 20ft Acrocomia aculeata I had also planted.

Eric, unless the two palms were planted in the same exact spot, there is no way to scientifically explain your observations--too many uncontrolled factors. You can have the SAME species planted fairly close to one another and see different growth patterns and reactions to their environment--anyone ever see a row of Bizzies? They never all grow at the same pace!

[Eric in Orlando]

I wasn't making a scientific explanation, just reporting my observation that my healthy juvenile L. rigida growing in the open was burnt by 26F/ heavy frost. I didn't have a L. mariae either to compare it to.