The difference in growing palms in California and Florida

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Florida = hot! Southern California = warm, Northern California = miserably cold! Pictures are worth a thousand words.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

This string could probably go into the weather and climate category, but I sure like them thar SoCal ocean temps you posted.

76f at Catalina and 76f Oceanside to 77f San Diego..... That's pretty warm, wetsuit not needed there!

Wasn't it just a couple weeks ago you were telling me that the water temps at natural bridges in Santa Cruz was something like 70f?

Jeff

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

The Norcal temps are not from this year. This year we have much warmer than usual temps, lots of 60's. Twin Lakes beach = 70F at times. No upwelling for most of the Summer, but that is changing now. First storm is on the way, the flow is from the North and should cool the waters significantly.

[Silas_Sancona]

Wow.. mid-upper 70s off so. cal this year.. sounds about perfect. and yes, the 80F+ summer water temps here, especially closer to the coast create a very friendly climate for the tropical stuff. On the other hand, as stated many times here on the forum, forget spectacular Kentias and Rhopalostylis to name a few. Nights stay hot and humid. Have observed 2 am real feel readings of 90-92F a few times this summer here in town.

Another difference brought up a few times is how frost/freeze episodes effect each area differently.. Bay Area/ So Cal ( in General) has the opportunity to gradually cool down in fall giving palms and everything else for that matter the chance to harden up /off before a dreaded possible cold spell. It was 85F when we got into town here last December. Most of my stuff went through a spring-like bolt before some cooler weather headed our way and slowed everything down. Think you guys were observing a frost/freeze at that time.

Back in 2009, it stayed in the 80's/ high 70's right until the freeze hit here. Wasn't surprised at how awful the damage was, except for the complete freeze-out of coconuts mere yards from the beach around the Treasure Island/ Indian Rocks Beach area. Guess water temps plummeting to record lows (low 50's if I remember right) plus the extended episode of cold/wet didn't help. Killed lots of critters in the water.

-Nathan-

[_Keith]

If you had unlimited water, then what could you grow in NorCal?

[mnorell]

Amazing. Normal water temps this time of year are mid-60s in SoCal. This has truly been a warm, warm year for y'all out there compared with the norm. There must be some wonderful fish cruising far north of their normal range this year. Meanwhile we're having a very typical year here with 86F water temps at Key West, which is spot-on average.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Too bad I am not related to the moderator, otherwise this thread could have remained in the main forum.

[Sabal Steve]

Don't feel bad, my Julian thread was immediately kicked here too.

[Dave-Vero]

Some very southern fish, never before seen north of Baja California, were caught off of Newport Beach, about when they had two spectacular episodes of summer surf.

A major factor in Florida's oddness is its sand veneer (much of the state, excluding Miami) and its limestone in Miami, the Keys, and a few Gulf coast areas.

Another, crucial Florida factor is its vulnerability to infrequent but nasty invasions of cold air from Alberta or even Siberia. We are usually recovering from the last freeze, even more than the last hurricane. I haven't checked the history for details, but 1942 seems an extreme outlier in terms of cold.

[Sabal Steve]

Some very southern fish, never before seen north of Baja California, were caught off of Newport Beach, about when they had two spectacular episodes of summer surf.

A major factor in Florida's oddness is its sand veneer (much of the state, excluding Miami) and its limestone in Miami, the Keys, and a few Gulf coast areas.

Another, crucial Florida factor is its vulnerability to infrequent but nasty invasions of cold air from Alberta or even Siberia. We are usually recovering from the last freeze, even more than the last hurricane. I haven't checked the history for details, but 1942 seems an extreme outlier in terms of cold.

Siberia? In Northern Russia?

[PalmatierMeg]

Some very southern fish, never before seen north of Baja California, were caught off of Newport Beach, about when they had two spectacular episodes of summer surf.

A major factor in Florida's oddness is its sand veneer (much of the state, excluding Miami) and its limestone in Miami, the Keys, and a few Gulf coast areas.

Another, crucial Florida factor is its vulnerability to infrequent but nasty invasions of cold air from Alberta or even Siberia. We are usually recovering from the last freeze, even more than the last hurricane. I haven't checked the history for details, but 1942 seems an extreme outlier in terms of cold.

Siberia? In Northern Russia?

Yes, that Siberia. On much of the East Coast the terms "Siberian Express" or "Arctic Express" refer to fast-moving, bitter cold fronts that blast through affected areas with bone-chilling results. FL's worst cold fronts come south from the Arctic. There are no east-west geographical features to block those fronts from the north. If the lows skew NW or NE, the ocean water may moderate temps. Any cold racing down the center of the State and all you can do is pray.

[Bill H2DB]

Some very southern fish, never before seen north of Baja California, were caught off of Newport Beach, about when they had two spectacular episodes of summer surf.

A major factor in Florida's oddness is its sand veneer (much of the state, excluding Miami) and its limestone in Miami, the Keys, and a few Gulf coast areas.

Another, crucial Florida factor is its vulnerability to infrequent but nasty invasions of cold air from Alberta or even Siberia. We are usually recovering from the last freeze, even more than the last hurricane. I haven't checked the history for details, but 1942 seems an extreme outlier in terms of cold.

Good general overview , Dave .

Our local newspaper shows the records for each day as they come along , as I'm sure many other papers do. I have noticed that the year 1940 has many

low temp records , most in winter , but a few throughout the year also .

Here is a LINK to a synopsis of 1940 in the USA , from NWS . Interesting reading ..

http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/069/mwr-069-02-0049.pdf

[Sabal Steve]

Some very southern fish, never before seen north of Baja California, were caught off of Newport Beach, about when they had two spectacular episodes of summer surf.

A major factor in Florida's oddness is its sand veneer (much of the state, excluding Miami) and its limestone in Miami, the Keys, and a few Gulf coast areas.

Another, crucial Florida factor is its vulnerability to infrequent but nasty invasions of cold air from Alberta or even Siberia. We are usually recovering from the last freeze, even more than the last hurricane. I haven't checked the history for details, but 1942 seems an extreme outlier in terms of cold.

Siberia? In Northern Russia?

Yes, that Siberia. On much of the East Coast the terms "Siberian Express" or "Arctic Express" refer to fast-moving, bitter cold fronts that blast through affected areas with bone-chilling results. FL's worst cold fronts come south from the Arctic. There are no east-west geographical features to block those fronts from the north. If the lows skew NW or NE, the ocean water may moderate temps. Any cold racing down the center of the State and all you can do is pray.

That's really interesting, never would have guessed that. I learn about so much more than palms here. They'te predicting a heat wave here - in the 80's! Oh the humanity!

[Moose]

Too bad I am not related to the moderator, otherwise this thread could have remained in the main forum.

I'm "stumped" as to why it was moved

[Dave-Vero]

The Florida Climate Center has some interesting tools for looking at the past. That's where I found that 1942 was cold for Vero Beach, but the year seems to be missing (1940, too) for Miami Beach. The Fort Pierce station is ancient, going back to 1901. It doesn't seem entirely consistent with the shorter-record Palm Beach International Airport, but the number of days below 32º F (freezing) is interesting...the bad winter of 2010 really stands out. Nothing else like it on record.

The shape of Florida enhances cold air that comes from the right direction. The very dry air can generate cold land breezes that move toward both the Atlantic and Gulf coasts! Most of the time, the direction of the wind is skewed just enough that the Gulf or the Atlantic escapes without freezing. But the worst case scenarios are awful. The official record low in my town since 1942 is 23º F. In 2010, we had 15 days with temperatures freezing or below. Amazingly, I lost only one palm.

Some of the cold really does come all the way from Siberia. That extremely cold air starts out holding very little moisture because it's cold. As it warms and moves south, it doesn't gain much, so we temporarily become a cold desert, somewhat the way Los Angeles and Portland can briefly become hot deserts in summer with wind descending from the mountains. In those cases, the air loses its moisture on the east side of the mountains (summer monsoon rain in Bend!) then descends, dry (fire weather in the Oregon coast range).

[jeevesjank]

Central/South Florida are just massive closer to a true tropical climate than California is. California is cool and dry and Florida is hot and wet. Pick your poison.

[bubba]

My climate review shows Southern California suffers from the same Artic or Siberian Express weather patterns that result in very low minimum temperatures that both Florida and Texas experience. I do not understand why Florida's experience with this occurrence should be viewed as shocking. To the contrary, San Diego has suffered the same Siberian Express as Florida in 1913, 1932, 1937, 1949, 1950, 1963, 1978, 1986, 1990, 1998, 2007...

It is interesting to note that San Diego's lowest reported temperature in Jan. 1913 was 25 F. when the temperature reading at the Horton Plaza in downtown San Diego and not far from the coast was confirmed at 21 F. These cold events are much more protracted and lengthier than Florida. Also, notwithstanding the fact that San Diego weather records appear to report never experiencing snow, large numbers of anecdotal accounts fly in the face of this apparent claim. If these cold temperatures do not emanate from the Artic or Siberia, do they come from Northern Mexico?