Phoenix andamanensis (Andaman Island Date Palm)

[reeflingo]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here on palm talk. I was directed here by my honours supervisor as I sent her a photo of a palm that my father has in his garden and she was unable to indentify it. Intially, my father and I both thought it was the traditional Date Palm (Phoenix dactylifera) as the person my father received the plant from said it was. However, upon closer inspection, it appears that it is not P.dactylifera, but another species within the Phoenix genus.

A quick google and search through the literature revealed that it could potentially be the rare Andaman Island Date Palm (Phoneix andamanensis). As it potentially might be this species, I thought it would be worthwhile contacting people who are familar with palms, particularly rare palms. If it is indeed this rare species, I am not sure what I should do about it, or who I should contact.

I have done a small botanical inspection on the species (although palms are not my area of expertise), and it does appear to be leaning towards P.andamanensis. However, I cannot be sure either. I have included some pictures. It is over 15 years old and is growing in sandy loam soil and doing quite well.

Thank you all.

[Phoenikakias]

It looks to me like a 100% dactylifera! If, however, proves to be indeed an andamanensis, I will be disappointed by its very common appearance. Are leaflet tips pungent and is there any whitish wax or tomentum on underside of leaflets or rachis ? How much of the entire leaf-length (restricted only to older fully developed leaves that still atached to the stem at an angle of 90 degrees or more) is taken up by the armed part?

Edited January 22, 2015 by Phoenikakias

[JMBreland]

I think that's dactylifera. There's some degree of variation within the species and there are named cultivars with recognizable characteristics. Also a juvenile and an adult can look somewhat different, so it's difficult to tell for certain which cultivar as a juvenile if we are going by foliage alone. Once it flowers and sets fruit, you'll be able to know the species and cultivar with a good degree of confidence.

[DoomsDave]

reeflingo:

Welcome to Palm Talk!

Your palm, as you note, does look like a regular edible date.

However, your plant is 15 years old; a regular date would be huge in that time, say, about 3 meters of trunk or more. How tall is your palm? It looks quite small.

Here's a link to Palmpedia, founded by one of our beloved moderators, which has pictures, too. http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Phoenix_andamanensis

In light of its small size, I think there's a chance your palm could be a P. andamansis.

Phoenix are dioecious, meaning males and females are on separate individuals. If you want seed, you'll need to find a "mate" of the opposite sex. Do you have a picture of the flowers? We probably could tell you if it's a male or female.

Welcome aboard and you started off with a most interesting post.

[JMBreland]

reeflingo, where are my manners? Welcome to the forum!

I didn't see that you said it's over 15 years old. Where in Australia are you located? Can you describe the climate there? Like Dave said, a dactylifera would be fully-grown with a few feet of trunk at that age in warm climates with regular precipitation.

[Phoenikakias]

Now this is what I call a careful and thoughtful approach! A dacty with inadequate water regime may grow very slowly. The article in Palmpedia describes andamanensis as very similiar to rupicola, only this specimen shares imo the least similiarity with rupicola. So if it is not a dacty, it should be a hybrid with dacty as one parent.

[palmaddict]

I think it may be Phoenix acaulis. I have one growing quite well and got it from someone who states that it was at least ten years old. It only has less than a foot of truck. In some regards it is a miniature dactylifera. A bit softer looking. I have three robust dactylifera growing right near and you can clearly tell the difference.. They have five feet of trunk and are at least two foot across as their bases.. A nice palm if you are looking for something dacty/canariensis in character but without nearly the size.

Patrick

[DoomsDave]

I think it may be Phoenix acaulis. I have one growing quite well and got it from someone who states that it was at least ten years old. It only has less than a foot of truck. In some regards it is a miniature dactylifera. A bit softer looking. I have three robust dactylifera growing right near and you can clearly tell the difference.. They have five feet of trunk and are at least two foot across as their bases.. A nice palm if you are looking for something dacty/canariensis in character but without nearly the size.

Patrick

I don't think reel's palm is an acaulis; they have much coarser leaves, more like a CIDP in miniature.

[reeflingo]

Phoenikakias,

Thank you for the reply. I haven't been to my father's house for a few days. I will venture over there in a few days so I can answer your questions.

I think that's dactylifera. There's some degree of variation within the species and there are named cultivars with recognizable characteristics. Also a juvenile and an adult can look somewhat different, so it's difficult to tell for certain which cultivar as a juvenile if we are going by foliage alone. Once it flowers and sets fruit, you'll be able to know the species and cultivar with a good degree of confidence.

JMB,

Thank you. I didn't think of it being a cultivar species of dactylifera. That's a good point you make. I believe it is an adult now as it is greater than 15 years old. I'm not sure how tall a dactylifera would be by then. I know they are slow growing. I will take a picture of it when it flowers!

reeflingo:

Welcome to Palm Talk!

Your palm, as you note, does look like a regular edible date.

However, your plant is 15 years old; a regular date would be huge in that time, say, about 3 meters of trunk or more. How tall is your palm? It looks quite small.

Here's a link to Palmpedia, founded by one of our beloved moderators, which has pictures, too. http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Phoenix_andamanensis

In light of its small size, I think there's a chance your palm could be a P. andamansis.

Phoenix are dioecious, meaning males and females are on separate individuals. If you want seed, you'll need to find a "mate" of the opposite sex. Do you have a picture of the flowers? We probably could tell you if it's a male or female.

Welcome aboard and you started off with a most interesting post.

Doomsdave,

Thank you for the welcome!

I would have thought that a regular date palm would be quite tall by 15 years old. It's only 1.5m tall with about a lead span of the same. It is quite small. Trunk is about 0.4m of wide. I'm thinking that maybe the growing conditions (if indeed it is dactylifera) may not be suitable. However, in saying that, it is looking very healthy.

I did come across that link that you did mention. I have yet to use the botanical description to verify whether it is or not. However, by going just by the pictures, it looks very much like adamanensis.

No photo yet of it flowering. I will get onto it when it does though.

reeflingo, where are my manners? Welcome to the forum!

I didn't see that you said it's over 15 years old. Where in Australia are you located? Can you describe the climate there? Like Dave said, a dactylifera would be fully-grown with a few feet of trunk at that age in warm climates with regular precipitation.

Thank you JMB

I am located north of Brisbane, Queensland. It's subtropical here with warm temperatures, humidity and adequate rainfall. The soil is sandy loam in nature. Quite greyish. It was well suited to the the previous vegetation of Eucalypt forests. Beforehand though, it was pine forest plantation. We are about 5-10kms from the ocean, so the conditions could well favour andamanensis.

Now this is what I call a careful and thoughtful approach! A dacty with inadequate water regime may grow very slowly. The article in Palmpedia describes andamanensis as very similiar to rupicola, only this specimen shares imo the least similiarity with rupicola. So if it is not a dacty, it should be a hybrid with dacty as one parent.

I was thinking it may be rupicola too. A hybrid, yes maybe!

I think it may be Phoenix acaulis. I have one growing quite well and got it from someone who states that it was at least ten years old. It only has less than a foot of truck. In some regards it is a miniature dactylifera. A bit softer looking. I have three robust dactylifera growing right near and you can clearly tell the difference.. They have five feet of trunk and are at least two foot across as their bases.. A nice palm if you are looking for something dacty/canariensis in character but without nearly the size.

Patrick

palmaddict,

Thank you.

I might look into acaulis. I'll get back to you,

[Mike in Nelson]

Hi reeflingo. Are you doing a thesis on plants/palms?

[Phoenikakias]

If it is an adult it has at least to bloom. Has it ever bloomed?

[reeflingo]

Hi reeflingo. Are you doing a thesis on plants/palms?

Hi Mike,

My thesis is on subtropical heathland post-translocation. Heathland species are my favourite, however, I love all plants palms included.

If it is an adult it has at least to bloom. Has it ever bloomed?

I have never really paid any attention to it seeing as it is at my fathers place. I will be paying closer attention now though!

I will get back to the other post once I do a thorough botanical inspection of the plant. Hopefully then I can add a bit more information so that we can get to the bottom of this species!

Cheers

[Josh-O]

Welcome to palm talk Reeflingo