ZONE 8 AND 9 CANOPY TREES

[Alicehunter2000]

Those actually look nice...are the berries poisonous? are they really messy?

[monkeyranch]

There is a hardier selection of Elaeocarpus decipiens from Nanjing, China which is now thought to be the species E. sylvestris. It was imported by Piroche Nursery in Vancouver, BC and has had no damage at 13ºF.

Some of these more obscure plant recommendations from me are from a very good Timber Press book called "Trees For All Seasons: Broadleafed Evergreens For Temperate Climates" by Sean Hogan of Cistus Nursery. Intent of book is to expand information and availability of more broadleafed evergreens into USDA 7b-9a, which are too cold to grow many subtropicals typically seen in commercial citrus areas and south. You might be able to find some of these choices only in smaller sizes but I think for a plant connoisseur the uniqueness would be worth the wait.

The magnolias/michelias are very suited to your climate and I would be tempted to collect a bunch of them. Magnolia insignis (Manglietia insignis) is becoming more common in the south and you should probably be able to find a 15 gallon. Check magnolia and camellia specialists. Here's the magnolia list at Durio Nursery in Louisiana. Carolina Nurseries has M. insignis in 2 gallons for mail order. Also, if you have never seen/smelled Magnolia (Michelia) figo you're missing out. Said to smell like "tutti-fruiti", whatever that is, somewhat of a mix of bananas, magnolia, citrus. It is typically shrubbier but there is a small tree form. One of the most customer pleasing plants in the landscapes I have planted it in.

I think M. virginiana is a great, affordable, easy-care, native choice which should not be too assertive to grow other plants under. Hedge your bets with a few of these combined with a few smaller starts of the more obscure stuff you can find. Any of these trees are going to seem fast growing to someone used to watching palms slug along.

I think most of M. grandiflora's reputation for difficulty growing under pertains to old specimens which develop an aggressive root system emerging above the soil level almost like a ficus and it's huge, mulching leaves which might bury small plants. I don't know it it's chemically allelopathic like a black walnut or if it just physically out-competes smaller plants. I have sabal minors around a younger one and they don't mind at all.

What types of plants successfully grow under M. grandiflora and M. virginiana in habitat? Do you find S. palmetto, S. minor, serenoa, or rhapidophyllum growing with them? I suspect any forest understory or canopy emerging palm would tolerate the competition.

[Alicehunter2000]

I think M. virginiana is a great, affordable, easy-care, native choice which should not be too assertive to grow other plants under. Hedge your bets with a few of these combined with a few smaller starts of the more obscure stuff you can find. Any of these trees are going to seem fast growing to someone used to watching palms slug along.

Thanks for the websites and I totally agree on your assessment of what I'm trying to achieve.

[Eric in Orlando]

Those actually look nice...are the berries poisonous? are they really messy?

The berries aren't poisonous. I haven't heard of them being real messy either.

[_Keith]

There is a hardier selection of Elaeocarpus decipiens from Nanjing, China which is now thought to be the species E. sylvestris. It was imported by Piroche Nursery in Vancouver, BC and has had no damage at 13ºF.

Some of these more obscure plant recommendations from me are from a very good Timber Press book called "Trees For All Seasons: Broadleafed Evergreens For Temperate Climates" by Sean Hogan of Cistus Nursery. Intent of book is to expand information and availability of more broadleafed evergreens into USDA 7b-9a, which are too cold to grow many subtropicals typically seen in commercial citrus areas and south. You might be able to find some of these choices only in smaller sizes but I think for a plant connoisseur the uniqueness would be worth the wait.

The magnolias/michelias are very suited to your climate and I would be tempted to collect a bunch of them. Magnolia insignis (Manglietia insignis) is becoming more common in the south and you should probably be able to find a 15 gallon. Check magnolia and camellia specialists. Here's the magnolia list at Durio Nursery in Louisiana. Carolina Nurseries has M. insignis in 2 gallons for mail order. Also, if you have never seen/smelled Magnolia (Michelia) figo you're missing out. Said to smell like "tutti-fruiti", whatever that is, somewhat of a mix of bananas, magnolia, citrus. It is typically shrubbier but there is a small tree form. One of the most customer pleasing plants in the landscapes I have planted it in.

I think M. virginiana is a great, affordable, easy-care, native choice which should not be too assertive to grow other plants under. Hedge your bets with a few of these combined with a few smaller starts of the more obscure stuff you can find. Any of these trees are going to seem fast growing to someone used to watching palms slug along.

I think most of M. grandiflora's reputation for difficulty growing under pertains to old specimens which develop an aggressive root system emerging above the soil level almost like a ficus and it's huge, mulching leaves which might bury small plants. I don't know it it's chemically allelopathic like a black walnut or if it just physically out-competes smaller plants. I have sabal minors around a younger one and they don't mind at all.

What types of plants successfully grow under M. grandiflora and M. virginiana in habitat? Do you find S. palmetto, S. minor, serenoa, or rhapidophyllum growing with them? I suspect any forest understory or canopy emerging palm would tolerate the competition.

David, Durio's is not all that far away from me. If you want something from there let me know. I'll be shooting to head for the panhandle first week of full sun in the 80s, so, not long from now.

[Alicehunter2000]

Thanks Keith.....so Durio's has ALL those magnolia's they are listing? That's quite a list!

[Justin]

Not sure if anyone has listed this, but I think Castanospermum australe would work. It's good at least into the mid 20s, as I've had zero damage to mine, even in 2007. They are evergreen, have nice flowers, and can be trained to grow pretty much any way you want - I have some growing almost straight up, others much more forked and spreading. I also recommend the Tipuana tipu, which works quite well for me in this regard. Finally, Chilean mesquite, aka Kiawe, Prosopis chilensis, can take down to the teens. It is very adaptable to either dry or wetter conditions (particularly if there is good drainage, as I suspect there is in Florida), has a great shape, is again very trainable, and very carefree in my experience. Like the Tipu tree, it drops its leaves around early spring, but only for an exceedingly short period of time (1-2 weeks max), as new leaves are put out immediately after the old leaves drop. I've never had any leaf burn or other problems for plants underneath my Tipu or Kiawe due to the short leaf drop.

[Alicehunter2000]

Beautiful Tree......but alas....not cold hardy enough (it figures)..........http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/18086-castanospermum-australe/

Tipuanu Tipu is also a nice tree....I grew this at my last property. It died back to the main stems every year but grew like crazy during the summers.....super fast. Probably not a canopy tree for me but will grow as a dieback annual.

Could only find one reference to P. chilensis in Florida....this was an article about bee keeping and nectar sources from UF data:

Common Mesquite, Prosopis chilensis, is a

bushy shrub planted along Florida's east coast as a

nectar source. It is propagated by seed.

[Alicehunter2000]

More possible sources : camforest.com (NC) , woodlanders.net (Aiken SC) , cistus.com (OR) , pirocheplants.com (BC), Tallahassee Nursery in Tallahassee, forestfarm.com (OR), Plant sales at botanical gardens such as Leu might pan out. Monrovia has a few of the Michelias.

Great Websites..........lots more possibilities now....developing a new list now....will post later.....thanks for these websites!

[Alicehunter2000]

Ok, here is some more choices that are actually available from mail order sources; Anybody have experience with these?

Daphniphyllum macropodum

Firmiana simplex

Ilex chinensis

Magnolia macrophylla

Nageia nagi

Photinia serratifolia

Schima argentea

Acer fabri

Cinnamomum burmanii

Exbucklandia populnea

Phoebe sp. (similar to P. chekiangensis)

Shima superba

Maytenus boaria (Green Showers)

Quercus myrsinifolia

[stevethegator]

Photinia grows fairly quickly, has brilliant red new growth, and is very cold hardy. They are common and even naturalize in Atlanta, and none have any damage from 5F.

I think it's a great choice

[Alicehunter2000]

After the first cull...........

Daphniphyllum macropodum

Photinia serratifolia

Exbucklandia populnea

Phoebe sp. (similar to P. chekiangensis)

Shima superba

Quercus myrsinifolia

Nageia nagi (Broadleaf Podocarpus)

Podocarpus matudae

Podocarpus henkelii

Magnolia macrophylla is more of an understory tree, I don't expect much canopy from this one.

[_Keith]

After the first cull...........

Daphniphyllum macropodum

Photinia serratifolia

Exbucklandia populnea

Phoebe sp. (similar to P. chekiangensis)

Shima superba

Quercus myrsinifolia

Nageia nagi (Broadleaf Podocarpus)

Podocarpus matudae

Podocarpus henkelii

Magnolia macrophylla is more of an understory tree, I don't expect much canopy from this one.

Do you have local sources for those things?

[Alicehunter2000]

Daphniphyllum macropodum

Keith-Mail order for these plants

[Alicehunter2000]

Photinia serratifolia

[Alicehunter2000]

Exbucklandia populnea

[stevethegator]

Magnolia macrophylla grows wild in sheltered woodlands, I often see it along stream banks. It can grow into an impressive tree, up to 50 feet or more.

It's deciduous, and I'm not sure how it would handle the constant Florida heat or coastal soils

[stevethegator]

Here is a seedling next to my 8 year old cattle dog for scale

Here is a young tree freshly leafed out in early spring

Here is the same tree in bloom a few weeks later

All were taken in the woods behind my old apartment in Atlanta, GA

[Alicehunter2000]

Nice Steve...they grow a little bit north of here also. Not sure about coastal areas. Thanks for alerting me about it being dioecious, I missed that. Would probably grow it as an odditiy not expecting much from it....the leaves are ginormous!

Phoebe chekiangensis

[Alicehunter2000]

Shima superba

[Alicehunter2000]

Quercus myrsinifolia

[Alicehunter2000]

Nageia nagi (Broadleaf Podocarpus)

[Alicehunter2000]

Podocarpus matudae

[Alicehunter2000]

Podocarpus henkelii

[Alicehunter2000]

My wife has suggested that she likes Acacia dealbata

Did I mention that my wife has good tastes.

[Alicehunter2000]

Whittling it down further

Daphniphyllum macropodum

Photinia serratifolia

Exbucklandia populnea

Shima superba

Podocarpus matudae

Podocarpus henkelii

Magnolia macrophylla

Acacia dealbata

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

[bananaman]

I saw earlier in this tread that Sophora secundiflora was suggested as a canopy plant. I disagree. It grows really (really) slowly, and does not get very tall. The largest one I have seen has a trunk 6" in diameter, and is only 20 feet tall. Most have branches all the way to the ground.

A plant that grows all over the place here, and is hardy below 20 degrees is Ligustrum lucidum. It grows really fast and looks very tropical. The ones near my have never been defoliated by a freeze since I've lived here. The coldest it has gotten in that time period is 17 degrees. It gets around 40 feet tall. It would make a really good canopy plant, but it is very invasive. They look really good, but are insanely invasive here in Austin. I imagine they would be horribly invasive in a more tropical place, like Florida...

Edited March 15, 2014 by bananaman

[stevethegator]

I saw earlier in this tread that Sophora secundiflora was suggested as a canopy plant. I disagree. It grows really (really) slowly, and does not get very tall. The largest one I have seen has a trunk 6" in diameter, and is only 20 feet tall. Most have branches all the way to the ground.

A plant that grows all over the place here, and is hardy below 20 degrees is Ligustrum lucidum. It grows really fast and looks very tropical. The ones near my have never been defoliated by a freeze since I've lived here. The coldest it has gotten in that time period is 17 degrees. It gets around 40 feet tall. It would make a really good canopy plant, but it is very invasive. They look really good, but are insanely invasive here in Austin. I imagine they would be horribly invasive in a more tropical place, like Florida...

They grow in Atlanta too and took 5F undamaged. I agree they're very tropical looking and make a nice midsize tree. They're not super in invasive in ATL either, but you do see them naturalizing occasionally

[Eric in Orlando]

Ligustrum lucidum is a nice tree but is very fragile as it gets older. It is super fast growing and grows in sun or shade, wet or dry. Here once they get around 15-20 years old they are very prone to splitting and breaking in storms. They look very tropical as a mature tree but would not recommend it as a canopy tree that would be sheltering palms.

[stevethegator]

Ligustrum lucidum is a nice tree but is very fragile as it gets older. It is super fast growing and grows in sun or shade, wet or dry. Here once they get around 15-20 years old they are very prone to splitting and breaking in storms. They look very tropical as a mature tree but would not recommend it as a canopy tree that would be sheltering palms.

Good to know Eric!

[stevethegator]

Thought I'd share these pictures of a Photinia hedge in my apartment complex, starting to flush with new growth. The snowstorm, the ice storm, and 5F didn't damage it a bit! This species/variety grows into a huge tree around here, this one is just trimmed regularly into a hedge.

[stevethegator]

Sorry for posting them sideways, why does it do that?

[Eric in Orlando]

I have seen a few around as trees. It is neat to see them grown like that.

[monkeyranch]

Photinia and eriobotyra would take slightly longer to reach tree size but the result is very nice. Photinia serrulata wants to be tree-sized faster than the other photinias. Link to Fastfeats's topic with E. deflexa, E. 'Coppertone', and rhapiolepis 'Majestic Beauty' side by side.

Here are a few of the missing images from the topic.

Ligustrum lucidum is lush looking and fast and I have a few but they tend to seed all over the place. They are easy to pull out though if you keep up on it.

Magnolia macrophylla is deciduous and although it has large leaves the flowers are not that distinctive. Schima is slower. Podocarpus henkelii is awesome looking but medium-slower.

If I were planning your yard I would go with magnolia (mangliettia) insignis, m. virginiana, m. (michelia) maudiae, photinia serrulata, quercus virginiana, a standard-pruned red or pink nerium (easy to find at least in Cali), citrus 'Sudachi', grapefruit, and/or Meyer Lemon for faster canopy and ease of care.

For some slower options to complement the others I would go with michelia figo 'Tree Form', Daphniphyllum macropodum, some of the hardy scheffleras like S. digitata, S. taiwaniana, Eriobotyra 'Coppertone', and maybe Trochodendron aralioides. Hardy scheffleras: One, Two.

I used to have an aversion to too many conifers as they can reduce the tropical vibe but then remind myself they are native to the warm latitudes of Florida, Mexico, and the high peaks of some Caribbean islands.. Eric is right, they give good canopy once up high just stick with the long needle species like P. elliottii, and P. palustris for the lushest effect.

Musical diversion: Danny Elliot "Where The Palms Meet The Pines"

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/2EKD55gWeFg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There certainly are suitable acacias and eucalypts to research as many are from comparably humid areas of New South Wales and Victoria. A. dealbata is fast and beautiful but may be brittle (?) and I think is from cooler areas in the mountains. Does great in Cali but I'm not sure how it performs in lowland Florida. For some reason I keep coming back to E. neglecta (Omeo Gum) for speed and it's success in Alabama. Remember it is the largest, messy eucs that give them all a bad reputation. The smaller ones are not as unruly. Maybe some Aussies could suggest some varieties for compact yards.

Super fragrant Pittosporum tobira is from wetter climate of Japan, Korea and China and can get tree-like fairly quickly with pruning.

Good luck and keep us posted on which you decide to go with.

Edit: very frustrating trying to embed youtube code. Help Super DoomsDave !!! You make it look easy every time you post nice music to listen to from youtube. I know its something obvious and easy I'm missing each time.

[Alicehunter2000]

Will see if the places I'm ordering from carry these.....magnolia (mangliettia) insignis, scheffleras like S. digitata, S. taiwaniana, and Trochodendron aralioides.

E. neglecta ....I'm still on the fence about....don't know about the roots sucking up all the water from my other plants with these. Also unsure if anything can grow underneath or if they have the same problem as magnolia's.

[_Keith]

E. neglecta ....I'm still on the fence about....don't know about the roots sucking up all the water from my other plants with these. Also unsure if anything can grow underneath or if they have the same problem as magnolia's.

What kind of irrigation are you going to use, drip, spray, soaker, etc???

[Alicehunter2000]

Ok....made the first purchase. Was able to snag these 6 ft. Magnolia virginiana's for $25 each at Wal-Mart. First time I've seen them available. At least I won't have to pay for shipping and they are not bare-rooted.

[_Keith]

Ok....made the first purchase. Was able to snag these 6 ft. Magnolia virginiana's for $25 each at Wal-Mart. First time I've seen them available. At least I won't have to pay for shipping and they are not bare-rooted.20140326_133505.jpg

Oh man, that is a deal. Got to go look for some locally.

[Alicehunter2000]

Keith they probably got them. They were next to the fruit trees.

Cornus elliptica and Rhododendron decorum are two more possibilities. Don't know if they can grow in zone 9a?

[stevethegator]

I was going to recommend cornus elliptica actually, a house I drive by everyday has one out front and the evergreen foliage really stands out from all the bare deciduous stuff. Plus those little red fruits make it look a lot like a lychee. Don't know about Zone 9 but if its readily available and not too expensive I'd give it a shot!

Just looked up r. Decorum, it's from subtropical Southeast Asia and is likely zone 9 in parts of its habitat. However it's from the mountains which is gong to be a different climate than coastal Florida.

The biggest issue you'd have with rhododendrons is that they like fairly rich and acidic soils, and with the exception of azaleas are not very heat tolerant. Maybe pick a shady spot, dig a much larger hole and backfill with more suitable soil mixture? Rhodies have smallish root systems that are mostly the fine feeder type so I think that may work. I've had luck growing less heat tolerant plants like Howea and Dicksonia in south Florida with shade.

If you succeed with r. Decorum there are many awesome rhododendron species from the same Yunnan/southeast Asian region you may like including giant tree rhododendron (rhododendron sinogrande).

Edited March 27, 2014 by stevethegator