Red colored bismarckia

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Gentlemen, calling each other names is pathetic, no real scientist does this when discussion science. Read my post, and if you can come up with an explanation for the color, bring it on, I'd love to hear it!

Tom, let's be real; scientists, doctors and all humans bicker--Heck yeah they do! Have you ever seen the top doctors, that work for the NFL, defame anyone who has anything to say about the science of concussions?

Tom, I like how you look to science in order to prove or disprove your point, but I think in this case, you are trying to obfuscate the situation. You are not taking into account that there are different colored Bismarckia whether there is cold or not--maybe you should break down a punnett square for us? lol

Andrew is that the best you can do? I am a spectroscopist, I do this for a living so I break it down to the possibilities. I know where the color comes from, I'm not sure you do. The anecdotal evidence you contributed is not going to be accepted scientifically, and I don't expect any real discussion of the facts here with those. Plant botany isn't nuclear physics, and this part of it isn't all that hard to understand. There are only so many possibilities for the red color. In the petioles its not so bad, in leaves it prevents photosynthesis. Red bizzies are for some reason exhibiting a low level of chlorophyll. If you think this is good, we obviously cant discuss this. As seedlings many plants struggle for various reasons, but as the plant becomes larger this chlorophyll deficiency cannot be consistent with good health any more than anemia is good for humans.

Wait, I am missing something here. There are a lot of red leaved plants that photosynthesize just fine. And based on how well this red one grows for me, it's definitely not hindered by the red color. And all those seedlings in Southern California that go from red to gradually larger silver palms, that wouldn't be happening if the red meant they are struggling.

I don't buy the wax theory either. Remove the wax on a healthy bizzie, and you will find the same base light bluegreen color that brahea armata has. I watched my largest most silver bismarckia this Winter. It's in the frostiest part of my garden, which is also the hottest and sunniest during the Summer because it's very wind protected down there. This palm was exposed to 5 nights of upper 20's. The newest leaf which had opened about 2 weeks before the freeze is showing hints of red beneath the wax, but only on the sun exposed sides. The petioles also went from blue to red. But it's not hindering the palm at all. To me, it looks like some sort of cold adaptation.

My observation is that they do turn red from exposure to chill, and they do this to a different degree depending on the specimen. But I don't see this as a sign of them being unhealthy or unable to properly photosynthesize. If anything, the red would increase the level of heat the leaves could absorb from solar radiation.

[Cikas]

Cikas, so your saying that Miami is to cold for bizzies and they are stressed? I find this very hard to believe. Miami is practically tropical. Further more if these "stressed" red bizzies were so unhealthy then why do they grow so fast? Lastly I can tell you that my "stressed" bizzies are red year around, they don't turn silver spring - fall when my temps are in the 80-100s. Your unhealthy bizzy theory doesn't seem to hold water

Maybe all of the red latania are stressed too

Bismarckia is very hardy palm.

In natural environment it is exposed to very harsh conditions. Exposed to conditions from extreme drought to high humidity. Also fires are common in that area.

But cold is not something that Bismarckia sees in natural habitat.

Only reason why Bismarckia can survive in our zones 9 and 10 is because it has strong capacity for regeneration ( adaptation to fires ). Because in their natural habitat climate is hot, truly hot. It is truly a tropical climate.

Temperatures never goes below 9-10 degrees Celsius. Even USDA zone 10 is cold for Bismarckia.

Bismarckia will survive in zone 9 and 10. But it will not be happy in winter. And she will show that with redish or purple color.

When Bismarckia is sick, it will be red. It is always red when sick. If you damaged roots of bismarckia, leaves will in the next few days become red. That is the fact.

Every time when something is wrong with temperature, soil, exposure to sunlight, roots, bismarckia will change color to red.

This is basically all I have left to add to this: I maintain that no Bismarckia goes from red, to silver, and back to red again--once the transformation to silver is complete(if the particular palm will turn silver) the palm cannot revert back to a red or purple or any other shade. This would lend to my point holding water, right Tom? I also concur that if you can show us that a Bizzy has turned back to a red, from once being fully silver, then I am wrong.

Has anyone ever seen a large red one?.. I bet not, since I maintain this to be a seedling trait for only the most silver cultivars.

Actualy even on this forum people showed their bismarckia palms that turned red from silver.

And I saw that too in real life.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Cikas

[Stevetoad]

Cikas, why are they red in Miami when young? Is 80f winters to cold?

[Cikas]

Cikas, why are they red in Miami when young? Is 80f winters to cold?

Miami is zone 10 ( 10b ). Subtropical climate, not tropical.

Temperatures goes way below 80f in winter.

But I do not belive that all Bismarckia palms in Mimi are red.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Cikas

[sonoranfans]

Spectroscopist--is that the guy who feeds the little camera into the back end of patients? Hey, I am glad you have such an awesome title! I totally understand that my argument is not backed by science, but that does not mean I yield to your observations. I really don't have anything to add scientifically, but I am still fairly certain I am right. It would be nice if one of us could be proven correct, but I don't see how... is this where we just respectfully think the other is wrong?

No, spectroscopy is a discipline regarding the study of the interaction of light and matter.... And it is not a title, that would be Senior Sensor Engineer... People who argue when they have nothing to add have some kind of problem. It takes a person with class and humility to back down from a conversation that is over their heads. I find myself in this position quite often when talking to professionals in other areas, trust me it doesn't hurt unless your can't manage your ego.

[Stevetoad]

Also I have a thread somewhere on here of my larger bizzy that was not opening spears and stopped growing. It turned from silver to green then to yellow. It's now turning silver again

[sonoranfans]

Cikas, why are they red in Miami when young? Is 80f winters to cold?

so steve, is zone 10b defined by 80 degree lows.... I didn't know this.... Dang, according to the weather station it was 46 there a few nights ago and in 2010 it was 35.6F in Miami according to weather underground....

[trioderob]

if they are happy they don't stay red.

i took one from 2 foot to 18 in 4 years - it was red for the first 3 weeks and never went back to red again

[Stevetoad]

Cikas, why are they red in Miami when young? Is 80f winters to cold?

so steve, is zone 10b defined by 80 degree lows.... I didn't know this.... Dang, according to the weather station it was 46 there a few nights ago and in 2010 it was 35.6F in Miami according to weather underground....

I didn't say 80f lows. My point was that Miami is hardy cold enough to stress a bizzy. Also if red was a sign of a stressed palm then why are latanias red when young too? They are a very close cousin to bizzy. Are they all stressed too?

[Cikas]

Cikas, why are they red in Miami when young? Is 80f winters to cold?

so steve, is zone 10b defined by 80 degree lows.... I didn't know this.... Dang, according to the weather station it was 46 there a few nights ago and in 2010 it was 35.6F in Miami according to weather underground....

I didn't say 80f lows. My point was that Miami is hardy cold enough to stress a bizzy. Also if red was a sign of a stressed palm then why are latanias red when young too? They are a very close cousin to bizzy. Are they all stressed too?

Lows are killers. And the most important factor in USDA zones. I'am speaking about lows.

Latanias are different. Their red color is normal. And happy juvenile latanias will be red.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Gentlemen, I posted this thread because I was wondering about the red coloring on this specimen of bismarckia. Based on all the replies and some additional observations of my own, here's what I am taking away from this discussion:

A stressed silver bismarckia doesn't turn red, it turns greenish and then yellow. Ask anyone who's lost a bismarckia to a gopher or to palm weevils. So there goes that whole theory. None ever turn red.

My observations based on the 6 specimens I grow and what I've seen elsewhere and what various folks have posted is that a bismarckia exposed to chill (temps below 7C) can revert to red, and the degree at which they do depends on both the genetics of the specimen at hand and the intensity of chill it's exposed to. The bigger the plant, the more chill and cold it will take to turn it red or purple. I know this because I have a large specimen that did show hints of red from 26F last Winter in the colder part of my garden, even though it was 100% silver blue before the freeze.

However, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that the purple or red is a sign of stress, or that it means the palm is sick, because no red or purple bismarckia has ever had any problems recovering from turning red or purple, in fact they happily go on growing even if red. My guess is that it could very well be a cold adaptation but I don't think anyone on this thread really knows why this is happening. It would be interesting if someone actually worked through the microbiology of this process.

Generally, once red or purple, the palm will revert back to blue and silver once it's exposed to sufficient heat, this much I have seen from my own specimen that's totally red.

The whole reason I posted this thread is that my climate is Csb, it's on the coolish side in the Summer, and there is a distinct possibility that some of my specimens won't shed their red in the Summer. In fact, some local horticulturists tell me that this is the primary reason bismarckia don't interest them in our climate. They don't like the red discoloration on this palm. I have a hunch I might need to get used to it.

At this point, I think I've pretty much had my questions answered in this thread, feel free to continue to excogitate this topic, but I feel a burnout coming, and I am not really interested in arguing with Mr. Cikas, who apparently thinks he's the all encompassing authority on all things palms. I know very little about growing bismarckia and I am eager to learn, but this kind of arguing is no fun.

Edit: the large specimen above that was totally blue before the freeze and has some red now came from Palm Valley Ranch in Fallbrook. When I looked at all their 30" boxed bismarckia, they all had some red coloration because of the 2013 Jan freeze. The owner said they were exposed to 24F. The specimen I picked was the only one without any red discoloration, it was the only one they protected from the cold.

[Stevetoad]

Cikas, why are they red in Miami when young? Is 80f winters to cold?

so steve, is zone 10b defined by 80 degree lows.... I didn't know this.... Dang, according to the weather station it was 46 there a few nights ago and in 2010 it was 35.6F in Miami according to weather underground....

I didn't say 80f lows. My point was that Miami is hardy cold enough to stress a bizzy. Also if red was a sign of a stressed palm then why are latanias red when young too? They are a very close cousin to bizzy. Are they all stressed too?

Lows are killers. And the most important factor in USDA zones. I'am speaking about lows.

Latanias are different. Their red color is normal. And happy juvenile latanias will be red.

I'd say that a happy young bizzy can be red too. I have a dark purple bizzy that grows and grows. I've had it for over 2 years and it never turns silver even when my lows are not going below 60. Likewise one of my older bizzys looked exactly the same until a bit over a year ago and is now silver. Last winter I hit 26f and guess what .... It stayed silver. Clearly you are set in your theory that is full of holes. Red latania is healthy but it's cousin is sickly when red but still grows quick and always turns silver and never reverts back. I have never seen a larger red bizzy. And yes I have seen sickly looking ones and they are always yellowish green. Never red.

[Cikas]

Cikas, why are they red in Miami when young? Is 80f winters to cold?

so steve, is zone 10b defined by 80 degree lows.... I didn't know this.... Dang, according to the weather station it was 46 there a few nights ago and in 2010 it was 35.6F in Miami according to weather underground....

I didn't say 80f lows. My point was that Miami is hardy cold enough to stress a bizzy. Also if red was a sign of a stressed palm then why are latanias red when young too? They are a very close cousin to bizzy. Are they all stressed too?

Lows are killers. And the most important factor in USDA zones. I'am speaking about lows.

Latanias are different. Their red color is normal. And happy juvenile latanias will be red.

I'd say that a happy young bizzy can be red too. I have a dark purple bizzy that grows and grows. I've had it for over 2 years and it never turns silver even when my lows are not going below 60. Likewise one of my older bizzys looked exactly the same until a bit over a year ago and is now silver. Last winter I hit 26f and guess what .... It stayed silver. Clearly you are set in your theory that is full of holes. Red latania is healthy but it's cousin is sickly when red but still grows quick and always turns silver and never reverts back. I have never seen a larger red bizzy. And yes I have seen sickly looking ones and they are always yellowish green. Never red.

Latanias are different specie ( same as silver Latania would not be normal ). Comparing Latanias to Bismarckias is like comparing Syagrus romanzoffiana to Cocos nucifera. They are also close relative, but very different palms.

If your young bizzy is red, that means that she is not happy, it is too cold for her comfort zone. She will survive, but that does not mean that she is happy.

Same as, if you're go on winter outside without a shirt, you'll survive, but you will not be happy.

Also I do not speak about mature palms, I speak about juvenile palms, like the one on the photo. And like I said before in previous post, not all bismarckia will show red in same condition, because there is always variation among specimens in resistance ( like with every other palms specie, some specimens are more hardy or sensitive than others, and younger palms are more sensitive and less hardy than older ones ).

[Stevetoad]

Your missing the point. Latania starts out red and then turns silver. If what you say is true and by being red they are not producing enough chlorophyll then how is it that they survive? Syagrus and cocos are cousins and share many of the same traits as all other cocoides. So I don't get your point.

[Sabal Steve]

if they are happy they don't stay red.

i took one from 2 foot to 18 in 4 years - it was red for the first 3 weeks and never went back to red again

Wow...

How is that possible - do tell!!!

I've heard that these can really rocket, but I didn't know that they could grow like that. My larger one has went from 2' to 6' in 3 years. It isn't full sun yet though, not for another few years.

[Alicehunter2000]

Here is one of mine.....it was this color during the summer when it was hot and it looks like this now with our cold temps. It survived our 20 degree temps with nothing but a plastic pot over the top. These are way more hardy in the ground than in the pot.

[Sabal Steve]

The word is excogitate--you are welcome. I have grown Bismarckia from seed and the red has NOTHING to do with the cold. I hope Tom reads this, as he seems to show an interest in the pursuit of truth.

I'm glad that we could all get together and confabulate! I never expected that this would turn into such a palaverous discussion. I feel that we are on the way to elucidation! (Lol!)

[Sabal Steve]

In all seriousness, I do find this topic quite interesting, and will track my bizzie's progress throughout the seasons and years as a case study.

[Cikas]

Your missing the point. Latania starts out red and then turns silver. If what you say is true and by being red they are not producing enough chlorophyll then how is it that they survive? Syagrus and cocos are cousins and share many of the same traits as all other cocoides. So I don't get your point.

For Latanias it is normal to have red color. All of them are always red. It is genetic.

In other hand Bismarckia are silver when young in natural habitat.

It is not normal for them to be red, when they are happy with conditions in which they are growing.

[sonoranfans]

Gentlemen, I posted this thread because I was wondering about the red coloring on this specimen of bismarckia. Based on all the replies and some additional observations of my own, here's what I am taking away from this discussion:

A stressed silver bismarckia doesn't turn red, it turns greenish and then yellow. Ask anyone who's lost a bismarckia to a gopher or to palm weevils. So there goes that whole theory. None ever turn red.

My observations based on the 6 specimens I grow and what I've seen elsewhere and what various folks have posted is that a bismarckia exposed to chill (temps below 7C) can revert to red, and the degree at which they do depends on both the genetics of the specimen at hand and the intensity of chill it's exposed to. The bigger the plant, the more chill and cold it will take to turn it red or purple. I know this because I have a large specimen that did show hints of red from 26F last Winter in the colder part of my garden, even though it was 100% silver blue before the freeze.

However, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that the purple or red is a sign of stress, or that it means the palm is sick, because no red or purple bismarckia has ever had any problems recovering from turning red or purple, in fact they happily go on growing even if red. My guess is that it could very well be a cold adaptation but I don't think anyone on this thread really knows why this is happening. It would be interesting if someone actually worked through the microbiology of this process.

Generally, once red or purple, the palm will revert back to blue and silver once it's exposed to sufficient heat, this much I have seen from my own specimen that's totally red.

The whole reason I posted this thread is that my climate is Csb, it's on the coolish side in the Summer, and there is a distinct possibility that some of my specimens won't shed their red in the Summer. In fact, some local horticulturists tell me that this is the primary reason bismarckia don't interest them in our climate. They don't like the red discoloration on this palm. I have a hunch I might need to get used to it.

At this point, I think I've pretty much had my questions answered in this thread, feel free to continue to excogitate this topic, but I feel a burnout coming, and I am not really interested in arguing with Mr. Cikas, who apparently thinks he's the all encompassing authority on all things palms. I know very little about growing bismarckia and I am eager to learn, but this kind of arguing is no fun.

Edit: the large specimen above that was totally blue before the freeze and has some red now came from Palm Valley Ranch in Fallbrook. When I looked at all their 30" boxed bismarckia, they all had some red coloration because of the 2013 Jan freeze. The owner said they were exposed to 24F. The specimen I picked was the only one without any red discoloration, it was the only one they protected from the cold.

We can agree to disagree, but your bizzy looks sickly to me, thin leaflets and petioles, it may survive, but its sickly looking. I have never seen a red bizzy that doesn't look less than robust. If I used your anecdotal logic I would just say that proves all your points wrong, but that would be junk science. There is an old saying that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. And the comments about red latinias are laughable, totally different species that has different requirements. Red means less chlorophyll and red latinias obviously exist in robust form with less chlorophyll or a greater carotenoid/chlorophyll ratio(this would also cause red). When it comes to explaining color its all about chromophores and that is the way it is in plants, in human skin, and in manufactured products. Still the "church of the red bizzy" has faith that it is due to some other unknown cause...

[sonoranfans]

I will also add that less chlorophyll doesn't necessarily mean cold stress, it could be another kind of stress that causes it. My bizzie that had the red petioles was a big box store plant concentration camp survivor. It was being watered every day and perhaps that contributed as these don't like being continually wet. It could be the south florida ones get too wet as well, it rains all the time down there. I felt sorry for the little red petile bizzy and saved it. When I went to mike evans place in 2010, I saw plenty of white strap leaf seedlings that were stunningly white, easily the prettiest I ever saw in florida or california. And the parent tree was one of the whitest bizzies I have ever seen. they were all near paper white, no red anywhere on any of those seedlings, about 50 of em. I now wish I had picked up some of those palms.... but I had 2 already in the ground and these things get huge...

[Xhoniwaters1]

ok I don't know where all of you are at in this discussion, but i will slap my 2 cents on the table. I am sure some of you have grown bismarckia from seed. I have and can tell you that from the batch I grew.. some came up blue and some came up reddish/purple and stayed that way throughout their growth as younger plants. The blue stayed blue from the beginning and the red stayed red from the beginning. Not really agreeing to the idea that they are some how sick and unhappy.

[trioderob]

if they are happy they don't stay red.

i took one from 2 foot to 18 in 4 years - it was red for the first 3 weeks and never went back to red again

Wow...

How is that possible - do tell!!!

I've heard that these can really rocket, but I didn't know that they could grow like that. My larger one has went from 2' to 6' in 3 years. It isn't full sun yet though, not for another few years.

there is only 1 way

hot blazing sun from sunrise to sunset with no shade at all - and alot of water

why is everyone using $5 words ???

Edited January 24, 2014 by trioderob

[Stevetoad]

So when I got home I took a pic of one of mine that is red. I also took a pic of one of my father in laws who lives 3 doors up from me. His is solid blue and mine is red. They both are in the same exact climate the exact same soil. So why is mine red and his is blue? Note in the pic I made sure you could see my jacaranda in the background so you would know I wasn't faking this. So clearly it is not from the temps that makes them go red. I have a perfectly silver one in my back yard too. I'd say its a natural variation. Just like red and green h. Indica or how some c.macrocarpa will throw red leaves and some throw green. One thing I can say for sure is that it's not from the cold.

[Xhoniwaters1]

Genetic variation just like other palms of the same species

[sonoranfans]

So when I got home I took a pic of one of mine that is red. I also took a pic of one of my father in laws who lives 3 doors up from me. His is solid blue and mine is red. They both are in the same exact climate the exact same soil. So why is mine red and his is blue? Note in the pic I made sure you could see my jacaranda in the background so you would know I wasn't faking this. So clearly it is not from the temps that makes them go red. I have a perfectly silver one in my back yard too. I'd say its a natural variation. Just like red and green h. Indica or how some c.macrocarpa will throw red leaves and some throw green. One thing I can say for sure is that it's not from the cold.

image.jpg

image.jpg

the red one looks scrawny, my two bizzies never looked that unhealthy. The green one looks much better and its obviously capable of a much higher rate of photosynthesis. this is undeniable its fundamental to plant growth. Now its true that bizzies don't need every bit of sun and that is why they are silver when healthy. they can take lots of heat because of this, they are one of the most resilient palms in the heat. But when they turn green they are able to recover from an unhealthy state much faster. Photosynthesis cannot happen unless chlorophyll absorbs light and when it does a green color is transmitted from the plant tissue. perhaps its drainage or some other environmental problem. Or perhaps its poor genetics. It will be interesting to see how they look in the future and which one grows faster over the next 2-3 years. Observations are interesting, but understanding fundamental causes/function is much better...

[Stevetoad]

The red ones don't photograph as well as the blue. As far as growth goes my red one has passed up my father laws but I will add that mine gets a bit more attention than his. I still have never seen a bizzy go from red to blue then back to red. I still stand by my observations. The cold has zero to do with it. These are not stressed palms. I have a stressed bizzy and trust me it is far from red. It's a greenish yellow. Zero red.

[MOlivera]

A palm trees current native climate is only a small part of the puzzle. The green petiole Livistona saribus in my yard in Northeast Florida has survived 18F with only minor damage. This plant comes from tropical Thailand.

[Stevetoad]

Here's a pic from a year ago of a bizzy I transplanted. It was red as a little guy. Clearly it was stressed in this photo. It never went back to red. Now it's bright silver.

Same palm tonight. Sorry for the bad pic but it's dark out. You can still see the deformed leaves at the bottom

[Stevetoad]

Here's a good link for red leaves and photosynthesis. It's also google hit number one when you search red leaves photosynthesis.

http://baynature.org/articles/photosynthesis-in-leaves-that-arent-green/ "At high light levels there is no difference in red and green leaves". Only at low light levels is green better than red.

[Sabal Steve]

So when I got home I took a pic of one of mine that is red. I also took a pic of one of my father in laws who lives 3 doors up from me. His is solid blue and mine is red. They both are in the same exact climate the exact same soil. So why is mine red and his is blue? Note in the pic I made sure you could see my jacaranda in the background so you would know I wasn't faking this. So clearly it is not from the temps that makes them go red. I have a perfectly silver one in my back yard too. I'd say its a natural variation. Just like red and green h. Indica or how some c.macrocarpa will throw red leaves and some throw green. One thing I can say for sure is that it's not from the cold.

image.jpg

image.jpg

the red one looks scrawny, my two bizzies never looked that unhealthy. The green one looks much better and its obviously capable of a much higher rate of photosynthesis. this is undeniable its fundamental to plant growth. Now its true that bizzies don't need every bit of sun and that is why they are silver when healthy. they can take lots of heat because of this, they are one of the most resilient palms in the heat. But when they turn green they are able to recover from an unhealthy state much faster. Photosynthesis cannot happen unless chlorophyll absorbs light and when it does a green color is transmitted from the plant tissue. perhaps its drainage or some other environmental problem. Or perhaps its poor genetics. It will be interesting to see how they look in the future and which one grows faster over the next 2-3 years. Observations are interesting, but understanding fundamental causes/function is much better...

Just a quick note - I have to agree with Steve that the red ones must not photograph well. The one that I have shown above looks great in person, and VERY similar to Steve's. It holds lots of leaves, and there is very little damage to the vast majority of the crown. Although, I do remember in the summer that the leaves were bright white, so I have to agree that environmental factors are at work in some capacity. Whether or not the plant is actually stressed, or unhealthy - I don't know. I think that this discussion has raised a number of plausible theories.

[Sabal Steve]

I have an orange-red leafed bizzie. Not purple, but red.

In order to get a sense of the spectrum of genes in bismarckia and find some clones that might like our Tasmanian-style mild but coolish climate that features Summer lows as chilly as 42F, I planted a half dozen of them from distinct sources and age groups. If they all get huge I've got a big problem, but the idea is that nature would do some selection (with some of my help - ugly ones would get the ax.)

When I shopped around last Spring, I came across one 15 gallon specimen that had orange-red leaves, not purple ones. For kicks, I went ahead and bought it because I was curious. During the Summer, it put out nice blue-teal, almost copper-blue colored leaves, but the old leaves kept some of the red. Now that we've had some chill accumulations (temps below 45F) at night, those new leaves are also turning orangish-red. With the rate of chill accumulation we get around these parts, this thing will be cherry red by March.

In contrast, all the other ones I grow are totally silver-blue and showing no signs of stress. The largest specimen I have that happens to be the most powder white-bue color has continued to grow through the cold nights and has even opened a new leaf about a week ago. The new leaf is actually light green at this point and probably won't get more waxy silver until it gets hot again. It's not showing any signs or red, but it only looks good between 11AM and 2PM. Before and after that, it seems the sunlight spectrum just isn't right to really show off the silver and it looks almost gray-green.

I am puzzled by the orange-red color on the one funky bizze, it definitely looks like stress, but so far, people walking through the garden look at it and usually react with a "oooh" and an "ahhhh". I am not going to complain, it looks cool.

Here's the red one last February - it's not quite as red anymore, but the red is coming back now.

Silver-blue one:

Axel,

One thing that is interesting about your photo of the reddish/purplish Bizzie is that the newest set of fronds appear to be more red/purple, but the some of the previous ones have more of a greenish/silverish/bluish look?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Cikas, so your saying that Miami is to cold for bizzies and they are stressed? I find this very hard to believe. Miami is practically tropical. Further more if these "stressed" red bizzies were so unhealthy then why do they grow so fast? Lastly I can tell you that my "stressed" bizzies are red year around, they don't turn silver spring - fall when my temps are in the 80-100s. Your unhealthy bizzy theory doesn't seem to hold water

Maybe all of the red latania are stressed too

Bismarckia is very hardy palm.

In natural environment it is exposed to very harsh conditions. Exposed to conditions from extreme drought to high humidity. Also fires are common in that area.

But cold is not something that Bismarckia sees in natural habitat.

Only reason why Bismarckia can survive in our zones 9 and 10 is because it has strong capacity for regeneration ( adaptation to fires ). Because in their natural habitat climate is hot, truly hot. It is truly a tropical climate.

Temperatures never goes below 9-10 degrees Celsius. Even USDA zone 10 is cold for Bismarckia.

Bismarckia will survive in zone 9 and 10. But it will not be happy in winter. And she will show that with redish or purple color.

When Bismarckia is sick, it will be red. It is always red when sick. If you damaged roots of bismarckia, leaves will in the next few days become red. That is the fact.

Every time when something is wrong with temperature, soil, exposure to sunlight, roots, bismarckia will change color to red.

And you can test that on healthy silver Bismarckia.

Nothing could be further ftom the truth. You obviously don't grow bismarckia or else you would know that root damage doesn't cause a bismarckia to take on red color. I've seen my share of root trashed bismarckia, not a single one has EVER developed red color. Red from cold exposure yes but never red from root damage.

[Mike Evans]

Boy, what a heated discussion. Almost afraid to jump in. I can add what I see from observations and experience from growing 100's of these from seed to 25 gal. I have to agree with some of Andrews comments, about color that is. I have seen lots of immature healthy ones have a reddish color in the heat of the Summer months, 90F+. These typically turn out to be very silvery waxy color. I have also heard this a long time ago from large growers in S. FL. I know this is true from the ones I selected for my garden. I have never seen any of them turn from reddish to silver back to reddish from stress. I have stressed a large number of them early on, before I realized how susceptible they were to transplant shock. I had a large number go into shock and some die from bumping them up from 15 gal to 25 gal. Some even go into shock from rotating root bound containers that are rooted in ground, 180 degrees. They do not like their roots broken. I have never seen any of them turn reddish from this stress. They just turn to a brown leaf. There may be some truth to them turning redder in the cooler months, just like Red Latanias ( Latina lontaroides). Red Latanias turn redder every year during the cooler temps. Bismarks are not as pronounced of color change in cooled months, if at all. Red color from stress, I do not agree. I am not arguing, just observations. If I was selecting some 3 gal - 7 gal Bismarks, I would grab the red ones, like the ones in my garden.

[Alicehunter2000]

Everything you said was what I had heard also, but didn't have the vast expertise of growing 100's like you have. Maybe this settles the disagreement. Glad I chose the red/purple ones to keep if they end up looking like yours. Thanks.

[Mandrew968]

Cikas, why are they red in Miami when young? Is 80f winters to cold?

so steve, is zone 10b defined by 80 degree lows.... I didn't know this.... Dang, according to the weather station it was 46 there a few nights ago and in 2010 it was 35.6F in Miami according to weather underground....

Tom, Steve is a good guy--you should show him more respect especially when you were unprovoked. The sarcasm comes off as you knowing more than Steve and he is an idiot--that's not correct or polite.

[Mandrew968]

if they are happy they don't stay red.

i took one from 2 foot to 18 in 4 years - it was red for the first 3 weeks and never went back to red again

I don't think mine has even that remarkable speed of growth--good for you Triode! Actually, I know it doesn't...

[Mandrew968]

The word is excogitate--you are welcome. I have grown Bismarckia from seed and the red has NOTHING to do with the cold. I hope Tom reads this, as he seems to show an interest in the pursuit of truth.

I'm glad that we could all get together and confabulate! I never expected that this would turn into such a palaverous discussion. I feel that we are on the way to elucidation! (Lol!)

Have you been playing with Matty's favorite Dinosaur?..

[sonoranfans]

Here's a good link for red leaves and photosynthesis. It's also google hit number one when you search red leaves photosynthesis.

http://baynature.org/articles/photosynthesis-in-leaves-that-arent-green/ "At high light levels there is no difference in red and green leaves". Only at low light levels is green better than red.

Yep in the brightest sun, a white bismarckia reflects MOST of the light it sees and does fine. this is probably why mine in AZ(greatest PAR sunlight intensity in the USA) turned very white in summer, less so in winter. But those dimmer days where clouds exist, like the june gloom(last year seemed to last 3 months) that lasts for months in summer socal, there is less photosynthesis. I will comment that the author seems to apply his vague dimmest/brightest assessment to all plants as if they are equal. How about a PAR(photosyntheically active radiation) level? Clearly some plants don't need hardly any sun, like impatients, so this cannot be accurate. But the article has little in the way of detail anyway. An article from a refereed journal would be more useful.

here is a map of PAR(attached). Inland California and AZ pretty high, coastal low, east coast quite a bit lower. All sunny days are not equal of course as can be seen by the map. Also here is an article where they actually study photosynthesis activity in detail and it is a reviewed article(a much more accurate article that has been vetted)

http://www.yadvindermalhi.org/uploads/1/8/7/6/18767612/restrepo-coupe_et_al_2013_afm.pdf

abstract:

"We investigated the seasonal patterns of Amazonian forest photosynthetic activity, and the effects

thereon of variations in climate and land-use, by integrating data from a network of ground-based eddy

flux towers in Brazil established as part of the ‘Large-Scale Biosphere Atmosphere Experiment in Amazonia’

project. We found that degree of water limitation, as indicated by the seasonality of the ratio

of sensible to latent heat flux (Bowen ratio) predicts seasonal patterns of photosynthesis. In equatorial

Amazonian forests (5◦ N–5◦ S), water limitation is absent, and photosynthetic fluxes (or gross ecosystem

productivity, GEP) exhibit high or increasing levels of photosynthetic activity as the dry season

progresses, likely a consequence of allocation to growth of new leaves. In contrast, forests along the

southern flank of the Amazon, pastures converted from forest, and mixed forest-grass savanna, exhibit

dry-season declines in GEP, consistent with increasing degrees of water limitation. Although previous

work showed tropical ecosystem evapotranspiration (ET) is driven by incoming radiation, GEP observations

reported here surprisingly show no or negative relationships with photosynthetically active

radiation (PAR). Instead, GEP fluxes largely followed the phenology of canopy photosynthetic capacity (Pc),

with only deviations from this primary pattern driven by variations in PAR. Estimates of leaf flush at three non-water limited equatorial forest sites peak in the dry season, in correlation with high dry season light

levels. The higher photosynthetic capacity that follows persists into the wet season, driving high GEP that

is out of phase with sunlight, explaining the negative observed relationship with sunlight. Overall, these

patterns suggest that at sites where water is not limiting, light interacts with adaptive mechanisms to

determine photosynthetic capacity indirectly through leaf flush and litterfall seasonality. These mechanisms

are poorly represented in ecosystem models, and represent an important challenge to efforts to

predict tropical forest responses to climatic variations."

One finding is that photosynthetic activity is muted with limited water access during the dry season, but not if there is plenty of water(central Amazonian rainforest). this is real scientific evidence that plants suppress photosynthesis based on environmental factors, regardless of sunlight. And this makes sense as if the plant were to flush new leaves in a time of drought it would increase evapotranspiration and desiccate the plant. It could be that red leaves prevent excessive evaporative losses. this would be relevant in dry areas or for potted plants with small root systems in high drainage soil that are under watered.

[Mandrew968]

Boy, what a heated discussion. Almost afraid to jump in. I can add what I see from observations and experience from growing 100's of these from seed to 25 gal. I have to agree with some of Andrews comments, about color that is. I have seen lots of immature healthy ones have a reddish color in the heat of the Summer months, 90F+. These typically turn out to be very silvery waxy color. I have also heard this a long time ago from large growers in S. FL. I know this is true from the ones I selected for my garden. I have never seen any of them turn from reddish to silver back to reddish from stress. I have stressed a large number of them early on, before I realized how susceptible they were to transplant shock. I had a large number go into shock and some die from bumping them up from 15 gal to 25 gal. Some even go into shock from rotating root bound containers that are rooted in ground, 180 degrees. They do not like their roots broken. I have never seen any of them turn reddish from this stress. They just turn to a brown leaf. There may be some truth to them turning redder in the cooler months, just like Red Latanias ( Latina lontaroides). Red Latanias turn redder every year during the cooler temps. Bismarks are not as pronounced of color change in cooled months, if at all. Red color from stress, I do not agree. I am not arguing, just observations. If I was selecting some 3 gal - 7 gal Bismarks, I would grab the red ones, like the ones in my garden.

Mike--I usually am not a fan of multiple Bismarckia plantings because one usually outdoes the others and makes me wish the others were not there to take away from the best looking one, but yours look spectacular! They are so whitish silver, they are burning the chromophores out of my eyeballs! Very well grown and I give you that credit, not nature.