Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island

[Stelios]

On 2/5/2019 at 10:59 PM, Cluster said:

Hello Everyone,

Before I show you the best reveal, I thought you would like to see some other palms I found during my walks. 

I wanted to find new gardens so I went to a few hotels and other places, some of these palms are new to me.

 

They keep labeling these archontophoenix as cunninghamiana, but I think they don't look like the normal cunninghamiana that I know.

 

 

Since I have joined Palmtalk I have seen a lot of Licuala pictures, but this is the first time I see one on the island

 

A local

 

These last ones I am not 100% sure

 

Hope you all enjoyed have a nice day/night

 

Beautiful photos Pedro. The last photos look like veitchia arecina.

Great find the Gaula cocos too!

[Pargomad]

Awesome photos Cluster ! I'm very impressed with the Gaula cocos, it seems to be one of the healtiest coconut trees on the island. Could you just tell me where you found the new exemplar in a private house in Funchal ? Did you also have the opportunity to check the cocos of Paul do Mar and Madalena do Mar ? 

Btw, I also went to Madeira last summer and I saw every palms you showed us, I just couldn't see all cocos, I only saw those in the marina (with baby coconuts on the dwarf cocos) in Funchal and one in Madalena do Mar. 

[Cluster]

@Pargomad

I will try to update the pictures this weekend. But to answer quickly, Madalena cocos: The one that almost got washed away by the sea had a rope around the trunk for better support.. but no added soil to its bare roots:(. The roundabout ones, the small one seems to be gone, the fungus has spread a lot after the summer. I think they are probably watering the canopy with sprinklers and a lot since it is small, the big one beside it, is better and healthy (sprinklers can't really water the canopy of this one)but it also doesn't seem to enjoy whatever they changed (compared to other years). Do notice this is December/Early January so cool weather didn't have time to set in yet, this is an issue that has been going from summer. 

 

Paul cocos, they are always healthy (dark green) but they are totally trimmed:\, you will see in the pictures

Regards,

PS: I will also post the link of the new one, but can't see it on maps. South Coast of Madeira had an average of 21 high and 15 low during January and February so that is good for cocos, except it did not rain much. 

Pedro

Edited March 5, 2019 by Cluster

[Cluster]

Also I forgot to add, meanwhile there was another storm surge so anything could have happened, it is not as bad as last year though.

[veeman55]

Dont get all the hype. Madeira is an almost tropical island climate controlled and mild by a direct path of the gulf stream so it shouldnt be surprising that coconuts grow there and due to its lower latitude. Consider also the azores which are very far north and very mild.

California Cyprus Israel and north africa north florida would be much more impressive than Madeira.

Edited March 6, 2019 by veeman55

[Cluster]

I wouldn't say impressive, by looking at the climate alone. But without protection and walls and greenhouses and lamps and cables and all sorts of things, it seems to be the last place in the northern hemisphere (along with the sister to the north Porto Santo) where they can reliably grow unprotected long term, as long as you don't start hammering them with sprinklers (on top of the crowns) and clay soils. But even in Madeira coconuts are very rare and would be nice to see someone attempting to fruit them (which we don't get to see as they are public and massively trimmed, we only have one account so far of a fully developed nut in a private and very trimmed coconut). Porto Santo at 33 is more impressive for sure, but no google maps and only 5k people living there, again not much coverage here.  I agree it would be even more amazing to try out in the Azores, but Alas we don't see many people trying them there so... 

Portuguese people overall don't care much about palms I think, that doesn't help our islands (Azores archipelago and Madeira archipelago) to get nicer cocos.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Cluster

[Cluster]

What would be nice and impressive to see is a Lipstick and Euterpe Oleracea being attempted there, in the zones with the best lows.

[veeman55]

5 hours ago, Cluster said:

I wouldn't say impressive, by looking at the climate alone. But without protection and walls and greenhouses and lamps and cables and all sorts of things, it seems to be the last place in the northern hemisphere (along with the sister to the north Porto Santo) where they can reliably grow unprotected long term, as long as you don't start hammering them with sprinklers (on top of the crowns) and clay soils. But even in Madeira coconuts are very rare and would be nice to see someone attempting to fruit them (which we don't get to see as they are public and massively trimmed, we only have one account so far of a fully developed nut in a private and very trimmed coconut). Porto Santo at 33 is more impressive for sure, but no google maps and only 5k people living there, again not much coverage here.  I agree it would be even more amazing to try out in the Azores, but Alas we don't see many people trying them there so... 

Portuguese people overall don't care much about palms I think, that doesn't help our islands (Azores archipelago and Madeira archipelago) to get nicer cocos.

Porto Santo is warmer sunnier and dryer than Madeira and wouldnt shock me at all either.  The Cyprus coconut is much more impressive and improbable. Theres another at 38° in italy at 7 months old which is still alive miraculously. You can see the pictures shown in another post in this forum.

[Cluster]

No, Porto Santo is nothing like that, besides the being drier, unless you don't consider the warmest spots of coastal Madeira:)

I also love Stelios coconut and it is impressive, but even he tries to give it some protection,  Paphos is also warmer than our Mediterranean climates and you could probably spot it from Porto Santo in a good day if they were at the same longitude. 

I am not impressed by the Italy coconut actually, but I commend his efforts, we could do that in mainland PT as well, that is a greenhouse coco outside with a heating cable. If you want to talk about "impressive", there was supposedly a coconut growing in a pot in southern Spain unprotected for some years with just the walls to help as far as I could see. 

I still do not see your point, we talk about coconuts in Madeira and other stuff related to Madeira and what can be done to increase their success, nothing else.  I think it is impressive that they can grow without help here, besides watering in summer, but that is not the point. Besides if we start producing coconuts on the island it will be a good source of knowledge and to further try out in the Mediterranean or borderline areas (even if it doesn't work well). You can't import them from the Canaries as an European, because their customs aren't compliant with European laws, but you will be able to do that with a Madeira coconut.

 

[veeman55]

4 hours ago, Cluster said:

No, Porto Santo is nothing like that, besides the being drier, unless you don't consider the warmest spots of coastal Madeira:)

I also love Stelios coconut and it is impressive, but even he tries to give it some protection,  Paphos is also warmer than our Mediterranean climates and you could probably spot it from Porto Santo in a good day if they were at the same longitude. 

I am not impressed by the Italy coconut actually, but I commend his efforts, we could do that in mainland PT as well, that is a greenhouse coco outside with a heating cable. If you want to talk about "impressive", there was supposedly a coconut growing in a pot in southern Spain unprotected for some years with just the walls to help as far as I could see. 

I still do not see your point, we talk about coconuts in Madeira and other stuff related to Madeira and what can be done to increase their success, nothing else.  I think it is impressive that they can grow without help here, besides watering in summer, but that is not the point. Besides if we start producing coconuts on the island it will be a good source of knowledge and to further try out in the Mediterranean or borderline areas (even if it doesn't work well). You can't import them from the Canaries as an European, because their customs aren't compliant with European laws, but you will be able to do that with a Madeira coconut.

 

I disagree porto santo is warmer than Madeira. Look up the weather stats. I used to read up the info on portsanto and madeira

And i also disagree with you,

that italian coconut should be dead by now because it was bought at the lidl germinated at  greenhouse under very hot conditions and planted in a not so sunny location with competition from a vine and not much attention was given to it all winter and to top it all off that area had one of the coldest winters in years. Even so Against all those odds thats why to me that coconut is much more impressive to me than any coconut in madeira which has a much lower latitude and the ocean to moderate any cold spells.

But when you get storms lookout..its terrible on azores and madeira

[Cluster]

We have to agree to disagree in some aspects anyway, it is good he is trying out the coco challenge.

I do agree considering the climate of Madeira, it is not a challenge if you know what you are doing and just plant in a good enough soil and try to avoid sprinklers (manual watering). However what is impressive is that it is the first place you find in the north that can do this without any extra care or protection and that they will thrive longterm.  Cali cocos or Tel Aviv etc, all are around the same latitude as Porto Santo and Madeira, Paphos is a bit further North but we are talking 34 vs 33 and none of these places has cocos thriving unprotected, for example in parks. With some tinkering and selected micro climates and some protection they can be grown in those places,  sure but it is not a given unlike Madeira which will grow them longterm and unprotected. Also should we stop talking about coconuts in Florida and such, because they grow there easily? Madeira archipelago might not break any record for coconuts, but it seems to be so far the northernmost place where they will thrive completely unprotected.

As for weather charts, I do not know what you are seeing, but there is only one official station (IPMA) in Porto Santo (which is inland  about 2 km or something from the sea) almost at 100 m elevation and compared to all the official south stations (IPMA) of Madeira , it is definitely cooler. Now we can speculate near the beach etc the climate might be a bit different and warmer, but we just don't have data. Madeira has significantly warmer places than the IPMA stations, but I can't use data to back that up hence I prefer to use the official climates of both islands. But consider this, both official stations of Lugar de Baixo and Funchal (lido zone) are around 20+/21 during the coldest month and have lows of 14+.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

Porto Santo might be warmer on average than Madeira if we compare the two islands on their whole territories. Since Porto Santo has lower altitudes the average temperature of the whole island is definitely warmer than Madeira's which has an average altitude of 700-800 m. and almost 35 % of its territory above 1000 m.  Nevertheless, this comparison is not valid and fails to show the reality.  As Pedro (Cluster) already mentioned, the extremely rugged topography of Madeira island creates a wide variety of microclimates with areas with average temperatures warmer than Porto Santo's official weather station located near the airport inland.  The south and southwestern areas, characterized by coastal platforms protected by high cliffs or mountains against the winds, are probably the warmest region of all the archipelago (except the lowest locations on the Selvagens islands maybe) but, once again, we do not have official data to corroborate this theory.  However, we do have a clue:  there, the coconut trees can fruit as we saw in Paúl do Mar (located in the south west) and in Funchal (in the south), there is even a cocos growing in higher altitudes (at approximately 140 m. high and far from the sea) in Ponta do Sol. But, again, we do not have official data about the coastal area of Porto Santo island where three coconut trees grow, but we can imagine that it is warmer than the official weather station inland. 

[Cluster]

Just correcting something, there is one in Ponta do Sol, around 170 m and one in Funchal at 200 m.

[Cluster]

Hello all,

@Pargomad I only have these pictures from the two Paul do Mar cocos in January:

 

Bonus pictures, the coconut that got hit by fires (in Almirante Reis garden) in one frond 2 years ago and that had no irrigation for 2 years. It now has irrigation and is recovering nicely, the new fronds are not stunted anymore and grow bigger and strong again. I believe this coconut will look very nice if it continues like this and it looks like a different variety than all marina cocos.

 

I am sorry for the picture quality, I didn't have time to use the camera this time, will do better next time:)

Edited March 10, 2019 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

Thank you for the pictures ! I look forward to seeing more ! I didn't know the coconut tree in Almirante Reis had suffered damages due to the fire, btw, what happened to its skinny sister ? Did they remove the second coconut tree ? 

[Cluster]

Only one frond was directly burned as far as I could see, but the fire was contained and didn't spread to the trunk. The coco then went with no water for a few years, the fronds were growing very weak and thin, meanwhile they started irrigation again last summer and I could notice right away new lush fronds growing. I don't know if they also gave it fertilizer or anything(I doubt).

I am a bit sad that the Paul cocos are so trimmed, that isn't good for the bunches and palm health and it doesn't look nearly as good as they could.

 

PS: They did remove the other coco.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Cluster

[Justin]

Going to be in Madeira next month, will gladly take some photos if someone can give me location.

[Cluster]

 

Hello, @Justin

Thank you that would be great, I will PM you this weekend with the cocos locations, if you need tips or anything just let me know:)

Regards,

Pedro

[Pargomad]

Hey guys,

I know it's been a while, but I just found two young cocos in a private garden in Arco da Calheta in a nice house by the sea and I just wanted to show you. Here are some photos: 

[Cluster]

Hello Kevin, those are wonderful news, I thought I knew all the cocos on the island, guess there are still some hidden ones! They look healthy:) can you tell me where is the house in question?

 

Also I do have a few pictures from 2019 if you want to see! If this is in Arco da Calheta, then I suppose it is kinda high elevation for a coconut on the island?

 

Glad to see you back:)

Edited November 26, 2019 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

Hey Pedro ! 

Here's the link on Google maps:

https://www.google.ch/maps/@32.7130162,-17.1566736,904m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=fr 

I would love to see your photos !

 

[Cluster]

Thanks Kevin, this is actually near the sea i would say between 50 and 60 m elevation so it seems to be in the perfect SW micro climate, will they grow well in that space? A nice thing is that they are two so I am thinking they will bear fruits for us to see in the future hopefully!

[Pargomad]

Hey guys!

I'm feeling a little nostalgic today and since a lot of the photos shared in here are no longer available, I've decided to post some old pictures I've found of the cocos that were growing in the avenida do mar before they were removed back in 2009. There were definitely more coconut trees on the Island back then than today, even though the climate seems to be warmer now. 

I've also been gathering the IPMA official temperature of 2019 of many stations like the one in Lido in Funchal. This year was particularly dry (with almost no precipitation) and warm, especially in Winter with tropical temperatures (no average below 18 C if we calculate them the traditional way: (TM + Tm)/2). I hope they watered them a lot to compensate the lack of precipitation. 

PS: (I missed one day in August and another one in October, but I think it wouldn't change a lot to the final mean scores)

[Cluster]

I think they had just been transplanted not so long ago in those pictures and still establishing roots.

Here is another one from the past , I think they were more established here:

It seems to me the only coconut from that batch that hasn't been removed with the constructions is the Almirante de Reis one.

It is indeed problematic that there is no rain in the south coast and I regret to inform that your concern is indeed real. Many of the coconuts look worse than before, suffering a bit from drought. 

While the previous year was indeed warm, do notice that Lido station is still relatively young, (I believe around 8/9 years old so no normals yet) and is warmer than the observatory. Nonetheless it is impressive that the lows in the winter are above many southern European stations highs, being only just 3 degrees more to the south.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

I know it's too early to talk about normals, but the tendency is quite clear. These past years, the average temperatures in Winter is around 17 C in Funchal and Porta do Sol, at least that's what I've seen in the meteorological data of the IPMA. But I'm not worried about the temperatures, what worries me the most for our little cocos there (and also other plants and trees) is the lack of precipitation we've been experiencing these last years, the climate is getting drier, unfortunately. 

[Cluster]

Just a correction Ponta do Sol is usually close to 18 (as long as I have been tracking it), give or take, Funchal observatory is the coldest station. They have also fixed Porto Moniz station (it wasn't getting good data for a few months) in the north. The lack of precipitation is bad for cocos, but to be honest the only way for cocos to thrive there, well.. they need irrigation. 

For people to get fruiting cocos they need to be close to each other if tall variety, they need to stop trimming them and they need to irrigate them during dry weather, soil type is also crucial, clay soil and they won't develop.

I have few doubts a lot of people could get mature coco fruit, if they had the passion and followed these simple steps:)

[Pargomad]

Really? How long have you been following it? Do you use IPMA data? Like I said before I just collected last year's data and I just thought it was a particularly warm year.

For the cocos,  I always thought Madeira was not enough tropical for them, but it appears that the problem here doesn't have anything to do with the climate since, like you say, there might be tropical temperatures along the southern coast of the island. People are the problem. They don't know how to properly take care of them and they don't irrigate them enough. 

 

[Cluster]

Yes, always official data, for instance look at these values 15 years ago (discard the mean temp as it is not calculated using the normal formula) from 2002 to 2005:

But yes the big problem of Madeira is people willing to experiment with it:( and lack of care overall with massive trimmings (including fruits). I have been spreading the coconut fever whenever I go there but it is hard!

[Pargomad]

Hey guys, I hope you are all doing well and holding up alright during the quarantine. I was just passing by and I couldn't resist showing you one of the oldest (or maybe the oldest) photo of coconut trees in Funchal, Madeira. 

Take care !

[Cluster]

Hope you are doing well too!

Those coconuts looked great, but it reminds us how stupid it was to rebuild the gardens and not caring about transplanting them to other places:(

As for coconuts and fruiting, the more I search about it the more I realize water is really important for fruit development. Not only do we trim the fruits/fronds, many of them (namely Marina) where there could be more pollination due to having the biggest coconut area on the island, just suffer from massively drought as we lack irrigation systems there.

I do notice that usually they lose their fruits either by trimming or drought around the dry warmer months. I would hazard that if they are indeed unable to fruit they would complain about the winter not summer, yet I notice many fruiting in the winter there.

I was supposed to go this eater to Madeira but the lockdowns and restrictions  made it impossible and unwise to go there. I did go there early March before the corona.

I miss the island:(

 

Take care!

Edited April 25, 2020 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

6 hours ago, Cluster said:

Hope you are doing well too!

Those coconuts looked great, but it reminds us how stupid it was to rebuild the gardens and not caring about transplanting them to other places:(

As for coconuts and fruiting, the more I search about it the more I realize water is really important for fruit development. Not only do we trim the fruits/fronds, many of them (namely Marina) where there could be more pollination due to having the biggest coconut area on the island, just suffer from massively drought as we lack irrigation systems there.

I do notice that usually they lose their fruits either by trimming or drought around the dry warmer months. I would hazard that if they are indeed unable to fruit they would complain about the winter not summer, yet I notice many fruiting in the winter there.

I was supposed to go this eater to Madeira but the lockdowns and restrictions  made it impossible and unwise to go there. I did go there early March before the corona.

I miss the island:(

 

Take care!

I also noticed that the cocos seem to be in better shape in winter, despite the "low" temperatures, probably because the amount of precipitation is higher than the rest of the year. I also was supposed to go there this summer (last time was in 2018)...  I miss it too!

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Pedro,   keep up the good work of taking pics of the Coconut Palms on Madeira, and stay safe during the virus and always.  I hope everyone else is safe too.

John.

[Cluster]

Hello everyone, hope you are all safe!

With all the Quarantine I feel nostalgic and take the opportunity to update some of the cocos, some are from summer others are from early March when I went there for 4 days (before the quarantine hit us).

Here some of the island cocos:

Marina late October:

The tallest one

 

Next one, highest elevation one (200 m/656 ft) on the island (Late October):

 

My neighbors (Late October):

 

 

Lugar de Baixo (late October), golden malayan I believe:

 

Madalena do Mar (Late October):

 

[Cluster]

Gaula coconut at 100 m elevation/328 ft (August):

 

Marina coconuts early March:

Dwarf one:

There is some context here, till April we had a very dry winter in the south coast, you can see the grass all died around the coconuts, so they are all suffering from drought in winter on top of the trimming going on. Usually they look better during winter due to rain water. As always the dwarf one seems to handle things better even in drought which is surprising. Maybe they water it more (unlikely as the grass is always dead there) or maybe the taller ones just don't have enough space for their roots to develop.

As for trimming look how the dwarf looked somewhere in 2017 with a lot less trimming going on:

Look how the dwarf looks like with irrigation and not a lot of trimming (2017):

 

Anyway the dwarf is fruiting even during winter, so Madeira should definitely have success in the hands of someone who likes coconuts and will water when it is dry and not trim them over and over. I know in the summer these fruits will be trimmed. Sometimes they also seem to abort during the summer due to the drought and increased heat. I don't recall them aborting any coconuts during the rainy season if they were pollinated.

In any case look at the dwarf fruiting early March:

It did have another one from a different inflorescence. 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Cluster

[Cluster]

I haven't posted many pictures regarding the island's landscapes and since I am not able to go there that soon this is a good way to remember it and show you guys a bit more. Here is a hike we did back in January 2019:

 

The sky was quite dramatic that day:

Some CIDP greeted us:

On the way to the top!:

 

If you pay attention to the top left corner (just in the horizon below the mountain edge) you can see a bit of Porto Santo, where the northernmost coconuts of the Archipelago are located! 

Almost there!

Well worth the tough climb:) :

Looking back while we catch our breath and enjoy the silence

 

After we return to the starting point we take a look back at the mountain we climbed some hours ago, and like magic the sun lights the peak as if waving us goodbye:

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Cluster

[Stelios]

Great photos of the palms and the island Pedro. We miss this place.  The Gaula coconut is very healthy with nice looking trunk. It has a good chance to give mature fruits if the owner gives the palm enough water and does not over trim it.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 5/2/2020 at 4:37 PM, Cluster said:

I haven't posted many pictures regarding the island's landscapes and since I am not able to go there that soon this is a good way to remember it and show you guys a bit more. Here is a hike we did back in January 2019:

 

The sky was quite dramatic that day:

Some CIDP greeted us:

On the way to the top!:

 

If you pay attention to the top left corner (just in the horizon below the mountain edge) you can see a bit of Porto Santo, where the northernmost coconuts of the Archipelago are located! 

Almost there!

Well worth the tough climb:) :

Looking back while we catch our breath and enjoy the silence

 

After we return to the starting point we take a look back at the mountain we climbed some hours ago, and like magic the sun lights the peak as if waving us goodbye:

 

 

Pedro,

It's beautiful, and so quiet and peaceful there.  I really envy you.

John

 

[Donald67]

On 2/19/2020 at 2:20 AM, Cluster said:

Yes, always official data, for instance look at these values 15 years ago (discard the mean temp as it is not calculated using the normal formula) from 2002 to 2005:

But yes the big problem of Madeira is people willing to experiment with it:( and lack of care overall with massive trimmings (including fruits). I have been spreading the coconut fever whenever I go there but it is hard!

Hello Pedro & John from Corpus Christi! Was in reading mode for several years from time to time! Finally decide to register here, because both of U!)) As I love Macaronesia & even visited CC and Brownsville some 30 years ago). Interested in tropical plants and climate since my childhood. If to speak about the possibility to give coconut  a try in the Azores, the best chance and legitimate I would say, could be in Praia Formosa village at Santa Maria AZ.  Remote and only some 500 people live there unfortunately. Check the data for 2013-2020 at Wunderground and U could see there is chance!

[Cluster]

On 5/3/2020 at 6:51 PM, Stelios said:

Great photos of the palms and the island Pedro. We miss this place.  The Gaula coconut is very healthy with nice looking trunk. It has a good chance to give mature fruits if the owner gives the palm enough water and does not over trim it.

Hello Stelios,

Thank you, I hope you return soon and buy a house there. Maybe next time if I am also there we can meet up. The Gaula coconut does fruit, I have seen it, I just don't know if they ever get pollinated (does not look like a dwarf coconut) and/or later on removed, the house is for renting I believe. So it is harder to speak with the owner about this.

On 5/4/2020 at 1:27 AM, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Pedro,

It's beautiful, and so quiet and peaceful there.  I really envy you.

John

 

I still have some few more that I will post, including cocos, I believe they are tailored to your taste:)

 

22 hours ago, Donald67 said:

Hello Pedro & John from Corpus Christi! Was in reading mode for several years from time to time! Finally decide to register here, because both of U!)) As I love Macaronesia & even visited CC and Brownsville some 30 years ago). Interested in tropical plants and climate since my childhood. If to speak about the possibility to give coconut  a try in the Azores, the best chance and legitimate I would say, could be in Praia Formosa village at Santa Maria AZ.  Remote and only some 500 people live there unfortunately. Check the data for 2013-2020 at Wunderground and U could see there is chance!

Hello Donald,

Welcome to palmtalk!

I believe Azores might have a few chances to keep one, not sure it would fruit or survive long term, but I think it is important to try it out. We have at least one person in São Miguel on palmtalk, trying their luck @Shoowow. 

I believe I have spoken about that spot in Santa Maria island as a good place to try it out. Amateur stations are often inflated (there used to be some on Madeira that were like always 2/3/4 degrees above the official in Funchal) when you compare to the values of their official stations so it may be a bit cooler than the station readings. Regardless I think it is a good first clue and of course some people do have nice equipment with a good radiation shield and place it away from buildings and such to make it more compliant with a scientific reading. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Cluster

[Donald67]

Thanks Pedro! I think the position of village can't lie!) Similar to Lugar de Baixo at Madeira. It's great that U and Joao are right there!) I even have a plan!) ( being on karantine you know)) If U look at booking.com there is vacation home Villa Natura in Praia Formosa. It looks perfect, they even have small garden, you could see some nice pictures  of it. The owner's name is Luis Mesquita. What if U or Joao could write him e-mail and tell the story of  northernmost coconut?)  I bet they will bite!)