Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island

[Cluster]

Hello everyone once again:),

It has been a while since I updated this thread! I was only gone for some days from palmtalk (visited Madrid!) and a lot of replies suddenly. 

Before I continue let me just address a Major concern I pointed out around this time last year but did not answer. I am convinced the tallest coconut in the Marina might be facing some space issues which leads to lack of nutrients, let me just show you how the coconut palm looked in 2014 when I was starting this hobby and knew not much the coconut I am talking about is the tallest one (middle) one:

 

Now look how it looked like in August 2k17:\ :

As you can see its fronds are very short now and the right one is the tallest now due to that, it has been showing these fronds the last 2 years. I am convinced it can't get enough "food" to support its size anymore in such confined space, a lot of concrete around.

Just to finish the summary of last year, they trimmed all the coconuts once again, I was not able to see them before the big trim

I will be back on the island on the 27th, hope to see them in better state, hopefully before another big trim. 

 

[Cluster]

10 hours ago, bubba said:

Rolling through this post, I am staggered by the natural beauty of this island. What a gem!

Hello Keith,

I am glad you enjoyed! Sometimes I am hiking around the island so it is nice to share some photos along with the palms as people seem interested. 

Regards,

Pedro

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Cluster

[Cluster]

8 hours ago, Alberto said:

Olá Pedro. Tudo bem ?

I totally missed this thread because coconuts aren´t palms I can grow, but now I saw the topic ''Coconuts on Madeira'' I thought it must be yours..... and a very long thread. It was a pleasure to have meet you and the friendly people in Portugal a year ago. I hope your coconuts  and ''juçara'' palm will grow fine for you. Are there photos of your garden in the thread ?

Olá Alberto,

It was indeed very nice to meet all of you, it was such a cool day with all the talk and travelling, I hope to see you guys again here or Brazil, perhaps on Madeira this time;) 

I have no photos here of our garden, I believe, as we do not have many exotics (and knew nothing back then, was 15 or so, or I would have tried different palms/layouts), we have a cidp, washies a royal palm and now bananas and your Juçara (Euterpe Edulis). We will stay in touch, send my regards to all of them!

PS: I will a post about your Juçara here when I get on the island later this week, epic tale:).

Regards,

Pedro

Edited July 24, 2017 by Cluster

[Cluster]

12 hours ago, Artur-291 said:

Hi all! I'm new to this forum and decided to sign up after quickly looking at this thread.

Just to let you know that coconut palms fruit just fine in Madeira. These photos are from last week, south west coast of the island.

 

Hello Artur and welcome to palmtalk and what a welcome!

Wow wow wow! Which one is it, where is it located I need to see it when I go there later this week, I have been hunting for almost 3 years now but my time on the island is limited! Guys this is it, besides showing you coconuts, this has been my first priority to see and report a properly developed coconut fruit and now it appears! I can't still believe it, is this real?

Please tell us more:)

Regards,

Pedro

Edited July 24, 2017 by Cluster

[Cluster]

29 minutes ago, Cluster said:

 

Now look how it looked like in August 2k17:\ :

 

I meant August 2k16 here, sorry!

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Cluster

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Unless they stop trimming the marina coconut palms or at the very least stop OVER TRIMMING them, they will eventually kill them!  I am not a big fan of trimming palms to begin with.  They look so much better when they have a full round crown of leaves, but to habitually over trim palms, especially palms that are self shedding like coconut palms is just inexcusable!

John

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

16 hours ago, Artur-291 said:

Hi all! I'm new to this forum and decided to sign up after quickly looking at this thread.

Just to let you know that coconut palms fruit just fine in Madeira. These photos are from last week, south west coast of the island.

It's nice to see some fruiting coconut palms there.  I hope they let the nuts mature and don't cut them off prematurely.

John

[Artur-291]

Hi @Cluster, thanks, this is one of the coconut palms in a private house in the village of Paúl do Mar, south west coast.

[Cluster]

50 minutes ago, Artur-291 said:

Hi @Cluster, thanks, this is one of the coconut palms in a private house in the village of Paúl do Mar, south west coast.

Hello again, so you are speaking about these right?:

I have been following them for some years now, the above pictures are from August 2k16.

If these are the coconuts you are talking about I am sure they end up trimming them at some point as you can see in my pictures, removing the fruits as well. Anyway it is nice to know they can indeed develop as I had never been able to report such advanced ones before:)!

For people not familiar with this zone on Madeira Island, Paul do Mar is among the warmest and sunniest places there. There are no official weather stations in Paul do Mar but the big cliffs behind (which will undoubtedly warm up all the area) and the amount of sun that zones has,  certainly surpasses the warmest official weather station (Lugar de Baixo). 

The zone:

 

To finish, Paul do Mar private coconuts are the ones I had predicted would stand the best chances as they are fed and always looked 100% healthy regardless of the time of the year, alas they still get trimmed. Hopefully I will be able to see them untrimmed when I arrive there, thanks a lot. I am convinced that Funchal and other not as warm places as Paul do Mar can manage this feat as well, since we have seen them getting to a decent size in the marina before the big haircut hits them=)

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Cluster

[SouthSeaNate]

Great to see Coconuts fruiting in Madeira

[Cluster]

On 7/29/2017, 12:41:34, SouthSeaNate said:

Great to see Coconuts fruiting in Madeira

Thanks Nathan, I want to see if I can get to those before they are trimmed or something (we never know here!).

 

There are also bad news as the coconut that I have been pointing out for sometime now was cut, probably was looking too ugly (with the tiny fronds). It grew very well and quite tall (it was the tallest there I am bad at distances but I would say 10 meters/30 ft to the highest frond) for a number of years and then the nutrients/water were not enough. I am no expert but I still have the same theory, it grew too big for its own space, there is only concrete around and below seems to be filled with big basaltic rocks (one can notice this when looking at the marina water) that no palm could ever absorb.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Cluster

[SouthSeaNate]

On 30 July 2017, Cluster said:

Thanks Nathan, I want to see if I can get to those before they are trimmed or something (we never know here!).

 

There are also bad news as the coconut that I have been pointing out for sometime now was cut, probably was looking too ugly (with the tiny fronds). It grew very well and quite tall (it was the tallest there I am bad at distances but I would say 10 meters/30 ft to the highest frond) for a number of years and then the nutrients/water were not enough. I am no expert but I still have the same theory, it grew too big for its own space, there is only concrete around and below seems to be filled with big basaltic rocks (one can notice this when looking at the marina water) that no palm could ever absorb.

Yes it will be great id you can stop them from removing the juvenile fruits to see if they can properly mature

That is a shame about them chopping down that palm, if they stopped over pruning them then it wouldn't have became so stunted IMO...

[Cluster]

On 7/31/2017, 9:25:30, SouthSeaNate said:

Yes it will be great id you can stop them from removing the juvenile fruits to see if they can properly mature

That is a shame about them chopping down that palm, if they stopped over pruning them then it wouldn't have became so stunted IMO...

I think they are most likely viable in two or 3 months, the experts will know better=). By the shape of the nuts it seems we are dealing with a tall or hybrid palm, will leave the experts (again!) to comment on it. It is good they are a pair of coconut palms so that they can be pollinated. Many of the coconuts on the island are lonely and are not dwarf (self pollinating), actually besides the Marina dwarf coconut which I will show later, there is not a single one I know for sure to be dwarf.

[Cluster]

Hello again, here goes some updates for some coconuts harder to report (being further away from Funchal):

The Inn&Art coconuts (or is it a coconut I am not sure the small one is a coconut, if it is it is very different form any coco I have seen with my own eyes before):

 

Is this one really a coco its trunk is even thinner than the dwarf coconut from the Marina?

 

Anyway, they are trimmed as expected.

 

Another one I have not updated for sometime now, this lonely one is in Santa Cruz, near the airport, the easternmost coconut from the island:

 

 

 

And that is all for now folks!

[SouthSeaNate]

Nice  The "coconut" with the thin trunk is a Kentia, they are very good coconut look-a-likes

[Getta Robo]

You're once more super helpful to all of us Cluster!

Much obliged for all of your photographs and work!

[Cluster]

On 8/3/2017, 11:11:02, SouthSeaNate said:

Nice  The "coconut" with the thin trunk is a Kentia, they are very good coconut look-a-likes

You are right! I am used to see Kentias with their fronds closed did not even realize it was one

On 8/7/2017, 3:58:31, Getta Robo said:

You're once more super helpful to all of us Cluster!

Much obliged for all of your photographs and work!

Thank you, I will keep updating and show news:)

[Cluster]

Here are some updates from Jardim Almirante Reis:

Not much to comment here, it is still lacking nutrients and still trimmed it displays some deficiency, small leaves. On the right side you can also see part of the trimming of the next coco.

This one has always seem different from the cocos that are in the Marina. It seems to have stronger leaves and to my eye bigger than the Marina ones. It is trimmed (though you can only see part of it in this picture and the previous one). Last year the fires on Madeira Island were devastating, this coco had two leaves partially burned, no damage is visible this year, though. The fires were in the mountains around 600m/2000ft and were able to come downtown Funchal for the first time ever (that I recall at least), this coconut is near the sea and still got struck. 

[Cluster]

Lets see the good old Marina coconuts now:

First Row:

 

All of them are trimmed but looking ok nonetheless, in my opinion the dwarf looks the best as always! Maybe since its leaves are more curvy it does not show the trimming as much and makes her look the best, you be the judge.

 

I noticed that the dwarf grew a lot since my last visit

 

You can clearly see the pencil coconut nurturing many small coconuts

 

More closely:

 

The dwarf also has them:

There is a clear difference in the coconuts from the dwarf, at least at this age they have a deeper green color and are rounder and shiny.

 

Middle row:

lots of trimming here, I think space might become an issue too, we will see.

 

Last row:

I had never seen the smallest coconut of the Marina as trimmed:(! (Sorry for the out of focus here). How can a coconut grow with such conditions.. uff

 

R.I.P, this was the biggest coconut from the Marina and as I said before it had small leaves and a big trim for 2 years now or something like that. I spoke with a woman that works there and she said they cut it as it was "old and looking sick".

 

So this is the tallest Marina coconut now, it has big fronds and despite the obvious trim it looks decent. I am not sure I have seen this one fruiting, but since they end up trimming the inflorescence most likely it might be harder ti spot it. Additionally it is further away from the other coconuts for pollination to occur. I wonder if its size will be a problem at some point as I suspect it was from the dead one.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

Olá Cluster !

It's nice to see you back ! I'm so glad that you keep taking photos of the madeiran cocos just for us ! I hope you enjoy your stay on this beautiful island ! I miss it so much ! Hopefully, I might go there next year. 

I'm also thrilled that the cocos are still having fruits, although they're still over-trimmed. If they would have been well cared I'm sure they would have produced mature fruits.

I'm also sad about the dead cocos of the marina, I already knew it had been removed, but it's still a shame. 

Anyway, I hope you will show us more photos of the island and also some tropical palms !

Thank you !

[SouthSeaNate]

Great photos

Such a shame about the one they cut down, but at least the others still look good, though they would look even better without their drastic trimming...

The council here do the same, they prune all public planted palms a couple of times a year & chop off nearly all the fronds  I can understand them doing it with the Washingtonias as they drop lots of messy seeds, but they do it with all the palms & it looks awful...

[Cluster]

On 8/13/2017, 10:23:59, Pargomad said:

Olá Cluster !

It's nice to see you back ! I'm so glad that you keep taking photos of the madeiran cocos just for us ! I hope you enjoy your stay on this beautiful island ! I miss it so much ! Hopefully, I might go there next year. 

I'm also thrilled that the cocos are still having fruits, although they're still over-trimmed. If they would have been well cared I'm sure they would have produced mature fruits.

I'm also sad about the dead cocos of the marina, I already knew it had been removed, but it's still a shame. 

Anyway, I hope you will show us more photos of the island and also some tropical palms !

Thank you !

Olá!

I hope you enjoy it next year, it is a pleasure to keep you guys up to date and to share a bit of Madeira with community.

The coconuts are removed along with the fronds so you will never see a fully mature coconut from the Marina, unless they stop removing them.

The Marina big coconut was amazing if you looked at my oldest picture where I compare it against the other one (that is now the current tallest of the Marina), but got a nutritional deficiency for some years now and they decided to remove it. As I said before, it probably reached its maximum size around that concrete.

Photos of the island incoming.

On 8/14/2017, 8:54:55, SouthSeaNate said:

Great photos

Such a shame about the one they cut down, but at least the others still look good, though they would look even better without their drastic trimming...

The council here do the same, they prune all public planted palms a couple of times a year & chop off nearly all the fronds  I can understand them doing it with the Washingtonias as they drop lots of messy seeds, but they do it with all the palms & it looks awful...

Thank you!

I agree with you, here nothing survives the massive trimming from CIDP to Cocos. The CIDP here are often in a V shape, that is how severe the trimming is.

 

[Cluster]

Just some photos of the island from the hikes and tours I did in between the beach and cocos .

Last year:

 

And this year thus far:

 

Mostly using my camera but also smartphone with the last.

 

[SouthSeaNate]

Beautiful photos, Madeira reminds me so much of Hawaii...

[Sandy Loam]

Madeira is truly beautiful indeed! 

There are some beautiful beach/coastal photos in there too, but I was under the impression that Madeira's beaches are supposed to be mostly craggy and not very sandy.

Madeira (or at least Funchal) appears to have a climate where coconut palm trees thrive.  I am a bit surprised because Madeira isn't supposed to be as warm in winter as the nearby Canary Islands, and yet the Canary Islands are just barely within a climate appropriate for coconuts, aren't they?  Also, if you travelled directly east from Madeira to Morocco, you wouldn't be able to grow coconuts at that location, I assume.

[lahuasteca]

I think Madeira is much more humid with more precipitation than either Morocco or the Canary Islands.

[Cluster]

On 8/20/2017, 2:51:46, Sandy Loam said:

Madeira is truly beautiful indeed! 

There are some beautiful beach/coastal photos in there too, but I was under the impression that Madeira's beaches are supposed to be mostly craggy and not very sandy.

Madeira (or at least Funchal) appears to have a climate where coconut palm trees thrive.  I am a bit surprised because Madeira isn't supposed to be as warm in winter as the nearby Canary Islands, and yet the Canary Islands are just barely within a climate appropriate for coconuts, aren't they?  Also, if you travelled directly east from Madeira to Morocco, you wouldn't be able to grow coconuts at that location, I assume.

Hello Sandy,

You are right when you say most of the beaches are craggy, there are a few gems with thin sand to be found, though!, from the net:

 

Regarding the temperature, you are also right that Canary Islands are a bit warmer overall, but coconuts are hardy there and it seems here too. If I am not mistaken they can grow Lipstick, Euterpe Oleracea, breadfruit and maybe even mangosteen (though Unfortunately I have only read about this once, wish more Spanish people would comment!). It is important to know Madeira has many microclimates and the warmest ones are warmer than the north coast of the Canary Islands.

Marrocos has cooler waters and is less affected by the gulf stream, Madeira is a zone 12 in many coastal areas. Coastal Marrocos winter is significantly cooler than Madeira both in Max and min temperatures, it is also more affected by cold events. 

 

[Cluster]

More updates, this time Madalena do Mar zone in the southwest.

First group:

Seems this coconut has more room to grow than before, but now they planted a cidp in the middle... there is also some plant around the coconut, it is trimmed.

At her side there we have the other:

 

Trimmed as well.

 

 

Both:

 

If something these 2 seem to need more water, they look very wild with the exception to the trimming treatment

 

Next group:

Slightly trimmed but has shown good growth since I saw her last time.

 

And the second coconut of this group:

 

This coconut is weird, it is a slow one but there is more...the leaves are very short but wide and the leaflets are wide, very close to each other. It is also forming what appears to be a fat trunk...Could this be a Fiji Dwarf guys? This coco really makes me curious, before this age I thought it was just a young coconut doing her thing but now it resembles what I have learned on palmtalk regarding Fiji Dwarfs. The Fiji Dwarf(Niu Leka) is so rare that I doubt it would show up here, but this one looks like it?

 

Bonus: Some pictures I took with my smartphone from the southwest coast while photographing the cocos I hope you enjoy this report!

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Cluster

[Cluster]

My friends on palmtalk, the following is the best news I have had since I started this hobby which became a passion! Of course I am talking about the cocos from Paul do Mar, the first ones that we have reported here to go till the end, but first things first. 

When I arrived to the private house some days ago I saw the cocos right away, the owners were there away on their way out. I asked them if they would mind I took some photos and told them they are the first ones to get coconuts on the island, they were surprised! In fact they did not even know they had coconuts hanging there, apparently the gardener did not warn them. Unfortunately we only talked for 20 seconds as they were in rush and I did not have time to ask them to ask the gardener not to trim fronds and inflorescences and so on:). They did let me take the photos and let the garden opened for me after they were gone, very friendly people!

Without further due the Paul do Mar coconuts, the first ones to settle once and for all the question of whether Madeira Islands (32.63-33.x(Porto Santo island)) could have fruiting coconuts.

Right coconut:

http://i.imgur.com/GWzt9oG.jpg

 

Left coconut:

 

 

The two new small stars:

They were bigger than the pictures looks like. I am still new to coconut varieties but these look like tall like coconuts they were very big, don't look like something out of a Malayan Dwarf, but then again I have never seem mature Malayan Dwarf coconuts in person on a tree. I would say a few weeks and these are viable nuts, they are browning already and look more than healthy and full size, correct me if I am wrong:)

What more can I say, the coconuts are both trimmed but they are watered and well taken care of overall. If I end up talking with them again I would advise them to let the cocos do their thing. Since these cocos might not be Dwarfs, they really depend on each other for pollination, if they could help them with pollination and not trim the fronds and inflorescences I see no reason for them to have plenty more coconuts, can only guess how far one can go from now on!

Do notice that Paul do Mar as all the southwest coast has very big cliffs behind as I said it before, this gives these regions further heat. These warmer zones have no weather station, Lugar de Baixo in Ponta do Sol is the closest to replicate this (but still not as warm) which is the warmest official station of Madeira island.

Is the island warm enough to sprout the mature coconuts? I wonder if a steady 25C/77F+ and around 20C/68 f lows for two months is enough.

I leave you with a tall waterfall I found on Paul do Mar while documenting the coconuts:

 

I hope you guys enjoy, I am pretty excited myself as a Kid that just got a new Toy :D, feel free to comment and ask questions!

 

 

[Pargomad]

Wow, I'm so happy ! I hope you will convince the owners not to trimm them. By the way, your photos look amazing !

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

Those lasts pics look MUCH better.  I hope you can get everyone there to stop butchering these would be gorgeous palms!  

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

On 20/8/2017 3:51:46, Sandy Loam said:

Madeira is truly beautiful indeed! 

There are some beautiful beach/coastal photos in there too, but I was under the impression that Madeira's beaches are supposed to be mostly craggy and not very sandy.

Madeira (or at least Funchal) appears to have a climate where coconut palm trees thrive.  I am a bit surprised because Madeira isn't supposed to be as warm in winter as the nearby Canary Islands, and yet the Canary Islands are just barely within a climate appropriate for coconuts, aren't they?  Also, if you travelled directly east from Madeira to Morocco, you wouldn't be able to grow coconuts at that location, I assume.

The Canaries are significantly warmer. The highest coconuts on the Canaries grows at 350-360m of altitude.

That's why the Canaries have massive coconuts and most of them produce mature fruits every year. There are thousands and thousands of coconuts across the Canary Islands. For example Santa Cruz de Tenerife, in the north of Tenerife, is 2ºC warmer than the warmest spot of Madeira (Funchal). 

 

 

On 22/8/2017 3:57:19, Cluster said:

Hello Sandy,

You are right when you say most of the beaches are craggy, there are a few gems with thin sand to be found, though!, from the net:

 

Regarding the temperature, you are also right that Canary Islands are a bit warmer overall, but coconuts are hardy there and it seems here too. If I am not mistaken they can grow Lipstick, Euterpe Oleracea, breadfruit and maybe even mangosteen (though Unfortunately I have only read about this once, wish more Spanish people would comment!). It is important to know Madeira has many microclimates and the warmest ones are warmer than the north coast of the Canary Islands.

Marrocos has cooler waters and is less affected by the gulf stream, Madeira is a zone 12 in many coastal areas. Coastal Marrocos winter is significantly cooler than Madeira both in Max and min temperatures, it is also more affected by cold events. 

 

 

I'm sorry to contradict you this time Cluster, but this is not true. The Canaries are significantly warmer, not just a bit.

- The warmest place on Madeira is the city of Funchal, at least the only one with data which can be proven, whilst in the north of the Canary Islands, you can find Santa Cruz de Tenerife with a mean annual temp of 21.5ºC, while Funchal is 19.6ºC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funchal#Climate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Cruz_de_Tenerife#Climate

Suppositions shouldn't be taken in account. For example I do think that Funchal is the warmest spot of the island: it is densely populated so that makes an UHI on it, it's down from a hill which can protect it from northerly Atlantic winds, in fact we can see that the best coconuts are in Funchal town.

For the Canaries, the warmest official station remains close to 22ºC year round, but if we take suppositions too, places near Maspalomas or the south of Tenerife can reach an annual temp close to 23ºC as I've readed on Spanish gardening forums, just as you think that Madeira can have 20ºC means on the warmest spots, as well as I think that it can be possible those almost 23ºC in the Canaries because of the warmer winds and ocean currents plus looking at the enormous coconuts which give big mature cocos year by year. But after all, both are suppositions, on Canaries and Madeira. So they shouldn't be taken in consideration. 

 

I guess that you were probably mentioning that for the Puerto de la Cruz climate, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_de_la_Cruz#Climate but I noticed that it's not a trustworthy climate data, as the source is climate-data, an amateur website which doesn't provide the factual source of their data, so it's not useful at all.

Still, even taking that data, Puerto de la Cruz is slightly warmer than the warmest spot on Madeira (Funchal). The additional winter warmth is also a bit bigger. 

 

Nice photos btw 

 

Talking about trims, they also get brutal trims in the Canaries too...

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Alicante

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

Some random pics which I found on the internet about coconuts in the Canaries. Lanzarote, Tenerife and Gran Canaria below:

(a couple of pics are from La Palma and Fuerteventura islands too)

The Canaries have also many beaches with volcanic black sand, others with some strange sand mixed with small rocks but mostly are dunes. Many of Canarian beaches in fact resemble tropical ones with coconuts, golden sand and crystal clear water. Although those pics focus on the coconuts, not the beaches!

 

 

 

Flowering season:

 

As well as many giant Caribbean looking coconuts:

 

Cluster buddy, not only looking at the climate tables, but also graphically we can see that the Canaries are considerably warmer (although maybe when you said a bit warmer you were referring just to the north of Tenerife/Puerto de la Cruz?). Btw, it is normal to be warmer for the stronger sun and the lower latitude !

And yes, the Canaries grow euterpes, mangosteen, as well as they grow guanabanas (breadfruit), pineapples, and lots of other tropical fruits and palms. 

 

I also found this pic on the Internet, it's called "Tenerife Beach Sunset" in lots of pages related to Tenerife, I did a search about it and it appears on lots of websites about Tenerife hotels/beaches or Tourism websites use it for referencing to Tenerife, mostly on Costa Adeje and nearby (south of Tenerife island)

I can't prove if it's factual 100% as I never found this place, although there is no street view for the majority of the coasts of Tenerife so I don't know.

http://www.flamingosuite.com/images/slider1/Beach-sunset-Tenerife.jpg

Edited August 31, 2017 by Alicante

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

On 28/8/2017 1:40:21, Cluster said:

My friends on palmtalk, the following is the best news I have had since I started this hobby which became a passion! Of course I am talking about the cocos from Paul do Mar, the first ones that we have reported here to go till the end, but first things first. 

When I arrived to the private house some days ago I saw the cocos right away, the owners were there away on their way out. I asked them if they would mind I took some photos and told them they are the first ones to get coconuts on the island, they were surprised! In fact they did not even know they had coconuts hanging there, apparently the gardener did not warn them. Unfortunately we only talked for 20 seconds as they were in rush and I did not have time to ask them to ask the gardener not to trim fronds and inflorescences and so on:). They did let me take the photos and let the garden opened for me after they were gone, very friendly people!

Without further due the Paul do Mar coconuts, the first ones to settle once and for all the question of whether Madeira Islands (32.63-33.x(Porto Santo island)) could have fruiting coconuts.

Right coconut:

 

They were bigger than the pictures looks like. I am still new to coconut varieties but these look like tall like coconuts they were very big, don't look like something out of a Malayan Dwarf, but then again I have never seem mature Malayan Dwarf coconuts in person on a tree. I would say a few weeks and these are viable nuts, they are browning already and look more than healthy and full size, correct me if I am wrong:)

What more can I say, the coconuts are both trimmed but they are watered and well taken care of overall. If I end up talking with them again I would advise them to let the cocos do their thing. Since these cocos might not be Dwarfs, they really depend on each other for pollination, if they could help them with pollination and not trim the fronds and inflorescences I see no reason for them to have plenty more coconuts, can only guess how far one can go from now on!

Do notice that Paul do Mar as all the southwest coast has very big cliffs behind as I said it before, this gives these regions further heat. These warmer zones have no weather station, Lugar de Baixo in Ponta do Sol is the closest to replicate this (but still not as warm) which is the warmest official station of Madeira island.

Is the island warm enough to sprout the mature coconuts? I wonder if a steady 25C/77F+ and around 20C/68 f lows for two months is enough.

I leave you with a tall waterfall I found on Paul do Mar while documenting the coconuts:

 

 

I hope you guys enjoy, I am pretty excited myself as a Kid that just got a new Toy :D, feel free to comment and ask questions!

 

 

(i'm not quoting all of the pics to not make this page even longer!)

Amazing pics! Now those look very beautiful and cared of. 

 

About the Ponta do Sol station, do you have any link to check it? I've seen that in IPMA, the only official station in Madeira is Funchal. In the Portuguese wiki website it appears some info from the city hall of Ponta do Sol but it says that the annual mean temp is 19.4ºC, so it's 0.2ºC cooler than in Funchal.

And about the sprouting, I don't know if it's possible or not. In the northernmost island of the Canaries (Caleta de Sebo) which has also a completely desertic climate, there are various coconuts grown up from sprouts (I posted the pics like 2 years ago in this same thread!) and now they even produce coconuts. Although the difference is on the summer, that place has pretty warmer summers, with 27-28ºC highs during 3 months so I don't know.

Still, you know, who doesn't try, doesn't win.  

[Cluster]

Hello Adam, that is a lot to digest lol! I will try to answer buddy.

If you go to page 6 that is where I got the information from, not sure if accurate but that is the only info we got back then which was 0.2 warmer than Funchal. Lugar de Baixo station which is part of Ponta do Sol (but not the center itself) is the warmest weather station we have. However, IPMA is a mess when it comes to get data and it is hard to get the normals for that station. So how do I know it is warmer, easy, If you go to the climate atlas IPMA and AEMET conjured, you can easily find the warmest stations for each island http://www.aemet.es/documentos/es/conocermas/publicaciones/2Atlas_climatologico/Atlas_Clima_Macaronesia___Baja.pdf

As you can see back then Santa Cruz was the warmest at 21.2 and Fuerteventura Airport (east coast) was 20.4, Funchal 19 and Lugar do Baixo 19.7. That is only 1.5 less than Santa Cruz and 0.7 less than Fuerteventura. I do not know if any of these stations changed meanwhile, but that is the only official data we have that compared them directly. 

Just for curiosity this is what a member from our meteo forums gathered from the IPMA Lugar de Baixo values for the year 2016:

Also another thing I said in the past:

"

I show you this thesis(http://digituma.uma.pt/bitstream/10400.13/41/1/DoutoramentoJ.%20Carlos%20Magro%20Esteves.pdf) table with official data from IPMA where you can see the Funchal station against Ponta do Sol in a period of 4 years:

 

 

"

It is a warm station for sure if you want to see the standard average temperature go to the Anual and do (Max + Min)/2. The reason why it is warmer than Funchal station is due to the cliffs that make southwest coast warmer overall. Madalena do Mar, Jardim do Mar and Paul do Mar (where these mature coconut fruits were shot) are believed to be warmer than Lugar de Baixo as they have way higher cliffs while being close to the sea at the sametime and the banana from Madalena do Mar has the reputation as the best banana from the island. So in my opinion they are pretty similar to the point a good year in Lugar de Baixo will be warmer than a bad year in Santa Cruz. We are debating semantics here for me 1.5 C is just a bit warmer:). The Canaries are also not all as warm as Santa Cruz and I was talking about all the islands not just the warmest. Fuerteventura has good coconuts around all the island despite being cooler than Santa Cruz. 

Anyway some of the coconuts from the Canaries you showed are amazing, still some of them are trimmed, they would look better untrimmed in my opinion. I think in the Canaries they still treat them better and have way more passion for cocos than the people on Madeira. Here they cut the fruits and the fronds after a while, nothing ever gets to fruit (they don't care or even know it is a coconut they are trimming, they are just there to cut all the palms, nice public service...). It is not just the climate of the Canaries that is better for cocos, it is also the people here that butcher all the coco palms and palms overall. The cocos form Paul do Mar are also very trimmed, but fortunately they did not cut the inflorescence, the owners did not know they had coconuts, when I met them. if I had more time I would have advised more caution, that is if if they want an even healthier palm and cocos:). Still there are only those two coconuts in Paul do Mar so you can imagine it is hard for pollination. The highest elevation coconut I know grows at 200 meter altitude and is doing pretty well, they can probably go higher but would probably look bad at some point, if I get the chance I will take a picture.

Anyway nice photos from the canary island coconuts and beaches, we have very few here with sand so I doubt they want to plant cocos there!

 

[Cluster]

Oh by the way Adam, I would say many of those beaches are in fact tropical in terms of climates (tropical with dry season) so they are in fact tropical beaches:D. Have you visited the Canary Islands?

 

[pin38]

I sense a little Portugal-Spain rivalry going on here

[Cluster]

2 hours ago, pin38 said:

I sense a little Portugal-Spain rivalry going on here

Lol you are probably not talking about me  I love the Canary Islands. I do believe they share similar climates, however, and if I had space I would also try other tropical species like Theobroma Cacao, breadfruit etc:). The Azores for example I find their climate more different than Madeira, than Madeira is from the  Canary Islands.

Adam I forgot to mention, there is another IPMA station on Funchal called Funchal/Lido, that one is warmer than the old one as it is in a much better spot, but I am not sure it is warmer than Lugar de Baixo station. In order to get warmer weather stations than Lugar de Baixo you would need to place them in the zones I told you before, Madalena do Mar, Paul do Mar and Jardim do Mar oh and Fajã dos Padres which I forgot before, these are the zones where the best tropical fruit comes from.

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Cluster

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

5 hours ago, Cluster said:

Hello Adam, that is a lot to digest lol! I will try to answer buddy.

If you go to page 6 that is where I got the information from, not sure if accurate but that is the only info we got back then which was 0.2 warmer than Funchal. Lugar de Baixo station which is part of Ponta do Sol (but not the center itself) is the warmest weather station we have. However, IPMA is a mess when it comes to get data and it is hard to get the normals for that station. So how do I know it is warmer, easy, If you go to the climate atlas IPMA and AEMET conjured, you can easily find the warmest stations for each island http://www.aemet.es/documentos/es/conocermas/publicaciones/2Atlas_climatologico/Atlas_Clima_Macaronesia___Baja.pdf

As you can see back then Santa Cruz was the warmest at 21.2 and Fuerteventura Airport (east coast) was 20.4, Funchal 19 and Lugar do Baixo 19.7. That is only 1.5 less than Santa Cruz and 0.7 less than Fuerteventura. I do not know if any of these stations changed meanwhile, but that is the only official data we have that compared them directly. 

Just for curiosity this is what a member from our meteo forums gathered from the IPMA Lugar de Baixo values for the year 2016:

Also another thing I said in the past:

"

I show you this thesis(http://digituma.uma.pt/bitstream/10400.13/41/1/DoutoramentoJ.%20Carlos%20Magro%20Esteves.pdf) table with official data from IPMA where you can see the Funchal station against Ponta do Sol in a period of 4 years:

 

 

"

It is a warm station for sure if you want to see the standard average temperature go to the Anual and do (Max + Min)/2. The reason why it is warmer than Funchal station is due to the cliffs that make southwest coast warmer overall. Madalena do Mar, Jardim do Mar and Paul do Mar (where these mature coconut fruits were shot) are believed to be warmer than Lugar de Baixo as they have way higher cliffs while being close to the sea at the sametime and the banana from Madalena do Mar has the reputation as the best banana from the island. So in my opinion they are pretty similar to the point a good year in Lugar de Baixo will be warmer than a bad year in Santa Cruz. We are debating semantics here for me 1.5 C is just a bit warmer:). The Canaries are also not all as warm as Santa Cruz and I was talking about all the islands not just the warmest. Fuerteventura has good coconuts around all the island despite being cooler than Santa Cruz. 

Anyway some of the coconuts from the Canaries you showed are amazing, still some of them are trimmed, they would look better untrimmed in my opinion. I think in the Canaries they still treat them better and have way more passion for cocos than the people on Madeira. Here they cut the fruits and the fronds after a while, nothing ever gets to fruit (they don't care or even know it is a coconut they are trimming, they are just there to cut all the palms, nice public service...). It is not just the climate of the Canaries that is better for cocos, it is also the people here that butcher all the coco palms and palms overall. The cocos form Paul do Mar are also very trimmed, but fortunately they did not cut the inflorescence, the owners did not know they had coconuts, when I met them. if I had more time I would have advised more caution, that is if if they want an even healthier palm and cocos:). Still there are only those two coconuts in Paul do Mar so you can imagine it is hard for pollination. The highest elevation coconut I know grows at 200 meter altitude and is doing pretty well, they can probably go higher but would probably look bad at some point, if I get the chance I will take a picture.

Anyway nice photos from the canary island coconuts and beaches, we have very few here with sand so I doubt they want to plant cocos there!

 

Well, i'll try to answer in parts.

- I know, but that was old data, btw. Nowadays in the Canaries the mean temps are:

 

21.5ºC Santa Cruz (north of the islands) 

21.4ºC Tenerife South airport 

21.2ºC Hierro airport (warmest winters, 18.8ºC mean in January) 

21.1ºC Gran Canaria airport

21.1ºC Fuerteventura airport

21.1ºC Lanzarote airport (lol, 3 stations with the exact temperature!)

20.8ºC La Palma airport

Islands with no official stations but estimations: Coastal Gomera, probably some 21-21.2ºC. Caleta de Sebo some 21ºC too.

And about Puerto de la Cruz (northernmost point of Tenerife) the annual temp is probably bordering 21ºC too, 20.8ºC I would say. 

 

Although the warmest points (unfortunately) haven't got climate stations. The south coast of Tenerife can easily surpass 22ºC and the south of Gran Canaria can maybe even be close to 23ºC. I mean, I have no proofs ok, but it has been talked on other forums and we can find this:

 

Typical "Caribbean" inflorescence! 

About the 4 years of data, yes and no. What I want to mean? 4 years of data is a short time to take some means of. For example, I've been watching the climate of some AEMET observatory stations since this Canarian coconut passion began on me back to 2011 and Maspalomas and Mogán Port (in fact exactly where those 3 pics from above are taken from) are always the warmest spots on the Canaries from November to May, unless on some few days with the Calima which can make warmer some inland spots.

http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=coo&l=C639M&w=2&datos=img

http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=coo&l=C629X&w=2&datos=img

Yes Cluster, indeed, as you say, they are 100% tropical wet and dry climates and beaches! In fact most of the Canarian coast have this climate as they achieve the requeriment (18ºC mean in the coldest month: meets the requirements of a Tropical climate according to Köppen) and most of the Canarian coast have +18ºC means in the coldest month. 

 

Well, what I was saying about. In the period 2012-2016 (5 winters) I took this data from AEMET registers:

- Mean average of 22.76ºC in Mogán port - We can say 22.8

- Mean average of 22.68ºC in Maspalomas (C. Insular) - We can say 22.7

 

I just checked the higest Canarian coconut, it is placed on the island of Gran Canaria and it looks pretty well. It's at about 370m of altitude! 

Some Canarian guanabana (they grow even a bit inland, this one is from the north if I don't remember bad)

Coconut planted from a seedling in the west of Tenerife (probably the harshest climate on the islands) this pic has some years, about 3 years ago you could see the trunk already, this pic was posted by some British user living in Eastern Tenerife in another forum:

mmm that golden sand and crystal clear lagoon accompanied by tall coconuts on the background! (Fuerteventura)

This is also from Fuerteventura, but from the south. The airport is in the half north of the island and it has an annual mean average of 21.1ºC, but i'm sure that in the lower south the temperature is easily 0.5ºC warmer year round.

These were planted since seedlings in Tenerife by a coconut lover and they're still there! (I think it's SE Tenerife, I don't remember well)

This is in the warmest climate. SW of Gran Canaria island, 12b Hardiness zone! ->

In La Gomera, the least known island. Gomera has a very looking tropical landscape in the interior of the island!

But the real beauties in La Gomera are the native CIDP forests!

La Palma island! The 3rd least known island after Gomera and Hierro, it's known for it's cloud forests and black, volcanic beaches.

 

And this is when the local government removed a few of the most beautiful and enormous coconuts in order to place a stupid construction. 

 

A fun pic. Christmas in the Canaries!  

 

 

 

 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

5 hours ago, pin38 said:

I sense a little Portugal-Spain rivalry going on here

Nooo! why? 

I've just seen that comment and I wanted to clearify the thing about the temps! Nothing bad from my part.

2 hours ago, Cluster said:

Lol you are probably not talking about me  I love the Canary Islands. I do believe they share similar climates, however, and if I had space I would also try other tropical species like Theobroma Cacao, breadfruit etc:). The Azores for example I find their climate more different than Madeira, than Madeira is from the  Canary Islands.

Adam I forgot to mention, there is another IPMA station on Funchal called Funchal/Lido, that one is warmer than the old one as it is in a much better spot, but I am not sure it is warmer than Lugar de Baixo station. In order to get warmer weather stations than Lugar de Baixo you would need to place them in the zones I told you before, Madalena do Mar, Paul do Mar and Jardim do Mar oh and Fajã dos Padres which I forgot before, these are the zones where the best tropical fruit comes from.

 

Well, in the south of the Canaries the difference (in temperatures) is actually bigger than Madeira and the Azores. Maybe not all of the Azores, but for example there is a bigger difference between the south coast of Tenerife/Gran Canaria/Fuerteventura than comparing Funchal with Ponta Delgada, which is the warmest place on Azores. Not only in temps but also in rain. Madeira is pretty green, the south of the Canaries are extremely dry. Climate-wise in overall it resembles more Ponta Delgada also for this, the rain also plays a role.

I think that Cacao couldn't be planted in Madeira, as well as in the majority of the Canaries. It needs a very specific microclimate with humid temps, lots of rain, etc. Even with irrigation, it needs some additional few warmer degrees during the winter. In the Canaries they only could grow probably in the south of La Palma, Gomera and Hierro. The others are too arid and they're also too hot in the summer, plus the Calima which for example the eastern Canary Islands don't get. 

 

In the Canaries the coconuts are from many years ago another palm which is not an exception. I mean, no one bothers or gets surprised when seeing them, as well as enormous Roystoneas, they're practically "another tree" used in many places. Almost anyone cares about them, as they're lots and lots in number!

Another pic which I found on the net with big cocos, not sure if it's Fuerteventura or if it's Lanzarote! 

And I found another very cool pic! Sunset in La Palma.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Alicante