Please ID These Newly Purchased Sabal Palms

[Jim in Los Altos]

I purchased these four 5 gallon Sabal palms at the big box store in San Jose yesterday and they're mislabeled as Brahea. As you can see, they have the characteristic heels. Do these look like S. 'riverside' or are they something else?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Looks like sabal minor to me.

[_Keith]

Sabal brahea

[Ken Johnson]

minor is my guess

[Bigfish]

I don't think those are S. minor. S. minor doesn't have the "hairs" that your palms have. They do have a nice, bluish tint to the leaves, so S. 'Riverside' is certainly a possibility, especially considering that you live in CA. It's probably a trunking Sabal, and one that gets rather large. All just my humble opinion.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I don't think those are S. minor. S. minor doesn't have the "hairs" that your palms have. They do have a nice, bluish tint to the leaves, so S. 'Riverside' is certainly a possibility, especially considering that you live in CA. It's probably a trunking Sabal, and one that gets rather large. All just my humble opinion.

Frank, that's why I thought they might be riverside. Two have already been planted in a client's yard where we've planted a number of palms.

[Stevetoad]

My guess is sabal palmetto. Those are pretty common at hd so it seems likely the tags got messed up.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Sabal minor is pretty darn blue depending on which strain you have. I've got several of them, would be glad to post some photos tomorrow. For what it's worth, using "blue" to key out a sabal seedling is almost pointless, because a large number of sabal species have a blue tinge to them as seedlings. Same with the "hairs".

Now the one distinguishing factor that I used to ID those as sabal minor is that the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, That's the sabal minor signature. A couple of the pots are highly likely to be sabal minor. The other two have more elongated leaves, harder to tell.

[Stevetoad]

True but most won't be costa palmate at that size. I was just in the Bahamas and s palmetto were 4 foot and still flat leaved. Likewise my big sabal was totally flat even as as a 15 gal. It didn't go costa until it was about 6 foot. Minor should have a deep split almost to the hastula too if I'm remebering right.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

True but most won't be costa palmate at that size. I was just in the Bahamas and s palmetto were 4 foot and still flat leaved. Likewise my big sabal was totally flat even as as a 15 gal. It didn't go costa until it was about 6 foot. Minor should have a deep split almost to the hastula too if I'm remebering right.

That's a good point, and big box store is highest likelihood to be palmetto.

Do consider that not all minor forms have the deep split. This is the split that you're talking about:

This one doesn't have the split and looks just like Jim's.

Sabal minor 'McCurtain" doesn't have the split and it's blue. But the big box stores are not going to be McCurtain.

This is sabal palmetto and also sorta looks like Jim's.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Here are pics of a bunch of seedlings, happy trails trying to ID the ones above.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/palms/msg0508352110794.html?43

[Stevetoad]

I agree young sabals are a crap shoot to ID. Going by just what I've seen at hd for sale points me to palmetto. By no stretch would I say I'm certain. Good to know all minors don't have the deep split.

[Bigfish]

Sabal minor is pretty darn blue depending on which strain you have. I've got several of them, would be glad to post some photos tomorrow. For what it's worth, using "blue" to key out a sabal seedling is almost pointless, because a large number of sabal species have a blue tinge to them as seedlings. Same with the "hairs".

Now the one distinguishing factor that I used to ID those as sabal minor is that the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, That's the sabal minor signature. A couple of the pots are highly likely to be sabal minor. The other two have more elongated leaves, harder to tell.

Well, for the record, I wasn't saying that they couldn't be Sabal minor because of the bluish color. I was just pointing out that the bluish color could mean that they could be Sabal 'Riverside'. The numerous "hairs" in the palms pictured, for me, eliminates Sabal minor as a possibility. I have never seen Sabal minor with hairs that numerous at that size. In fact, it's rare to ever see a Sabal minor with ANY filaments at all. I'll bet those palms turn out to be a large, trunking Sabal. Just my opinion.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Sabal minor is pretty darn blue depending on which strain you have. I've got several of them, would be glad to post some photos tomorrow. For what it's worth, using "blue" to key out a sabal seedling is almost pointless, because a large number of sabal species have a blue tinge to them as seedlings. Same with the "hairs".

Now the one distinguishing factor that I used to ID those as sabal minor is that the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, That's the sabal minor signature. A couple of the pots are highly likely to be sabal minor. The other two have more elongated leaves, harder to tell.

Well, for the record, I wasn't saying that they couldn't be Sabal minor because of the bluish color. I was just pointing out that the bluish color could mean that they could be Sabal 'Riverside'. The numerous "hairs" in the palms pictured, for me, eliminates Sabal minor as a possibility. I have never seen Sabal minor with hairs that numerous at that size. In fact, it's rare to ever see a Sabal minor with ANY filaments at all. I'll bet those palms turn out to be a large, trunking Sabal. Just my opinion.

I wasn't challenging your ID, besides, Steve has me convinced they're Palmetto. I doubt big box stores would sell anything different. The filament comment you made on minor is interesting, the sabal key I have doesn't talk about filaments, which sabal have them?

[Bigfish]

Sabal minor is pretty darn blue depending on which strain you have. I've got several of them, would be glad to post some photos tomorrow. For what it's worth, using "blue" to key out a sabal seedling is almost pointless, because a large number of sabal species have a blue tinge to them as seedlings. Same with the "hairs".

Now the one distinguishing factor that I used to ID those as sabal minor is that the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, That's the sabal minor signature. A couple of the pots are highly likely to be sabal minor. The other two have more elongated leaves, harder to tell.

Well, for the record, I wasn't saying that they couldn't be Sabal minor because of the bluish color. I was just pointing out that the bluish color could mean that they could be Sabal 'Riverside'. The numerous "hairs" in the palms pictured, for me, eliminates Sabal minor as a possibility. I have never seen Sabal minor with hairs that numerous at that size. In fact, it's rare to ever see a Sabal minor with ANY filaments at all. I'll bet those palms turn out to be a large, trunking Sabal. Just my opinion.

I wasn't challenging your ID, besides, Steve has me convinced they're Palmetto. I doubt big box stores would sell anything different. The filament comment you made on minor is interesting, the sabal key I have doesn't talk about filaments, which sabal have them?

Well, I have seen Sabal minor at the big box stores here on occasion. I couldn't tell you all of the Sabal that have filaments but I do know that S. palmetto, S. mexicana, and some of the other trunking Sabal do. Never seen them on any form of Sabal minor.

[WestCoastGal]

Jim, what about Sabal etonia? It is maybe the only(?) sabal minor that is drought tolerant. Seems like most people associate sabals as needing a fair amount of water and aren't aware there is one that doesn't. Etonia has filaments and is a lighter green than a sabal minor, but is still considered part of the sabal minor family. It may grow a trunk. From your photo the frond on one of those appears to have a rather longish, developing costa and could be more costapalmate down the road. Sabal etonia I believe comes from central Florida in the scrub/sand area so doesn't need the same amount of water as those minors growing along river streams. If yours are etonias, the drought tolerant/cold hardy label on it, apart from the species, could still be accurate.

Reminds me of the Sabal minor we have although ours is probably 5 to 6 feet now overall and unfortunately we didn't see it grow from a young stage. I think ours is an etonia but told to give it more time in the ground as it had been in a box for sometime. It has not trunked. Have read up quite a bit trying to research its characteristics and traits. It has the green fronds, filaments, strongly costapalmate, had a heel until a landscaper cut into it, right number of fronds, loves the heat and doesn't seem to need much water. The inflorescence is held below the frond heights. I have forgotten what the fruit measures but seemed in line as I recall with what I've read for that palm.

Another thing to look for would be the inflorescence down the road. Sabal etonia will hold it within the fronds, not above, which will differentiate it from a true Sabal minor. Believe etonia is the only sabal minor variety like that. Also Sabal palmettos supposedly won't flower and fruit until they put on a trunk so you can rule that out if you see it before then.

[WestCoastGal]

BTW our sabal minor (etonia?) made it beautifully thru the hotest weather we had last summer (high 90Fs/low 100s) and our recent winter low of 23F (minus the winter rains) with out blinking.

Above I said that the sabal etonia was considered part of the sabal minor family but wonder if that is really true. Maybe not and considered separate? It looks very much like the minor with many of the same characteristics, underground trunk, etc. and I find them discussed usually along with minors. I'd love to find a really detailed book on these palms.

[Bigfish]

BTW our sabal minor (etonia?) made it beautifully thru the hotest weather we had last summer (high 90Fs/low 100s) and our recent winter low of 23F (minus the winter rains) with out blinking.

Above I said that the sabal etonia was considered part of the sabal minor family but wonder if that is really true. Maybe not and considered separate? It looks very much like the minor with many of the same characteristics, underground trunk, etc. and I find them discussed usually along with minors. I'd love to find a really detailed book on these palms.

Sabal etonia is a separate species. While that could be a possibility, I think it is highly unlikely that a big box store would be carrying S. etonia.

[Bigfish]

Sabal minor is pretty darn blue depending on which strain you have. I've got several of them, would be glad to post some photos tomorrow. For what it's worth, using "blue" to key out a sabal seedling is almost pointless, because a large number of sabal species have a blue tinge to them as seedlings. Same with the "hairs".

Now the one distinguishing factor that I used to ID those as sabal minor is that the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, That's the sabal minor signature. A couple of the pots are highly likely to be sabal minor. The other two have more elongated leaves, harder to tell.

Well, for the record, I wasn't saying that they couldn't be Sabal minor because of the bluish color. I was just pointing out that the bluish color could mean that they could be Sabal 'Riverside'. The numerous "hairs" in the palms pictured, for me, eliminates Sabal minor as a possibility. I have never seen Sabal minor with hairs that numerous at that size. In fact, it's rare to ever see a Sabal minor with ANY filaments at all. I'll bet those palms turn out to be a large, trunking Sabal. Just my opinion.

I wasn't challenging your ID, besides, Steve has me convinced they're Palmetto. I doubt big box stores would sell anything different. The filament comment you made on minor is interesting, the sabal key I have doesn't talk about filaments, which sabal have them?

Well, I have seen Sabal minor at the big box stores here on occasion. I couldn't tell you all of the Sabal that have filaments but I do know that S. palmetto, S. mexicana, and some of the other trunking Sabal do. Never seen them on any form of Sabal minor.

Here's a piece put out by UF that tells the differences between Sabal palms native to FL: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fr357

Under Sabal minor, it states: Leaf segments are only joined a short distance near the base and have no filamentous fibers.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Sabal minor is pretty darn blue depending on which strain you have. I've got several of them, would be glad to post some photos tomorrow. For what it's worth, using "blue" to key out a sabal seedling is almost pointless, because a large number of sabal species have a blue tinge to them as seedlings. Same with the "hairs".

Now the one distinguishing factor that I used to ID those as sabal minor is that the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, That's the sabal minor signature. A couple of the pots are highly likely to be sabal minor. The other two have more elongated leaves, harder to tell.

Well, for the record, I wasn't saying that they couldn't be Sabal minor because of the bluish color. I was just pointing out that the bluish color could mean that they could be Sabal 'Riverside'. The numerous "hairs" in the palms pictured, for me, eliminates Sabal minor as a possibility. I have never seen Sabal minor with hairs that numerous at that size. In fact, it's rare to ever see a Sabal minor with ANY filaments at all. I'll bet those palms turn out to be a large, trunking Sabal. Just my opinion.

I wasn't challenging your ID, besides, Steve has me convinced they're Palmetto. I doubt big box stores would sell anything different. The filament comment you made on minor is interesting, the sabal key I have doesn't talk about filaments, which sabal have them?

Well, I have seen Sabal minor at the big box stores here on occasion. I couldn't tell you all of the Sabal that have filaments but I do know that S. palmetto, S. mexicana, and some of the other trunking Sabal do. Never seen them on any form of Sabal minor.

Here's a piece put out by UF that tells the differences between Sabal palms native to FL: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fr357

Under Sabal minor, it states: Leaf segments are only joined a short distance near the base and have no filamentous fibers.

Frank, I'd say you got a home run on this one. That same doc talks about the filaments on palmetto, and the pictures in this doc really do match Jim's. This is what I love about PalmTalk, always learning something. I really had never paid attention to the filaments. I should really plant at least one palmetto, it's the only sabal not represented in my collection. A bit embarrassing really, I sorta always looked at these as way too common. Whenever I go to Florida, they're just so overplanted.

[Sabal Steve]

Sabal minor is pretty darn blue depending on which strain you have. I've got several of them, would be glad to post some photos tomorrow. For what it's worth, using "blue" to key out a sabal seedling is almost pointless, because a large number of sabal species have a blue tinge to them as seedlings. Same with the "hairs". Now the one distinguishing factor that I used to ID those as sabal minor is that the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, That's the sabal minor signature. A couple of the pots are highly likely to be sabal minor. The other two have more elongated leaves, harder to tell.

Well, for the record, I wasn't saying that they couldn't be Sabal minor because of the bluish color. I was just pointing out that the bluish color could mean that they could be Sabal 'Riverside'. The numerous "hairs" in the palms pictured, for me, eliminates Sabal minor as a possibility. I have never seen Sabal minor with hairs that numerous at that size. In fact, it's rare to ever see a Sabal minor with ANY filaments at all. I'll bet those palms turn out to be a large, trunking Sabal. Just my opinion.

I wasn't challenging your ID, besides, Steve has me convinced they're Palmetto. I doubt big box stores would sell anything different. The filament comment you made on minor is interesting, the sabal key I have doesn't talk about filaments, which sabal have them?

Well, I have seen Sabal minor at the big box stores here on occasion. I couldn't tell you all of the Sabal that have filaments but I do know that S. palmetto, S. mexicana, and some of the other trunking Sabal do. Never seen them on any form of Sabal minor.

Here's a piece put out by UF that tells the differences between Sabal palms native to FL: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fr357 Under Sabal minor, it states: Leaf segments are only joined a short distance near the base and have no filamentous fibers.

Frank, I'd say you got a home run on this one. That same doc talks about the filaments on palmetto, and the pictures in this doc really do match Jim's. This is what I love about PalmTalk, always learning something. I really had never paid attention to the filaments. I should really plant at least one palmetto, it's the only sabal not represented in my collection. A bit embarrassing really, I sorta always looked at these as way too common. Whenever I go to Florida, they're just so overplanted.

One of the nicest stands of S. palmetto that I've ever seen, is in a group of 8 or so near the Air and Space Museum in Balboa Park. They're super robust and look flawless. I bet theyre 40 ft tall. Edited March 10, 2014 by Sabal Steve