Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island

[Cluster]

@Pargomad Where did you see an euterpe edulis (I have one in a pot but that is not public yet:P)?

[IlyaIvanov]

8 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

Here is a list I’ve established over the last years about the variety of palms that grow or can be grown on Madeira island. For that, I based myself on a phytogeographic study, on some statements made here on the forum and, finally, on my trips there or on some photos I saw on the internet. I would like to make clear that this is a non-exhaustive list and if you have any useful addition or comment, don't hesitate and tell me on the comments below ! 

- Acoelorraphe wrightii

- Adonidia merrilli

- Acrocomia aculeate

- Allagoptera arenaria

- Archontophoenix alexandrae

- Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

- Arenga engleri

- Bismarckia nobilis

- Brahea armata

- Brahea dulcis

- Butia capitata

- Caryota maxima

- Caryota mitis

- Caryota urens

- Chambeyronia macrocarpa

- Chamaedora costaricana

- Chamaedorea elegans

- Chamaedora erupens

- Chamaerops humilis

- Cocos nucifera

- Copernicia alba

- Dypsis decaryi

- Dypsis lutescens

- Euterpe edulis

- Howea belmoreana

- Howea forsteriana

- Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

- Hyophorbe verschaffeltii

- Jubaea chilensis

- Latania lontaroides

- Livistona australis

- Livistona chinensis

- Livistona mariae

- Livistona saribus

- Phoenix canariensis

- Phoenix dactylifera

- Phoenix reclinata

- Phoenix roebelenii

- Polyandrococos caudescens

- Ptychosperma elegans

- Ptychosperma macarthurii

- Ravenea rivularis

- Rhapis excelsa

- Rhopalostylis sapida

- Roystonea borinquena

- Roystonea oleracea

- Roystonea regia

- Sabal mauritiiformis

- Sabal mexicana

- Sabal minor

- Sabal palmetto

- Sabal uresana

- Serenoa repens

- Syagrus botryophora

- Syagrus romanzoffiana

- Trachycarpus fortunei

- Trithrinax brasiliensis

- Veitchia arecina

- Wallichia caryotoides

- Washingtonia filifera

- Washingtonia robusta

- Wodyetia bifurcata

 

Now, If I had a house there I would definitely try to recreate a typical tropical Hawaiian garden with common palm species used there such as cocos nucifera, adonidia merrilli, pritchardia sp., roystonea sp. , dypsis lutescens, latania loddigesii, etc. 

Thanks for the list! 

[Cluster]

That was for January, forgot to mention:) The warmest parts of Funchal are probably very close to Bermuda, the extreme lows are warmer in Funchal as it is more protected from such events.

[Pargomad]

18 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Here is my 2 cents:

In very warm and protected areas of Cyprus and similar Mediterranean, you might be able to keep them up. Not sure it would survive 30 year old extremes in these areas, though, if you do not intervene, which for a coco will be too many weeks with rain and low temperatures. It is better to have 0 degrees min/14max and sunshine for 2 days than 16/8 and rain for 2 weeks. If you have surrounding walls it gives an extra leg for sure and those that can have a mild success usually plant them in such locations by having the coco near a south wall or even more.

Your location will be warmer than all these spots, the UV will be stronger, only the sunshine remains in question and how good your soil drainage is. If indeed you have low wind that helps too. Take care of drainage first and then shelter and sunshine.

@Pargomad I do not believe we have seen that coconut in Santa Cruz do you mean the Gaula one?

Those studies of the north coast are probably wrong, the only thing you can compete with is probably the lows, but mean and high temperatures will be higher on average in the south/southwest. Why do I say this? More sunshine in the south, prevailing winds are NE, which means the Foehn effect will have an impact on the south/southwest coast more often. When the wind rotates to SW then the north might be warmer. There have been a few coastal stations before and now, one used to be in Ponta Delgada (do now know what altitude, ponta delgada can go higher up than one expects) and Porto Moniz one that is currently online. Both are cooler than Funchal, the lows of Porto Moniz are very good though. Another reason is to be addicted to the car thermometer, it is rare to see the north as warm as the south and Gaula is warm by the way, so are parts of Funchal,.

I am almost sure Center Funchal and West Funchal can be as warm as SW coast, ideally you will probably want to be on a slope in the south side 200/300 meters from the sea or so, this will give you higher max and the drainage from the slope and proximity to the sea will hold great lows.

I'm sorry I meant the Gaula one. 

I used the data available on the official Portuguese institute (IPMA) displayed on their website. It is the only detailed map we have about the island. There's nothing else available for us and I'm not sure they will conduct a rigorous study about this any time soon. Until then, we're only to speculate. 

About the Euterpe edulis, I think I read somewhere they were growing it in a hotel in Paúl do Mar, but I'm not sure if it's in a greenhouse or not.

[IlyaIvanov]

5 minutes ago, Cluster said:

That was for January, forgot to mention:) The warmest parts of Funchal are probably very close to Bermuda, the extreme lows are warmer in Funchal as it is more protected from such events.

The only negative thing about Funchal Lido is that it's soo dry, total precipitation in 2019 was 124mm! That's drier than Porto Santo (340mm)

EN_S_Precipitacao_Anual_0022.xlsx

[Cluster]

4 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

I'm sorry I meant the Gaula one. 

I used the data available on the official Portuguese institute (IPMA) displayed on their website. It is the only detailed map we have about the island. There's nothing else available for us and I'm not sure they will conduct a rigorous study about this any time soon. Until then, we're only to speculate. 

About the Euterpe edulis, I think I read somewhere they were growing it in a hotel in Paúl do Mar, but I'm not sure if it's in a greenhouse or not.

I understand but still there is no data, just modelling there, it is very hard to model Madeira. From my experience in the north, Ponta Delgada, Porto da Cruz and those cliffs near Faja da Areia in São Vicente are warm. Porto Moniz a bit windy but maybe a bit more inland and would be good. In Ponta Delgada there are pristine flowering Heliconias rostratas. Maybe Faial can ahve potential too, but usually Faial is further way from the ocean and higher altitude.

 

What location for the coconut in the north? I could check it one of these days, I am pretty sure you can grow them in the north with the right drainage and altitude. 

 

 

[Cluster]

10 minutes ago, IlyaIvanov said:

The only negative thing about Funchal Lido is that it's soo dry, total precipitation in 2019 was 124mm! That's drier than Porto Santo (340mm)

EN_S_Precipitacao_Anual_0022.xlsx 108.97 kB · 0 downloads

If you are lucky you can have a place that has access to levadas/irrigation water, then it is easier to deal with.

[Pargomad]

13 minutes ago, Cluster said:

I understand but still there is no data, just modelling there, it is very hard to model Madeira. From my experience in the north, Ponta Delgada, Porto da Cruz and those cliffs near Faja da Areia in São Vicente are warm. Porto Moniz a bit windy but maybe a bit more inland and would be good. In Ponta Delgada there are pristine flowering Heliconias rostratas. Maybe Faial can ahve potential too, but usually Faial is further way from the ocean and higher altitude.

 

What location for the coconut in the north? I could check it one of these days, I am pretty sure you can grow them in the north with the right drainage and altitude. 

 

 

I don't know, a friend of mine who is a botanist there told me there was one in Calhau (de São Jorge?) in a private garden. I never checked it. 

I really don't know, sometimes I feel there's a huge gap between what official data tells us and what it is like in reality. The only thing I'm sure about is that Madeirans don't exploit the potential of their climate to the full. Just the other day I saw they had replaced two coconut trees in a hotel by the pool in Funchal by two trachycarpus fortuneii... This species can succesfully grow here in Switzerland...    

[IlyaIvanov]

13 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

I don't know, a friend of mine who is a botanist there told me there was one in Calhau (de São Jorge?) in a private garden. I never checked it. 

I really don't know, sometimes I feel there's a huge gap between what official data tells us and what it is like in reality. The only thing I'm sure about is that Madeirans don't exploit the potential of their climate to the full. Just the other day I saw they had replaced two coconut trees in a hotel by the pool in Funchal by two trachycarpus fortuneii... This species can succesfully grow here in Switzerland...    

I grow Trachycarpus Fortuneii here in Czechia (zone 7a) It's one of the toughest plams there is. I am surprised it isn't too warm for them in Madeira.

I wonder where do they put the Cocos that they replaced. I would gladly take one 😀

Edited September 18, 2023 by IlyaIvanov

[Cluster]

14 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

I don't know, a friend of mine who is a botanist there told me there was one in Calhau (de São Jorge?) in a private garden. I never checked it. 

I really don't know, sometimes I feel there's a huge gap between what official data tells us and what it is like in reality. The only thing I'm sure about is that Madeirans don't exploit the potential of their climate to the full. Just the other day I saw they had replaced two coconut trees in a hotel by the pool in Funchal by two trachycarpus fortuneii... This species can succesfully grow here in Switzerland...    

I hate they are not aware of their potential, I don't think I know this hotel?! In any case it seems to be too late now?

[Pargomad]

22 minutes ago, Cluster said:

I hate they are not aware of their potential, I don't think I know this hotel?! In any case it seems to be too late now?

They died like 7 years ago, and I just found out they had replaced them with trachycarpus.

Here’s how the hotel looked like:

and this is now:

[IlyaIvanov]

Why did they die?

[Pargomad]

2 hours ago, IlyaIvanov said:

Why did they die?

I don't know! Probably bad care.

[Pargomad]

I just came across these photos from 15 years ago. At that time there were more coconut trees on the island, especially in Funchal at the seafront. Enjoy.

[Cluster]

I guess is is time to update the island news.

As for the coconuts that could die, this usually can happen if the palm does not get enough water or too much water or bad soil (poor drainage)/not enough soil.

The ones that are planted with enough and good soil usually fair pretty well, in fact the coconut at 200 meters altitude, Funchal, looks very nice.  After I spoke with the owner it became much better, now he does not trim the coco as much and he started adding some bunny manure to it.

[Pargomad]

I was looking at some photos of beaches in Tenerife's northern coast and La Palma today and I was wondering why there are so many differences with Madeira. I'm always amazed to see coconut trees growing on the black sand on the Canary islands, but for some reason, they never tried that in Madeira. Here are three photos of some beaches in Tenerife north and La Palma:

 

Those areas share a similar climate with the southwestern coast of Madeira: temperatures are roughly the same but the climate is drier there than in Madeira, so they need more irrigation.  Yet, you can see natural and artificial beaches full of coconut palms, which gives an exotic atmosphere to the place.

In contrast, on Madeira island, beaches usually are completely empty. Sometimes there are some date palms and london plane trees in seapromenades surrounding them.  

Praia Formosa in Funchal: 

Machico beach surrounded by london planes: 

I can't help but wonder how the island would look like if it had been colonized by Spain. I used an AI for fun and turned the photos above into a Spanish version of Madeira. Here's what I got: 

Here's another photo of Funchal nowadays. Then the Spanish version below: 

 

If Madeira were Spanish, there wouldn't be any temperate deciduous tree at sea level, (not even mediterranean trees), there would be palm trees everywhere, especially date palms, and the beaches would feature small populations of coconut trees. Unlike the Portuguese, Spaniards love palm trees and are fully aware of the potential of their climates. 

[Foxpalms]

@Pargomad I agree that they need to take advantage of Madeira's climate more, but parts of Tenerife's northern coast seem to be quite a bit warmer than Funchal. In March it got up to 38c there this year. I think they had heatwave in early August where it got up to 44c. The coconuts on the northern coast look better than the ones on the southern coasts in my opinion, likely because of the increased humidity and rainfall.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Foxpalms

[IlyaIvanov]

2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

@Pargomad I agree that they need to take advantage of Madeira's climate more, but parts of Tenerife's northern coast seem to be quite a bit warmer than Funchal. In March it got up to 38c there this year. I think they had heatwave in early August where it got up to 44c. The coconuts on the northern coast look better than the ones on the southern coasts in my opinion, likely because of the increased humidity and rainfall.

 

 

I don’t think that Google is accurate, it’s 22°C at best in February (Santa Cruz de Tenerife averages “only” 21.2°C. That’s where they have Palmetum, and Cocos looked pretty good there, because they take care of them there). It also shows that it’s 37°C in July and August which… is very wrong lol.

Most Coconuts on the north coast of Tenerife don’t look good tbh, they look beat up, probably because it’s too windy + lack of rain (yes even in the north, Wikipedia says they need at least 1000mm annually to be grown without problem, only north coast of Madeira gets that amount

Paul do Mar which is often 21°C during winter has way better looking coconuts (unfortunately they’re trimmed, but they still look better). Also, remember Gaula Cocos? It’s the best looking Cocos on the island and it’s on the east coast at 100m, not the best location at all. People on Madeira just don’t understand the potential. That’s why I’ll try growing it myself there… if everything goes well.

Edited September 27, 2023 by IlyaIvanov

[Foxpalms]

11 hours ago, IlyaIvanov said:

I don’t think that Google is accurate, it’s 22°C at best in February (Santa Cruz de Tenerife averages “only” 21.2°C. That’s where they have Palmetum, and Cocos looked pretty good there, because they take care of them there). It also shows that it’s 37°C in July and August which… is very wrong lol.

Most Coconuts on the north coast of Tenerife don’t look good tbh, they look beat up, probably because it’s too windy + lack of rain (yes even in the north, Wikipedia says they need at least 1000mm annually to be grown without problem, only north coast of Madeira gets that amount

Paul do Mar which is often 21°C during winter has way better looking coconuts (unfortunately they’re trimmed, but they still look better). Also, remember Gaula Cocos? It’s the best looking Cocos on the island and it’s on the east coast at 100m, not the best location at all. People on Madeira just don’t understand the potential. That’s why I’ll try growing it myself there… if everything goes well.

The coconuts in Puerto de la Cruz looked good last time I was there they just looked overtimmed and slightly underwatered. The ones in the south that were not on irrigation looked very neglected. The top two were taken in the north bottom ones are in the south. The ones in Santa Cruz de teneifre look pretty good, the ones in the swimming pool area and the palmetum but the ones near the shipping area and the one planted along playa de Las Teresitas look like they need a lot more water.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Pargomad]

I

6 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

@Pargomad I agree that they need to take advantage of Madeira's climate more, but parts of Tenerife's northern coast seem to be quite a bit warmer than Funchal. In March it got up to 38c there this year. I think they had heatwave in early August where it got up to 44c. The coconuts on the northern coast look better than the ones on the southern coasts in my opinion, likely because of the increased humidity and rainfall.

 

 

I am actually talking about standard climate values over a period of thirty years. For example, these are the mean temperatures for Santa Cruz de Tenerife (1991-2020):

As you can see, Santa Cruz's climate could be classified as tropical with mean temperatures above 18 C in the coldest months, if it weren't for the precipitation value that is too low for it to be considered as a tropical savanna climate (As) according to Köppen-Geiger.  Unfortunately there's no official data for Puerto de la Cruz or Punta del Hidalgo up north, but we can extrapolate the data above to approximately the same values, maybe a little lower and with higher precipitation. (I have read in this forum somewhere that Puerto de la Cruz has now transitionned into a tropical savanna climate As due to its higher precipitation).

Same thing applies for La Palma airport, located on the eastern coast. Again, precipitation values are low, which qualifies its climate as hot semi-arid (BSh) eventhough it has the minimum requirement to be considered as a tropical climate in terms of temperature.  

Bajamar beach in Santa Cruz de La Palma, just a few km north from the airport:

Coconut trees in Santa Cruz de Tenerife:

Madeira's southwestern coast roughly reaches these temperatures, with maybe 0.5-1 degree of difference due to its latitude, which is definitely not a huge difference. Funchal's observatory station isn't really a good example in terms of temperature because it is located in the "coldest" part of the city in the east up a cliff.  There's another station in the Lido area just a few km west that has proved to be more than 1 degree warmer than the observatory, especially in Winter. In the coldest months, whilst the observatory values reach 19 20 as the highest temperatures, the Lido easily hits 21 degrees, just like Santa Cruz de Tenerife or La Palma airport. Same thing applies to the Lugar de baixo station, the only one we have in the southwestern coast and yet again, not the best located. There are warmer areas in protected fajãs (flat surfaces at sea level usually surrounded and protected by cliffs) like Paúl do Mar, where the first fruiting coconut palms have been sighted. In fact, the coastline between Lido and Paúl do Mar is less than 1 degree to be considered as a tropical savanna climate (As). That is why I consider the northern coast of Tenerife and La Palma islands to share a similar climate with the south west of Madeira. So it would totally be possible to grow coconut palms on the southwestern beaches, if they are met with proper care and irrigation (eventhough it is less dry than the Canary islands, it would still need water in Summer). In fact, coconut palms can grow up to 200 m. in the south. 

I think we can all agree here that the scarcity of coconut palms on the island can be explained by the local's lack of knowledge and interest in tropical palm trees. Madeirans and Portuguese people in general are not as fond of palm trees as their Spanish counterparts. Besides, they're not fully aware of their climate potential in terms of temperature. Coconut palms do survive and grow there without any protection, and even bear fruits at some locations. They're just not used as an ornamental palm tree and the ones that grow there are not being taken good care of.  

Actually, the same thing happens on the Canary islands where lots of coconut palms die of thirst or mistreatment.

Beach in Puerto de la Cruz 2009 vs 2023, only two coconut palms have survived over the years: 

 

 

[IlyaIvanov]

54 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

The coconuts in Puerto de la Cruz looked good last time I was there they just looked overtimmed and slightly underwatered. The ones in the south that were not on irrigation looked very neglected. The top two were taken in the north bottom ones are in the south. The ones in Santa Cruz de teneifre look pretty good, the ones in the swimming pool area and the palmetum but the ones near the shipping area and the one planted along playa de Las Teresitas look like they need a lot more water.

 

 

Yes I agree! they look really good, this really shows how important watering is. I feel bad for the ones in the south they look really sad.

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, Pargomad said:

I

I am actually talking about standard climate values over a period of thirty years. For example, these are the mean temperatures for Santa Cruz de Tenerife (1991-2020):

As you can see, Santa Cruz's climate could be classified as tropical with mean temperatures above 18 C in the coldest months, if it weren't for the precipitation value that is too low for it to be considered as a tropical savanna climate (As) according to Köppen-Geiger.  Unfortunately there's no official data for Puerto de la Cruz or Punta del Hidalgo up north, but we can extrapolate the data above to approximately the same values, maybe a little lower and with higher precipitation. (I have read in this forum somewhere that Puerto de la Cruz has now transitionned into a tropical savanna climate As due to its higher precipitation).

Same thing applies for La Palma airport, located on the eastern coast. Again, precipitation values are low, which qualifies its climate as hot semi-arid (BSh) eventhough it has the minimum requirement to be considered as a tropical climate in terms of temperature.  

Bajamar beach in Santa Cruz de La Palma, just a few km north from the airport:

Coconut trees in Santa Cruz de Tenerife:

Madeira's southwestern coast roughly reaches these temperatures, with maybe 0.5-1 degree of difference due to its latitude, which is definitely not a huge difference. Funchal's observatory station isn't really a good example in terms of temperature because it is located in the "coldest" part of the city in the east up a cliff.  There's another station in the Lido area just a few km west that has proved to be more than 1 degree warmer than the observatory, especially in Winter. In the coldest months, whilst the observatory values reach 19 20 as the highest temperatures, the Lido easily hits 21 degrees, just like Santa Cruz de Tenerife or La Palma airport. Same thing applies to the Lugar de baixo station, the only one we have in the southwestern coast and yet again, not the best located. There are warmer areas in protected fajãs (flat surfaces at sea level usually surrounded and protected by cliffs) like Paúl do Mar, where the first fruiting coconut palms have been sighted. In fact, the coastline between Lido and Paúl do Mar is less than 1 degree to be considered as a tropical savanna climate (As). That is why I consider the northern coast of Tenerife and La Palma islands to share a similar climate with the south west of Madeira. So it would totally be possible to grow coconut palms on the southwestern beaches, if they are met with proper care and irrigation (eventhough it is less dry than the Canary islands, it would still need water in Summer). In fact, coconut palms can grow up to 200 m. in the south. 

I think we can all agree here that the scarcity of coconut palms on the island can be explained by the local's lack of knowledge and interest in tropical palm trees. Madeirans and Portuguese people in general are not as fond of palm trees as their Spanish counterparts. Besides, they're not fully aware of their climate potential in terms of temperature. Coconut palms do survive and grow there without any protection, and even bear fruits at some locations. They're just not used as an ornamental palm tree and the ones that grow there are not being taken good care of.  

Actually, the same thing happens on the Canary islands where lots of coconut palms die of thirst or mistreatment.

Beach in Puerto de la Cruz 2009 vs 2023, only two coconut palms have survived over the years: 

 

 

I don't know what happened at that beach in Puerto de la Cruz but at the other one in the background they are all still there and I don't think any of them died and when I was there they were fruiting. The ones near the bahia hotel and at the Lago Martiánez are also all still there. I think it would be best though if they irrigated them. Santa Cruz de Tenerife is tropical as it's over 18c but in the center of the city it's also a bit warmer than where the official weather station is due to the urban heat island effect which is shown by the private weather stations around there. In late March/ April when I was there Puerto de la Cruz was the warmest area. The temperature during the day was warmer than anywhere in the south or Santa Cruz however the night temps were similar. The only place that had warmer night temps was Santa Cruz de Tenerife inside the urban heat island by about 0.5c and masca beach which is in an extremely protected area. Puerto de la Cruz de was also more humid than anywhere else. (This was during a heatwave) but when I got off the plane in the south the temperature was 36c and it was a dry heat and when I got to Puerto de la Cruz the temperature was 38c with significantly higher humidity.  From what I experienced I would guess Puerto de la Cruz is warmer than Santa Cruz de Tenerife during the day and maybe slightly cooler at night. When the wind is coming from the west/north the south and eastern northern areas are more protected hence why it's drier over there as that's where the Atlantic rain comes from however during Saharan heatwaves from the east the fohen effect swaps direction meaning Puerto de la Cruz is significantly warmer. The wunderground station in Paul do Mar shows the temperature is over 18c during the coldest month of the year. They definitely though put a lot of effort into planting nice tropicals in Tenerife. Everyday wherever I was on the island I always saw landscapers doing something to do with planting new plants. Whilst obviously there are a lot of Washingtonias and the native palm CIDPS there royal Palms, bottle palms, sabals, adonidias, sabals, Chrysalidocarpus, livistonas ect. A lot of variety compared to other places in Europe. 

[Foxpalms]

2 hours ago, IlyaIvanov said:

Yes I agree! they look really good, this really shows how important watering is. I feel bad for the ones in the south they look really sad.

There are some nice ones in the south too but all are irrigated. The irrigation there is probably even more important as it's drier + lower humidity. 

[Pargomad]

 

32 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I don't know what happened at that beach in Puerto de la Cruz but at the other one in the background they are all still there and I don't think any of them died and when I was there they were fruiting. The ones near the bahia hotel and at the Lago Martiánez are also all still there. I think it would be best though if they irrigated them. Santa Cruz de Tenerife is tropical as it's over 18c but in the center of the city it's also a bit warmer than where the official weather station is due to the urban heat island effect which is shown by the private weather stations around there. In late March/ April when I was there Puerto de la Cruz was the warmest area. The temperature during the day was warmer than anywhere in the south or Santa Cruz however the night temps were similar. The only place that had warmer night temps was Santa Cruz de Tenerife inside the urban heat island by about 0.5c and masca beach which is in an extremely protected area. Puerto de la Cruz de was also more humid than anywhere else. (This was during a heatwave) but when I got off the plane in the south the temperature was 36c and it was a dry heat and when I got to Puerto de la Cruz the temperature was 38c with significantly higher humidity.  From what I experienced I would guess Puerto de la Cruz is warmer than Santa Cruz de Tenerife during the day and maybe slightly cooler at night. When the wind is coming from the west/north the south and eastern northern areas are more protected hence why it's drier over there as that's where the Atlantic rain comes from however during Saharan heatwaves from the east the fohen effect swaps direction meaning Puerto de la Cruz is significantly warmer. The wunderground station in Paul do Mar shows the temperature is over 18c during the coldest month of the year. They definitely though put a lot of effort into planting nice tropicals in Tenerife. Everyday wherever I was on the island I always saw landscapers doing something to do with planting new plants. Whilst obviously there are a lot of Washingtonias and the native palm CIDPS there royal Palms, bottle palms, sabals, adonidias, sabals, Chrysalidocarpus, livistonas ect. A lot of variety compared to other places in Europe. 

So yes, they did die or/and were removed at some point. These ones were at la playa grande beach. Those you show on your photographs are from playa del castillo.

2009:

2023:

Here's another example of dying coconut palms in Tazacorte, on La Palma island. I suspect overtrimming and lack of irrigation (along with nutrient deficiency). 

2011:

2023:

2011:

2023:

I've also seen the same phenomenon on Madeira island. 

[IlyaIvanov]

3 hours ago, Pargomad said:

 

So yes, they did die or/and were removed at some point. These ones were at la playa grande beach. Those you show on your photographs are from playa del castillo.

2009:

2023:

Here's another example of dying coconut palms in Tazacorte, on La Palma island. I suspect overtrimming and lack of irrigation (along with nutrient deficiency). 

2011:

2023:

2011:

2023:

I've also seen the same phenomenon on Madeira island. 

If I had enough money I’d buy a property in the south west coast of Madeira, and try growing lots of Cocos. But north coast is much more appealing to me, sorry guys haha. But I might be the first person to try successfully growing Cocos in the north. I know Sao Vicente is far from being the best location for tropical palms but I’ll try my best, image how cool it would look with the surrounding landscape, just like in Hawaii. I’d plant it near the south facing wall, it will be very protected area, hell I might even protect it with fleece or something for a few months, I’m sure it would make it. Also SV has some major advantages over other places (high rainfall, humidity, protection from the wind and salty air from the ocean). It also might be one the sunniest places in the north because the valley is so vast and stretches to the south. But I’ll need your help first because I don’t even know where to get Coconut Palm in Madeira, so much work ahead, but we’ll see…

Edited September 27, 2023 by IlyaIvanov

[Pargomad]

8 hours ago, IlyaIvanov said:

If I had enough money I’d buy a property in the south west coast of Madeira, and try growing lots of Cocos. But north coast is much more appealing to me, sorry guys haha. But I might be the first person to try successfully growing Cocos in the north. I know Sao Vicente is far from being the best location for tropical palms but I’ll try my best, image how cool it would look with the surrounding landscape, just like in Hawaii. I’d plant it near the south facing wall, it will be very protected area, hell I might even protect it with fleece or something for a few months, I’m sure it would make it. Also SV has some major advantages over other places (high rainfall, humidity, protection from the wind and salty air from the ocean). It also might be one the sunniest places in the north because the valley is so vast and stretches to the south. But I’ll need your help first because I don’t even know where to get Coconut Palm in Madeira, so much work ahead, but we’ll see…

Try some plant nurseries like the one in Tabua, back in 2011 they had a few exemplars for sale as you can see on the photo above. 

[IlyaIvanov]

On 9/28/2023 at 10:10 AM, Pargomad said:

Try some plant nurseries like the one in Tabua, back in 2011 they had a few exemplars for sale as you can see on the photo above. 

Awesome, thank you! Hopefully they still have them there.

[Cluster]

On 9/28/2023 at 12:32 AM, IlyaIvanov said:

If I had enough money I’d buy a property in the south west coast of Madeira, and try growing lots of Cocos. But north coast is much more appealing to me, sorry guys haha. But I might be the first person to try successfully growing Cocos in the north. I know Sao Vicente is far from being the best location for tropical palms but I’ll try my best, image how cool it would look with the surrounding landscape, just like in Hawaii. I’d plant it near the south facing wall, it will be very protected area, hell I might even protect it with fleece or something for a few months, I’m sure it would make it. Also SV has some major advantages over other places (high rainfall, humidity, protection from the wind and salty air from the ocean). It also might be one the sunniest places in the north because the valley is so vast and stretches to the south. But I’ll need your help first because I don’t even know where to get Coconut Palm in Madeira, so much work ahead, but we’ll see…

 

Hello @IlyaIvanov

 

It is nice to see someone that loves topicals/palms heading to Madeira, looking forward to it! Feel free to contact me if you need any guidance, I spend a lot of time on the island.

Another place you can try is a nursery like Tulipa in Funchal, they seem to sell the Dutch greenhouse Malayan dwarfs coconuts seedlings, which might need some baby sitting, for the first year.

Lidl is coming to Funchal soon and always sells those Dutch cocos during late spring/early summer and it is a lot cheaper.

I think it is also possible to order some Coconuts from Canary Islands.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Cluster

[Cluster]

Hello, it is time to update the thread:)

 

Here are some of the cocos I visited during 2023 winter and summer.

Starting with the marina which is being revamped, this was just taken before they took the Malayan Dwarf from its place and started the ground works:

 

Most coconuts had fruits and one of them has plenty! This is mainly due to less human intervention removing them as people will no longer access the walking path for at least 2 years.

 

 

 

Dwarf before:

And now currently:

 

The washingtonia has died , the dwarf still has a few fronds but in shock, I am not sure they are giving it enough soil/water for this process:( It will be a shame if it dies as I do not know many more dwarfs on the island.

 

One can only wonder how good these would do with automatic irrigation, more soil and less trimming.

Edited January 17 by Cluster

[Cluster]

A few more coconuts:

Almirante Reis Coconut in Funchal:

 

 

 

 

ev

Ever since it got irrigation this coconut has been growing and growing, it has very large fronds, it does not seem to be the same variety as the marina cocos.

Next we have the coconut from Penha de França hotel in Funchal:

I am pretty sure this coconut is close to fruit, however you can notice the surrounding area is breaking apart with its roots.

 

Next up we have what appears to be the only Golden Dwarf from Lugar de Baixo:

 

If it is indeed a dwarf then I expect that in a few years it will be fruiting as well.

 

Finally the Gaula coconut, looking pristine and fruiting at 100 m (328 ft) elevation:

This one was taken during the winter

This last one taken during summer.

 

I wonder how warm Gaula is, considering this is one if not the best looking coconut and it is at 100 m elevation. Of course lack of much trimming and other variables matter as much or more. 

When one looks at the map it does not look exceptionally warm, but I am inclined to believe there is a hot micro climate there.

 

[Cluster]

A few pictures that were taken last year during some hiking and travelling on the island:

[IlyaIvanov]

2 hours ago, Cluster said:

A few pictures that were taken last year during some hiking and travelling on the island:

Nice pictures!

[IlyaIvanov]

2 hours ago, Cluster said:

A few more coconuts:

Almirante Reis Coconut in Funchal:

 

 

 

 

ev

Ever since it got irrigation this coconut has been growing and growing, it has very large fronds, it does not seem to be the same variety as the marina cocos.

Next we have the coconut from Penha de França hotel in Funchal:

I am pretty sure this coconut is close to fruit, however you can notice the surrounding area is breaking apart with its roots.

 

Next up we have what appears to be the only Golden Dwarf from Lugar de Baixo:

 

If it is indeed a dwarf then I expect that in a few years it will be fruiting as well.

 

Finally the Gaula coconut, looking pristine and fruiting at 100 m (328 ft) elevation:

This one was taken during the winter

This last one taken during summer.

 

I wonder how warm Gaula is, considering this is one if not the best looking coconut and it is at 100 m elevation. Of course lack of much trimming and other variables matter as much or more. 

When one looks at the map it does not look exceptionally warm, but I am inclined to believe there is a hot micro climate there.

 

That Gaula Coconut almost looks like as if it was growing in Hawaii or Florida. It looks very healthy, even lower fronds are green which is rare. But it's location doesn't look like it's anything special. Gaula should probably have similar temps to Santa Cruz, which we know is not the best location for Coconut, it really gives me hope that I might actually grow a decent Coconut in SV. Do you think that it could be a different variety of a Coconut? For example the Dwarf Coconut in marina always looked the best compared to others in marina.

[Cluster]

21 hours ago, IlyaIvanov said:

That Gaula Coconut almost looks like as if it was growing in Hawaii or Florida. It looks very healthy, even lower fronds are green which is rare. But it's location doesn't look like it's anything special. Gaula should probably have similar temps to Santa Cruz, which we know is not the best location for Coconut, it really gives me hope that I might actually grow a decent Coconut in SV. Do you think that it could be a different variety of a Coconut? For example the Dwarf Coconut in marina always looked the best compared to others in marina.

The Gaula coconut is a tall variety looking at the trunk. It is probably a different variety than the marina coconuts come from Canaries as this one came from Venezuela, so chances are they are different. However I have noticed a couple of things, Santa Cruz airport Station is a lot windier than Santa Cruz the real town, even if they are very close to each other.  Gaula is more sheltered as well, so maybe we should not judge it based on the airport station, besides whenever the car is near Gaula it usually has a warm reading. 

Another reason might be just good soil and irrigation and overall good care. The soil is crucial for the development of a good coconut, especially in not perfect weather, they require very good drainage to withstand rain in cool weather. 

[Pargomad]

On 1/17/2024 at 1:07 AM, Cluster said:

Hello, it is time to update the thread:)

 

Here are some of the cocos I visited during 2023 winter and summer.

Starting with the marina which is being revamped, this was just taken before they took the Malayan Dwarf from its place and started the ground works:

 

Most coconuts had fruits and one of them has plenty! This is mainly due to less human intervention removing them as people will no longer access the walking path for at least 2 years.

 

 

 

Dwarf before:

And now currently:

 

The washingtonia has died , the dwarf still has a few fronds but in shock, I am not sure they are giving it enough soil/water for this process:( It will be a shame if it dies as I do not know many more dwarfs on the island.

 

One can only wonder how good these would do with automatic irrigation, more soil and less trimming.

Thanks for the update! I haven't been there this year unfortunately and I don't know when I'll go back. These coconut trees remind me of the ones I saw in Maspalomas last November, which is warmer and drier than Madeira. They also had fruits on them, some of them a few, others were full.  I do hope the dwarf one recovers soon though. It still has some fronds but I'm not sure it will survive. At least they tried to preserve them, which surprised me. 

I'm also surprised by the Gaula coconut palm fruiting at 100 m. I've been told for years that coconut trees first would never grow on Madeira island, then they wouldn't never fruit and here we are with these cocos that can grow up to 200 m. and fruit at 100 m. Madeira's climate has always been underestimated and here's the proof.  I'm looking forward to seeing more updates soon. 

[Getta Robo]

Hello there friends! It's been a while.

@IlyaIvanov, best of luck for your project! My suggestion here would be, to get in contact with the island's municipality or town hall.

I presume all those coconuts were germinated and planted by the island's landscape department, therefore should know much more about it, and possible provide with coconut palms.

@Cluster would it be possible to get in contact with them, as you speak Portuguese? Perhaps we could sign a letter as a community asking to further distribute those cocos in the island, and see if can collaborate with a nursery in order to multiple and sell them.

Fingers crossed for the best outcome possible!

[Cluster]

On 1/19/2024 at 10:58 PM, Pargomad said:

Thanks for the update! I haven't been there this year unfortunately and I don't know when I'll go back. These coconut trees remind me of the ones I saw in Maspalomas last November, which is warmer and drier than Madeira. They also had fruits on them, some of them a few, others were full.  I do hope the dwarf one recovers soon though. It still has some fronds but I'm not sure it will survive. At least they tried to preserve them, which surprised me. 

I'm also surprised by the Gaula coconut palm fruiting at 100 m. I've been told for years that coconut trees first would never grow on Madeira island, then they wouldn't never fruit and here we are with these cocos that can grow up to 200 m. and fruit at 100 m. Madeira's climate has always been underestimated and here's the proof.  I'm looking forward to seeing more updates soon. 

I agree it is very underestimated, but I wonder if we are even measuring it well as well.

The coconut at 200 m is improving now as the owner has been fertilizing it since 2 years ago and leaving more fronds. It would be awesome if it ever fruits.

The coconut near our place at 135-140 m has fruited once 2 years ago, but then all the palms got a disease in that summer and everything was looking bad, I thought they were going to lose it. It looked like some boron deficiency, but it has recovered ever since and looking stronger and stronger, maybe it will fruit again.

[Cluster]

8 hours ago, Getta Robo said:

 

@Cluster would it be possible to get in contact with them, as you speak Portuguese? Perhaps we could sign a letter as a community asking to further distribute those cocos in the island, and see if can collaborate with a nursery in order to multiple and sell them.

Fingers crossed for the best outcome possible!

Well I have done my share trying to talk with a lot of people during the Marina project, I am not sure I had an impact or not, but they are trying to protect them.

As far as I know no one is germinating coconuts from the few coconuts on the island, we are talking about maybe 25-30 coconuts total, some public, some private on the entire island as far as I am aware. The public coconuts are always trimmed including their fruits, as for the private ones like the Paul do Mar, the owners did not even know they had coconuts fruiting. 

All in all people are not very aware I would say, there is a nursery in Tabua that sells coconuts, but those are probably imported.

[Cluster]

And here is the highest elevation coconut that I know on the island at 200m:

 

It looks pretty strong considering the circumstances. It is not as tall as you think it is, since the soil level goes up to around 1 m below the front wall. Who knows maybe it will fruit if the owner keeps taking care of it, during the last years it has been growing faster.

And here is the neighbor's coconut at around 140 m elevation:

Like I said before this coconut has started fruiting in the summer of 2022, but then it got a disease along the other palms, it looked like boron deficiency and it almost died, it stopped fruiting and the fronds had a lot of wrinkles and the new spears were dark, like they had burned. Fortunately as you can see it has since recovered and has very wide leaflets and strong color.  The only problem is that it gets too trimmed to ease the passage of people in the property. I am pretty sure it will fruit again, however being a lonely coconut like the Gaula one, it will be hard to get proper pollination as it is not a dwarf and so the self pollinating aspect is very rare.

 

Next up we have Paul do Mar coconuts, there are two of them in the property, however I only photographed one this time around while trying a new camera:

 

This coconut is one of the best looking on the island, but I never got to see it with the crown full, again the trimming is present and it always looks like this, you can t tell a winter picture from a summer one apart as these do not suffer. There could be a potential problem with salt for some species as the property is very close to the sea, fortunately salt just helps coconuts being happier to be honest.

 

@Getta Robo

These private coconuts could be a possibility for harvesting as the owners seem to be very nice (they let me inside once to photograph the coconuts) and they have the climate and they also have 2 coconuts which helps with the pollination. In theory these could germinate once they fully ripen, but maybe someone with more experience can comment on this:)

 

Finally we have a new coconut showing up in the thread:

 

 

This was taken a few days ago, the coconut is above Praia Formosa in Funchal, it is a very healthy one. One day I will try to use a zoom lens instead of my smartphone to see more clearly if it is starting to fruit.

Edited January 21 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

22 hours ago, Cluster said:

And here is the highest elevation coconut that I know on the island at 200m:

 

It looks pretty strong considering the circumstances. It is not as tall as you think it is, since the soil level goes up to around 1 m below the front wall. Who knows maybe it will fruit if the owner keeps taking care of it, during the last years it has been growing faster.

And here is the neighbor's coconut at around 140 m elevation:

Like I said before this coconut has started fruiting in the summer of 2022, but then it got a disease along the other palms, it looked like boron deficiency and it almost died, it stopped fruiting and the fronds had a lot of wrinkles and the new spears were dark, like they had burned. Fortunately as you can see it has since recovered and has very wide leaflets and strong color.  The only problem is that it gets too trimmed to ease the passage of people in the property. I am pretty sure it will fruit again, however being a lonely coconut like the Gaula one, it will be hard to get proper pollination as it is not a dwarf and so the self pollinating aspect is very rare.

 

Next up we have Paul do Mar coconuts, there are two of them in the property, however I only photographed one this time around while trying a new camera:

 

This coconut is one of the best looking on the island, but I never got to see it with the crown full, again the trimming is present and it always looks like this, you can t tell a winter picture from a summer one apart as these do not suffer. There could be a potential problem with salt for some species as the property is very close to the sea, fortunately salt just helps coconuts being happier to be honest.

 

@Getta Robo

These private coconuts could be a possibility for harvesting as the owners seem to be very nice (they let me inside once to photograph the coconuts) and they have the climate and they also have 2 coconuts which helps with the pollination. In theory these could germinate once they fully ripen, but maybe someone with more experience can comment on this:)

 

Finally we have a new coconut showing up in the thread:

 

 

This was taken a few days ago, the coconut is above Praia Formosa in Funchal, it is a very healthy one. One day I will try to use a zoom lens instead of my smartphone to see more clearly if it is starting to fruit.

Finally some good news, the first coconut looks really good considering its location. Another proof of Madeira’s mild climate. 
your neighbor’s coconut is fighting for space with the syagrus growing side by side. 
Regarding the coconut trees of Paul do Mar, I’ve talked to someone who brought some cocos from Costa Rica and he and his brother are growing them in Paul do Mar and Funchal, they’re even willing to sell the seeds. 
The last one looks beautiful, where is it exactly?