trachycarpus winsan, a new species of trachy or a variant of fortunei?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I got to see a full grown trachycarpus winsan in Portland last week, and it's pretty obvious these are NOT a variant of trachycarpus fortunei. The palm collector in the outskirts of Portland I visited had BOTH trachycarpus winsan AND some rare fortunei that also had the full circle leaves. He had been collecting the full circle regular fortunei for years by picking them out at nurseries. But the winsan, which exclusively has full circle leaves not only looks very different from fortunei, but it's also not even close as hardy, being perhaps about as hardy as martinanus. On the other hand, the full circle fortunei all had the same hardiness as the usual fortunei.

This is Gary Tsen's post about these: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/26227-winsan-a-possible-undescribed-new-trachycarpus-variety/.

My conclusion on this week's experience is that Gary Tsen is right and Winsan is a distinct species. The confusion just stems from the fact that there is a form of trachycarpus fortunei that also has full 360 degree circle leaves.

I should have taken photos, but it was just too bloody cold up there. The center of the leaf on winsan is a little yellow knob, and the leaf texture is much finer, and actually a little smaller. The regular fortunei just looks like a fortunei with round leaves.

The seeds seem different, see this photo:

This is another thread about winsan, but most of the pictures are not winsan, but regular fortunei that have round leaves.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/15209-trachycarpus-fortunei-with-round-leaves-tfortunei-winsan/

[Zeeth]

Cool. I've always thought that Trachycarpus kind of looked like Thrinax radiata, and the circle leaf variation adds to that.

http://www.acostafarms.net/images/plants/Thatch%20palm.jpg

[tjwalters]

I had a potted full-circle windmill. When it got too large I planted it outside and it subsequently died (winter freeze). Below are a couple pictures. Which would you say this is?

[Sabal Steve]

A little off topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread... I originally thought T. princeps, but I don't know much about the genus. Seeds looked like princeps from the uploaded image, but all those seeds look pretty similar to me too.

[Vic]

Axel, I would say Garry has found a new variety and for me its less to do with the 360 degree leaf although this seems a stable trait, but more to do with the seeds. For me there is no question it is something different to fortunei.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel, I would say Garry has found a new variety and for me its less to do with the 360 degree leaf although this seems a stable trait, but more to do with the seeds. For me there is no question it is something different to fortunei.

winsan.JPG

I am curious how this one has performed for you in the UK. I heard reports from Portland of total lack of hardiness, damage. near 22-25F, very different from fortunei. You are right about the 360 degree features, it's not what defines this species, since it's possible to also find regular fortunei tha have this trait. The leaf texture to me looks very different, and the leaf hastula is also quite different looking. The color of the leaf also seems closer to a tropical lime green than the darker green of a regular fortunei.

[Vic]

Axel, I would say Garry has found a new variety and for me its less to do with the 360 degree leaf although this seems a stable trait, but more to do with the seeds. For me there is no question it is something different to fortunei.

winsan.JPG

I am curious how this one has performed for you in the UK. I heard reports from Portland of total lack of hardiness, damage. near 22-25F, very different from fortunei. You are right about the 360 degree features, it's not what defines this species, since it's possible to also find regular fortunei tha have this trait. The leaf texture to me looks very different, and the leaf hastula is also quite different looking. The color of the leaf also seems closer to a tropical lime green than the darker green of a regular fortunei.

The problem is nobody has a good size specimen to test, as far as i'm aware Garry has only been supplying seeds for 5 years? Mine are certainly not big enough to plant out. Saying this there seem to be a few winsan hybrids around; si i ca only assume that Garry has supplied these seeds to produce hybrids with nanus and fortunei because as you correctly pointed out, just because a trachy has 360 degree leaves this does not make it winsan.

[maesy]

Hi Vic

I planted my T.winsan out last year that I got us a presant from Max on our EPS trip to Rome in 2012. It is still small and there was not much of a winter test so far with lows only to -7,5°C for two or three times.

It is planted under canopy of some kind of pinetree.

It truely looks very different to a common fortunei.

Marcel

[maesy]

Hi Vic

I planted my T.winsan out last year that I got as a presant from Max on our EPS trip to Rome in 2012. It is still small and there was not much of a winter test so far with lows only to -7,5°C for two or three times.

It is planted under canopy of some kind of pinetree.

It truely looks very different to a common fortunei.

Marcel

Edited March 3, 2014 by maesy

[maesy]

The damaged leaf is from a sudden spear pull it had last summer.

[Vic]

Ahhhh the Rome trip....I Remember the stress well

That's an interesting looking seedling Marcel, mine is a couple of yours behind yours and if it has seen -7.5c at that size then that is encouraging.