Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island

[Cluster]

Hello Adam, the difference between Funchal and Santa Cruz (81-2010)  21.5 - 19.6 = 1.9 only, Funchal to Ponta Delgada (81-2010) 19.6 - 17.46 = 2.17. So as you can see the difference is bigger and if we compare February when the climate matters the most the difference between Funchal and Santa is only 1.7, but Funchal and Ponta Delgada is 2.5! All south of Madeira is a bit more dry than you think during summer, we still have some south waterfalls that keep running even in the summer but it is not nearly as green as the north coast. And this is very similar with Tenerife, because Tenerife also has big mountains in the north and center that make the south coast dry and the north coast wet by blocking the tradewind clouds, the same phenomenon happens on Madeira. Madeira is a big wall in the ocean from east to west that alters the climate, hence there is a big difference between south and north coast in such islands.

The 71-2000 normals put Lugar de Baixo just 1.5 below Santa Cruz and 0.7 above Funchal, you can predict that nowadays it also got a lot warmer like the Canaries, so it is not just 4 years those were 30 years and the station still goes on, I just can't find the 81-2010 normals because IPMA sucks:P. The same goes to Funchal Lido Station, which is warmer than Funchal old station but they have not published the normals for it(no that I know off). 

There is not much more to discuss besides telling you that Fajã dos Padres, Madalena do Mar, Paul do Mar and Jardim do Mar are a bit warmer than Lugar de Baixo. I can't prove that to you because there is no data, but the local people(including me), the quality of the tropical fruits, the sunshine hours, the geography of the cliffs and the car thermometer all point to these zones being warmer than Lugar de Baixo. The southwest coast is quite big, a shame we don't have more stations, Funchal might be further to the south but that is not what matters the most, Porto Santo is warmer than many north regions of Madeira. Also don't forget (coincidence or not), Paul do Mar is the first place I was able to report mature coconut fruits (very healthy as well) so another big reason to believe it is a very warm region.

Adam I am in love with many of those coconuts, If I visit the Canaries I do not know which island to pick first at the first glance. I also loved the Laurisilva pictures from La Gomera and the CIDP forest. It is a shame that they killed so many coconuts on that beach, but here it would have been worse because you guys have hotels that alone have more coconuts than the whole Madeira Island.

As for Theobroma Cacao, people from the Canaries told me they are hardy there, maybe a bit more tender than cocos, do you know if the Theobroma Cacao fruit in the Canary islands? Also do you know if Mangosteen fruits there? Thanks.

PS: I know a lot of people here that produce Coffee. 

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Cluster

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

4 hours ago, Cluster said:

Hello Adam, the difference between Funchal and Santa Cruz (81-2010)  21.5 - 19.6 = 1.9 only, Funchal to Ponta Delgada (81-2010) 19.6 - 17.46 = 2.17. So as you can see the difference is bigger and if we compare February when the climate matters the most the difference between Funchal and Santa is only 1.7, but Funchal and Ponta Delgada is 2.5! All south of Madeira is a bit more dry than you think during summer, we still have some south waterfalls that keep running even in the summer but it is not nearly as green as the north coast. And this is very similar with Tenerife, because Tenerife also has big mountains in the north and center that make the south coast dry and the north coast wet by blocking the tradewind clouds, the same phenomenon happens on Madeira. Madeira is a big wall in the ocean from east to west that alters the climate, hence there is a big difference between south and north coast in such islands.

The 71-2000 normals put Lugar de Baixo just 1.5 below Santa Cruz and 0.7 above Funchal, you can predict that nowadays it also got a lot warmer like the Canaries, so it is not just 4 years those were 30 years and the station still goes on, I just can't find the 81-2010 normals because IPMA sucks:P. The same goes to Funchal Lido Station, which is warmer than Funchal old station but they have not published the normals for it(no that I know off). 

There is not much more to discuss besides telling you that Fajã dos Padres, Madalena do Mar, Paul do Mar and Jardim do Mar are a bit warmer than Lugar de Baixo. I can't prove that to you because there is no data, but the local people(including me), the quality of the tropical fruits, the sunshine hours, the geography of the cliffs and the car thermometer all point to these zones being warmer than Lugar de Baixo. The southwest coast is quite big, a shame we don't have more stations, Funchal might be further to the south but that is not what matters the most, Porto Santo is warmer than many north regions of Madeira. Also don't forget (coincidence or not), Paul do Mar is the first place I was able to report mature coconut fruits (very healthy as well) so another big reason to believe it is a very warm region.

Adam I am in love with many of those coconuts, If I visit the Canaries I do not know which island to pick first at the first glance. I also loved the Laurisilva pictures from La Gomera and the CIDP forest. It is a shame that they killed so many coconuts on that beach, but here it would have been worse because you guys have hotels that alone have more coconuts than the whole Madeira Island.

As for Theobroma Cacao, people from the Canaries told me they are hardy there, maybe a bit more tender than cocos, do you know if the Theobroma Cacao fruit in the Canary islands? Also do you know if Mangosteen fruits there? Thanks.

PS: I know a lot of people here that produce Coffee. 

 

Hey, if you read again, I said this  

"Well, in the south of the Canaries the difference (in temperatures) is actually bigger than Madeira and the Azores. Maybe not all of the Azores, but for example there is a bigger difference between the south coast of Tenerife/Gran Canaria/Fuerteventura than comparing Funchal with Ponta Delgada, which is the warmest place on Azores. Not only in temps but also in rain. Madeira is pretty green, the south of the Canaries are extremely dry. Climate-wise in overall it resembles more Ponta Delgada also for this, the rain also plays a role."

Santa Cruz is in the north of the Canaries, it is exactly on the NE of Tenerife! I was saying comparing it to southern Canaries. In the southern Canaries the climate is obviously the warmest of the whole Canary Islands (as we can see by the pics and the plants, cocos, palms etc they grow) but we don't have any single official station which is not for observating temps, we didn't get anyone with historical averages. 

Yes, coffee grows everywhere on the Canaries too, even in San Cristobal, at +650m of altitude and a yearly temperature under 17ºC, but it's more humid, and it also has obivously freezeless summers. But coffee is much more hardy than cocoa is. cocoa indeed grows but at few places, like the south of Gomera, La Palma and El Hierro islands.

Yes haha, a single hotel from the Canary Islands got more coconuts than the entire island of Madeira, (or at least the ones which we know at this moment). Not trying to be rude, eh! But if you see for example one hotel which I posted on the last page got like almost a hundred of coconuts just within their green areas, and most which got them usually have at least 2-3 dozens of them. In total, hotels would have thousands and thousands of them. If just 1 in Fuerteventura has +200 counting the ones from the garden and the ones from their private beach! I posted the pic before, is that with the small coconut jungle.  

In Madeira finding a coconut is something very exceptional, at the moment, how many do you have spotted in the whole island? Somewhere close to 30, right? But as we see, most grow nice, slow but nice, so Madeira has also a bigger possibility of growing coconuts in the warmest parts!

This pic just impressed me. I discovered it yesterday, this is from a hotel in Lanzarote, the 2nd northernmost island!

Here is the pic from their 2 gardens and private beach, and still a bunch of coconuts can't be seen from this pic (west of the pic) as well as the ones which are at the other side of the building. Look at the size of many of them, wow, taller than the whole hotel. We got some serious things right now!  

 

Talking about temps: For example like I told you, Mogán averaged 22.8ºC and Maspalomas 22.7ºC in the 2012-2016 period, whilst Santa Cruz in the same amount of time had a mean average of 21.6ºC (+0.1ºC from the normal average), and Las Palmas 21.3ºC (+0.2ºC from the normal average). So the difference between the temperature of the warmest spot on the Canaries and the warmest on Madeira still will make a difference of 2.3-2.4ºC! (based on our estimations). And not only that, like I said you goes the same for sun strenght and the rain plays a major role too. In the Macaronesia climatic guide, the driest point on Madeira (except for Porto Santo which is cooler) gets 500mm of rain, right? The south of Tenerife and GC islands is purely desertic, with less than 150mm of rain.

 I'm not sure about the Lugar do Baixo station, I know that it has been included in the Macaronesia guide but I literally can't find it nowhere in the whole Internet! Not a trace from it in IPMA, not a trace from it in AEMET, not a trace from it in local government websites, Lugar do Baixo or P

About the mangosteen, yes, as I told you they grow and fruit there, in fact many nurseries sell them as for example they sell us orange trees here in Alicante.  As well as achiote, mamoncillo, rambután, dragon fruit, annonaceae, chicozapote, pomarrosa, tamarindo... but some of those species, just as the mangosteen, just grow in the warmest spots of the islands (south of Gran Canaria and Tenerife) where the mean annual temp is above 22ºC. They also need an humid microclimate so they must be placed between many others green trees and a constant humidity or ambient humidifying near them. It's not just a temp issue, but also an ambient one! They would be probably in their climate limits in the southern Canary Islands (27-28ºN), as they need a truly tropical climate. I'm sure that above 28ºN of latitude they can't grow anywhere else except for the Midway Atoll, the island from the Pacific.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Alicante

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

And nope Cluster, I never travelled to the Canaries but I plan a travel on them! And when I'll be there, I'll make at least a 2 week trip. 

And probably I will be at least 2-3 days in the hotel from above. OMG, probably more than 200 coconuts just within the limits of the hotel (2 whole green areas, entrance, pool entourage, private beach...) I also would like to spend a couple of days in this place, as i'm sure as the nearby hotels from it gotta have dozens and dozens of cocos!

Not sure how the cocos grew if they're practically wild here! No irrigation signs near them as this is in a lagoon in front of the Atlantic Ocean!!

In this pic I can count 5 coconuts, 2 tall cocos and 3 normal ones (if you look well, the cocos are easily distinguishable by their fronds!) And all of them look with very healthy, dark green fronds. The 2 ones on the right in fact can't look more wild as they're even left without a trim on them! How it is possible for them to grow in this place with 100-150mm of rain?!

I would also like a lot to visit the cloud forests as well as the natural CIDP forests of Gomera. La Palma has some laurel cloud forests at a lower latitude in the middle south of the island full of those plants resembling palms (I don't know it's name) so it gives you a full sensation of a tropical forest, just like the light blue lagoons in the middle of it. It is a marvelous place!

 

Btw Cluster, I think it is the right time to make a separate thread about the Canaries! I will make it soon, i'll mp you then.  

Edited September 1, 2017 by Alicante

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, Alicante said:

 

About the mangosteen, yes, as I told you they grow and fruit there, in fact many nurseries sell them as for example they sell us orange trees here in Alicante.  As well as achiote, mamoncillo, rambután, dragon fruit, annonaceae, chicozapote, pomarrosa, tamarindo... but some of those species, just as the mangosteen, just grow in the warmest spots of the islands (south of Gran Canaria and Tenerife) where the mean annual temp is above 22ºC. They also need an humid microclimate so they must be placed between many others green trees and a constant humidity or ambient humidifying near them. It's not just a temp issue, but also an ambient one! They would be probably in their climate limits in the southern Canary Islands (27-28ºN), as they need a truly tropical climate. I'm sure that above 28ºN of latitude they can't grow anywhere else except for the Midway Atoll, the island from the Pacific.

Hmm, seems like my dreams of living in Spain and having a durian orchard just might be compatible. There are photos of breadfruit growing in El Palmetum de Santa Cruz de Tenerife somewhere on this board. Would love to see some photos of fruiting mangosteens or other ultra tropical fruits en Canarias...

[Xenon]

 

8 hours ago, Alicante said:

 

Some Canarian guanabana (they grow even a bit inland, this one is from the north if I don't remember bad)

That looks like jackfruit (Artocarpus heterophyllus), tender, but not ultra tropical like guanabana (Annona muricata). 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

46 minutes ago, Xenon said:

 

That looks like jackfruit (Artocarpus heterophyllus), tender, but not ultra tropical like guanabana (Annona muricata). 

You're right! I mistaken it. Here is a photo of a Guanabana tree within a small cultivation in the Canaries:

It grows perfectly on Mogán for example, which is the warmest place of the whole islands, and where the mean annual temp is close to 23ºC http://www.viverosmogan.com/blog/guanabana-en-viveros-mogan-guanabana-en-gran-canaria/ in fact it's becoming more popular across Canarian nurseries.

 

The Canaries have cultivations of premium Guanabana teas. Of course it's all eco and planted in adequated soil.

Still you can only see this close to the coast of the southern islands. Probably the only other place above 28ºN which can grow them is the Midway Atoll.

http://www.freshplaza.es/article/102071/Guan%C3%A1bana-ecol%C3%B3gica-de-las-islas-Canarias

51 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Hmm, seems like my dreams of living in Spain and having a durian orchard just might be compatible. There are photos of breadfruit growing in El Palmetum de Santa Cruz de Tenerife somewhere on this board. Would love to see some photos of fruiting mangosteens or other ultra tropical fruits en Canarias...

Anytime.

I've just readed that they started to make large fields of breadfruits, lichis, carambolas, pitayas and tamarindos. As well as guanabanas in the warmest places. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Alicante

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

If you are interested about tropicals in the Canaries, take a look to this.  http://www.viverosmogan.com/index.php?opt=catalogo&cat=Frutales

Any plant/fruit of there has been proven outside (without protection obviously) in Mogán, where the nursery is (and also the warmest zone). I've seen Cocoa too. 

http://www.guanches.org/enciclopedia/index.php?title=Guayabo#Canarias Guayabas grow in the Canaries in large extension for more than 20 years. They grow mostly well inland at altitudes under 400m. Yyou will find most at 300-400m altitudes, not at the coastline! The production in the 90s was 400 tonnes per year, probably nowadays it's much bigger than that! This Canarian girl invites you to taste a local made gin maded of Guayaba and Mango, would you try it?  

Edited September 1, 2017 by Alicante

[Cluster]

Hello Adam, Santa Cruz is in fact in the southeast coast of Tenerife, you could say Paul do Mar is in the north too and if you only check the coordinates you would think so, but it is in fact in the southwest coast, that is all that matters it is in front of the mountains that block the tradewind. That Santa Cruz station is the warmest from the Canaries normals, maybe those in Puerto de Mogan will be warmer, one day we will know, Lugar de Baixo has had 21.5 sometimes too, I doubt it is only 0.1 degrees cooler than 21.6 Santa Cruz . The Canaries temperature fluctuates more than Madeira (Madeira is more stable) just look at the highest mean temperatures on both zones compared to the average mean temperature (this information is in the atlas). Lugar de Baixo is very well known, if you go to IPMA you can check the temperature everyday min/max humidity etc. 

Now check this Tenerife Sur (Airport) station, so in the "south" is actually cooler than Santa Cruz station, so I think it is fair to say what I said. Besides Fuerteventura is even cooler than Santa Cruz and that is a Canary Island, the same for Lanzarote. In any case if we speculate Mogan is warmer than Santa Cruz it is only fair to speculate that the southwest coast of Madeira will be warmer than Lugar de Baixo, we just do not have a station, not even wunderground stations:P. Ponta de São Lourenço is borderline desert, way less than 500 mm by the way:), but you are right for the most part.

I will spend the day on the southwest coast today so I comment on your nice photos and fruit information later, have a nice day!

 

 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

7 hours ago, Cluster said:

Hello Adam, Santa Cruz is in fact in the southeast coast of Tenerife, you could say Paul do Mar is in the north too and if you only check the coordinates you would think so, but it is in fact in the southwest coast, that is all that matters it is in front of the mountains that block the tradewind. That Santa Cruz station is the warmest from the Canaries normals, maybe those in Puerto de Mogan will be warmer, one day we will know, Lugar de Baixo has had 21.5 sometimes too, I doubt it is only 0.1 degrees cooler than 21.6 Santa Cruz . The Canaries temperature fluctuates more than Madeira (Madeira is more stable) just look at the highest mean temperatures on both zones compared to the average mean temperature (this information is in the atlas). Lugar de Baixo is very well known, if you go to IPMA you can check the temperature everyday min/max humidity etc. 

Now check this Tenerife Sur (Airport) station, so in the "south" is actually cooler than Santa Cruz station, so I think it is fair to say what I said. Besides Fuerteventura is even cooler than Santa Cruz and that is a Canary Island, the same for Lanzarote. In any case if we speculate Mogan is warmer than Santa Cruz it is only fair to speculate that the southwest coast of Madeira will be warmer than Lugar de Baixo, we just do not have a station, not even wunderground stations:P. Ponta de São Lourenço is borderline desert, way less than 500 mm by the way:), but you are right for the most part.

I will spend the day on the southwest coast today so I comment on your nice photos and fruit information later, have a nice day!

 

 

Hello, I will try to answer in parts again!

Mogán Port and Maspalomas had in the 2012-2016 years (5 years, 5 winters) an average of 22.8ºC and 22.7ºC (in this order), while in the same time, Santa Cruz had 21.6ºC and Las Palmas 21.3ºC. So it wasn't a period warmer than the normal averages, as in SC was just a +0.1ºC departure, and in LPGC was just a +0.2ºC departure.

You shown me some data of the 2002-2005 period which was the warmest or amongst the warmest in Madeira? And the mean was about 20ºC

- I don't think that it's possible for a single time in Lugar do Baixo to achieve a 21.5ºC average in a whole year, as you say Madeira has even less temp fluctuation. That would be more than +1.5ºC from the normal departure! Santa Cruz for example never had a single year with a mean departure above +1,5ºC year round! Or you were referring just to the warmest mean recorded in Lugar do Baixo for a winter month? I've checked the IPMA site, couldn't see the observatory of Lugar de Baixo but I could see some PDFs with the monthly resume. I've seen that the warmest February on record (or at least in the last 20 years or so) on Lugar do Baixo had a high average of 21.2ºC. 

 

About the islands. Of course that Santa Cruz is north buddy. It is very north, almost the northernmost point of Tenerife!

I made a line splitting Tenerife and another one splitting the whole Canaries. In Tenerife it is very north, and in the whole Canaries also falls in the upper north by far!

About Paul do Mar. I don't know what to say, for me it looks central-north, if we make an immaginary line splitting it up:

 

About the tropicals, tropical fruits, etc. Of course that the Canaries can grow plenty more! As the Midway Atoll, Bermuda or Easter Islands can do! Bro, it's also the latitude (4ºN more to the south), warmer sea temps, about +2ºC in winter or a bit more, on the south of the Canaries it goes up to +3ºC. Madeira is too cool in the winter for sea weather, as well as for bathing. I've readed some pages ago that someone well known with Madeira (Pargomad?) said that in winter, lots of trees lose their leaves, as well as the pics which I've seen from late December from late March (most) had people on sunny days with light jackets, sweaters, light jerseys... and also including many tourists. You will see this in the Canaries only in cloudy days.

The winter temperatures are also considerably warmer, not very much, but those +2ºC do a lot for tropicals! Guanabanas for example are in their limit in the Canaries, unless in the very south. 

Here they use the IPMA station: https://www.tutiempo.net/clima/ws-85220.html (from here is where I took my averages from Las Palmas in the 2012-2016 period) if you see, Funchal is almost always rounding or exactly matching the annual average temperature (19.6ºC) as well as Santa Cruz or Las Palmas do.

Fuerteventura for example can be in the limit of beach weather during most winter days. The sun shines quite powerful, the normal highs are 21-22ºC day by day and the sea temperature is about 20-21ºC, so it can be a limit for sea weather (and Fuerteventura is not even amongst the warmest as you know) while in Funchal for example, temps normally are in the 19-20ºC, and the sea temperature 17-18ºC. I think that in the other parts of the island, it is cooler, isn't it? Lugar do Baixo can have the same or few decimals warmer than Funchal does. 

 

Btw, I think that we should continue this conversation on a new thread about the Canaries, which I'll do soon! I just seen your comment saying that the Canaries are just a bit warmer and I wanted to specify that they're significantly warmer, specially on the southern coast you will find temps almost up to 3ºC warmer than the warmest Madeiran spots (Mogán and Maspalomas, if we take the supposed mean of Lugar do Baixo or specially if we take the mean of Funchal, 19.6ºC) 

But this is not a Canaries vs Madeira battle bro, I've just seen that comment and I wanted to specify out. After all, there isn't a world apart in temps.

Regards, Adam. 

[Cluster]

Hello Adam I agree with you no point in discussing the climate further and we can always agree or disagree, no problem either way:).

Anyway I want to clear some numbers and a few things. No those 4 years just happened to be the ones the thesis was based on nothing else. Ponta do Sol averaged 20.74, calculated as (23.95 + 17.53)/2 = 20.74 (that is the standard away and if you check Funchal normals and Tenerife normals it is calculated like that) on those 4 years, Funchal was also above 20. Example Tenerife 81-2010 has mean max of 24.6 and mena min of 18.4 which means (24.6+18.4)/2=21.5  . In these last years Lugar de Baixo has been around 21+, I know it was 21.5 in 2012 and 21.2 in 2016 because I and another person from meteo forums averaged it by hand... that was painful. I just showed you those 4 years so you can see each month compared to Funchal and see how the temperatures have also evolved over time since 70 and to show you Funchal old station is not the warmest by far. If I could get the data from Funchal/Lido station then you would see much warmer temperatures due to its place than Funchal Observatory station(the old one).

Adam regarding Santa Cruz location it faces southeast(and is protected by the northern winds etc due to the northern mountains), not north, that is why it is so warm, just being south or north does not mean anything by itself, La Palma south west coast is way warmer than Tenerife north coast and yet it is north of Tenerife I hope that makes sense to you, likewise I said Paul do Mar is in the southwest coast but in fact if you check the location is more in the north as well. Also Tenerife Sur weather station(South coast and south location) 81-2010 normals average 21.4 while Santa Cruz 81-2010 normals average 21.5, so as you see just because Tenerife Sur is in the south does not mean it is warmer. The only apples to apples we should be comparing here in my opinion is the 70-2000 study which puts Lugar de Baixo at 19,7 and the warmest station from all the Canaries back then at 21,2 and that was Santa Cruz station.

Mogan seems to be a recent urban station and because of that there are no normals yet (they might even be tweaking the station for what we know) also just because it is a normal year for Santa Cruz does not mean it is the same for the next island (Gran Canaria). This year the summer has been cool in Lugar de Baixo and Funchal has been warmer and is ahead of Lugar de Baixo and this is happening in the same island!! Anyway even if Mogan ends up warmer than Santa Cruz, other Canary islands are cooler and believe me we have warmer zones than Lugar de Baixo and with more sunshine. Next time I swear I won't be using "a bit" I will only say, the difference between Santa Cruz and Lugar de Baixo (which were the warmest normals from IPMA and AEMET study) are 1.5 C apart.. uff:P

By the way this is not scientific but today at 3 pm I measured the temperature of Madalena near the beach, under the shadow of a tree and a hat, it was a cloudy day:

The concrete around was not warm at all due to the shadow of the tree, anyway some mins before the thermometer of the car in Lugar de Baixo was 1.5 C below it. When I arrived it was measuring 29.7 during the first 10 mins then I went for a drink and once I returned it was stable at 30.1. For reference when I measure our garden In Funchal under a CIDP we have been getting around 27s. 

Tutiempo fails a lot with our weather stations, for example in those years from the thesis Funchal was way warmer than tutiempo, I would not rely on it buddy. 

As for people using a sweater I will be honest with you. I have been here in Funchal during February and such cold months, if it is sunny I wear a tshirt (90% of the time!) if it is cloudy I wear a tshirt if it is not a cold day or if it is not windy. When I go to Madalena during February (and those were few times to be any significant in statistic) the weather is always warmer and wearing a tshirt is even easier, you notice it right away. Some people behave like me, others have more cold and others less cold. Funchal is also a city that goes from 0 to 700m (2300ft) so the climate changes fast depending where you are. Overall that is a characteristic of Madeira, we have a lot of mountains we go from warm to cold very fast, you better be prepared during the winter, heck even in the other day I got 12 C at 4pm while going from one location to another. You are also correct that besides Funchal and the southwest, you will have cooler weather, however in the north coast in a sunny day you can almost always wear a tshirt comfortably if you are at low elevations. During nights I am fine with a sweater and can have dinner outside like that if it is not windy (which usually is not).

Our water is ok for bath all year around at least for me and some tourists, needs to be a sunny day. The water even in March does not hurt my bones, but it must be south and southwest coast, as they usually have warmer sea temp. The min average temperatures are 18 in March for Funchal:http://www.surf-forecast.com/breaks/Praia-Formosa-2/seatemp, similar to the data from Fuerteventura I have been checking:http://www.surf-forecast.com/breaks/Las-Salinas/seatemp. The western Canaries have warmer water than the eastern. Anyway this is not a primary beach destination, once they start removing all the black sand from the coast and we get our beaches back, maybe that should be be taken more seriously:(.

Anyway better to talk about other more interesting topics, you don't have to agree with I am saying  and that is ok, but I hope I have cleared some stuff in the process. I will talk about the fruits tomorrow and more Madeira pics take care:)

Regards,

Pedro

Edited September 2, 2017 by Cluster

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

Cluster, i'm not quoting the entire post to not make this page also very long (not for anything else)

Take account that a year, 2 years or 3-4 years don't make a data nor can't be comparable with 30 year averages. This last winter ifor example:

In January, Funchal had slightly above average temps https://www.tutiempo.net/clima/01-2017/ws-85220.html the maximum was 19.5, while the exact mean is 19.7. But the minimum was higher than normal, with 17.0 (+2.3ºC higher than the average low). In February, it had the exact mean of 19.6 (exactly the average) and a 14.4 low  (+1ºC higher than the average low). March also had a high 100% on average, with 20.4, just as the 1981-2010 average. Besides the minimum was again above average, 14.7 (+0.8ºC)

 

Take account that TuTiempo right here uses the official temperatures. They are not good in prediction, but in observation they use the data of each country's meteorologic agency!

 

Whilst the Port of Mogán, had many days with +25ºC high temps in January and February (AEMET). The highest temperature of January in Funchal was 21.5ºC and 3 days surpassed 21ºC, including this 21.5 one. In February, 4 days with +21ºC high temps and the highest was 21.7ºC. While in Mogán, not a single day had a high under 21ºC in the whole year, while in Funchal, already in Spring, from the 20th to the 26th of March (1 entire week) the high temps didn't went above 20ºC, and one day had even a 12ºC low. I don't think that even in the warmest year on record in Madeira, there is a single possibility on the warmest place to have constant +21ºC highs during 3 months. At the moment checking all data it never happened that neither in Lugar do Baixo. In Mogán was a normal year too, it wasn't warm. At most some few tenths on the low temps.

 

Tenerife Sur is on the southeast of the island and influenced by cooler currents (and Mogán, Maspalomas are not in Tenerife). Btw, you still can see that their winters are considerably warmer than they would be in Lugar do Baixo. But it's normal like I said before: closer to the Equator, bigger sun strenght, slightly warmer sst... they all enter onto consideration in this case. I also don't think that there is a single warmer spot than Lugar do Baixo in the island, the data is already fizzy in Lugar do Baixo and it doesn't appear in the website of IPMA, maybe not a IPMA owned station? Whilst in Mogán, Maspalomas, etc we have official AEMET stations.  

 

I'm not trying to say that Funchal/Madeira is cool or something like that. No no no! But I mean, in Madeira it is an event to see in a year a few green cocos on a coconut, while coconuts are extremely rare, I counted about 2-3 dozens in the entire island looking at this whole thread? And you walked a lot on the island to find them!

There is not a world apart in temperatures, but those additional 2 degrees from Santa Cruz, 1.5-2 from Fuerteventura, etc, or 2.5-3 degrees from the south of Tenerife/Gran Canaria make a lot in this case. As you know and I shown before, there the coconuts grow fast, they have lots of mature orange cocos year by year, you can see lots of +20m coconuts in Tenerife, Gran Canaria and Fuerteventura. Not wanting to be rude, but all of those are unthinkable in Madeira right now, not ever in the warmest microclimat in Lugar do Baixo, isn't it? (maybe yes in 50 years with the constant global warmth? ). Coconuts are just "a tree more" already on the Canary Islands, most of people don't even notice them. Most of hotels have them too in their gardens and pools. In this aspect it is very different!

In fact, as far as i'm concerned, in many parts of the Canaries the coconuts have to be trimmed in the early growing season as there were some incidents with mature coconuts falling on the street and damaging cars! In Puerto de la Cruz, they trim the coconuts on the promenade like 2 times in a year (1 for cocos). 

 

Bermuda for example also has a few degrees (+3.0ºC in this case) more than Madeira does but it has much more options to grow truly tropicals and much bigger cocos, and they do fruit as well every year. As well as the Midway Atoll. What is very impressive is that in Madeira, being at almost 33ºN of latitude can grow coconuts! and the ones which are planted in the warmest microclimates even give even medium sized cocos (fruits) as we seen in the pics ! Now we have to wait and see if they will be fully mature by any year? It's not like a thread to compare it to warmer places, it is to show this impressive fact at such high latitude buddy! 

 

The station of Mogan is not new, but it's an observatory station, not a station maded to register normal temps. AEMET got like 200 observatory stations in the whole geography of Spain, but the ones recording averages are much less, as you know. Mogán, Maspalomas - Gran Canaria and in Adeje, Las Americas  - Tenerife and the surrounding area can grow outside many tropical species and fruits which Madeira can't without protection, but it's normal, we are "comparing" a 27-28ºN zone to a 32-33ºN one ?! We are comparing a zone with presumably 23/17 (Mogán) winters with one where presumably the warmest winters are 20/15 (microclimate in Lugar do Baixo) ? Same goes for summers, the south of Gran Canaria and specially the south of Tenerife is much warmer during the summer time. The average during August would make about 30/23, Madeira is significantly milder during the summertime. 

 

Regards.  

Edited September 2, 2017 by Alicante

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

As we're in this topic now; for tropicals, it is very important the warmth within and after the winter too:

 

The highs and lows of Funchal from December to May are: -> 20.7 - 15.0 / 19.7 - 13.7 / 19.6 - 13.4 / 20.4 - 13.9 / 20.6 - 14.4 / 21.6 - 15.6

The highs and lows in Tenerife south in the same time -> 22.8 - 16.5 / 21.7 - 15.2 / 22.0 - 15.0 / 23.1 - 15.6 / 23.1 - 16.0 / 23.9 - 17.0 

In Funchal, most of decidious species remain without leaves during 2-3 winter months. In the Canaries under 28ºN barely a few do. Most remain with the leaves on them. We can also put the temperatures of Bermuda or the Midway Atoll, which are slightly warmer too. There is not a world apart, of course! But those additional few degrees make to one location (Tenerife this case) to grow many more additional tropical plants/fruits/palms and allows to much more species of trees to remain with their leaves year round.

Although the thing with the decidious trees, I think that it has more to do with the sun strength, as the Canaries are considerably closer to the Equator. As for example, many native trees of Papua New Guinea (entirely tropical, much more than the Canaries or Madeira) lose their leaves in the dry season (extremely dry) if they are not irrigated with water. 

 

 

[Cluster]

Hello Adam, like I said the Canaries are warmer but all the official stations in the study are 1.5 or less below Lugar de Baixo, there is nothing else to debate there. Mogan and the Canaries overall will fluctuate more, that is, sometimes the year will be a lot warmer and sometimes a lot cooler (compared to their average mean), while Madeira will always be closer to its average mean value. Of course during the years the average mean value increases for both Archipelagos the same way! Adam I do not think you are paying much attention to what I have said, Lugar de Baixo in the last years is around 21, so there is no difference of 3 degrees to even Mogan (make it 1,7 at the most) which might be the warmest among all the islands, even Funchal is probably around 20.5 in the last years that is 2,2 at the most (if you do the math on those years I showed it was already 20.2, 2012-2016 is warmer). Another thing I have said is that Lugar de Baixo station is not nearly as warm as the other places I told you about, I even showed you the temperature yesterday of such a place. The southwest coast is wider than even Funchal, so don't think it is just a small microclimate, it is a zone. If you want to disregard the warm places of the island and only talk about Funchal (old station) then be my guest, but know that Funchal station in Lido in west Funchal is in fact almost as warm as Lugar de Baixo.

Tenerife Sur is almost at the southernmost tip of the island, that was precisely my point that Santa Cruz being further to the north is warmer. The thing is, they have mountains behind that protects them from northwinds and they are facing southeast protected by the northern mountains. 

Look at the data from IPMA I compiled for the coldest month, February 2013 (when I started the hobby) in Lugar de Baixo:

It is very stable but year by year you can notice how it is warmer than Funchal old station, on average it is something like 0.5-0.7 degrees. Madalena do Mar and such zones would be warmer, but since we have no data you may or not believe me . Anyway I am done with the climate, if I do get new data (from new studies, stations or data) I will update it here during the year:), the best thing that could happen is a new weather station (even if amateur!) in one of the warm zones, but I am not counting on it.

As for the leaves falling in Platanus, it is true but I would believe that happens as well in the Canaries, if someone that lives there would comment then we would know, this site says they do and has pictures showing it: http://www.arbolappcanarias.es/en/species/info/platanus-hispanica/ . I do not remember them planting these trees in the southwest coast.

The plumeria we have in our garden keeps many of its leaves during the winter and we are at 130 m elevation (426 ft).

Adam, you think we have very few coconuts because of the climate etc and that is fair while I think we have very few coconuts because people here generally don't care much about tropicals and they just plant anything, including Platanus near the Marina. Likewise I also believe they do not fruit more, because they cut them, actually it is not just believing I have documented them removing the fronds and the fruits in a  period of 2 weeks. So as you see it is more complicated ans it can be many things. I think you thought they would never fruit before (correct me if I am not wrong) and here I am with fully mature coconuts in Paul do Mar, they are not medium size by the way, they seem to be very wide and heavy in person, you realize they are not Malayan Dwarf coconuts when you are around them. I just do not know if they are from a tall coconut or a hybrid.

Many of those fruits you mention like Guayaba and the others are cultivated here but in small quantities, they do sell them occasionally. I think we also grow guanabana (that is what they told me in the local market), if I know more about it I will let you know. The diversity of tropical fruits that the Canaries sell is amazing, I would also want to see a fruiting mangosteen in the Canaries or at least people selling local mangosteens, can you get a picture for us? That is something I am not sure we can grow here, but would be nice to try it along with breadfruit and Theobroma cacao. 

Some of the coconuts from the Canaries look very nice, do you know which varieties they have planted?

Regards,

Pedro

PS: You should move from Malaga to the Canaries, I think you would be more happy there and could try real tropicals:)

 

 

 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

Hello Pedro.

The difference is not only of 1.5ºC as you know. The station of Funchal (the one of the city, affected by the UHI, as it's not the one from the airport) averages 19.55ºC in 1981-2010, so well, we can say 19.6ºC. whilst the one of Santa Cruz de Tenerife averages 21.5ºC exactly, that's almost 2ºC above the warmest spot on Madeira.

The 1971-2000 data is old compared to the newest one (and in 3 years we will have the 1991-2020 one...) and the data of Lugar do Baixo is fizzy/not very trustworthy as if you can see, in the same Climatic Atlas: Porto Santo and Funchal appear, but there isn't a trace of Lugar do Baixo and it's monthly means. Meanwhile in the Canaries do appear more than a dozen of different stations and in the Azores also appear a lot of different stations.

 

I checked the entire website of IPMA, reports, etc there isn't a single place in the Internet with the averages of Lugar do Baixo, neither 1971-2000, neither 1981-2010 and even neither 1961-1990! So we can't say that in the old data was 19.7 while Tenerife was 21.2 because we can't prove it, it's a mere number which can't be proven now. Besides, we can see all of the 1981-2010 data from AEMET or IPMA and we have Funchal (city station) and the AEMET data. Now Santa Cruz is 21.5ºC, warmer than the warmest spot on Madeira (Funchal, 19.55ºC -> 19.6ºC) Porto Santo just appears as an observatory station in IPMA and they registered it as an observatory station, as well as Mogán, Maspalomas, etc.

 

Funchal in those last 11 years has averaged exactly 19.65ºC (0.1ºC more than the normal 1981-2010 average). In those last 4 years it has averaged exactly 19.6ºC ! Where did you seen the 20.2ºC one?

I also think that it's practically impossible for a single place on Madeira to average 21ºC on various years, more taking account that in the same time Funchal (the 2nd warmest place, also influenced by UHI) averaged 19.6ºC, Lugar do Baixo is barely 15-20km in a straight line from Funchal, how can it be a bigger difference than from the north and the south of Tenerife which are a difference of almost 2ºN degrees in the parallel north? and with different ocean currents, sun strength, etc. Anyways, we can't find any single mean data for Lugar do Baixo.

Maybe on the warmest year on record, the warmest place (Lugar do Baixo) could arrive to be close to 21ºC, as Santa Cruz averaged on single year a temp close to 23ºC, but that was totally rare and not normal by any means. But in the last years Funchal averaged 19.6ºC, Lugar do Baixo at most could be 20-20.1ºC based on real suppositions looking at the temperatures nearby.

 

About the coconut things: Yes and no. Madeira lacks of warm (very slightly) in much of the island. Besides, in most of the southern coast, we have seen that coconuts can be grow without any problem! But in the center, upper north and northern coasts they wouldn't do it very well, maybe on a protected spot in a warm microclimate they can survive but they will have very slow growth. In the south of the island it is different, specially in the warmest microclimates (Funchal for the UHI, Lugar do Baixo, etc) we can see that they have slow growth but they look really nice!

 

Btw, I have to correct on some thing which you said about the Canarian climate. It has never been a lot warmer and neither a lot cooler than the average in a single Canarian place under 600-700m of altitude. It has never been a single year in the history with a temperature departure of +/- 1.5ºC from the normal average (year round) !

For example, the lowest recorded ever on Funchal (city station) was 6.4ºC just 9 years ago: https://www.ipma.pt/en/oclima/extremos.clima/ 

While the lowest recorded on Santa Cruz Tenerife was 8.1ºC in 1926. 9.4ºC in 1950, if we take data after 1950 (the Funchal station started to work in 1949, probably in 1926 in Funchal the temperature could reach even 5ºC). In Tenerife (south) the lowest ever recorded was 9.0ºC in 1988  Extreme high temps are more common for the Sahara winds, but on the eastern islands.

 

I don't think personally that Madeira could grow guanabana in a single place. People from markets usually say anything to get a sale, but if they grow just on some Canarian spots (the warmer ones) that means almost automatically that they couldn't in Madeira. Still, it is normal. 32ºN place and a 28ºN one. Sun strength, warm, ocean currents, etc. It is normal. Cocoa even less, cocoa would need protection even on the warmest spot of Madeira (Lugar do Baixo). Very limit in winter temps, but do lacks of fast warmth from January to April!

 

But still, it is very impressive for being at 32-33ºN and nowhere else in the world can grow such a big variety of species as Madeira does at such altitude.  

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

7 hours ago, Cluster said:

 

PS: You should move from Malaga to the Canaries, I think you would be more happy there and could try real tropicals:)

 

 

 

Unluckily I don't live in Málaga. I wish I was! Well, my climate is very similar but still not as warm as Málaga is on the winter.

As you already know (as I shown lots of pics in the past in this forum) Málaga has the biggest variety of tropical palms and fruits on mainland Europe! 

 

 

There is no need to move outside from Málaga if you want to know lots of real tropicals. 

About the fruits: Of course! Málaga got lots of extended cultivation fields of Mango, Cherimoya, Avocado, and less extended Guayaba and Papaya.

https://www.campodebenamayor.es/frutas-tropicales/ near the coast of Málaga and Granada you can find fields of Guayaba, Pitanga, Maracuyá, Tuna, Papaya, Cherimoya, Pitaya, Longan, Azufaifo, Zapote, Aguaymanto, Litchi, Tamarindo, Platanus, Kumquat... Even Carambolas!!! and of course many varieties of Mangos, Avocados and Cherimoyas!

It seems almost a dream for a place at 37ºN in Europe. But it's real, you can check the link, I can also post lots of other different links and videos, 

http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/aqui-la-tierra/aqui-tierra-carambola-moringa-otras-frutas-exoticas/3959081/ for example here you can see Carambola fields at open air year round in Málaga. In the link from above, you can see that their company grows all of the fruits which I listed and mentioned above. But most are gourmet/eco fruits which grow in small scale in the warmest spots, unless the Mangos, Avocados, Cherimoyas and Papayas which can grow in bigger spots (specially the 3 first ones, they also export them to the whole Europe!)

Edited September 2, 2017 by Alicante

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

This is how a Raphia was looking in February, after one of the coldest January days since 1990. One day had a high of just 11ºC and a low of 3ºC! 

Some other things in Málaga (mainland Europe, south of Spain, 37ºN!) 

 

Roystoneas have an impressive growth for a place outside of the tropics! And they give lots of flowers every year too. 

Málaga grows nice Cyrtostachys, Pritchardia, Neoveitchia, Raphia, Roystonea... and many others,

I made a compilation about 2 years ago on PalmTalk but this is not the right thread to show them all. Still, as if we were talking about this, I just wanted to show you how Málaga can grow lots of tropical plants, it is almost unbelievable for a 37ºN place in EUROPE! But it is real.   I would love to live in Málaga!

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Alicante

[Cluster]

Adam:P, come on do you really want to disregard an official publish from AEMET and IPMA which has the best criteria and the official standards ever created ever for our islands? You can have access to the 81 2010 normals if you pay IPMA for them to give you the data, which I and you don't want to do. If you go the climate reports from Madeira on the IPMA site they had them till the year of 2010 and in those monthly reports they usually have the 81-2010 normals and the difference during that month to the normals and there you can see Lugar de Baixo 61-90 normals, sometimes they put the 70-2010. The extreme low record of 6.4 was in the year of 1949.. around the years they changed the station to a new place the "new station" that I am referring as old has not seen temperatures below 7.4... go check Funchal 61-90 70-2000 or 81-2010 the low record is 7.4. This station is almost at 60 m elevation by the way and is really not much affected by the urban heat island effect because it is very far from the center, it is located in the periphery near a cliff close to the sea which is a natural reserve around there...with grass and all the standards such station require. I know it is confusing but the station changed two times and had to be tweaked if I remember correctly. Now if you checked the Lido station in Funchal that one is more in the center and is also at low elevation, two of the reasons to be warmer besides the west area getting a bit more sun:). I know Madeira's climate like the palm of my hand because I have been studying it for years, even before palmtalk . The 20.2 comes from the years of 2002 and 2005 data, do the math and you will see, I explained you how they calculate the normals. Tutiempo has a lot of wrong information regarding the Funchal station and they do not calculate the mean the same way as the standard normals either, tutiempo can't be used and people on meteo forums don't trust it either.

I would not rely on 1926 data for Tenerife either, it is just too old, might have changed place meanwhile and so on. I do not know if they changed place like Funchal did and so on, now those 1988 values for Tenerife South look reliable and 9-9.5 is what I would expect from Santa Cruz from 60-now based on the new Funchal station. The normals begin from year 60 and not before for a reason. It is a shame Funchal station has 60m elevation, Lido station is a lot more immune to cold events and even Porto Moniz in the north has higher lows but it is a more recent station!

The next pictures compare the IPMA daily reports I have been saving to tutiempo, let's end tutiempo once and for all:

 

This is why tutiempo is bad for your health it lowered Funchal average by 0.6 in the first 2 days, they don't work well with IPMA period.

The reason Lugar de Baixo is a lot warmer than Funchal is the famous microclimates of Madeira, If you come visit Madeira you can stay by my house and I will show you the island, I promise hehe. But really Funchal is a big amphitheater surrounded by mountains that go till 1800+ meters (5900+ ft), but the mountains are very very far from the coast. In the southwest coast the mountains are protecting the coast a lot more, they are really close to the coast while also being tall and surround the zone in such a way that it heats everything. The other important reason is slight warmer water and a bit more sunshine (due to the mountains interaction) than Funchal, the sunshine alone will inevitably increase the average temperature even if by just a few. I am not saying Ponta do Sol (lugar de baixo) is 21 C on the 81 2010 normals, I am saying in the last years it is around 21 so from 2012 to 2016 also the years of 2002 and 2005 (which is the only data I also have because of the thesis) were close to that at 20,74. Funchal official station would be around 20.2 and 20.5 respectively.

 

[Cluster]

By the way Adam I took these pictures today on Madalena sunset but facing against the sea so you see part of the mountain range:

We don't have many cocos so the kentias are trying to be cocos wanna be here:D

 

Here you can see the last minute of sun before setting down on the mountain, these mountains here extend very wide and go very high while being close to the sea at the sametime.

 

Two waterfalls here but there are probably a dozen of them in this area,the right one is a bit dry but the left was still making a lot of noise. At the end of summer they usually look like this, now In September they will start to carry a lot more water.

Yes I know Malaga is the best place for tropicals in continental Europe:D, but I still think you would have more fun in the Canaries with our favorite tropicals the all year climate, the nature and variety and the warmer winter sea. By the way I really doubt that a Lipstick can grow in Malaga, too cold, that palm is a lot more demanding than cocos and people in the canaries had them die with a cold spell in the north coast while in the Palmetum in Tenerife they were protecting it for the first years (afraid it would die). These were the stories I read from our spanish friends here on palmtalk, so a Lipstick 100% unprotected, no heater no nothing in Malaga is virtually impossible? I am not even sure we can find a spot for one here on Madeira Island.

I will read more about Guanabana, are you sure it can only grow in Mogan?

PS: I think Lugar de Baixo low record is higher than Funchal low record for the new station which is 7.4(60-now). But this might be unfair as Lugar de Baixo probably started around late 60s.

Regards,

Pedro

Edited September 3, 2017 by Cluster

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

30 minutes ago, Cluster said:

By the way Adam I took these pictures today on Madalena sunset but facing against the sea so you see part of the mountain range:

We don't have many cocos so the kentias are trying to be cocos wanna be here:D

 

Here you can see the last minute of sun before setting down on the mountain, these mountains here extend very wide and go very high while being close to the sea at the sametime.

 

Two waterfalls here but there are probably a dozen of them in this area,the right one is a bit dry but the left was still making a lot of noise. At the end of summer they usually look like this, now In September they will start to carry a lot more water.

Yes I know Malaga is the best place for tropicals in continental Europe:D, but I still think you would have more fun in the Canaries with our favorite tropicals the all year climate, the nature and variety and the warmer winter sea. By the way I really doubt that a Lipstick can grow in Malaga, too cold, that palm is a lot more demanding than cocos and people in the canaries had them die with a cold spell in the north coast while in the Palmetum in Tenerife they were protecting it for the first years (afraid it would die). These were the stories I read from our spanish friends here on palmtalk, so a Lipstick 100% unprotected, no heater no nothing in Malaga is virtually impossible? I am not even sure we can find a spot for one here on Madeira Island.

I will read more about Guanabana, are you sure it can only grow in Mogan?

Regards,

Pedro

Yes, you are right, it's not a lipstick what it grows on Málaga, but Dypsis Lutescens! I had a confusion. Although all of the others do grow, and many more (I just checked that guide which I used 2 years ago in this forum to make the guide, as it's the "official" notebook of a park in Málaga telling which palms, plants and flowers they planted) Of course that the Canaries play in a much superior climatic league than Málaga does. But Málaga is more realistic when taking into account the economy, as they're also a technological and industry powerhouse in Spain (70% of the economy of the city of Málaga comes from the IT industry!). This is much more realistic than living in the Canaries. 98% of the good jobs in the Canaries are already taken by locals or by people who live there since many years ago. If you want a job in Tenerife, most opportunities are related to the tourism industry. In Málaga it is very different than in the Canaries in this aspect!

 

About the 6.4ºC, it happened in Funchal in December of 2007 bro. Check it at the IPMA website: https://www.ipma.pt/en/oclima/extremos.clima/ 

Funchal (1949)	6,4	38,5	0,0	1,5
Data	03-12-2007	10-08-1976

The 1949 near the station shows the year when the station started to work, as well is all of the other stations. Btw, this extreme low does not appear in the Wiki weatherbox because they just offer the extremes for the 1971-2000 period, the 1981-2010 is provisional. They just put the all time records after 2000 (if they happened) in the Extremos Climatológicos page.

Yes, I either see not very reliable some data of almost 1 century ago (the Tenerife one), the lowest was 9.4ºC in 1950, and after 1950, the lowest was 10.1ºC, it has never been under 10.1ºC in Santa Cruz de Tenerife in the last 67 years! About the Guanabanas, yes, they grow also in other parts, but extended just in Mogán. They also grow in the south of Fuerteventura, as well as in the island of Tenerife (Mogán is in Gran Canaria) as well as in the south of La Palma. They would also be able to grow and fruit in much of the coast of Gomera and El Hierro, as they have slightly warmer climates than La Palma. In La Palma for example, there are tall varieties of Jamaican Talls coconuts, which give giant mature fruits every year. There are lots all across the island, btw. An example:

. 

 

La Palma also offers this epic stampede!

There isn't anywhere else in the world with something like this except for Hawaii. Beach with coconuts and snow in the background! 

 

Very beautiful pics of Madeira up there! It's also a place to visit soon in my travel list. Specially for the natural environment.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Alicante

[Cluster]

Hello Adam, if that refers to 2007 that must be a typo from their part, the normals 1981-2010 values only show a record of 7.4, I can see how they could mess it up with 6.4...they sometimes mess the information of sea temperatures on their site and everyone on the meteopt forums knows the min temperature for Funchal happened between 81 and 2010 and was 7.4 (which is weird but it is the truth). I know there was an old station around 49 as well, but we should not discuss it here as we are talking about the new Funchal observatory hehe.

They have not been updating their site for ages, it says provisórias for all stations for almost 10 years, it just means they did not official declare and adopted them as the new climate standard for all their stations, in their monthly reports they used to compare the new temperatures with the 71-2000 normals, that is all this means. Did I say IPMA is not very good with info and?:( 

Anyway I go check the rest of your post:)

Edited September 3, 2017 by Cluster

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

1 hour ago, Cluster said:

Hello Adam, if that refers to 2007 that must be a typo from their part, the normals 1981-2010 values only show a record of 7.4, I can see how they could mess it up with 6.4...they sometimes mess the information of sea temperatures on their site and everyone on the meteopt forums knows the min temperature for Funchal happened between 81 and 2010 and was 7.4 (which is weird but it is the truth). I know there was an old station around 49 as well, but we should not discuss it here as we are talking about the new Funchal observatory hehe.

They have not been updating their site for ages, it says provisórias for all stations for almost 10 years, it just means they did not official declare and adopted them as the new climate standard for all their stations, in their monthly reports they used to compare the new temperatures with the 71-2000 normals, that is all this means. Did I say IPMA is not very good with info and?:( 

Anyway I go check the rest of your post:)

Pedro, take account that those 6.4ºC registered in Funchal are from December (as well it's the same station, if you see in your screenshot it says Período de funcionamiento: 1949 até a data, so it's the same one who registered the temperatures, the one from the city). Btw, take account that those 6.4ºC are from December of 2007, not January or February. I don't think that IPMA would mess up a temperature in another month so much. It's also pretty recent too.

IPMA after all is the most authoritative source for Portugal, as it's AEMET for Spain or NOAA for the US, etc. It's just that they didn't include it yet, just as in others:

If you look at another stations such as Guarda, with a new August hot record in 2003, they didn't include it (36.1ºC) they kept the old one, 34.6ºC. Viseu as well had a new March record low in 2005 (-6.7ºC) but they show the old one, -5.4ºC. In Funchal it happens the same, is a post 2003 record so they didn't include it yet.

Regards mate! 

Edited September 3, 2017 by Alicante

[Cluster]

Adam, December is a lot warmer than February, it would never record a 6.4 not in 2007 they messed up, it also shows 7.4 everywhere else on their normals(61, 71, 81). There are two Guarda stations and the july 2004 record of 38.3 is there, that is why you are confused. The same for Viseu, there are two stations and they say on their normals that it started in 41 and went till 2002, so it could never include a value of 2005 anyway as the station changed. Viseu/CC did record -6.7 but the station was not used for the normals.

They messed up with Funchal station and if you choose 71 2000 normals they say it started in 1970-now if you choose the 81 normals they say it started in 49-now. Trust me you won't find 6.4 anywhere else but that page, beginning of December. You are going to laugh now... but searching tutiempo to have a clue what was around that time

Also the low record for the whole year was 11,4  according to the not reliable tutiempo:s. I can't blame tutiempo much seeing how IPMA keeps messing with values all the time. But yeah the temperatures were quite warm around the 3rd day of december 2007..impossible to record 6.4.

Funchal is indeed warmer when it comes to record lows than Bermuda or Key west, and Madeira is an island almost at 33:). Will comment on the lovely cocos tomorrow!

Regards

Edited September 3, 2017 by Cluster

[Cluster]

 

21 hours ago, Alicante said:

They would also be able to grow and fruit in much of the coast of Gomera and El Hierro, as they have slightly warmer climates than La Palma. In La Palma for example, there are tall varieties of Jamaican Talls coconuts, which give giant mature fruits every year. There are lots all across the island, btw. An example:

. 

 

La Palma also offers this epic stampede!

There isn't anywhere else in the world with something like this except for Hawaii. Beach with coconuts and snow in the background! 

 

Very beautiful pics of Madeira up there! It's also a place to visit soon in my travel list. Specially for the natural environment.

Hello Adam, I really like many of those coconuts from the Canaries. So you have many Jamaican talls or so you believe? What about other varieties like Malayan Dwarfs, Fiji dwarfs, yellow and orange, Panama tall or any asian varieties?

By the way in Tenerife you could also take a snow picture with coconuts right?:P

Edited September 3, 2017 by Cluster

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

On 4/9/2017 1:15:32, Cluster said:

 

Hello Adam, I really like many of those coconuts from the Canaries. So you have many Jamaican talls or so you believe? What about other varieties like Malayan Dwarfs, Fiji dwarfs, yellow and orange, Panama tall or any asian varieties?

By the way in Tenerife you could also take a snow picture with coconuts right?:P

i'm not sure about coconut varieties, but seeking on the internet, in the last bunch of pics which I've posted on the last page, you can see many Jamaican Talls, as well as Malayan Dwarfs and Panama Talls. Probably you can see a mix of practically any coconut variety on the Canaries.

From which kind of variety are those ones from those 3 pics on Fuerteventura?

 

About the background: I don't know if in Tenerife it can be possible. Or at least I've never seen one of those. Why? Because Teide is far from any coastline! 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Alicante

[Sanips]

On 4/9/2017 1:15:32, Cluster said:

By the way in Tenerife you could also take a snow picture with coconuts right?:P

Yes, you can! I used to spent Christmas holidays in Puerto de la Cruz when I was a child. I remember being on a deck chair tanning (at the Lago Martianez or Playa Jardin where there was a few coconuts) with el Teide completely white. Sadly I haven't any pics.

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

Woah, didn't know that you could see El Teide from Puerto de la Cruz! 

Today, Playa Jardín has many coconuts! Look at those 2 first winter pics. Coconuts and people at the beach while snow on the Teide in the background!!! 

 

 

Look at the brutal trimming which they get. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Alicante

[Sanips]

Yes, they're way over trimmed. The next pics are from coconuts in Lago Martianez and a overall view of Puerto de la Cruz (typical postcard)

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

1 hour ago, Sanips said:

Yes, they're way over trimmed. The next pics are from coconuts in Lago Martianez and a overall view of Puerto de la Cruz (typical postcard)

wow! Excellent pics 

I made a compilation of the coconuts which I found in Puerto de la Cruz, as well as the ultra-tropical garden from the Loro Park, they got there lots of tropical palms typical from Singaporean or Indonesian gardens. Yes, that lake has many tall coconuts, as well as some giant ones. Same for the Loro Park and some other places.

I won't post here the compilation. I will start soon a thread for the Canaries and I will post them there. Loro Park as well has a giant Howea jungle! 

 

This is a "snack" of what I'll post soon in the new thread. 3 of the Loro Park coconuts (they have lots and lots) and their Howea jungle from the satellite!

This is how those 3 coconuts from Loro Park look ... in the middle of the winter, in late January ! (almost all trees as well don't lose their foliage in winter)

 

All of that from the middle are just tall Howeas !!! They look like this if we look from the ground:

 

 

[Sanips]

I love Loro Parque, I've been there 5 times or so. Even if you don't like jailed animals, you can enjoy the stunning landscape.

[Cluster]

Nice pictures from the Canary islands, guys! Will update the thread soon with more pictures from Madeira coconuts taken yesterday.

[cb815]

Hello from the Azores! First post here.

Just want to let you know that im planning to plant a coconut tree (maybe later this month or in October). The latitude is 37º north. The winter temperature here is usually 11-12C min and 15-16C max, but it is very humid! I hope it survives the winter.

[Cluster]

Hello Carlos,

First of all welcome to our community!

I look forward to hearing stories from you and our brothers and sisters from the Azores! 

If you are going to try out a coconut there it will probably be tough! You should try to get all the advantages you can to give the coconut a better chance. Get a well draining soil if possible, try to have walls, asphalt or any other nearby elements that can give a heat boost, get a sunny spot especially in the Azores. Add compost or any fertilizer of your choice (I would go organic route myself) as it grows to maturity, potassium deficiency will probably happen during winter so keep that in mind when choosing fertilizers to help with winter. Oh and try not to water the coconut during winter (unless it is really dry) as they do not like their roots wet in cool weather.

I wish you good luck and send us pictures if possible:)

 

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

I'm sorry to say this but at the moment in the Azores a coconut is impossible, anywhere in any island. Maybe if the global warming makes so intense in the next 50 years it will be possible, but now it's completely impossible! The low temps are very good, not a problem, but the lack of warmth and sunshine are the problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponta_Delgada#Climate looking at this (the warmest Azorean climate), in January and February the extreme high temp recorded is just of 20.2ºC and 20.4ºC, so winter lacks warmth. A coconut never survived in any climate with high averages under 17ºC (at least we don't know it even in this forum, where some users found some unbelievable things!) because the coconut can stand some days with 15-16ºC winter temps, ok, but not day by day, as it will also need 21-22ºC sunny days in the same month. This doesn't happen in Azores as the climate is too mild and stable. Madeira is much warmer and sunnier when it's more important for a coconut (winter, specially the high temperatures in Madeira are up to 3ºC warmer, That's a big difference!)

 

The sunshine hours are also very low for a coconut, with 109-93-97-103h from November to February (even March is low with only 120h) and the high averages are under 20ºC from November to May (both included). The spring warm-up is too low, from 16.8ºC in January to 17.7ºC in April (not even 1ºC in 4 months) 

Trying one will give you the answer but we will see only a plant suffering from lack of warmth and sun and dying slowly. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Alicante

[Shoowow]

Hello all. It's been a while since I've posted, but this is an interesting topic. I agree with Alicante that in theory it's a difficult challenge in the Azores, but I don't think it's an impossible one. The islands have many microclimates with some warmer spots. Also, when the sun shines here, it shines strong, even in winter! I know. I have lunch outside often near our parking area and the sun reflecting from a high white wall makes it almost unbearable. A soil with good drainage, a sunny spot, protected from winds might do the trick. Some of the lava fields of Pico island just produced the highest natural concentration of alcohol in any wine with a 20% alcohol level. Heat from volcanic currals certainly had something to do with it. Nevertheless, I think trying to grow coconuts here is generally a waste of time; a sort of badge of honor. We have many other beautiful palms, not to speak of the native dragon trees. As a side note, I had read on this forum once that growing a Roystonea here would be difficult, but I have a very happy one growing with not protection, fertilizer, or anything whatsoever. It's growing a new leaf ever month-and-a-half. Go figure.

[cb815]

But we can successfully grow so many tropical palms and plants here (Hawaiian ginger, orchids, bananas, coffee, guavas, avocado, annona, pineapples, rophies,  kentias,  archontophoenix, hyophorbe vershafeltii,  dyctiosperma album, dypsis, chambeyronias, bismarckias,  etc...).

I bought some seeds from an exotic palm online (can't remember which palm because it was some months ago (Will post the pics so you can help me with its ID) they looked dry so i didnt try to germinate them and just threw it outside, big surprise when i first saw its seedlings months later. If we can grow all of those amazing palms why not the cocos nucifera, i will give it a try 

Edited September 13, 2017 by cb815

[GottmitAlex]

20 minutes ago, cb815 said:

But we can successfully grow so many tropical palms and plants here (Hawaiian ginger, orchids, bananas, coffee, guavas, avocado, annona, pineapples, rophies,  kentias,  archontophoenix, hyophorbe vershafeltii,  dyctiosperma album, dypsis, chambeyronias, bismarckias,  etc...).

I bought some seeds from an exotic palm online (can't remember which palm because it was some months ago (Will post the pics so you can help me with its ID) they looked dry so i didnt try to germinate them and just threw it outside, big surprise when i first saw its seedlings months later. If we can grow all of those amazing palms why not the cocos nucifera, i will give it a try 

Go for it!  If there's a will, there is a way, they say.  Doesn't hurt to try and you will satiate any future doubts of "Could it have grown here in the Azores?"

Good luck!

 

[Cluster]

Happy to see two people from the Azores showing up and eager to zone push:). The biggest difference between Azores and Madeira temperatures is mostly during winter which will make it a challenge, in any case I think both of you should try it. If you follow the recipe well and create better conditions they might make it and if not, well you tried it:). The Azores does not have warm highs during the winter but it does have mean lows above many locations (such as Brisbane or Perth) and the record lows are very "warm" as well. Good luck with your experience!

PS: Do pineapples grow outdoors in the Azores or just greenhouse, I have never asked, but was always curious!

[cb815]

32 minutes ago, Cluster said:

PS: Do pineapples grow outdoors in the Azores or just greenhouse, I have never asked, but was always curious!

 We can grow them outdoors. This picture shows a pineapple growing at a farmland we have.

Edited September 13, 2017 by cb815

[Cluster]

1 hour ago, cb815 said:

 We can grow them outdoors. This picture shows a pineapple growing at a farmland we have.

Thanks Carlos, nice to know they thrive there!

As for cocos, remember it is a very tropical palm more tropical than the others mentioned. In my personal opinion they define a tropical zone in terms of temperatures. 

[Shoowow]

Back on topic (sort of) I am happy to see how cocos seem to thrive without difficulty in Madeira. Really nice pics. Since the Azores don't have a radically different climate (cooler in winter, true), but with no freezing and many days around 18c for highs in wintertime and lows many times not falling below 12 or 13, it's not impossible to phantom a coconut not only surviving but doing fairly well here. It's surprising sometimes (even to me) what can grow on the islands. I think a very stable climate temperature-wise, good distribution of rain, good light (not sun hours, but many, many hours of filtered light), high humidity, and good soil create a perfect combination for zone pushing.