Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island

[Cluster]

30 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

Finally some good news, the first coconut looks really good considering its location. Another proof of Madeira’s mild climate. 
your neighbor’s coconut is fighting for space with the syagrus growing side by side. 
Regarding the coconut trees of Paul do Mar, I’ve talked to someone who brought some cocos from Costa Rica and he and his brother are growing them in Paul do Mar and Funchal, they’re even willing to sell the seeds. 
The last one looks beautiful, where is it exactly? 

Hello, the coconut is located in arieiro de baixo, basically on top of praia formosa.

@Pargomad Do you have pictures of these Paul do Mar coconuts and the ones in Funchal? Can they confirm they can sprout madeira coconuts? This would be the first confirmed Madeiran Coconuts!

[Pargomad]

28 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Hello, the coconut is located in arieiro de baixo, basically on top of praia formosa.

@Pargomad Do you have pictures of these Paul do Mar coconuts and the ones in Funchal? Can they confirm they can sprout madeira coconuts? This would be the first confirmed Madeiran Coconuts!

Thank you!

No I don’t, it was just a comment on Facebook, they brought seeds from Costa Rica and apparently the coconut trees are doing well in Paul do Mar and Funchal, I think they’re still juvenile.

[Cluster]

More winter pictures:

 

 

 

[Pargomad]

38 minutes ago, Cluster said:

More winter pictures:

 

 

 

Love your photos. How’s the weather been there? I heard it’s been pretty warm.

Edited January 22 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

I have returned to Lisbon a few days ago, the weather has been warmer than usual on the island, we had a week in which it rained a bit more than usual, only good place to be was in the north during those days:)

This week the weather will be very warm and always sunny, I wonder if February will be warmer too. This would give a big boost to the coconuts on the island, hopefully my neighbor's coconut will flower again.

I was in Ponta Delgada in a house during an afternoon, it is impressive how luxurious that place is, it is also a place with barely any wind most of the times, the climate is good to be honest. The owner had a bunch of exotics, lychee, pitaya, jabuticaba, longan, mangoes, carambola, anonas and a few more things. He was also planting Theobroma cacau and I am trying to convince him to get a coconut:). I wonder if the cacau will thrive, though, the rest already thrives.

I am curious about the North Potential, that IPMA map you posted before suggests something like Rocha do Navio in costal Santana or Faja do Mar in Faial have higher mean temps in winter than Lido Funchal or Paul do Mar, however I doubt this is possible, I am not even sure they get sun during the winter months. Having said that there was an old station in Ponta Delgada but it was at 136 m elevation so not that close to the sea and with less sun exposure than the outer part of Ponta Delgada, I only know the mean temps for 1951 - 1980 for that station and that the extreme lows are higher than Funchal Observatory, meaning it gets cooler in Lanzarote in the worst year than Ponta Delgada Coastal area.

Edited January 22 by Cluster

[Cluster]

I did not take many pictures of Ponta Delgada but here are a few:

 

 

[Pargomad]

19 hours ago, Cluster said:

I have returned to Lisbon a few days ago, the weather has been warmer than usual on the island, we had a week in which it rained a bit more than usual, only good place to be was in the north during those days:)

This week the weather will be very warm and always sunny, I wonder if February will be warmer too. This would give a big boost to the coconuts on the island, hopefully my neighbor's coconut will flower again.

I was in Ponta Delgada in a house during an afternoon, it is impressive how luxurious that place is, it is also a place with barely any wind most of the times, the climate is good to be honest. The owner had a bunch of exotics, lychee, pitaya, jabuticaba, longan, mangoes, carambola, anonas and a few more things. He was also planting Theobroma cacau and I am trying to convince him to get a coconut:). I wonder if the cacau will thrive, though, the rest already thrives.

I am curious about the North Potential, that IPMA map you posted before suggests something like Rocha do Navio in costal Santana or Faja do Mar in Faial have higher mean temps in winter than Lido Funchal or Paul do Mar, however I doubt this is possible, I am not even sure they get sun during the winter months. Having said that there was an old station in Ponta Delgada but it was at 136 m elevation so not that close to the sea and with less sun exposure than the outer part of Ponta Delgada, I only know the mean temps for 1951 - 1980 for that station and that the extreme lows are higher than Funchal Observatory, meaning it gets cooler in Lanzarote in the worst year than Ponta Delgada Coastal area.

I also think Ponta Delgada has some potential. It is one of the most “tropical” place of the North, just imagine some coconut trees growing in this lush landscape. The only thing that throws it away is the vineyards that kind of “cool down” the general tropical vibe. 

[Pargomad]

Fun fact of the day: I just found this photo of a family planting some juvenile coconut trees on the beach in Porto Santo back in the 50’s. I wonder if this family owns the house by the beach with the three coconut trees today. 

[Cluster]

That is a good intro to the next topic for tomorrow:)

[Cluster]

I had the opportunity to spend some days in September, on the island of Porto Santo.

Just a few minutes before we arrived on land.

We had the first rains/storm and the water was also less calm than usual, but other than that the weather was great.

I brought a thermometer with me and the lows were way higher than up in the official airport station.

 

Location was the above.

 

On our way to the beach we see many CIDPs, papayas and other tropical plantations:

 

The water was at 25/26 C during my stay, it was a nice temperature, just perfect.

 

And of course I had to check what was up with the three coconuts we know on the island. It was not easy and I had to ask a friend to help me with a Pixel smartphone for extra zooms.

Without further due:

 

 

 

Pixel zooms:

 

 

 

I think they might need a bit more watering and maybe some fertilizer could help but they are ok, all can flower:)

 

[IlyaIvanov]

13 minutes ago, Cluster said:

I had the opportunity to spend some days in September, on the island of Porto Santo.

Just a few minutes before we arrived on land.

We had the first rains/storm and the water was also less calm than usual, but other than that the weather was great.

I brought a thermometer with me and the lows were way higher than up in the official airport station.

 

Location was the above.

 

On our way to the beach we see many CIDPs, papayas and other tropical plantations:

 

The water was at 25/26 C during my stay, it was a nice temperature, just perfect.

 

And of course I had to check what was up with the three coconuts we know on the island. It was not easy and I had to ask a friend to help me with a Pixel smartphone for extra zooms.

Without further due:

 

 

 

Pixel zooms:

 

 

 

I think they might need a bit more watering and maybe some fertilizer could help but they are ok, all can flower:)

 

Amazing! They look great on the sandy beach, very tropical looking!

Edited January 24 by IlyaIvanov

[Cluster]

Here are a few more pictures from Porto Santo, tomorrow I share other news from Madeira.

During my stay I tried to visit some parts of the island, we started by visiting a famous viewpoint.

 

 

We then found some pretty neat swimming pools.

 

 

 

These were great and had some nice snorkeling spots

 

 

We also so a small canyon.

 

 

 

 

Quite a big contrast compared to Madeira!

[Pargomad]

On 1/24/2024 at 10:34 PM, Cluster said:

I had the opportunity to spend some days in September, on the island of Porto Santo.

Just a few minutes before we arrived on land.

We had the first rains/storm and the water was also less calm than usual, but other than that the weather was great.

I brought a thermometer with me and the lows were way higher than up in the official airport station.

 

Location was the above.

 

On our way to the beach we see many CIDPs, papayas and other tropical plantations:

 

The water was at 25/26 C during my stay, it was a nice temperature, just perfect.

 

And of course I had to check what was up with the three coconuts we know on the island. It was not easy and I had to ask a friend to help me with a Pixel smartphone for extra zooms.

Without further due:

 

 

 

Pixel zooms:

 

 

 

I think they might need a bit more watering and maybe some fertilizer could help but they are ok, all can flower:)

 

Awesome, they look fine considering how north they are. They even flower and fruit, they need more water though. Thanks for the updates! 

[Pargomad]

On 1/28/2024 at 10:34 PM, Cluster said:

Here are a few more pictures from Porto Santo, tomorrow I share other news from Madeira.

During my stay I tried to visit some parts of the island, we started by visiting a famous viewpoint.

 

 

We then found some pretty neat swimming pools.

 

 

 

These were great and had some nice snorkeling spots

 

 

We also so a small canyon.

 

 

 

 

Quite a big contrast compared to Madeira!

Beautiful photos! Porto Santo’s climate is semiarid and the island’s full of phoenix canariensis, they even became subspontaneous there, especially around abandoned houses and rivers. The island’s natural vegetation disappeared and in the XX century, they introduced Mediterranean pine trees and Californian cypresses to fight the ongoing desertification. The island has a very Mediterranean look in terms of ornamental trees, not very tropical.
 

[Cluster]

9 hours ago, Pargomad said:

Beautiful photos! Porto Santo’s climate is semiarid and the island’s full of phoenix canariensis, they even became subspontaneous there, especially around abandoned houses and rivers. The island’s natural vegetation disappeared and in the XX century, they introduced Mediterranean pine trees and Californian cypresses to fight the ongoing desertification. The island has a very Mediterranean look in terms of ornamental trees, not very tropical.
 

It is a very Mediterranean look for sure, however when you look at the private gardens you see a lot of papayas some cavendish bananas, delonix regias and a few other things less common in the Mediterranean. What happened to Porto Santo that caused the island to lose it's natural vegetation? Indeed I did read a bit while there about the ongoing plantations to reforest the island.

By the way the water quality and transparency (not just the color) is top tier in Porto Santo, you can see really far once underwater.

 

We did some hiking as well and had access to some scenic views.

 

 

 

We still had time to check some viewpoints and some flora during the next days.

 

 

In these last 2 you can see part of the process of reforestation.

 

 

Unfortunately we were in the middle of a storm so the sea was not as pristine:) 

 

In terms of palms what I saw mostly was CIDP and Date palms, besides those, I think I also saw some royals, king palms and of course those coconuts.

 

 

 

Having taken the thermometer I realized that indeed the coast of Porto Santo has some very good lows, if one has access to water I see no problems handling coconuts and something more tropical!

 

Feel free to add these to the Porto Santo thread with the news you find:)

Edited January 30 by Cluster

[Cluster]

Hello everyone, so today I wanted to discuss the possibility of germinating viable coconut seeds in Madeira and also how further can we go in terms of tropical species.

As used to seeing Coconuts at different altitudes on the island and having seen many fruiting coconuts, I have never seen someone germinating one.

The reasons could be several, from the climate not being warm enough, to the massive trimming of the fruits you see in the public and even private ones, or maybe you just need good fertilizer/water to make sure that the fruit will develop properly and become viable one day when fully ripe, on top of this the coconuts are usually solitary which reduces their chance of pollination. I do believe the biggest contributor is the very low sample we have on the island, maybe we have 25-30 coconuts total, from the public to the private ones. I also do not know about the Canary islands, however there seems to be a lot more people there dedicated to zone pushing and producing various tropical seedlings, most likely it is viable to produce coconut seedlings in this region.

In any case, I also had never seen a single jackfruit, which I thought in theory should grow with no issues, and this summer I went to Quinta Jardins do lago (I truly recommend this place to someone visiting the island as their gardens are marvelous) and found a big one full of ripen fruits!

Some pictures from the place:

 

 

 

 

 

I was wondering around checking all the catalogued species and suddenly I see my first jackfruit tree:

The place is not in the warmest zone either, it is maybe around 130 m elevation and further from the sea, compared to my neighbors coconut at the same altitude.

Knowing the histories of Brazil that tell us how dangerous these heavy fruits are when when they fall, I was careful while inspecting it. The tree was full of fruits, but I only took this picture:(

In any case just because apparently there were no jackfruits on the island that does not mean that it is true or that it can't be done. I am convinced you will be able to sprout some coconuts on the island (or maybe someone has already done it), just need to give it time and meeting the right people.

 

More impressive than growing a jackfruit is to know that some people on the island are growing annona muricata, cashew tree and some other exotic topicals. One person I talked to supposedly had these topicals and more in Paul do Mar, like the real Açaí Palm, Euterpe Oleracea! In one of my visits to Paul do Mar I think I found some:) :

 

 

 

Like the jackfruit I had never seen an Açaí Palm before, but from the threads of our Brazilian friends on Palmtalk, they appear to be some juvenile ones. If they were euterpe edulis, I do not think they would be growing in clusters for one? It seems to me the front and lower height ones have some salt, which you don t see as much on the others. This is probably a palm that dislikes salt and Paul do Mar will have some events from time to time at these lower altitudes. Maybe @Alberto or someone else with more experience can comment on these.

I know that many people can't grow this palm in Florida, if these are indeed euterpe oleracea then we are in for lots of surprises in the future when it comes to zone pushing on the island as this one requires an even warmer climate than cocos.

[Pargomad]

On 1/30/2024 at 9:39 PM, Cluster said:

It is a very Mediterranean look for sure, however when you look at the private gardens you see a lot of papayas some cavendish bananas, delonix regias and a few other things less common in the Mediterranean. What happened to Porto Santo that caused the island to lose it's natural vegetation? Indeed I did read a bit while there about the ongoing plantations to reforest the island.

By the way the water quality and transparency (not just the color) is top tier in Porto Santo, you can see really far once underwater.

 

We did some hiking as well and had access to some scenic views.

 

 

 

We still had time to check some viewpoints and some flora during the next days.

 

 

In these last 2 you can see part of the process of reforestation.

 

 

Unfortunately we were in the middle of a storm so the sea was not as pristine:) 

 

In terms of palms what I saw mostly was CIDP and Date palms, besides those, I think I also saw some royals, king palms and of course those coconuts.

 

 

 

Having taken the thermometer I realized that indeed the coast of Porto Santo has some very good lows, if one has access to water I see no problems handling coconuts and something more tropical!

 

Feel free to add these to the Porto Santo thread with the news you find:)

I’ve only been there once back in 2015, and I remember there were a lot of Mediterranean pine trees (pinus pinea and pinus halepensis) and cypresses (cupressus macrocarpa). Before the arrival of the Portuguese, the island was covered with dragon trees and the same vegetation as the lower parts of Madeira island. The first settlers started to use the dragon trees for commercial and pharmaceutical purposes until they disappeared. The rest of the vegetation didn’t survive the import of cattle and rabbits. The island became eroded and semiarid and in the XX century, they imported the species above (mainly pinus halepensis and cupressus macrocarpa) along with other Mediterranean trees to stop the erosion. Fun fact: the inhabitants cultivated date palms and even used them in their diet. 
Like I explained on a different thread, the palm species there are less diverse than on Madeira island: phoenix dactylifera, phoenix canariensis (since the end of the XIX century, subspontaneous now on the island); washingtonia robusta and filifera, chamaerops humilis and syagrus rommanzofiana. You can see some archontophoenix or dypsis but they’re less common. I also saw a lot of papaya trees and some delonix regia there. Porto Santo’s vegetation is actually closer to what we can see in southeastern Spain than to Madeira or the Canary islands. 

[Pargomad]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:33 PM, Cluster said:

Hello everyone, so today I wanted to discuss the possibility of germinating viable coconut seeds in Madeira and also how further can we go in terms of tropical species.

As used to seeing Coconuts at different altitudes on the island and having seen many fruiting coconuts, I have never seen someone germinating one.

The reasons could be several, from the climate not being warm enough, to the massive trimming of the fruits you see in the public and even private ones, or maybe you just need good fertilizer/water to make sure that the fruit will develop properly and become viable one day when fully ripe, on top of this the coconuts are usually solitary which reduces their chance of pollination. I do believe the biggest contributor is the very low sample we have on the island, maybe we have 25-30 coconuts total, from the public to the private ones. I also do not know about the Canary islands, however there seems to be a lot more people there dedicated to zone pushing and producing various tropical seedlings, most likely it is viable to produce coconut seedlings in this region.

In any case, I also had never seen a single jackfruit, which I thought in theory should grow with no issues, and this summer I went to Quinta Jardins do lago (I truly recommend this place to someone visiting the island as their gardens are marvelous) and found a big one full of ripen fruits!

Some pictures from the place:

 

 

 

 

 

I was wondering around checking all the catalogued species and suddenly I see my first jackfruit tree:

The place is not in the warmest zone either, it is maybe around 130 m elevation and further from the sea, compared to my neighbors coconut at the same altitude.

Knowing the histories of Brazil that tell us how dangerous these heavy fruits are when when they fall, I was careful while inspecting it. The tree was full of fruits, but I only took this picture:(

In any case just because apparently there were no jackfruits on the island that does not mean that it is true or that it can't be done. I am convinced you will be able to sprout some coconuts on the island (or maybe someone has already done it), just need to give it time and meeting the right people.

 

More impressive than growing a jackfruit is to know that some people on the island are growing annona muricata, cashew tree and some other exotic topicals. One person I talked to supposedly had these topicals and more in Paul do Mar, like the real Açaí Palm, Euterpe Oleracea! In one of my visits to Paul do Mar I think I found some:) :

 

 

 

Like the jackfruit I had never seen an Açaí Palm before, but from the threads of our Brazilian friends on Palmtalk, they appear to be some juvenile ones. If they were euterpe edulis, I do not think they would be growing in clusters for one? It seems to me the front and lower height ones have some salt, which you don t see as much on the others. This is probably a palm that dislikes salt and Paul do Mar will have some events from time to time at these lower altitudes. Maybe @Alberto or someone else with more experience can comment on these.

I know that many people can't grow this palm in Florida, if these are indeed euterpe oleracea then we are in for lots of surprises in the future when it comes to zone pushing on the island as this one requires an even warmer climate than cocos.

Well, if they can do it on the Canary islands, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in Madeira too. The island's climate has always been underestimated and the Portuguese are not very keen on planting other plants than what they're already used to. The jackfruit is a good example that shows the qualities of the island's climate.

The property shown above is called "my cocoa foot" (meu pé de cacau) and a lot of tropical fruits are grown there, including the Açaí palm. It is said on this website that they already flowered and the mention them as "palmitos-juçara" which actually refers to Euterpe edulis. By the way, they're also growing coconut trees in their private yards. 

https://www.arquipelagos.pt/imagem/vista-do-paul-do-meu-pe-de-cacau-fotografia-de-raimundo-quintal-31-de-agosto-de-2021-paul-do-mar-ilha-da-madeira/

I love your photos. I've never been to the Quinta do lago but they sure have a beautiful garden. I still cringe when I see the Mediterranean cypresses in the middle of the tropical and subtropical vegetation though. That's a very common Portuguese thing to do: mix temperate trees with tropical species. 

 

Edited February 6 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

So we still do not know, if it is Euterpe Oleracea or Edulis then? Both will have similar fruits with the same properties and color, I know Oleracea is not a solitary palm, like Edulis.

I have yet to see an experiment on the Canary Islands where one sees the off spring from a local coconut fruit grown there, but I have heard they do it yes.

[Foxpalms]

On 2/7/2024 at 1:36 AM, Cluster said:

I have yet to see an experiment on the Canary Islands where one sees the off spring from a local coconut fruit grown there, but I have heard they do it yes.

I cracked open one of the coconuts in Puerto de la cruz Tenerife last year and it had water inside and was not deformed. Definitely seems possible to me. 

[Cluster]

45 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I cracked open one of the coconuts in Puerto de la cruz Tenerife last year and it had water inside and was not deformed. Definitely seems possible to me. 

Hello @Foxpalms.

If you do get evidence, could you update us on this?:)

[Cluster]

52 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I cracked open one of the coconuts in Puerto de la cruz Tenerife last year and it had water inside and was not deformed. Definitely seems possible to me. 

Also was the coconut fully ripe and with flesh or just water?

[Kacy]

Someone cracking and eating a coconut in Tenerife. Looks pretty well formed.

And here in Gran Canaria 

 

Edited February 17 by Kacy

[Cluster]

Yeah I had already seen this video and this is what makes me question if they are viable, however I question whether this is necessarily heat related or its due to lack of rain/irrigation. It is very dry in the Canary Islands where he is picking these coconuts.

[IlyaIvanov]

Good news, everyone. After many months of work we were finally able to find and buy a house, which means I will be able to try & experiment with growing a Coconut / other tropical plants on Madeira. As of right now there's still lot's of work to be done. But in the next months I will probably give some updates. The house is not located on the land that I previously talked about (https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/82529-need-your-help-and-ideas-for-planting-cocos-nucifera-on-madeira-island-north)

But at 460m altitude, since it was too good of a deal for us. It's also in Sao Vicente so very close to the land we own at 135m alt (I will also grow plants there).

If you're interested full thread is here: 

[bubba]

These islands have to be one of the most beautiful places in the world! Thank you for sharing!

[IlyaIvanov]

2 hours ago, bubba said:

These islands have to be one of the most beautiful places in the world! Thank you for sharing!

Totally agree! Volcanic islands are a gem, my other favorites are: Reunion Island & Hawaii. coincidentally all of these are Shield Volcanoes 😀

[Pargomad]

Hey guys, I bring some bad news today, they have removed all the coconut trees of the marina. RIP 

[IlyaIvanov]

28 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

Hey guys, I bring some bad news today, they have removed all the coconut trees of the marina. RIP 

That's just sad... I saw them like a few weeks ago. I wish I could at least take one of them to save, now I wonder if they at least gave them to someone or replanted elsewhere...

[Foxpalms]

On 2/8/2024 at 11:29 AM, Cluster said:

Hello @Foxpalms.

If you do get evidence, could you update us on this?:)

I am going there in July for two weeks, I will try and crack a few open. 

[Foxpalms]

Shots of the island of Maderia whilst flying past at 41,000ft. Hopefully one day that coast line will be full of coconuts.

[Cluster]

On 5/14/2024 at 7:51 PM, Pargomad said:

Hey guys, I bring some bad news today, they have removed all the coconut trees of the marina. RIP 

Hello @Pargomad do you know by now if they were replanted somewhere else?

This is what I feared the most when I started raising concerns around once I saw the project for the Marina.

Despite all of my efforts it seems they are gone. I have not found them anywhere else yet.

[Cluster]

On 7/11/2024 at 2:09 AM, Foxpalms said:

Shots of the island of Maderia whilst flying past at 41,000ft. Hopefully one day that coast line will be full of coconuts.

 

Hello @Foxpalms, did you try to collect some of the Canary Island coconuts?

Very nice pictures:)

 

[Foxpalms]

In loro parque in Puerto de la cruz they had viable coconuts there. However when I asked they said they are unable to give them, as they use them feed the birds there. The beach ones in Puerto de la cruz, the coconuts hadn't yet fully finished forming.

These are a few of the ones in loro parque. They were using some to feed the the animals which I saw and the coconut was fully developed with the coconut inside.

I asked in the palmetum however they said they had no coco inside yet.

[Foxpalms]

Wasn't sure if these ones in playa de las teresitas were ready yet.

[IlyaIvanov]

Madeira Garden Update: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/84035-tropical-palms-plants-for-mild-oceanic-climate-zone-11a-madeira-portugal/?do=findComment&comment=1180807

[Pargomad]

On 8/18/2024 at 4:30 PM, Cluster said:

Hello @Pargomad do you know by now if they were replanted somewhere else?

This is what I feared the most when I started raising concerns around once I saw the project for the Marina.

Despite all of my efforts it seems they are gone. I have not found them anywhere else yet.

No... I think they're definitely gone. 

[Pargomad]

So, before, there were around 50 coconut trees on the island, all along the southern coast from Santa Cruz to Paúl do Mar. In the span of 20 years, the number has dropped to 16 known coconut trees on the island... The vast majority of coconut trees that have disappeared were growing in public places or hotels, which once again proves the lack of interest from the Portuguese authorities. The cocos that have survived are mainly the ones growing in private gardens thanks to a few palm lovers.

I know they're going to build a new park by Formosa Beach in Funchal. Hopefully, they'll plant coconut trees and tropical species rather than phoenix or trachycarpus, as they always do.

[Foxpalms]

On 9/15/2024 at 12:18 PM, Pargomad said:

So, before, there were around 50 coconut trees on the island, all along the southern coast from Santa Cruz to Paúl do Mar. In the span of 20 years, the number has dropped to 16 known coconut trees on the island... The vast majority of coconut trees that have disappeared were growing in public places or hotels, which once again proves the lack of interest from the Portuguese authorities. The cocos that have survived are mainly the ones growing in private gardens thanks to a few palm lovers.

I know they're going to build a new park by Formosa Beach in Funchal. Hopefully, they'll plant coconut trees and tropical species rather than phoenix or trachycarpus, as they always do.

Might be worth writing to them.