Why aren't there more old palms around?

[_Keith]

It could be that the US was a much colder place coming out of the 1800s and into the early 1900s. Don't believe this map, read some books by folks like David Fairchild, and about the early Florida nurserymen like the Reasoners. This is not the place it used to be, when it comes to weather for growing palms.

Note - I thought this was general enough to not put in the weather thread, but the Mod will move it as he sees fit. Also, let's try not to turn this into a Global Warming Thread. This is about fascinating old picture showing the history of conditions, not about the causes.

Got any turn of the century before last to post in this thread? Put em up. I have a couple, but will take a bit to find them.

[waykoolplantz]

Love the old photos of Miami Beach with coconuts.

There are some older hand colored MB canvas photos that were recently moved to our new family biz location. I'll try to stop by and grab some pics of them

[Zeeth]

Here are some pics from Palm Beach in 1905

http://www.shorpy.com/node/7838?size=_original

http://www.shorpy.com/node/7685?size=_original

Notice the cold damage on the coconuts (that winter was down to 26 F). I think it has more to do with the freak cold events than an overall trend in weather, but who knows! Coconuts are scarce in my area away from the ocean (they only live long term in good microclimates once you go more than a few miles inland), but Robert Gamble indicated in 1841 that they were grown as a commercial crop here. Jamaican talls tend to do better here than Malayans, but was the difference that great? There were a few Malayans growing next door to the Gamble Plantation that were killed in 2010, which was the exact area that they used to be grown commercially!

Another one for Florida would be lightning strikes. The oldest and tallest palms essentially become lightning rods, which doesn't spell too good for long term survival in the lightning capital of the united states!

[_Keith]

One of the biggest game changer freezes as I recall was in 1898.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Blizzard_of_1899

[Gonzer]

The lack of diversity in many public plantings is due to narrow-minded officials who designate an approved plant palette to choose from. These are assembled to provide the most worry-free landscapes(?) at the lowest cost. In the old days many cities were not afraid to challenge the status quo in regards to plant selection, especially palms.

Nowadays we have architects who draw up plans that smack of good ol' Martha Stewart Gardening 101. There is no room for rebels anymore. I oughta know. Plus, as Carlsbad has done recently, many once lush landscapes are now maintained by outside mow+blow outfits whose depth of horticultural knowledge would fit on the head of a pin. Old-timey gardens had folks who cared and were aware of the physiological needs of the plant material. You will not get that from a contractor based organization.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Gonzer

[Xerarch]

One of the biggest game changer freezes as I recall was in 1898.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Blizzard_of_1899

If someone didn't bring up that winter of 1898-1899 I was going to, it still holds many records, also the winter of 1894-1895 was bad.

In some ways I wonder if the climate isn't colder now than it was pre 1800's. There are reports of Royal Palms being native far north of their native stands today. Citrus was being grown commercially in Charleston. The great freeze of 1835 killed 100 year old Citrus trees in St. Augustine. To me that means that there hadn't been a citrus killing freeze in St. Augustine for 100 years prior to that. In today's world, the commercial citrus industry has abandoned St. Augustine and moved farther south due to freezes.

[Firepalm]

The lack of diversity in many public plantings is due to narrow-minded officials who designate an approved plant palette to choose from. These are assembled to provide the most worry-free landscapes(?) at the lowest cost. In the old days many cities were not afraid to challenge the status quo in regards to plant selection, especially palms.

Nowadays we have architects who draw up plans that smack of good ol' Martha Stewart Gardening 101. There is no room for rebels anymore. I oughta know. Plus, as Carlsbad has done recently, many once lush landscapes are now maintained by outside mow+blow outfits whose depth of horticultural knowledge would fit on the head of a pin. Old-timey gardens had folks who cared and were aware of the physiological needs of the plant material. You will not get that from a contractor based organization.

Well said! Pretty ridiculous at this point that more cities/municipalities aren't planting Parajubaeas. So well suited to SoCal and more drought tolerant than Queens, Kings and others that are commonly planted. Not sure why there aren't more large old palms around, but hopefully this generation of folks will leave quite a few around for the next generation.

[_Keith]

Well, I was referring more to the occasional biological reset buttons that nature sends, how they were more prevalent in the past than they are today, and how that has altered the landscape we see as the legacy of the past, not necessarily the municipal landscape. But I find it hard to argue with your statements. In general, the latest trend is to plant low maintenance plants that will live through water ever nature sends, aka, natives. I think more and more, going forward it will be up to the homeowners to stretch the boundaries, and they should expect more and more government and HOA interference on what they themselves can plant, driven by water demands more than anything, but certainly the anti-invasive, aka anything not native, crowd is always looming as well. As people crowd the planet, more and more, I think they will overshadow nature's new more friendly (warm) palm friendly climate. It will be all about what uses the least resources.

[Ed in Houston]

One of the biggest game changer freezes as I recall was in 1898.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Blizzard_of_1899

If someone didn't bring up that winter of 1898-1899 I was going to, it still holds many records, also the winter of 1894-1895 was bad.

In some ways I wonder if the climate isn't colder now than it was pre 1800's. There are reports of Royal Palms being native far north of their native stands today. Citrus was being grown commercially in Charleston. The great freeze of 1835 killed 100 year old Citrus trees in St. Augustine. To me that means that there hadn't been a citrus killing freeze in St. Augustine for 100 years prior to that. In today's world, the commercial citrus industry has abandoned St. Augustine and moved farther south due to freezes.

The winter of 1899 was a warm tropical breeze compared to the winter of 1784! In 1899 the the Mississippi river froze as far south as Cario Illinois compared to 1784 when the Mississippi froze past New Orleans and was spewing ice bergs into the gulf of Mexico! Now that is what I call hitting the reset buttom. My hypothesis is that 1784 is when Sabal Mexicana froze out of south central Texas instead of the hypothesis of them disappearing from being harvested.

http://www.geologyinmotion.com/2014/11/bardarbunga-and-so2-emissions.html

Ed in Houston

[Jim in Los Altos]

Keith, There are certainly many areas here in the Bay Area with century old palms and older. Same goes for Southern CA. The lack of lightning is one reason. Palms were extremely popular in Victorian era gardens and many of them planted then are still around and healthy. The picture above is San Jose last summer. There are CIDPs here and there that are taller than the ones pictured.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

It could be that the US was a much colder place coming out of the 1800s and into the early 1900s. Don't believe this map, read some books by folks like David Fairchild, and about the early Florida nurserymen like the Reasoners. This is not the place it used to be, when it comes to weather for growing palms.

Note - I thought this was general enough to not put in the weather thread, but the Mod will move it as he sees fit. Also, let's try not to turn this into a Global Warming Thread. This is about fascinating old picture showing the history of conditions, not about the causes.

Got any turn of the century before last to post in this thread? Put em up. I have a couple, but will take a bit to find them.

Lol Keith ,

I checked the climate stats, and based on 130 year old records ,That map simply isn't accurate.

One sure fire clue is citrus, it was produced commercialy in the san Joaquin valley back in the 1880's .

Donno many many commercial orange groves in zone 7.

[Dave-Vero]

The eastern US is plagued by rare but devastating freezes. The 1980s brought several to Florida, with the culminating and most damaging one just before Christmas, 1989. I was in Jacksonville, which got an ice storm that shut the streets and I-95 for a day or two. My Butias did fine, as did some singularly hardy bromeliads in the yard. Citrus growing, which had moved southward previously, moved once again. The Florida Turnpike northwest of Orlando was once lined with groves; now you have to go to Lake Wales. In Brevard County (Atlantic coast, Cocoa Beach, Merritt Island, Melbourne), native tropical trees and shrubs at the beaches died, including gumbo-limbo. Some of that was probably a matter of the plants having been components of coastal shrublands or low-canopy hammocks (forest), where the thick, nearly continuous tree canopy provided some shelter for trunks and lower stems. Gumbos left as individuals or planted as specimens, croaked. Same with planted royal palms and even queens.

A disease called lethal yellowing had destroyed coconuts and some other palms en masse farther south. The disease has sort of disappeared since then and coconuts, resistant or otherwise, are back. Now, Washingtonias and queens are dying of fusarium disease, and a disease similar to lethal yellowing is killing date palms (and other Phoenix) and native Sabal palmetto.

Maybe 40 years ago, plant ecologists became interested in "disturbance" as a major shaper of vegetation. Some of that came from the Caribbean, where forests are almost always in some stage of recovery from the last hurricane. In Florida, it's hurricanes, freezes, and severe fires (or lack thereof).

[_Keith]

It could be that the US was a much colder place coming out of the 1800s and into the early 1900s. Don't believe this map, read some books by folks like David Fairchild, and about the early Florida nurserymen like the Reasoners. This is not the place it used to be, when it comes to weather for growing palms.

Note - I thought this was general enough to not put in the weather thread, but the Mod will move it as he sees fit. Also, let's try not to turn this into a Global Warming Thread. This is about fascinating old picture showing the history of conditions, not about the causes.

Got any turn of the century before last to post in this thread? Put em up. I have a couple, but will take a bit to find them.

Lol Keith ,

I checked the climate stats, and based on 130 year old records ,That map simply isn't accurate.

One sure fire clue is citrus, it was produced commercialy in the san Joaquin valley back in the 1880's .

Donno many many commercial orange groves in zone 7.

Well, in the 1930s accuracy was not what we have today for sure. And who could ever put an accurate zone on Cali anyway with a zone change every few blocks, lol.

[Xerarch]

I don't even think that that map means the same thing that we think it means given the current USDA map

[_Keith]

I don't even think that that map means the same thing that we think it means given the current USDA map

Ssssh, you are spoiling all of the fun, lol.

[John Case]

To answer your question more directly; it seems that the older you look for, the fewer you will find. With all of the variable this thread has discussed, it all boils down to the aging process.

If you look for older humans, the fewer you will find, Over the years even some healthy ones, who could have lived to an old age may have ben hit by a bus, experienced flooding and fire, earthquakes and the like. In these cases, genetics mean very little. The oldsters, when interviewed as to their reason for such a long life vary from people who ate little to those who smoked and drank to excess throughout their lives. In this case, genetics seems to mean a lot.

I suspect that is similarly true in palms as in humans.