Ranking Hybrid Palms in Terms of Cold Hardiness

[Scot from SC]

I know various threads exist on this site looking at different hybrids and discussing their cold hardiness. I would love to start one thread where people contribute temperatures their hybrids have experienced and the extent of the damage exhibited. Please list your zone and area if it is not in your avatar since a zone 8 here in South Carolina is a bit different than one in Oregon. Pictures are always welcome too. Thank you in advance.

Here is a list of ones I would like to see commentary on:

(please add to list if you have information)

1) Butia X Jubaea

2) BJ X B

3) BJ X J

4) BJ X Q

5) J X B

6) J X Q

7) B X Q

8) B. Paraguyensis X Queen

9) Yatay X Queen

10) Yatay X Jubaea

11) Any Phoenix hybrids

12) ???

Here is a close thread that discusses hybrids a bit: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/31636-lets-talk-about-patrick-schafers-x-breeds/

[Scot from SC]

I have a J X B that I bought three years ago from Jungle Music as a strap leaf size palm. Here it is now. The growth rate is very rapid; it grows much faster than a Butia odorata. Its trunk is getting fatter than a Butia of similar age. Mine was exposed on the coldest night of the Polar Vortex in January 2014. We got down to a low of 10 F. I live in South Carolina, and my zone is 8a.

[sashaeffer]

Very cool, Hope Phil offers that size again as I might be interested.

[Ben in Norcal]

Are you sure that is a JxB? It looks more like a BxJ, at least on my phone.

[Scot from SC]

I thought the same thing Ben, but Phil assured me that it is. I even mentioned it to him in an e-mail that I sent to him a few weeks ago. He stated that "The hybridizer has blue and green Jubaeas, so that probably has something to do with it." I do know that its growth rate and the fatness of its trunk at such an early age are strong indicators. I probably will get a green version of a J X B just to have one, but I am taking Phil at his word.

[Ben in Norcal]

I thought the same thing Ben, but Phil assured me that it is. I even mentioned it to him in an e-mail that I sent to him a few weeks ago. He stated that "The hybridizer has blue and green Jubaeas, so that probably has something to do with it." I do know that its growth rate and the fatness of its trunk at such an early age are strong indicators. I probably will get a green version of a J X B just to have one, but I am taking Phil at his word.

Hmm. I didn't notice the color as it happens - I was talking about the form. It looks just like my BxJ, and nothing like my JxB.

[Scot from SC]

How old is your J X B or B X J? Do you have pictures of either? I know it does have Jubaea blood in it, and it was sold to me as a J X B, but I guess time will tell. Did you buy both of yours at Jungle Music? How would you compare growth rates and hardiness?

[Ben in Norcal]

See this thread for pics: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/43388-my-jubaea-x-butia-f2-hybrid/

My BxJ (what I think it is) came from Golden Gate Nursery in Richmond CA. My JxB F1 is from Patric Schafer directly, so I am positive about the provenance of that one. The BxJ is probably going at 2x/3x the rate of a nearby Butia yatay. The JxB is only in ground a couple of weeks.

Hardiness I can't comment on since both should be safe here by a couple of zones. Our recorded historic low wouldn't come close to phasing these guys.

[tank]

My BJxQ is less hardy than any of my mules. Still pretty hardy, but for me it has been less hardy than any of the cocosoid hybrids on your list. I do not have B. paraguayensis x queen so I do not know how hardy this plant is.

[Palm crazy]

I have two JxB f2 both came from P.S. and one is green the other is blue. Both seem to grow the same. I would say you should be lucky you got a blue one since they are really speculator looking palm. My one BxJ f2 leave are much more flat and wider looking .

Edited October 28, 2014 by Palm crazy

[Scot from SC]

Thanks Palm Crazy. Do you think mine looks more like a J X B?

Thanks for the input Tank!

[Palm crazy]

Thanks Palm Crazy. Do you think mine looks more like a J X B?

Thanks for the input Tank!

I’m no expert but if Phil saids it is JxB than I would agree it is.

[dalmatiansoap]

I belive its all "cat in the sack". One can never be sure what will you get when it come to hybrides.

[Scot from SC]

I sometimes wonder about that too. I know that the mother palm contributes a greater percentage of her genes if you will, but I always wondered how much on average. Maybe I am being too simplistic in my line of thinking, but I assumed that the mother palm would contribute at least 60% of a hybrids blood if you will. Perhaps it just depends on the time the pollen is applied, the type of palms involved, etc.

[Cikas]

I sometimes wonder about that too. I know that the mother palm contributes a greater percentage of her genes if you will, but I always wondered how much on average. Maybe I am being too simplistic in my line of thinking, but I assumed that the mother palm would contribute at least 60% of a hybrids blood if you will. Perhaps it just depends on the time the pollen is applied, the type of palms involved, etc.

Hmm 60%.

If you're talking about DNA from cell nucleus, it is just as in humans and all other animals and plants. The offspring will inherit 50% its genes from father and 50% its genes from mother. It is always half and half.

If you are talking about mitochondrial DNA or mDNA, it is again just like in humans, all other animals and plants. The offspring will inherit all mDNA from mother, nothing from father.

Hybrids are not uniformed. Every hybrid is different. Because every hybrid inherit different parts of parent species DNA. Every individual hybrid will have different hardiness and appearance.

It is true that hybrids that have the same parent species, but different specie as mother, tend to look more like mother. That is because of mDNA. It is same in animals and all other plants.

[Scot from SC]

Thanks Cikas! I knew how it worked in animals, but as far as plants are concerned, well I admit that I was not sure! Now if we could just get the specific traits we wanted and created hybrids that way...haha. Is there a Dr. Frankenstein out there in the palm world?

Edited October 28, 2014 by Scot from SC

[Cikas]

Only way to get uniformed hybrids would be cloning. Choosing individual hybrids who inherited the best characteristics of the parents. And then cloning them.

And only way to get perfect hybrid ( with the best characteristics of both parent species ) would be genetic engineering. In old fashion way it is all gambling when it comes to the hybrids. We never know what we will get exactly.

So it is impossible to put together an accurate list of cold hardiness when it comes to hybrids. Because individual hybrids that have same parents can have completely different hardiness. It's all gambling.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Cikas

[_Keith]

My JxB had a spear pull in 2010 while my mules were unfazed. I was beginning to wonder about its true cold hardiness, but this past winter which was just as bad it sailed through, so I am feeling more optimistic.

[Scot from SC]

I am glad that your J X B survived!

I wonder if we could at least make a temperature range for each type of hybrid?

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I was down at a guys house last month north of Houston who owns many hybrids and has them growing unprotected in his property. He is in a goofy area in the national forrest that gets far colder than the USDA zone indicates. He said he saw 12 degrees this year and one of his 6'OA BxJ died, while the other lived. His 4-5' JxB's were completely unharmed. The pure Chileans were unharmed, even those in pots. His two large mule palms (roughly 14' overall) next to his house completely defoliated along with his CIDP but all grew back. He said that the mule palms regularly defoliate even when it is is in the upper teens

His pindo's, sabals, trachy's all unharmed. His 1 gallon t, campestris were completely unharmed as well.

[_Keith]

I can say for sure that my JxB is good to a 19 degree wet freeze with many other minor freezes in the same winter. Pretty sure it will go colder, but that is all of the personal experience I have and hopefully will have, lol.

[DoomsDave]

Joseph!

Welcome aboard!

How about some pictures of those Texas palms from the goofy area?

We love pushing envelopes . . . .

[SailorBold]

I've never seen these hybrids in person. What amazes me is how the fronds feel like plastic and the leaflets rough texture. I plan on adding more of these hybrids in the future... and hopefully a jubaea.

I sort of don't want to push the limits on my palms because they are new- so I am not sure I will be able to add hardiness info. I plan to not use heat.. only keep them dry when the temp goes below 20- hell I don't even know if that's a good idea-

[_Keith]

Here the advice would be plant well watered at the soil level, canopy dry. Until recently advice was to give a high potassium fertilizer several days before, but that has fallen out of favor in recent years, experts saying it causes no harm, but also does no good and is just a waste of money. My personal thoughts are that since palms do not go dormant, to keep them fertilized as there root systems become inefficient in cold weather. I have come to believe, and it may just me, that the best thing is to keep the plants growing and pushing out damaged tissue before infection can set in. I will be experimented with that this winter.

[SailorBold]

I agree with you. I also plan on doing the same and fully fertilized my palms recently..maybe fertilize lightly in late January.

Fertilizer questions have been in the back of my mind so I even added some aluminum sulfate to aid in nutrient uptake.

I'm going to mark my spears to see if these hybrids continue to grow during colder weather... should be neat to see.

[Alicehunter2000]

My newest hybrid is a (JxB)xS from Mark Heath, who got it from Tim Hopper who got the original JxB from Merrill or Ed Brown (I think?). Here is the 15 page topic link....

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/4789-jubutyagrus/

Will be protecting it most likely this winter.

[Ben in Norcal]

My newest hybrid is a (JxB)xS from Mark Heath, who got it from Tim Hopper who got the original JxB from Merrill or Ed Brown (I think?). Here is the 15 page topic link....

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/4789-jubutyagrus/

Will be protecting it most likely this winter.

Are there any more available, do you know David? That is a hybrid I would love to have.

I just spent way too much money today on a couple of "Coconut Queens" from Phil. I have a smaller one but could not resist the 15g size he has in right now.

[Alicehunter2000]

Not that I know of....Mark just had the one palm and had run out of space. I was going to wait and post a picture of it as it broke two fronds in transit. It is a 3-5 gallon size with several adult leaves. Still to early to tell what its gonna look like but Mark is convinced it will be a beast. In Call your best bet for a similar hybrid would be Patrick as no one has heard from Tim in a while.

[Ben in Norcal]

Yeah, I'm meeting Patric today to pic up another Yatay mule and a BxPJC. I already have 5-6 other Patric creations. I should have an interesting yard one day!

[Alicehunter2000]

BxPJC is the next one on my list as well

please post yours when you get them

[Ben in Norcal]

Picked 'em up this morning! Sitting in the greenhouse for now. I find it such a PITA to post pictures on this site...I'll need to work myself up to it.

[_Keith]

Picked 'em up this morning! Sitting in the greenhouse for now. I find it such a PITA to post pictures on this site...I'll need to work myself up to it.

Well, at least put them on FB, if not here. Doesn't get any easier than doing it there.

[Ben in Norcal]

This is a test upload from Facebook. This is one of Patric's local BxPJC.

[Josh76]

[Flow]

[Ben in Norcal]

Here's another test. My new Patric acquisitions - Yatay mule on left, BoxPJc on right.

[SailorBold]

So awesome! I would not try a BxPJ in my climate (I wish).. but I would attempt a yatay mule from some of the info I have been reading...

They are going to be very nice additions.

[Ben in Norcal]

So awesome! I would not try a BxPJ in my climate (I wish).. but I would attempt a yatay mule from some of the info I have been reading...

They are going to be very nice additions.

Thanks man! It's my second Yatay mule. Now I just gotta figure out where I am going to shoe-horn these guys in.

By the way, guesses on the age of the large BxPJC above?

[_Keith]

Best give that yatay mule some room. It is the fastest growing hybrid on my property. It got big in a hurry and I gave it no special care.

[Ben in Norcal]

Best give that yatay mule some room. It is the fastest growing hybrid on my property. It got big in a hurry and I gave it no special care.

Excellent. Lots slower than the BxPJC according to Patric, however.