Everyone in the Southeast... Check your spears!

[smithgn]

After this very wet winter we've had so far, it's not surprising that I've had spear pull on 2 of my L. Nitida's and 1 of my P. Sylvestris'. All 3 are still seedlings, although I would have never seen it coming for my Nitida's. A deep a green color and very healthy looking, I would have never guessed. I've brought them all inside for any below freezing temperatures for most of the winter but of course left them outside in the rain. Bad idea. Check your spears!!!!!!

I'm a bit depressed, but I'm holding out hope. I just poured hydrogen peroxide down the hatch on all 3. Going to post some pics tomorrow. You'll be amazed at how healthy they look, but for now it's quite the contrary.

[mnorell]

In my experience Livistona nitida is not a particularly stalwart species in Gulf-state winters. I have two at my garden in Natchez...bought them ten years ago thinking they were the hardiest, most resilient Livistona in cold conditions, etc. Wrong. Spear-pull nearly every winter. Not anywhere near as fast as advertised. One of the two is a complete wimp, defoliates almost every year and throws up stunted leaves until mid-summer. the other is fairly strong. But it just does not compare with L. saribus, L. decora or L. chinensis...all of which may defoliate below about 23F (as they ALL seem to), but push out even after long freezes into the upper teens. I think this one is better in drier climates and can stand the long winter-spring chill of, say, California, but they don't like the occasional period of really cold weather that the south and southeast can experience. Mine are still alive, just disappointments considering the things that have been written about this species.

Spear-pull is not as horrible as many think. I just pour Hydrogen peroxide into the crowns of such specimens in the spring. Generally they grow out of it. In bad cases I cut down until I can debride all the nasty rotting dead tissue and leave only good, white tissue. I cut at an angle so water is shed and it has never done me wrong...unless it was an impossibly maladapted species for the climate. You just want to keep the rotting tissue away from the apical meristem...and a pair of clippers and a bottle of H2O2 will take care of that!

[Alicehunter2000]

It's been spear pull city for me this year....all smaller stuff that was put in over the summer. My large nitida has done very well through the nasty winter last year and has faired better than Washingtonia's as far as leaf burn this winter. Maybe when it gets size it will perform better. Spear pulls on my JxBxS, Eric Mule and 5 Dypsis decipiens have been especially disheartening. Holding out hope they will recover. With peroxide of course.

[_Keith]

No spears here yet, but I bet if I tug on those alfies in a week or two, out they will come.

[Ben in Norcal]

How cold are you guys experiencing? Is it as bad as last winter for you guys?

[_Keith]

How cold are you guys experiencing? Is it as bad as last winter for you guys?

Well, I can only speak for Louisiana and say "Oh Lord no." Could have done without that little bip to 24, but otherwise its been a great winter. Only my most tender stuff is groaning a bit, but guessing no long term damage done. But I confess to hoping for a super mild one so things could recover even more from last year's horror show.

[Ben in Norcal]

Good to hear. Let's hope it is over, here and there!

[Alicehunter2000]

As Keith said.....almost a normal winter....we had that weird November shot to the mid 20's with heavy wind then heavy frost the next night. That's what I think did the most damage as I was out of town and the small stuff didn't get protected. We then had an unusually cold shot to 21 early this month....very dry and windy....managed to protect some smaller stuff but it burned some things anyway. Last year was super brutal. They shut down the I-10 interstate and all of our bridges due to ice ..... I've never seen that happen.....and that was not even the "Polar Vortex" from weeks before that dipped to 20. ..both of those freezing events lasted for days.

Let's hope I didn't just jinx us.

[Ben in Norcal]

I'm really surprised by all of your spear pulls at those temps, David - on the hybrids. Must be the wet?

[Scot from SC]

Last winter we hit 10 F, and we did once this winter. My only hybrid, a J X B, showed no damage either time. I did not protect it this year, and last year my frost cloth flew off during the night...and we had bad wind and wintry mix to boot. My other palms were all fine, but I don't have anything too outrageous for my zone 8...yet!

[NorthFlpalmguy]

I think too it is more of the combo of wet and cold as it normally rains then a cold front moves through. I had some washy robusta seedlings I forgot to cover and they are all nicely toasted except a few from that Nov frost..

[Palm crazy]

Sorry to hear about all the spear pulls, now you guys no what its like to live in the PNW, but still not as wet there as here, LOL! L. nidita had spear pull this winter at 21F twice, one if Nov. and Dec. Cordyline hybrids also had spear pull which is really weird for just 21F. Nothing was protect this winter and the last freeze we had was Jan. 2nd. So hopefully no more this winter. I’m sticking with Butia and Jubaea for now on. All my mules are totally fine and have grow a little over the winter, its been 5-10F warmer than average here pretty much all winter. Spring plants are starting to grow again in late January.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Palm crazy

[SailorBold]

Man sorry to hear that..not insulting anyone but is it possible you pull too hard on the center?

I haven't had any spear pulls and my BJXB IS actually still growing and I think the other hybrids are too. The JXB is opening a leaf.. but the spear feels opened not sure if that is normal.. Butia and everything else feel solid. Maybe it will show up later or im not tugging hard enough.

December was above normal until the last week and now we are about normal to a tad below average. Something like 4.5 inches of snow at the airport.. I suspect we got slightly less where I am... (so far)...

If a palm has spear pull what are the chances it will make a full recovery?

[smithgn]

Here are some quick pictures I took of my L. Nitidas. The first one is the "runt" of the two.

My bigger and more robust Nitida.

The hole of despair

mnorrel- Thanks for the advice and insight... I've always read the contrary but so far it looks like these 2 Nitidas wont differ much from the ones you have. Then again, if mine do survive this set back, they probably don't stand a chance with the 8A winters I receive here. I didn't realize till after the spear pull that these Livistona's are more suited for a dryer area. I always thought the general consensus was that most of the cold hardy Livistona's love the water.

So far, I've added peroxide once a day to the crown of my plants that have been affected. Any rule as to when to stop? I have a trunking Butia that had spear pull in it's first winter, last years epic tradgedy of a winter. I added peroxide once and it came back fine. I'm eager to see how the L. Decora does. I have very small seedlings in the greenhouse right now, so it'll be a while till I battle test them. L. Australis wont make it in my area, I'm fairly certain.

David- I saw in a thread where you said your Mules had spear pull. That stinks to hear about your D. Decipiens... I remember when you had a thread this past summer as you were putting them in ground. Hopefully they bounce back. I'd love to see them get over this episode and mature in your area.

Palm Crazy- I always thought that the SE gets MORE precipitation, it's just that out your way, it just stays wet for a longer period of time. More rainy days for you as opposed to the relative downpours that we have here. Either way, yeah, I don't like all this wet business!

Sailor- I'd like to know the same thing concerning the chances of a full recovery. So far, it seems the chances are pretty good if you treat it with peroxide. The earlier you catch it the better, too. As far as how hard I tug, It didn't take much. It was pretty gentle, but the spear had give so I kept pulling and out it went. The bottoms of the spears had a brown color to it, so it definitely wasn't a normal, healthy spear that I pulled. I know for larger palms, you have to give it quite a tug. There's a 7 or 8 foot W. Robusta that the owner of Penny's Palms has in his back yard and after last years winter, he had one spear that pulled on one Robusta, and the other he said he would tug with just about all of his might and it stayed firmly planted. It wound up recovering nicely.

Overall for me, this winter has been very wet and about average as far as cold goes. I got down to 12 in my yard. I live in a cold area in my part of town since the other areas only got down to a reported 17 degrees per weather channel and accuweater.

[Alicehunter2000]

Would not peroxide daily. The peroxide turns to water and a daily dose keeps water in the crown constantly. All your trying to do is kill the nasties and then let it dry out. Maybe once a week or every two weeks would be adequate (I think?)

Not sure about recovery rates....but some palms recover better from spear pulls than others. If you have a spear pull on a Rhaphis sp.....had almost zero luck with recovery of that stem. However, Phoenix species seem to recover great for the most part. Mules seem to have a good record of recovery. Dypsis decipiens recovery rates are a complete unknown to me?

Most spear pulls are on new growth (hence spear pull, not frond pull) fronds that have already opened and hardened off are not as susceptible for sure. Even had Podocarps and Loquats get burned on new growth. We have warm weather here that encourages growth in winter then pops it with a harsh freeze. Plants don't know if they are coming or going.

[Sandy Loam]

I have had no cold damage to any of plants this year up here in northern Florida, fifty minutes from the Georgia border. Of course, my bananas, canna lillies and allocasias have done their winter wilting, but that was to be expected. My two livistona nitida are probably the last thing I am worried about. It is things like pandanus, archontophoenix, thrinax, clusia, schleffera actynophylla, etc that I more scared of losing to cold. Winter is almost over and my record low for this year was 28.8 Fahrenheit. That is not so different from last year or the year before, but last was much worse for totally different reasons in my region. It wasn't a year of record cold temperatures last year, but it just seemed to be cold all the time. As a result, I had a lot more battered-looking palm fronds by the end of February last winter. I don't have any cold-damaged fronds this year. Even my 3 majesty palm fronds (ravenea rivularis) look fine. A few quick cold blasts which stay 22 F or above are fine. It seems a lot harder on palms to undergo series of several cold nights between Dec - Feb at 33, 31, 29, 35, 28 F, etc. Also, even after a cold night in a normal year, we are used to having 70 F in the afternoon with lots of sun all winter. That just didn't happen last year very often. The sky was often grey, drizzly, cold....not a normal winter. There was a feeling of being somewhere farther north, likely because the low-dipping Polar Vortex created that very effect.

[Sandy Loam]

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Edited January 29, 2015 by Sandy Loam

[smithgn]

David- I stopped adding peroxide as you said and the next day after I stopped, I noticed the next smallest spear/frond has grown since I pulled the smallest spear. As for my "runt" L. Ntidia, there has been no activity. All of the other fronds are mature and there was no other emerging spear except for the one I pulled. We'll see what happens... Any news with your palms that had spear pull?

Sandy Loam- I always envisioned Gainesville being a solid 8B zone, but wowsa! Those temperatures you've had this year are borderline Orlando winter temperatures. Good for you! What kind of Archontophoenix do you have planted? When the temps (hopefully not anytime soon) do dip into the teens, do you plan on protecting them? I know once those things get especially large it'll be near impossible. Also, is inland Jacksonville (the city) warmer than your area? I know Jacksonville is borderline 9A in most parts, but part of the city is 8B.

[Alicehunter2000]

No news...will know when it warms up...got a positive attitude for now but spring can't come quick enough.

Gainesville is kind of a strange area. They benefit from being further east and south some years like last year. At the same time they are not quite far enough east or south to put them firmly into 9a .....Sometimes it is worse there due to being away from the coast.

I would still consider it 9a for the most part and look to what people grow there as to what can grow up here (further north and west but close to the coast)

[Sandy Loam]

Hello SmithGN.

The type of archontophoenix I am growing are A. Cunninghamiana, and I have no business planting them in Gainesville. They don't belong here, and the next 18 degree cold blast that moves through here is going to kill them, unfortunately. That may not happen for another couple of years, but it is surely coming at some point. However, apparently Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana have done fine for over a decade just east of us in Palatka, FL - PalmTalk link: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/36080-east-palatka-florida-archontophoenix-cunninghamiana/

No, I don't plan to cover anything ever again. What dies from cold is just going to die, although I may have to cover things for another couple of years since I just lost a chunk of my overhead canopy which was a HUGE help in protecting the plants beneath (Neighbor just removed my canopy; she owned the forest which our realtor mistakenly promised was a "protected easement" behind our lot). Now I need a quick plan B to produce some instant overhead canopy. The loss of overhead canopy is really a huge game-changer in a borderline region like mine. It's like going from Leesburg to Tallahassee in seconds. That thick canopy bought me at least half a zone, and now it's gone.

Actually, USDA's website says that I am in 8b, but the rest of Gainesville is 9a. That doesn't make sense because, according to USDA, zone 9a is a few minutes away from me --- by foot. The areas just west of town are definitely a solid zone 8b. The more you are in town, the more you are zone 9a.

I don't know about the comparison with Jacksonville. People have told me that Gainesville gets slightly colder, but whenever I check the temperatures at night, it seems that Jacksonville is colder than we are. Our daytime highs also seem to be slightly warmer, but I really haven't made a scientific comparison. Yet, oddly, Brooksville, FL is the same climate as Gainesville. On a map you will see that it is level with Orlando, so there is no rhyme or reason to the variation.

[SailorBold]

I see now..thanks for adding pictures. Yeah the robusta I lost I just left alone until mid summer.. but by then with the no new growth the entire trunk was rotting. Maybe it could have been saved if I pulled the spear out.

It looks as though the worst is over and hopefully it will be a quick jump into spring.. I will be interested in hearing what happens with peroxide treatments.

[smithgn]

David- I'm with you, spring can't get here fast enough. March usually is a good respite from winter but still a very bi-polar month for us up here. What effect does being further east have? I know if you're kind of south and east of the Appalachians, that blocks some of the bite from the cold northwesterly winds but is there anything else I don't know about? North Florida is a strange area to me for the most part, but I still envy y'all position and like it was comically noted in another thread... You all will have 25 degrees + temperatures and then have that one night it dips super low and severely injures or kills more of the tender stuff in the garden.

Sandy Loam- It's funny how being close to a body of water can allow you to leapfrog zones. Obviously being near the ocean does wonders but I've always wondered how big of a difference being near a river or even a pond could make? Testing the limits of an Arch. Cunnighamiana will be fun to watch- I applaud you for trying. Who knows? It might last longer than you think.

Dangit! I feel like it was not such a good idea to cut down several medium sized trees in my backyard to make room for future palms. I did leave the Pine trees... Hopefully you can skirt by during the last bit of winter and have all spring and summer to contemplate how to fill the void.

Interesting. I've always envied the relative positions of Jacksonville and Gainesville. Despite being in North Florida they still are surround by oceans on both sides and still can grow a multitude of things that far north in Florida. I always like keeping an eye on temperatures in North Florida since its like the "big brother" relative to my area. Closest relationship around me is probably with Charleston. Gainesville is a good bit further south yet Charleston is on the water which equates to about the same temps, I'd say. One thing though, is that Gainesville seems to almost always be JUST below that jet stream when it dips.

[smithgn]

Sailor- I suppose it's good to go ahead and remove the spear since at that point, it's not even connected to the palm anymore. But yeah no problem with the pics. I thought I'd share since this is my first time really encountering this and just in case anyone else hasn't, they can see this and understand a little better hopefully. I don't know about you, but it always seems as if February is the coldest month. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel but February can be a real PITA!

[905palms]

I don't know about you, but it always seems as if February is the coldest month. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel but February can be a real PITA!

Tell me about it.. -11C up here. However, the rays of the sun are definitely warmer, as the sun is sitting at a higher angle. Yes, more proverbial light at the end of the tunnel.

[smithgn]

Absolutely. The sun is noticeably higher in the sky and you get hints of warmth that makes it feel a little better. But yep, still roughly a month longer to go.

[Sandy Loam]

I agree. From South Carolina down to North Florida and along the northern Gulf Coast, we're definitely in the clear once we get to March 1. I have looked at the 15 day forecast which covers half of that period, but it's useless. If we're getting a cold snap, they never tell until 3 days before because the weatherman never knows until then.

SMITHGN, yes, probably Charleston is a reasonable comparison for winter low temperatures, but I do think our afternoon highs are warmer in winter. Even Savannah, although close to Charleston, seems to have warmer daytime temperatures than Charleston. And I would be surprised if Charleston is in the oak pollen season yet. My car was covered with the yellow stuff when I went out this morning. It's officially spring on January 31, I guess.

But Florida is crazy. I don't know anywhere else where I can drive through 40 degrees F in just 4 hours. I just did it twice this week, in fact. Late at night, I went from 35 F in Gainesville and arrived in 69 F in Fort Lauderdale four hours later. Sometimes the difference is even greater. It can be 28 in Gainesville and 74 at the same time in Key West, at least at 7:00 am. That's probably why there are so many North Florida posters on PalmTalk, but not so many from southern Florida, considering that there are 5.5 million people in the greater Miami sprawl alone. Down in the south, they don't worry about cold-damaged palms the way we do up here in the north.

[_Keith]

Here in So Louisiana, our average last frost date is mid February, but the old times would never trust that. They would say March 15 is a safe time to put tender stuff in the ground. Farmers here would tell you wait till the soil reaches 70 degrees.

[Alicehunter2000]

So Keith, what you are saying is to wait till March 15th...lol

[_Keith]

So Keith, what you are saying is to wait till March 15th...lol

Oh no, I am a risker. Tomatoes will go in on Feb 15th. I keep a 2nd set of seedlings in the wings if I get burned and then give them away later. As for palms, I will wait for the soil to reach 70 at least, unless I get tired of looking at them, that is. Bottom line, I am totally unpredictable when it comes to planting.

[smithgn]

SandyLoam- Agreed. Charleston gets hot, but not that kind "hot". That's drastic. I can drive almost 2 hours and be at the coast and possibly 10 degrees warmer, but nothing like what you describe lol Florida is wacky. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it's a tad more fun to push the envelope and grow palms that, by popular belief, "don't belong." In south Florida, you can get just about anything to grow with no challenge whatsoever. No controversy= not much to talk about on palm talk. But an Archontophoenix in North Florida? Yes please!

Just havin' a little fun with our tropical pals down south

Keith and David- Isn't the magic number 60 degree soil temperature? March can still get wacky for me, but normally, or not in my lifetime at least, there won't be any sub 25 degree nights in March. Below freezing temperatures happen, of course. The earliest I've planted is April 2nd, when I put my C. Microspadix and C. Radicalis in ground.

Does anyone use Daves Garden last frost/first freeze date calculator?

Here's mine, for kicks:

Each winter, on average, your risk of frost is from November 7 through March 31.
Almost certainly, however, you will receive frost from November 26 through March 13.

You are almost guaranteed that you will not get frost from April 18 through October 20.

Your frost-free growing season is around 221 days.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/freeze-frost-dates/

[_Keith]

Was not familiar with Dave' calendar. Here is what it spit ou for me. Btw- it just shows how abnormal last year really was.

Each winter, on average, your risk of frost is from December 4 through February 17.

Almost certainly, however, you will receive frost from December 28 through January 17.

You are almost guaranteed that you will not get frost from March 21 through November 8.

Your frost-free growing season is around 290 days.

[Sandy Loam]

Ha ha. Keith, you have a better growing climate than I do, apparently. It said that my frost-free growing season was only 266 days.

Just for kicks and to test its accuracy, I plugged in the zip code of a hotel I'd stayed at in Fort Myers Beach, FL. Its said: "Well, it looks frost isn't a problem for you in Fort Myers Beach, FL, USA. Luck you!"

[Sandy Loam]

Actually, for the sake of curiosity, I entered Tarpon Springs, FL (gulf coast) and Daytona (Atlantic coast). It said that both of those places are also 100% frost-free all year. It surprises me that places so far north in Florida would be totally frost-free, especially Daytona. Now I am pondering the accuracy of the davesgarden.com frost calendar.

[Ed in Houston]

The Dave's Garden site shows a 50% probabilty of 32 after February 8th at my palce. The minimum so far this year has been 31F. The 10 day WU forecast shows no extreme conditions expected through the 11th with about normal temps. The door for another freeze is closing rapidly. Low 40s and windy here this morning after another cold front came through last night.

Ed in Houston

[_Keith]

As for current weather no showing 35 tomorrow morning, staying chilly and then a light freeze at 32 on Friday morning. That southern stream best wake on up next week as predicted. I am tired of this bit.

[Alicehunter2000]

32-34 predicted tonight.....will probably cover poolside tenders....but not much else.

[smithgn]

Really now? Daytona Beach? Yeah, that's a little odd- not sure of the accuracy of that. I'm not sure where DavesGarden gets it's temperatures to come up with these statistics, probably just an error, though. Either way, its fun to play around with.

Keith- I was NOT expecting to see those kinds of results! This definitely does show how bad you've had it the last few years... Crazy.

I really hate these cold fronts, I'll be getting into the 20's tonight. What is this southern stream you speak of, Keith and will it impact my area? They were initially calling for snow out my way this coming Friday!

[_Keith]

A little good news. The predicted low of 32 on Friday morning is now up to 37.

[Palm crazy]

Nothing but rain, rain, and more rain here….http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/l/USWA0318:1:US This is at the airport which is colder at night.

Last frost here Janurary 2nd and I want to keep it that way!!! Good luck to you guys in the South.

[smithgn]

Dude, no way! Palm crazy, how many frost days do you average in a year?