Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island

[Pargomad]

Wow nice pictures ! On your pictures we can see a lot of archontophoenix cunninghamiana (On the third picture it's a chambeyronia macrocarpa). The blue palm is a brahea armata and not a bismarckia nobilis. For the trees I love those delonix regias, and I can see a lot of casuarinas, a melia azedarach loosing its leaves, an agathis brownii and I can notice a schefflera actinophylla. I wonder if you saw some roystoneas yesterday. I'm looking forward to seeing more photos !

[Pargomad]

I'm sorry I posted my message twice. For the last picture I see common palmtrees : A queen palm (syagrus),a few Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, Howea fosteriana and some dypsis lutescens. For the rest I see some common trees for cultivation like banana trees, papaya, avocados, etc and also decorative trees like an african tulip tree and mediterranean cyprus (cumpressus macrocarpa and semprevirens).

[Cluster]

Thanks Pargomad for identifying a lot of it, I am still very green:). It would be nice if you could identify some of those trees in the respective pictures. Today I have a lot of work, but if I manage I will go look for more pictures:)

[Cluster]

So today there is a bit of everything cocos, trees, other palms and cocos again. Starting with the marine cocos with better lightning!

I like how this one has some nice yellow/orange color in its petiole, I thought usually the dwarves were the ones having different colors:)

It seems not only the dwarf one has mini cocos in development

all together!

[Cluster]

Here is a picture of the trunk of the dwarf one I hope it is not problematic

After I visited the cocos it was time for the new plaza near the sea

[Cluster]

More palms seen today

A queen and a super CIDP

and now.. the new cocos!

[Cluster]

The last coconut in more detail

I can say that this last one has huge fronds but as always you see plenty of them cut

Edited December 23, 2014 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

Thanks for sharing your pictures. I hope you will send more and if you want some spots where you can see some cocos or other tropical palm trees, tell me .

For the cocos I'm really worried because some of them seem to be in bad shape,and also because of the temperatures there: I see that it is 16 degrees there (even colder) meanwhile on the canary islands it's 23 degrees.

For the rest of the trees: I see in the new plaza some young Roystonea regia, then a lot of Phoenix Canariensis, a Washingtonia Robusta, some baby delonix regias, tipuanas tipu, jacarandas, ficus benjamina (the big ones),baby metransideros excelsa, a plumeria, a baby ravenala madagascariensis, a baby strelitzia nicolai and, finally, the ugly old london planetrees behind the cocos on the marina.

For the park on the seafront I see some washingtonias, phoenix canariensis and a phoenix reclinata, a howea, big ficus benjaminas and the london planetrees.

[Cluster]

To be honest Pargomad I think the ones that look worse are the ones that are trimmed to oblivion and not due to temperatures (I may be wrong). The dwarf one looks the best and is supposedly the less cold tolerant. The temperatures have been colder than usual, though not as much as what you say. Everyday the official coast stations reach at least 19 and most days 20. Two days ago we had temperatures of 23 C in Funchal and 24,4 in Ponta do Sol (Lugar de Baixo), all official stations. Nonetheless the Iberian peninsula and Madeira have been having cold anomalies and the temperatures of the continent will go down to almost records (or so the forecast says).

I want to see more coconuts I will try to go to Madalena at some point.

[Pargomad]

Ah ok sorry I see the temperatures of Funchal with my Iphone and there's always like 15 16 written, that is why I was kind of worried, but in fact with 20 degrees who would complain ? Here in Switzerland we had like - 14 for the min. And snow, so enjoy the weather there !

I can't wait to see your new pictures

[Stelios]

Maybe some of these coconut palms don't exactly look like in the tropics but I wish I had them here at home. In these photos I also see that they are over trimmed. Sometimes public planted palms don't look the best. I believe in a private garden more far from the sea and sheltered by the wind they will look even better if given the proper care.

[Pargomad]

Yes like these two cocos in Paúl do Mar in a private tropical garden : https://www.google.ch/maps/@32.755101,-17.2266439,3a,75y,244.79h,88.88t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sPS0l7m87NbUCnnxFflWM-w!2e0?hl=fr

But as said before, the madeirans underestimate the climate and the trees possible to be grown there. On the coast you can see trees from Europe such as the poplars or planetrees (and more...), mediterranean pinetrees, etc. Instead of these species, they could have planted tropical trees like ficus benjaminas, delonix regias or coconut palms. But fortunately Madeira is getting tropicalized with the years, slowly but surely. Almost a century ago, Funchal was like this :The streets were plenty of London planetrees, poplars and other european trees. Now, a part of them were taken off and replaced by Jacarandas, Tipuanas tipu, African Tulip tree, etc. But there are still a lot of those old trees on the island and they don't want to take them off because they are "old trees"... BUT when they had to kill this magnificient Flamboyant and other trees for the new plaza, nobody said nohing :

And besides, the London planetree is believed to be harmful for the health, a lot of people is complaining about that...

Anyway, the madeirans (I guess the portuguese in general) need to pay more attention to what they plant.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Pargomad

[Pargomad]

It's me again, I've got some news. I've found two cocos in Ponta do sol far from the coast, they seem to be in better shape than the ones in the marina: https://www.google.ch/maps/@32.6856981,-17.1069233,3a,49.9y,95.41h,109.66t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1scHCdHKjSDfK-8mn_m3uJMg!2e0?hl=fr

Now a bad news: the 3 cocos in Praia formosa in a hotel have been taken off... Here go some photos of them:

I don't know what happened to them, maybe their death is due to whiteflies (on the Canary islands these insects are killing a lot of cocos. In Santa cruz de Tenerife they "forbade" planting more cocos in the city because of the whiteflies).

I've found another pictures of cocos :

One in front of the hotel regency palace And another one in the Lido :

Edited December 28, 2014 by Pargomad

[Pargomad]

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to plant some cocos on the beach Praia Formosa, imagine this beach full of cocos :

As they do on the canary islands (like La playa de brejamar in Santa Cruz de la Palma):f

Edited December 28, 2014 by Pargomad

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Cluster,

The Madeiran coconuts look awful compared to how they looked in your first photos on this thread. You have got to convince the local authorities to STOP butchering them! I don't think they will ever have mature fruits or even look decent again if they don't stop savagely trimming them. Coconut palms are self shedding palms, meaning that if they are healthy and do not have lethal yellowing, they shed their own old leaves and therefore never need trimming to look their best. Some areas trim off the coconuts on tall Talls and tall dwarfs for safety reasons so that falling coconuts don't kill or injure anyone below, but the ones in Madeira are not tall enough to worry about that and the government could simply put up a few signs around the palms as they get taller that say, "Beware of falling coconuts!"

Also, the palms look like they need some fertilizer. A good organic granular slow release fertilizer in the 8-4-6 or 6-2-4 ratio twice a year in the spring and fall (Mar. and Sept.) would benefit them. Make sure the fertilizer has all the essential micronutrients that palms need like Magnesium, Manganese, Iron, etc. DON'T use chemical fertilizers as these can burn the palms if not watered in immediately, sterilize the soil (killing beneficial microbes), and will pollute the adjacent harbor when rain runoff drips down into the harbor. Organic IS THE ONLY way to go!

As far as your earlier question on when to plant your coconut palm in your yard, plant it in April or May when the weather is nice and warm, that way it will have the rest of spring, all summer, and the fall to get established before the cool weather of the following winter sets in. Plant it at the same depth it was growing in the pot. Never plant a palm or any plant deeper than it was growing in the pot. Mix in some good organic compost into the backfill soil from your yard, fertilize it like I mentioned above, mulch around the palm to a depth of about two inches with a good organic mulch that is safe for palms (here in Texas we should never use a cedar mulch as cedar inhibits the growth of other plants), and then water it in really good. the first couple of weeks after it is planted, water it about every three or four days when it is not raining. Then after that you can taper off on the watering to about once every week and a half to two weeks when it is not raining. In the cool winter months, only water your coconut palm about once every four to six weeks when it is not raining.

As far as the Malayan Dwarf varieties are concerned, there are three, the Green Malayan Dwarf (the most common Malayan grown in Florida and South Texas- we only have a few coconut palms here in South Texas), the Golden Malayan Dwarf with a bright golden orange colored petiole and coconuts, and the Yellow Malayan Dwarf with very bright yellow petioles and coconuts. Oh, and by the way, tell the local authorities to NOT plant royal palms near the shoreline. The don't like salt spray and will probably never look good right by the water. Plant them a few blocks away from the water and they will grow and look much better. There are some palms like coconuts that can easily take salt spray, but many others cannot.

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Cluster,

When mulching your palms, start the mulch about three inches away from the trunk. Mulch is really good for palms and other plants, but it is not good to smother the trunks, so don't put the mulch right up against the trunk.

John

[Cluster]

Hello Pargomad I will tyr to go this week to Madalena/Ponta do sol and try to check for the coconuts there, the projects have been too stressful and barely have time to do much, in any case if all goes well I will be here in February:).

Hey Stelios nice to see you again, yes some of those coconuts do not look great, if it is something to due to temperatures, that I am not sure. I still believe it is mostly due to other factors since most people agree that the dwarf ones are less cold tolerant and yet the dwarf one looks nice even if also a bit over trimmed (look at that picture to the right side before I show the trunk in detail, that one is the dwarf). As for being close to the sea, Madeira usually is not windy even near the sea and when serious wind comes it comes to every place. If you check the first video Pargo posted you can notice it on the beach and looking great, however I a sure further inland is not a bad option as well!

John glad to see you again and thanks for the detailed information. I have some questions though? Did all the coconuts from Praia Formosa disappear and are you sure they were killed instead of being removed by some reason? Also are white flies that serious, can you treat them or are they very hard to deal? It looks like some of the coconuts I showed have some? If I have the time I will go to Praia Formosa and regency to check them. As for the coconut plantation I will sure follow this guide if or when the time comes!

Everyone seems to agree that they are over trimming all the coconuts. I am not sure how, but I will try to contact someone that can pass this knowledge and also to use some fertilizer. Thank you all.

PS: The new coconuts in Ponta do Sol as well as the ones in Paul do Mar are looking good:)

Edited December 29, 2014 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

I found some pictures of the cocos from the hotel on the beach Praia formosa:

I don't if it was dying due to natural causes like the weather or the wind, or due to whiteflies, or maybe it wasn't dying and they might have taken them off simply because they were ugly.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

Hello Pargomad when was this picture taken? I am not sure what happened, none of us knows. I would guess that this place in particular did not see any temperatures below 13-14 C (57f) during this year, so I doubt it is due to temperatures (if they did die which we do not know).

[Stelios]

Hi Cluster

I also agree that the dwarf varieties are more cold sensitive. Over trimming the palms I believe it affects the growth of the tree. I think the more fronts you cut the more nutrients the palm is loosing. From the previous photos that Pargomad posted I see some fronts have leaf burn and in the last photo they trimmed almost all of them maybe for aesthetic reasons ( I hope they don't do it because some room might have obstructed sea view). With the low temps which you mention I also don't believe they could have serious leaf burn. Looking at the washies and date palms around maybe this palm needs fertilizer like John said. It might also needs more water because it reminds me of the Newport Beach coconut which almost died without water.

[Cluster]

I have way too many picture and few time to comment so I will try to say the essential! I will begin with Regency's palace garden which is awesome, before I show the coconut there!

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cluster

[Cluster]

Our first star of the day Regency's coconut!

well it is trimmed but you are getting used to this already on Madeira? Hey at least I told them what you people passed me, maybe they will leave the poor fellow.

After regency's I wanted to go nearby to see the coconuts that were removed in post 173. I did not find any coconut but I found this close:

Definitely not lack of heat that was responsible for the coconuts that were removed.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cluster

[Explorer]

I found some pictures of the cocos from the hotel on the beach Praia formosa:

I don't if it was dying due to natural causes like the weather or the wind, or due to whiteflies, or maybe it wasn't dying and they might have taken them off simply because they were ugly.

That coconut palm is probably sufferring from bad soil. It grows in a sort of container and when there is a lot of ruble and stones left from the building of that hotel with only a bit of top soil above it almost any plant or tree would suffer from that! Always plant in a very good prepaired plantinghole, whatever you plant!

[Explorer]

So today there is a bit of everything cocos, trees, other palms and cocos again. Starting with the marine cocos with better lightning!

I like how this one has some nice yellow/orange color in its petiole, I thought usually the dwarves were the ones having different colors:)

It seems not only the dwarf one has mini cocos in development

all together!

NNice thing about those coconut palms on Madeira is that you can see them growing next to tree like those Platanus x Acerifolia wich we have a lot planted up here in The Netherlands. The combination of the two you would probably never find in real tropics! So it stand a bit for what Madeira is, an Island on the edge of cooler temperate and warmer (sub)tropical climate zone.

Alexander

[Cluster]

So then I went to Ponta do Sol and found your coconut pargo

This coconut is special, for many reasons.. it is 400 (1312 feet) meters away from the sea and it is located at 180 m (590 feet) altitude according to some maps(http://www.mapcoordinates.net/en). I found the owner's wife there and supposedly it has 20 years old or something it went there when it was a person's size. My Garden is 500 meters away from sea (1640 feet) but lower altitude 140 meters (459 feet). I think I should have similar climate?! I am not sure where the 2nd coconut is, but I heard they took some palm sometime ago because it was becoming problematic to nearby house(s). Another special thing about this coconut is that it is not trimmed ehhe.

Anyway the journey has more and I went to Madalena do Mar

Does not looked trimmed either!

She has a young sister nearby!

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cluster

[Cluster]

For the ones following this thread they will remember this last coconut it is a very famous one. For me this coconut is awesome. On this thread we learned how it was growing below two huge trees all this time (full shade) and then one or two years ago they cut one of the trees nearby and it is looking much better!

People trim it to oblivion and it could look much better otherwise, still these fronds were amazing to watch close by.

Look how it tries to escape from the tree now that its right side has sun

And this is what people did to it -_- I was stupid not to take it home maybe I will pass by again if I have the time

And for a goodbye

I have to say this one has the most potential, the fronds just look amazing in my eyes. No wonder, it is located in one of the hottest places on the island, the southwest coast, it is close to the sea with black sand as well. Most likely this zone has never gone below 12-11 C and may be a Tropical micro climate (within the many micro climates Madeira has) in terms of temperatures, as in, averaging 64 f in the coldest month.

With that said happy new year everyone:)

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cluster

[Cluster]

Alexander I agree with you the soil theory seems also a possibility. Madeira's climate is very special, calling it subtropical does not describe it well! For example even in Florida Key West extreme low temperatures can get below the ones on Madeira's record low. On the other hand it is not easy to go past 30 c as well:), though in the southwest coast it is probably a bit easier. The altitude, the northern side, the dry side, the wet side all of this gives the island many micro climates for almost every taste. You can see these coconuts and snow at the same time and grow a lot of plants and trees.

Happy new year!

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

Ahhaah You have almost found all of the cocos on the island, thanks for sharing your picture, but by the way I think there is another cocos under the trees just next to the cocos on the beach in Madalena do Mar, I can see what I think to be its trunk and leaves, am I right?

I'm also worried about the future of these coconut trees on Madeira, there are fewer and fewer of them, some years ago there were like 30 40 cocos on the island now they are just more or less 15. Someone has to promote these unknown palm tree otherwise Madeira won't be the northernmost place where cocos can be seen anymore!

Edited January 2, 2015 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

Oh my god I think you are right and I did not see it! What do you think about this set of pictures? Did you find any of the coconuts in good shape? I am trying to promote coconuts on the island and telling people all the time to let them shave themselves. Also if the 20 years old coconut is living at 180 m then who knows maybe I can have one as well:)

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

I have some new cocos for you Cluster, these ones are in Canico de baixo, one in the hotel inn&art and the other one in a private garden next to an hotel.

I'm not sure if they removed this one in the private garden on the left on the picture, I hope not...

This one is a little one in Funchal in an hotel:

Here's another little one in an hotel in Lido funchal:

That's it, I think I showed you all the cocos of Madeira (24) and Porto Santo (3).

Edited January 2, 2015 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

We still need to see them with a fruit, we need to get more dwarves or more coconuts together for pollination . From all the coconuts gathered which are looking better in your opinion and also did you notice those palms almost dead near the place where they removed the cocos in praia formosa?

[Pargomad]

For me : the cocos in the marina (not all of them), the ones in Madalena and Paul do mar (for what I see on street view), the two cocos in Regency palace.

Yes I noticed it and I saw a lot of palmtrees like those ones on Madeira in some places, I think it's due to the soil (first I thought it was due to the wind that burnt the leaves).

Someone should write or talk to the municipality of Funchal or some other villages on the south coast and promote the cocos nucifera as a first choice for planting on the beaches or seafront.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

For me the ones looking the best is the dwarf one in the marina (by the way did you notice any more dwarves besides this one in my pictures? I don't distinguish them 100% still:) ) regency and Madalena/Paul. I do think the Madalena one has the most potential the fronds just look more graceful, however it is very trimmed.

[Pargomad]

I can't distinguish them I just know they're coconut trees ahah. I'm not expecting a beautiful coconut tree as we can find in the tropics, but at least like those from the Canary islands which have a similar climate with Madeira.

I forgot to mention the cocos in Porto santo which are looking really good, even better than some of the madeiran cocos (for the pics I saw on Instagram).

Edited January 2, 2015 by Pargomad

[Cluster]

I remembered the Porto Santo ones but I did not see them close. I think some of our cocos are actually looking nice, not as nice as the good ones in the tropics. I believe the one in Madalena could get a more tropical look, now that it has some sun also did you see the one on post 142 the one that disappeared (1:05) that would be the best one so far? I a thinking that those coconuts in the marine do not have much soil perhaps?

[Pargomad]

Yes it was the best one with large and beautiful leaves almost like the good ones in the tropics, but I don't know what happened, the only thing I know is that I saw a picture of this cocos "dead" without its leaves just the trunk, maybe it was due to the overtrimming, don't know.

[Cluster]

I am just going to say if there are coconuts doing fine at 180 m (590 feet) altitude for 20 years then something wrong is being done to the ones that die with the best conditions. The next time I come to Madeira I will be on true vacations and will try to find a way to reach people that are responsible for all these public coconuts. I still want to have my own coconut at some point I just hope it can look decent enough here:)

Edited January 3, 2015 by Cluster

[Pargomad]

Well, at least the "slaughter" of these coconut trees is not due to, what I thought to be the climate or the temperatures, but because of the madeirans... I always thought that Madeira was very limit for the cocos but with the example of Ponta do sol at 180 m, I understand now that if more than 50 % of the cocos of the island have been taken off for the past 10 years, it is due to human actions.

In the past 10 years they have removed a lot of cocos for example in 2000 there were 26 cocos in Funchal (in the avenida do mar), 11 in the marina, 12 in the seafront and 3 in the park. In 2006 they removed 6 cocos and rebuilt a part of the avenida adding some phoenix canariensis, in 2009 they went on with this and took 6 off (some of them were quite tall at least 10 meters) and replaced them by phoenix canariensis and some poplars (but fortunately these poplars were removed with the new seafront and plaza replaced by roystoneas). Now in 2015 there are only 8 in the marina and 2 in the park... and i'm afraid they will soon remove some of the survivors...

In Funchal (all the city) there were like 36 cocos, now there are only 15. Most of them might have been removed because of aesthetical motives or because of new constructions. And if they keep overtrimming them, they will look uglier and likelier to get removed. The cocos nucifera is a natural heritage of Madeira since the archipelago is the northernmost place where we can see this symbol of the tropics, quite close to Europe. Instead of planting them like the Canary islands they kill them...

And last thing, Cluster did you see any cocos at the entrance of the regency palace (post 173) ? I hope they didn't remove it too !

Edited January 4, 2015 by Pargomad

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

I agree with you, I suspect people are just not informed or realize how blessed they are with the weather there or maybe because in continental Portugal you are used to other less demanding palms. Hopefully one day they will have more. What you see mostly is Phoenix canariensis, queen palm, royal palm and i believe some foxtail ones.

Madeira island has many micro climates, including some warmer ones than Funchal, I suspect many people could just have a coconut in their gardens without the need of extra care.

Coconuts grow quite hard on Madeira. That's why are only a few and they only grow good in a few places.

They grow hard in the zones with minimum averages above 15º because isn't quite enough warm on the winters. In Canary Islands there are coconuts in all islands, obviously the most ones are on Tenerife and Gran Canaria Island. But in places like Fuerteventura with 100-150mm of yearly precipitations they grow good. That's because winters are quite warm, with daytimes of 21-22ºC. In Funchal for example, I searched now the climate for those next days and I am seeing 18-12, 18-13, 18-13... those aren't the proper temperatures to have a coconut palm tree

I think in Madeira, is more beautiful to grow mango, papayas, and a some tropical palm trees like the Roystoneas grow very very good. But it's not just the place for coconuts. That's why are only only a few samples of them and most of them aren't very very confortable with the winters, with looking at some of your posted photos before you can see some of them suffering

For example those are samples of Fuerteventura coconuts that i've seen on the internet. Fuerteventura like I said before has ~120mm precipitations per year.

Obviously they get all the water they want hehehe. Look at them, even fruiting, which in Madeira is not possible. There are warmer places and places where the coconuts grow even better in Canary Islands, but like you see those aren't like those:

Here are ones from La Palma Island, with "Caldera Del Taburiente" on the background, a 2.426m moutain on it's peak. Look at the contrast, coconuts and snow! This is so beautiful

Edited January 6, 2015 by pRoeZa*

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

I went short on time to edit the another one.

I wanted to say: "but like you see even those in Fuerteventura aren't as healthy as like those:

"

which are grown on their natural soil and natural habitat"

PS: I readed your last post with the altitude and coconut trees. If I remember well, there were some coconuts growing at almost 400m in a island, I don't remember well if was Tenerife or Gran Canaria. But I remember that I've seen some photos years ago on the spanish forums. If you start to search with Street View it's sure that you will see more than one growing at 350-400m altitude in both Tenerife and Gran Canaria.

But that means a lot of searching inside Street View.

Edited January 6, 2015 by pRoeZa*