Manganese deficiency in Mule?

[Duppy]

What say you. Been in the ground almost 3 months. The other 4 I planted with it, including one 6 feet away in same soil are doing great. Three fronds are like this.

v/r

Edited August 12, 2014 by Duppy

[Duppy]

Update: took a closer look at the one next to it. It seems to have one frond starting to yellow.

[_Keith]

There are far greater experts than me on this board, but I do not think yellowing is a characteristic of manganese deficiency.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Keith, palms aren't tomatoes, it's counter intuitive to a veggie grower but yes, yellowing is Mg defficiency, see http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ep273

Yellowing - manganese deficiency

light green - Nitrogen deficiency

splotchy spotted with drying tips - Potassium deficiency

However, Keith, you are right, the above plant is N deficient, I see light green, not yellow discoloration.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Keith, palms aren't tomatoes, it's counter intuitive to a veggie grower but yes, yellowing is Mg defficiency, see http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ep273

Yellowing - manganese deficiency

light green - Nitrogen deficiency

splotchy spotted with drying tips - Potassium deficiency

However, Keith, you are right, the above plant is N deficient, I see light green, not yellow discoloration.

Axel, I know MAGnesium deficiency will cause yellowing but nearly every MANganese deficient palm I've seen was nearly fully green with deformed new fronds and, maybe, a bit of yellowing on the deformed leaves. Frizzle-top is the word often used to describe the condition.

[Jim in Los Altos]

What say you. Been in the ground almost 3 months. The other 4 I planted with it, including one 6 feet away in same soil are doing great. Three fronds are like this.

v/r

Duppy, I see deformation in that frond and would suggest feeding it with a manganese specific fertilizer. Lutz sells the spikes. I've treated a number of palms for clients with this deficiency successfully with those spikes and a couple of the palms were mature and very near death.

[LJG]

Keith, palms aren't tomatoes, it's counter intuitive to a veggie grower but yes, yellowing is Mg defficiency, see http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ep273

Yellowing - manganese deficiency

light green - Nitrogen deficiency

splotchy spotted with drying tips - Potassium deficiency

However, Keith, you are right, the above plant is N deficient, I see light green, not yellow discoloration.

Just FYI, he asked about Manganese (Mn) Axel.

Duppy, Mn deficiency effects the newest leaves and you see it in opening fronds. I would assume yours *if* anything could be the start of Magnesium or Potassium deficiency. The two kind of go together in a way. This is why it is easier to treat both. In fact speciality K ferts that treat deficiency include Mg in them.

<edit> Looks like Jim beat me to it

[Jim in Los Altos]

A better photo of more of the palm would definitely help. On my computer screen, all I'm seeing is a curled, somewhat deformed leaf that's mostly green. I'm not seeing the telltale yellow speckles typical of potassium deficiency or the typical yellowing of the inner parts of the frond typical of magnesium deficiency. Duppy, will you post a picture of your whole mule palm please?

[_Keith]

A better photo of more of the palm would definitely help. On my computer screen, all I'm seeing is a curled, somewhat deformed leaf that's mostly green. I'm not seeing the telltale yellow speckles typical of potassium deficiency or the typical yellowing of the inner parts of the frond typical of magnesium deficiency. Duppy, will you post a picture of your whole mule palm please?

Didn't notice the mangled leaf. Otherwise, I would've definitely said manganese

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I don't know what you guys see in that photo, I mainly see sun-bleached leaves that look light green and no leaf deformation. The easiest thing to do is to treat the palm with sul-po-mag just to be safe.

But, to correct my previous post, deuh, I did the dyslexic move of swapping out Manganese with Magnesium.

Yellowing - magnesium deficiency

light green - Nitrogen deficiency

splotchy spotted with drying tips - Potassium deficiency

As for manganese deficiency, I would never even have considered it for this palm.

[Duppy]

I'll post pics in the morning. I did put Jobes Palm spikes in about 2.5 weeks ago. Maybe too soon after planting? But they are 10-5-10 N-P-K. I'm wishing now I had gone with Lutz maintenance spikes as they seem to have more nutrients. I have a couple manganese spikes, but wasn't sure if they were needed, or if they would hurt the palm if it wasn't Mn deficient.

We have been in the 100's for the last 2 weeks, and 100's predicted for the next week also.

v/r

Edited August 13, 2014 by Duppy

[_Keith]

A full spectrum palm fertilizer is the ticket. No need to waste a whole palm spike on such a small palm. Put down a quarter spike on two sides, but be prepared to wait a bit for results. Or just put down a general fast release all purpose palm fert and water in good.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I've had really bad experiences with Jobes Palm spikes. I will never use them again. I fertilized one of my brahea with them, and within one month I got major deficiency symptoms. Those spikes are devoid of the appropriate micro-nutrients needed for palms. They suck.

[Cedric]

I thought sunburn at first. But to be sure Im thinking it doesn't harm to rule out something else, early symptoms of root suffocation. Did you plant the palms deeper (too deep) than how they were growing in the pot? Or cover the stem and surface roots with too much moisture retaining mulch and water a lot, this can cause the roots to suffocate. The very first symptoms of suffocation are iron (Fe) deficiency which causes chlorosis, as it progresses subsequent new leaves will then also be chlorotic. If not resolved wilting and desiccation,shrinking of the stem and etc

Onset of chlorosis due to suffocation is quite rapid. So if its been like that for a few months its unlikely. In which case I would try iron and nitrogen you might have PH shock, too neutral or too acidic.

I would dig around a bit and see if its too wet or sunk too deep and if the roots are still firm. Im guessing in high heat like that it must be tempting to water a lot and cover up deep.

What's up with all the charcoal?

I have a very interesting case of phytotoxicity caused by systemic pesticide. A very promising Copernicia hospita "juvenile" turned from white-silver to pink then to a rather nasty red. Burnt in the sun as the chemical caused hyper sensitivity to light. Im not thinking it will live even though the spear and second youngest leaf look fine I think its tickets, curled up and nasty. Eyeing a lemon tree to take its place as there is nothing I can do at this stage. The pink silver hue looked interesting so I ignored it sadly.

[avanza]

Keith, palms aren't tomatoes, it's counter intuitive to a veggie grower but yes, yellowing is Mg defficiency, see http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ep273

Yellowing - manganese deficiency

light green - Nitrogen deficiency

splotchy spotted with drying tips - Potassium deficiency

However, Keith, you are right, the above plant is N deficient, I see light green, not yellow discoloration.

I'm noted

Thank you very much Axel.

[NorthFlpalmguy]

Just something around a 12-8-12 or 10-10-10 with minors and you should be good. I fertilize mine 3-4x a year. Looks like Mn def to me as well.

[Duppy]

Man you guys are a wealth of information. Now to absorb and retain.

As Requested

Here is the whole plant. Fronds in question are center front, back left, and front right.

New growth seems to be ok. White paper for contrast. Little dark as the sun hits this one last.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Duppy

[Duppy]

Pulled back mulch to show planting depth.

New growth on second plant, 6 feet away shows some yellowing or light greening

.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Duppy

[Jim in Los Altos]

Duppy, thanks for the better shots. It's clear now to me that it definitely does not suffer a manganese deficiency. Overall, your palm looks healthy. The oldest frond may have been sunburnt shortly after you planted it. If it's been in the ground six months or more, go ahead and feed it a quality palm specific fertilizer with micronutrients. A properly fed palm will withstand winter extremes much better than one that's not.

[avanza]

Duppy try 15-15-15 every 15 days

Edited August 13, 2014 by avanza

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Duppy try 15-15-15 every 15 days

Oh no, you do not want that much phosphorus, not good for palms. Stick with 13-1-13.

[avanza]

haha axel i have tried my self

[avanza]

Duppy try 15-15-15 every 15 days

Oh no, you do not want that much phosphorus, not good for palms. Stick with 13-1-13.

sorry sir i'm nut

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Duppy try 15-15-15 every 15 days

Oh no, you do not want that much phosphorus, not good for palms. Stick with 13-1-13.

sorry sir i'm nut

Nutty is all good, I just wanted to point out that high phosphorous interferes with nutrient uptake and can also have harmful environmental impact. Most soils are loaded with phosphorous already, hence you need very little. many commercial nurseries don't even use it.

[Duppy]

Thanks for all your help guys, in alleviating my worries and the ongoing education about palms.

V/R

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

I believe this is manganese deficiency .

I use lutz and it goes away in a couple of months.

I need to start adding the fert early in the year.

[Cedric]

Duppy try 15-15-15 every 15 days

Oh no, you do not want that much phosphorus, not good for palms. Stick with 13-1-13.

sorry sir i'm nut

Nutty is all good, I just wanted to point out that high phosphorous interferes with nutrient uptake and can also have harmful environmental impact. Most soils are loaded with phosphorous already, hence you need very little. many commercial nurseries don't even use it.

Yes in my experience this is 100% sound.

[_Keith]

Having tons of Phosphorus does not necessarily mean it is freely available to plants. To be sure, get a soil test. Its cheap.

[Cedric]

Palms need minimum phosphorus in my experience. I use 12-0-43 with very good results, diluted somewhat for seedlings. As a foliage spray and root drench its the safest most visibly beneficial stuff around.

[Cedric]

Pulled back mulch to show planting depth.

photo 1.JPG

New growth on second plant, 6 feet away shows some yellowing or light greening

.

photo 3.JPG

This looks a bit rotten wet to me but its difficult to tell from a picture, (you might have just wartered) does it smell OK, sweet? Is it drip irrigation?

One thing I wouldn't do is fertilise at the roots at this point at all, it wont starve at this size just yet (: Keep the mulch back a bit let the stem get some air, dry out a bit if its water logged. If you've got some overcast days or can shade for a day you could spray the foliage with something with low nitrogen high potassium pretty safely just don't drench the root ball.

Pretty much never mulch right up to the stem in young palms you want the old leaf bases to dry out not rot off as that causes some problems.

Are the palms still in their grow bags because that could cause drainage problems too? I don't know what kind of grow bag that is but maybe it hasn't allowed the roots out sufficiently.

[Cedric]

I believe this is manganese deficiency .

I use lutz and it goes away in a couple of months.

I need to start adding the fert early in the year.

Yes classic picture book stylie. This always takes me by surprise. None of my plams are affected except a red Latania lontaroides palm, pretty large one with three feet of trunk or so. Massive massive super size leaves the whole plam looks like its on steroids then suddenly one dwarf stunted new spike, often the petiole recovers first but the fan is just ten cm diameter, dark green with red midrib. For me it takes half the season to come right, three deformed leaves in ever increasing size then a fully normal leaf again. I dont do anything it comes right by itself. I've never known why it does this every three years or so its so dramatic from the robust thing it normaly is. The yellow Latania verschaffeltii never does this just ploughs on slowly.

Im tending towards extreme high rainfall as a possible cause same as for temporary Boron insufficiency can be in some palm species here.

Just editied to say the Latania lontaroides holds onto its old leaves incredibly well for a few years at least so the set back is quite brief as these are huge.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Cedric

[Cedric]

Pulled back mulch to show planting depth.

photo 1.JPG

New growth on second plant, 6 feet away shows some yellowing or light greening

.

photo 3.JPG

This looks a bit rotten wet to me but its difficult to tell from a picture, (you might have just wartered) does it smell OK, sweet? Is it drip irrigation?

One thing I wouldn't do is fertilise at the roots at this point at all, it wont starve at this size just yet (: Keep the mulch back a bit let the stem get some air, dry out a bit if its water logged. If you've got some overcast days or can shade for a day you could spray the foliage with something with low nitrogen high potassium pretty safely just don't drench the root ball.

Pretty much never mulch right up to the stem in young palms you want the old leaf bases to dry out not rot off as that causes some problems.

Are the palms still in their grow bags because that could cause drainage problems too? I don't know what kind of grow bag that is but maybe it hasn't allowed the roots out sufficiently.

This is the strangest thing. I swear there was another thread identicle to this right down to the pictures where the grower had planted the palm pot/growbag and all and was having problems they couldn't work out?

Deja vu? or someones idea of a joke?