Speeding up Seed Germination

[Kennybenjamin]

How did I miss this thread before?? I will study this closely, thank you very much!

[Kai]

Really cool topic!

This way you will get speedlings!

[blake_tx]

Thanks for sharing this info. Just did this to some butia x jubaea seeds that have done nothing in 6 months. Hopefully this will help!

[CYPALMS]

Speedlings!!! That's a good one

blake: if it is possible,we would like to see some pictures of the seeds as well as a close up of the germination pore, or the spot you have removed to speed up germination. Itcould be usefull for the future

[Trópico]

When I tried this back in 2006 with Roystonea borinquena seeds, germination happened within hours. I went from a plain viable seed to a button of about 3 mm of length. As for Attalea, the embryo is buried deep within one of the eyes, so I used a needle which required extreme carefulness.

[Hamal]

I have been following the topics about delidding for a while and have quite successfully delidded a few seeds such as Brahea armata and Trachycarpus princeps myself. However, I have had no luck with any Butia. Lots of times, the embryo was spit out entirely or to an extent that it fell off a few days later. In other cases, the embryo looked pretty much dead to begin with.

Does anybody have any experience with delidding Butia seeds to share? Maybe photos of what a healthy delidded Butia seeds looks like?

[CYPALMS]

10. Beccariophoenix fenestralis

After receiving some seeds from Kostas (thank you very much for the offer!) i thought to try the process, despite the fact that the seeds were fresh. I let them on their own for a week or so and nothing had happened. So i decided to "delid" 5 of them and keep the other 5 for reference, with ideal conditions (heat humidity etc). After removing the hard outer shell which is attached to the mesocarp, the germination pore is easily identifiable through a distinct pattern of lines pointing towards it. Using a scalpel, this one needs some caution, as the "lid" is a very thin membrane sitting on top of the embryo. Worked my way down until the embryo was exposed and the results are shown below

From the left, 1st seed is untreated, 2nd with the outer shell removed, third one is 1 week old after "delidding", 4th and 5th are 3 days old after deliddling and the last one was treated just today. The rest of the untreated seeds are yet to show any signs of germination. If they germinate on their own, i will post the dates here so to have the comparison available.

[CYPALMS]

After spending time to read about palm seed germination and after losing few seeds from mold due to long time of inactivity, and after reading John's posts "tickling the embryo" and "old seed germination", i decided to sacrifice 1 seed of each species i am trying to germinate, to locate the embryo and try the "de-lidding" process to see if it would work. After all, what's the difference of destroying a seed with a knife and losing it from fungus?

So let this be a guide to those who are trying to germinate the following seeds with no success so far

1. Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

I received the seeds on May 10th 2013 (nearly 7 months). Although they were cleaned from fruit, the seeds slowly developed mold on the exterior surface, and when the germination process had initiated at some point, the embryo was already taken over by fungus. Last week i decided to try and delid one of the remaining seeds, quickly spotted the embryo just off the lateral pole of the seed after scratching it with a sharp knife and using a very sharp blade i slowly reached the "lid". This species indeed has a lid covering the embryo, which pops easily with the point of the blade. The photo shows 3 seeds in different stages, and the experience here shows that the embryo needs 3-4 days submerged in water to bulge out of the seed.

Hyophorbe_lagenicaulis.PNG

2. Kentiopsis oliviformis

Received the seeds on July 10th 2013 (5 months). Although none has rotten yet, they all just seed there doing nothing. Again, 1 seed was the tester. These seeds have a hard hairy outer covering which closes at the south pole of the seed and is easily removed. Since there is no obvious use for this, i guess it is recommended to remove it since it may prove a backdoor for fungus, keeping extra moisture around the seed. This species also has a small lid covering the embryo and it has also been removed using a fine pointing blade. The size of the seed makes it a bit harder to work with, but with little patience you will be fine. This one took 2 days for the embryo to emerge from the seed and so far no problems whatsoever.

Kentiopsis_oliviformis.PNG

3. Brahea armata

Received the seeds on May 10th 2013 (nearly 7 months). Notoriously known for longgggg germination times this one had to be tried. The embryo is located just below the small tip on the top of the seed, and on the upper side (the seed has a flat side distinguishing it from the upper side). Contrary to the previous 2, Brahea armata doesnt have a "lid". Used a sharp knife to scratch the hard outer shell and when this was removed i had to use a scalpel blade to remove very thin slices of the mesocarp to expose the embryo without damaging it. However, this one was the most rewarding, as it had the embryo swollen in only 12 hours. So, you can forget the 1.5 years waiting for germination on this species and proceed right upon receiving the seeds to expose the embryo and initiate germination.

Brahea_armata.JPG

4. Clinostigma exorrhizum

Received the seeds on July 10th (5 months). Tiny seeds, hard to work with, had to disinfect them 3 times to prevent them from rotting. 1 of them had managed to start the germination process but was attacked instantly by fungus and never made it. The brave seed showed where the embryo was located and that is the north pole of the seed. Due to small size of the seed, the scalpel blade was used to clean the hard exocarp, and shave the mesocarp to expose the embryo. No "lid" here also, so extra care should be taken when shaving off the top of the seed. When this was completed, it took 5 days for the germination to initiate, with the seed submerged to water.

Clinostigma_exorrhizum.JPG

Apart from those described above, few other species are in the process and will follow when there is a definite result. Those include Bismarckia nobilis silver, Licuala peltata var. sumawongii, Bentinckia condapanna and Kentiopsis pyriformis. Others may follow depending on what else will not germinate in a logical time frame

And again, cant thank enough john for showing the way and all other members who have posted germination information for so many species.

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis revisited

The 3 seeds in the picture succumbed to damping off later on, so when i got new seeds from Kostas again, only this time they were fresh, i tried the same process on half of them, and the results are encouraging so far.

From the left, the first four seeds are 8, 4 and 2 days after "delidding", fifth seed has the mesocarp exposed to test if the outer coating is impermeable to water (looks like it is), and the last seed is again untreated for reference. No signs of problems so far, and again will note the germination date of the untreated seeds to compare them later on.

[CYPALMS]

11. Licuala peltata var. peltata

Similar case with var suwamongii which was described before, all seeds were processed the same day i received them, without presoaking. Remember that these seeds have a hard outer shell which you can either break or cut off (look at second seed from the left in the first picture). When you peel this off, with a good light you can easily spot the germination pore (red arrows on seeds #3 and # 4) and all you have to do is scrape off the thin mesocarp. The embryo lies beneath (Seeds #4 & #5). 24 hours soaking and it starts swelling and all you have to do is place it in your medium to grow to seedling stage. Overall 48 hours needed to get these tough guys going

[CYPALMS]

Update of the most recent attempt of Licuala peltata var. peltata

They are now just 3 months old from the day they were received and germinated in only 48 hours. Rate is 11 seedlings out of 12 seeds.

12. Bentinckia nicobarica

Seeds were received on the 24th of October 2014. Since i had tried in the past with Bentinckia condapanna and i knew the seed structure, i thought to try a few and see how they do. Following are 2 pictures which show the germination pore, very easily spotted on the top of the seeds.

48 hours after the procedure, the test seeds had already germinated and so i decided to do the same with all the seeds. The main reason for this was that last year when i had tried with condapanna seeds after few months in perlite with no sign of germination, i had found out that they were generally quite touchy and they should be as fresh as possible. Out of the 100 nicobarica seeds i had ordered this time and after "delidding" them all, 44 had no embryo inside or the embryo was already mushy or brown. Those 44 seeds would be the source of fungus outburst to the whole batch of seeds, had they not been identified prior to germination attempt, which proves the method usefull for this species, unless ofcourse you have your own seeds to harvest.

The remaining 56 seeds where placed in perlite/vermiculite mix to continue with the germination process. 2 weeks later i decided to check on them and found out that 40 seeds were perfectly healthy, while the other 16 had been attacked by fungus and were removed.

My conclusion for this species is that the process can be applied with high success rates if you dont have your own fresh seeds, but if i was to repeat it, i would soak the dellided seeds to a fungicide before placing them for germination.

[Funkthulhu]

Next time some palm-talker is kind enough to mail me some seeds I will certainly give this a try!

Thanks for a great thread!

[foxtail]

Excellent.

[Kai]

Amazing topic! I have some old seeds I want to try this on. 

So when you have for example a Butia or Lytocaryum seed, how will you know which pore you have to flip off?

[Pal Meir]

3 minutes ago, Kai said:

Amazing topic! I have some old seeds I want to try this on. 

So when you have for example a Butia or Lytocaryum seed, how will you know which pore you have to flip off?

You have to remove the shell (endocarp). That’s all.

[Jdiaz31089]

Wow, this is amazing information. Very well documented. Thank you!

[Mostapha]

I know this is an old post but I had a few different seeds that I thought I would try this with. Bismarkias, royal, kentinopsis, and thought why not a few howeas, I have so many of the howeas, if I lose a few it won't effect anything. I cut one in half to see viability and they are still good, just taking their sweet time making any kind if move.

Will keep you posted on what happens within the next few weeks. If anyone is still reading this post.

Thanks Mark

[Palmsbro]

34 minutes ago, Mostapha said:

I know this is an old post but I had a few different seeds that I thought I would try this with. Bismarkias, royal, kentinopsis, and thought why not a few howeas, I have so many of the howeas, if I lose a few it won't effect anything. I cut one in half to see viability and they are still good, just taking their sweet time making any kind if move.

Will keep you posted on what happens within the next few weeks. If anyone is still reading this post.

Thanks Mark

Some seeds do take a lot of time to germinate without using whatever techniques on them, sometimes up to a few years...

I wish your seedlings-to-be to do very well.

"If anyone is still reading this post" --

Well, I am, so................

There's that lol.

[Mostapha]

Thank you, I'm glad to see that there is still interest in this post.

I've germinated all of these palms from batches of the same seeds, except the Howea fosteriana which I have 150 that I have been waiting on for a few months. With so many me, Im just thinking it can't hurt trying a couple. I know they take a while to get started, but they are still healthy as far as a float test and cutting one in half to check the embryo.

The rest I've had in coconut coir, so experimenting is more of a curiosity. I don't imagine myself doing it with a great number of seeds. The howeas seeds themselves are like a very hard wood. Thank You for responding

Mark

[Mostapha]

While checking other seeds yesterday, I remembered the Caryota rumphiana that I have set up and thought maybe I would give a couple if them a shot at this, even though once germinated they are pretty fast growers.

I have about 25-6 seeds, a few that look like they are about to push the cap off themselves ( pretty well raised up, could probably pop them off with a fingernail). Some of the others were still looking like a dimple in the seed. Well I did three of them. Put them in warm water, about 85f. With a bit of peroxide just for a few moments. Today it looks like perhaps I have a little movement. Picture below. Let me know your opinion.

Thanks Mark

[Grasswing]

4 minutes ago, Mostapha said:

While checking other seeds yesterday, I remembered the Caryota rumphiana that I have set up and thought maybe I would give a couple if them a shot at this, even though once germinated they are pretty fast growers.

I have about 25-6 seeds, a few that look like they are about to push the cap off themselves ( pretty well raised up, could probably pop them off with a fingernail). Some of the others were still looking like a dimple in the seed. Well I did three of them. Put them in warm water, about 85f. With a bit of peroxide just for a few moments. Today it looks like perhaps I have a little movement. Picture below. Let me know your opinion.

Thanks Mark

Great job Mark,

now lets hope they won't get attacked by fungus, unfortunately I lost two of my newest experiments due to mold. I will keep fingers crossed for you! 

Regards,
Ondrej

[Mostapha]

I know. Don't like fungus. That's why I use a peroxide solution. I'm keeping them in a container of warm water. I have a restaurant Bunn coffee maker in my kitchen, so there is always hot water in it. It's great putting small containers on top of it. I soaked red Latania seeds on it and the water in the container stayed consistently about 85-90f. I will give the Caryotas a week or so watching then plant in boiled coir, as suggested by an earlier comment here on this post.

[Palmsbro]

3 hours ago, Mostapha said:

While checking other seeds yesterday, I remembered the Caryota rumphiana that I have set up and thought maybe I would give a couple if them a shot at this, even though once germinated they are pretty fast growers.

I have about 25-6 seeds, a few that look like they are about to push the cap off themselves ( pretty well raised up, could probably pop them off with a fingernail). Some of the others were still looking like a dimple in the seed. Well I did three of them. Put them in warm water, about 85f. With a bit of peroxide just for a few moments. Today it looks like perhaps I have a little movement. Picture below. Let me know your opinion.

Thanks Mark

Looks good so far.

3 hours ago, Grasswing said:

Great job Mark,

now lets hope they won't get attacked by fungus, unfortunately I lost two of my newest experiments due to mold. I will keep fingers crossed for you! 

Regards,
Ondrej

Agreed.

[Mostapha]

24 hrs later on the Caryota rhumpiana, there is significant growth. Thinking about dusting with rootone before sowing to try to keep fungus away.

Also decided to try a Brahea seed,(just received from doonsdave, thank you again). Found a small spot that I think may be where the embryo is last night, will see in a few days.

[John in Andalucia]

An excellent topic, and great to see Palmtalkers still reaping the benefits of this germination technique for old seeds.

I had a result myself last night with 3 old Joey seeds, finding one of them to be still viable.

 

 

 

Ondřej (Grasswing) - your R. baueri seeds will be posted tomorrow. 

 

[Mostapha]

How nice, Joey seeds. This technique could actually save months of waiting. Now what to do with the spare time...lol...more seeds?

I hope you keep us posted on your Joey, I'd like to find seeds at some point.

Any opinion on using the dusting of rootone before sowing into coir? Open to any and all suggestions. Mark

 

[John in Andalucia]

Mark - I posted earlier when I got home, before checking on it's progress, and.. well, 'not good' is the answer. As often happens, the embryo was simply given the opportunity to eject itself - or in this case, it fell back inside the seed. The embryo was also turning off-white and semi-translucent in appearance, which usually signals a dying embryo. Your Caryota seeds may stand a chance. I hope they do. As for rooting hormone, I couldn't say if it has a positive effect or not. I prefer to think of 'de-lidding' as giving an older embryo an open doorway. Some make a dash for freedom, whilst others fall on the threshold. A chance is all they need, and personally, I prefer to let Mother Nature decide the rest. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

[Mostapha]

I'm sorry to hear that. Joey's are beautiful palms. At least you have it a chance it may have not gotten otherwise, and like you said " nothing ventured, nothing gained." That would just make me more determined.

I'm wondering if once the cap is removed and the embryo is showing it first fight for life, if again the idea of dusting with a hormone powder, then sowing in a sterile medium with bottom heat if required they may produce stronger tube root or soil roots faster. Food for thought, I guess. (Stratifying)

I know germinating my red latans in coconut coir with bottom heat, after waiting months for anything, then to have all 10 just suddenly pop and put out tube roots faster than I could get them potted. To think I was starting to wonder if they were just going to continue doing nothing, until I noticed something white through the top of the container, thinking at first it was probably fungus until I opened it and saw what it was. Then it was almost daily they popped.

So, I learned, never give up.

I may try it with one of the seeds. Will keep you posted

[Grasswing]

14 hours ago, John in Andalucia said:

Ondřej (Grasswing) - your R. baueri seeds will be posted tomorrow. 

Thank you, looking forward to trying my luck with them. 

[Mostapha]

Hey guys, I just potted the Caryotas in coco coir, did lightly dust with rootone, maybe it will help maybe not. Ended up de-lidding 5. I have 26. The rest I will leave alone for now to see if they germinate on their own. Placed the container in my coffee pot, as I had said it always has hot water ready, so it is always warm. Did want to out them on heat pad, I have that set in the 90 degree range for other seeds. 

Well, going to keep my fingers crossed for about the next week or two to see if they put out a nice starter root.

Thanks Mark

[Mostapha]

After checking the Brahea seed from last week this is what I found. Tomorrow going to put it coconut coir, hope it's not too soon. May try a few more.

[John in Andalucia]

Of all the seeds I de-lidded in the past, I also found Brahea to respond the best. How are those Caryota looking, Mark?

[Mostapha]

Thanks for asking. The Caryotas are in the coir, haven't pulled them to check, don't want to take any chance with them. Hoping they are putting out some root. Will give them another week. 

I read an article last night about a palm that is practically impossible to germinate from New Calcidonia. I found it after reading about your getting gifted from RPS 4 seeds. A couple other guys had purchased 20 seeds (extremely expensive $50.00 each) from RPS and had 2 survive at the time of the blog.

Also saw pictures if several seeds showing the embryo of them,( Bismarkias, queens, C. Obtusa) very interesting. I looked for obtusa seeds for a long time, then was told that RPS had (new) listed, just takes so long to get them. Been waiting about a month now, still haven't charged my card, make me wonder if they will be viable. So for now still looking, uf I get more than I need, I will still set them up to germinate then gift the seedlings out. Something about the fishtails that appeal to me.

And if course still waiting on the Howea to do something. Right now they just look like nuts made if mahagany, so the outer fruit is gone, and last I checked still viable with float test and dissecting.

One of the toughest seeds I've worked with. Queens, Bismarkias, Adoniadia, and others germinate for me like Washingtonias, (quickly). 

Will keep you posted, just thinking about the possibilities this technique opens up.

Mark

[Mostapha]

I had mentioned to a friend near Orlando over the phone the other day about this technique, I don't know why he doesn't join the group here. Anyway he told me his B.niblis had been dropping seeds like crazy(he has male and female), and he said he would send me a few fresh ones to try it with. Mind you the last time he sent me a few(?) fresh seeds I received about 100 queen palm seeds. They all germinated, now I have more queens than San Fransisco, no insult intended to anyone, just humor. So it was of no surprise that today I received 40 Bismarkias nobilis, of course I have to clean them, not that I mind. They are a gift horse. They all are currently soaking in hot water for a few days, all resting comfortably on the bottom, no floaters! After cleaning them I'm going to set them up to germinate, but intend on taking a few and removing the lid. Should be interesting to see how fresh seeds fare. 

Will post pics then. Hope everyone enjoys their weekend, I know what my plans are going to be...cleaning Bismark seeds.

The Bruheas seem to be doing well, as do the Caryotas. Meaning as of yet there is no fungus or any kind of rot. Just hope I haven't cursed myself here. As far as the Howeas they are breaking open begining to germinate on their own finally. 

Mark

 

[Mostapha]

WeHere's a pic of a couple of the Bismarkias, just hope I didn't damage the embryo. Will wait a few days then post any difference. Would be nice if it takes, save alot of time. Easy to find the lid, just have to be careful popping it, if it works just another 38 to go.

You guys are teaching me a great deal here, much appreciated. 

Mark

Edited June 3, 2018 by Mostapha
Added 2nd photo

[Mostapha]

The proud parents. Nice silver blue.

[Grasswing]

3 hours ago, Mostapha said:

WeHere's a pic of a couple of the Bismarkias, just hope I didn't damage the embryo. Will wait a few days then post any difference. Would be nice if it takes, save alot of time. Easy to find the lid, just have to be careful popping it, if it works just another 38 to go.

You guys are teaching me a great deal here, much appreciated. 

Mark

Great job Mark,

Bismarckia seeds which are this fresh don't need this process though, they germinate great on their own. 

I've read somewhere on the forum to not use this technique on Hyphaene and Medemia, I wonder why... They are all from Borasseae family.

Regards

Ondra 

[Mostapha]

Thank you. I realize that being this fresh they will germinate pretty quickly, just curious if this will make it quicker. Here in upstate N.Y. we never know just how long the nice weather will last, winter seems forever whereas spring/summer seem a blink of an eye.

After I clean and prepare the remaining seeds I'm going to put them on a heat mat to keep the temps around 85-90 f. Then once I see the tube root starting to show I will use the PVC tube as a treepot as I had read about, written on an earlier post @John in Andalucia, great idea and I thank him for that posting.

That's how I started my red lantia and they are doing great. I try to keep a watchful eye on everything with remote germination, so I'm able to raise them a bit to the first frond.

As far as the Bismarkias, my friend told me that the pop up like crazy under his trees, as the wildlife disperses all over his yard. He said he has attempted to move some, but as far as he has dug to try to get the root out, that even arms length they continue further.

But back to the matter at hand, again like I said, I realize that with proper set up and care they do germinate rather quickly, just wanted to try this with fresh seeds. The worse part with these seeds being so fresh is tediously cleaning them as the fruit flesh is very thick .

[Mostapha]

Hi, the two bismarkia that I had removed the lid from seem to be doing wonderfully in the two days since the start date.

I was concerned I may had damaged one of the embryos, it was the second picture of my other post. Well here it is tonight, showing the button has grown out. This one has only been in water so I could change the water and keep an eye on it, the other is in coco coir, doing great as well. Sorry about the second pic being a little shaky. Mark

[GottmitAlex]

Took two months and a half germination time. I was already giving up. However, today they have now germinated in the outhouse bathroom.

Edited June 5, 2018 by GottmitAlex

[GottmitAlex]

It's funny. The sprouts presented themselves on both pots.  Like clockwork.